"Fighting Against The Church"

[Stacy Oliver]

Whichever makes you feel better.

The fact that my dad baptized me 10 years before I was born of God has nothing to do with whether or not our current leaders are true prophets.

Answers and testimony don't come by logic or blanket answers or genealogy, they come by the power of the Holy Ghost.

You can't argue with my logic, so you just say, "Logic is stupid." Way to go.

Just say you disagree and move on

Why do you posit a position but refuse to consider the logical extension of your own position? Do you just come here to troll?

[Zathura]

Whichever makes you feel better.

The fact that my dad baptized me 10 years before I was born of God has nothing to do with whether or not our current leaders are true prophets.

Answers and testimony don't come by logic or blanket answers or genealogy, they come by the power of the Holy Ghost.

You can't argue with my logic, so you just say, "Logic is stupid." Way to go.

Just say you disagree and move on

Why do you posit a position of you refuse to consider the logical extension of your own position? Do you just come here to troll?

Nah, I come here to remind Mormons that a person is born of God through faith in Jesus Christ and a broken heart.
Spiritual rebirth is not a result of your faith in Thomas Monson. The fact that a Mormon baptizes you does not give you knowledge that Thomas Monson is a true prophet. Only the Holy Ghost can show you the Thomas Monson is a true prophet.
Spiritual rebirth is a result of your faith in Jesus, and the only purpose of a leader is to point you to Jesus and to help you be begotten of Jesus.

[Stacy Oliver]

Nah, I come here to remind Mormons that a person is born of God through faith in Jesus Christ and a broken heart.
Spiritual rebirth is not a result of your faith in Thomas Monson. The fact that a Mormon baptizes you does not give you knowledge that Thomas Monson is a true prophet. Only the Holy Ghost can show you the Thomas Monson is a true prophet.
Spiritual rebirth is a result of your faith in Jesus, and the only purpose of a leader is to point you to Jesus and to help you be begotten of Jesus.

It is not your position that makes you a troll. It is your refusal to consider the logical of you position, and saying "Logic is stupid," that makes you a troll.

[Zathura]

Nah, I come here to remind Mormons that a person is born of God through faith in Jesus Christ and a broken heart.
Spiritual rebirth is not a result of your faith in Thomas Monson. The fact that a Mormon baptizes you does not give you knowledge that Thomas Monson is a true prophet. Only the Holy Ghost can show you the Thomas Monson is a true prophet.
Spiritual rebirth is a result of your faith in Jesus, and the only purpose of a leader is to point you to Jesus and to help you be begotten of Jesus.

It is not your position that makes you a troll. It is your refusal to consider the logical of you position, and saying "Logic is stupid," that makes you a troll.

I never said logic is stupid, I frequently tell people to use logic. You put words in my mouth and effectively killed this conversation.
This is no longer productive, and I'm done here
I disagree with you, but I'm still your brother in Christ and wish the best for you

[Stacy Oliver]

Nah, I come here to remind Mormons that a person is born of God through faith in Jesus Christ and a broken heart.
Spiritual rebirth is not a result of your faith in Thomas Monson. The fact that a Mormon baptizes you does not give you knowledge that Thomas Monson is a true prophet. Only the Holy Ghost can show you the Thomas Monson is a true prophet.
Spiritual rebirth is a result of your faith in Jesus, and the only purpose of a leader is to point you to Jesus and to help you be begotten of Jesus.

It is not your position that makes you a troll. It is your refusal to consider the logical of you position, and saying "Logic is stupid," that makes you a troll.

I never said logic is stupid, I frequently tell people to use logic. You put words in my mouth and effectively killed this conversation.
This is no longer productive, and I'm done here
I disagree with you, but I'm still your brother in Christ and wish the best for you

You tell others to use logic, but refuse to use it yourself, which makes you a.....

[gfnelson]

How can you sustain the leaders without believing them?

[brlenox]

I have questions for Stahura and rewcox.

Stahura: can you make me a sincere case FOR the brethren?

rewcox: can you make me a sincere case for approaching Christ W/O the brethren?

I realize this is not addressed to me but it so well encapsulates the false premise that has created so much misunderstanding that I am going to comment. It is not a mutually exclusive process that to accept Christ means to do so without sustaining the brethren. In fact, that is what Ephesians 4 is all about. They are given as part of the process of coming unto Christ. They have specific roles, duties and capacities that Christ provided as PART of the plan of salvation to assist. It is a false standard to establish that the process is complete without the chosen servants of the Lord somewhere in the mix and prominently at that. These servants are those that fit the description given in Ephesians, who are called by proper authority.

The problem isn't sustaining leaders. I've never said that we shouldn't sustain leaders, I've said many times that I sustain my leaders and I read their talks frequently.

The problem is this false doctrine that says "you can't be born of God without first having a witness that the current church leaders are true prophets"
This is false, and damning.

It is interesting that you choose to respond in the defense fashion that you have chosen. My point was addressed specifically to the question that Black Raven asked. My point is the basis for the question is a false paradigm. It is wrong. It presupposes that we can separate a process into its separate components and the process will work in whole if an individual chooses only to act on pieces of the process.

That you chose to defend your perspective when it was not even challenged speaks to issues that you have with you. I think you recognize in yourself the same things that others recognize. You may have accepted Christ as a part of the process but we can see that you have struggled with how to reconcile sustainment of the brethren with a sense of feeling like you are relegating the Savior to a lessor position. This false sense of what it means to keep the Savior as your focus has been one of the most damning doctrines promulgated by Denver Snuffer and all over this forum. It creates personal confusion and a fear that Christ will think that you are not committed to him if you don't keep reinforcing over and over and over and over and over and over and over (20x more) that the brethren are not your focus because they are not the perfect being that your eye is focused on.

Even more confusing to you is another misunderstanding. You are failing to understand that being born again is, as Neil A. Maxwell stated, "only the beginning of becoming like Christ." No person can be born again unless he or she at least gives some credence to the words of the prophets, which is one of the primary principles of the lectures on faith. Now the expectation is that you will learn as you progress how to recognize Christ in all of his servants including yourself.

Now you claim that this is false and damning If someone believes "you can't be born of God without first having a witness that the current church leaders are true prophets". I can tell that you are eager to learn but you seem to be running faster than you are able and lack in understanding in so many areas especially as to who should be a part of the process to guide you down the path after you begin the process of becoming as Christ. If you only are born again and you do not ever gain the testimony of the leaders of this dispensation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints then you are damned. Yes, you are damned. You have achieved a testimony of Christ but have been deceived concerning his servants and that which they speak in his behalf and fall most probably into this category:

D & C 76

75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.

Those in this category are those that merit a terrestrial existence. It is a kingdom of damnation and I have shared the quotes to sustain this thought too many times on this forum already. To be at the beginning of a process of moving towards perfection is not adequate to receive all that the Father has. Thus it might be prudent to start recognizing that what you have stated over and over about being born again is not the end of the process. You speak of it as if it defines the whole process and, I’m sorry, but there is a long ways to go and somewhere in that mix you are going to have to quit caveating your sustainment of the brethren with this or that weak disclaimer. You say words of sustainment from time to time and that somehow makes you feel like you are covering the distance but it is obvious and we can feel it that you have not jumped this hurdle. You do not sustain the leaders of the church in the sincere and converted fashion that must be achieved to continue the process of advancing to where Christ is.

[Zathura]

I know my state before God, who are you to judge me?
You keep bringing Denver up, yet these are things that the Holy Ghost revealed to me long before I ever heard of him, in addition to that, these are things that were taught to me by my Mission President and through modern leaders from the past 60 years whom I sustain.

You compare me to apostates because my opinion differs from yours?
I sin differently than you?

I've never stated that being born again is the end of the process, it's the beginning of the process, that's why it's so sad that so many are deceived into thinking they've been born again when they haven't.

You post a scripture suggesting that I've been blinded by the craftiness of men, yet I've only followed the Spirit and I'm being told over and over to follow and submit to men, that's incredibly ironic.

I will not be damned if I end this mortal life without ever having received a witness from the Holy Ghost that Thomas Monson is a true prophet, and Thomas Monson himself will tell you that. I will continue seeking answers about this until the day I die, about each leader.

I do give credence to modern leaders words, I frequently post the words of Elder Bednar and Mckonkie to explain what it is to be born of God. I have posted many quotes from President Benson and Kimball.

In the end, I appreciate your comments much more than most people on this forum, even though you usually correct me. You have pure intentions and have the charity to reach out and attempt to help others. I appreciate that.

[gfnelson]

In the end, it takes a lot of sentences to try and convince LDS members to not follow the leaders.

Brelonox has a good point: just follow the brethren regardless

[Zathura]

In the end, it takes a lot of sentences to try and convince LDS members to not follow the leaders.

Brelonox has a good point: just follow the brethren regardless

you won't find one place where I attempted to persuade others not to follow leaders. Look through 1000+ posts and you will not find this.

Don't bare false witness.

[gfnelson]

In the end, it takes a lot of sentences to try and convince LDS members to not follow the leaders.

Brelonox has a good point: just follow the brethren regardless

you won't find one place where I attempted to persuade others not to follow leaders. Look through 1000+ posts and you will not find this.

Don't bare false witness.

Smh. This is where you end up if you go down this path folks.

Where did I ever even say that about you?

You are closer to baring false witness than I am by insinuating that I did.

Wake up.
Realize that you are making almost no sense.

Now breathe and to relax.

How removed from reality does a guy have to get before he starts accusing people casually posting on internet forums of 'baring false witness'

Relax, and stay on the good ship Zion.

[dewajack]

Some things to consider.

56 And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins.

57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.

Who does The Lord say here are those that shall abide the day? For those that abide the day, what have they taken as their guide? Is it another person?

Again, The Lord states,

44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.

Who are people suppose to trust in terms of their salvation?

What causes an honorable man to become deceived? Simple, it's the philosophies of men mingled with scripture. How can people spot these philosophies of men? It's important for all of us to check ourselves to see if we're buying into things that aren't backed up in scripture.

[Zathura]

In the end, it takes a lot of sentences to try and convince LDS members to not follow the leaders.

Brelonox has a good point: just follow the brethren regardless

you won't find one place where I attempted to persuade others not to follow leaders. Look through 1000+ posts and you will not find this.

Don't bare false witness.

Smh. This is where you end up if you go down this path folks.

Where did I ever even say that about you?

You are closer to baring false witness than I am by insinuating that I did.

Wake up.
Realize that you are making almost no sense.

Now breathe and to relax.

How removed from reality does a guy have to get before he starts accusing people casually posting on internet forums of 'baring false witness'


Relax, and stay on the good ship Zion.

haha, goodnight brother

[gfnelson]

I see a trend coming from these types. Marc statura etc.

They say something strange and unfounded. Such as, GbH contradicted scripture on 60 minutes or Careful you are baring false witness.

Then when probed, or asked how, they scatter. Like shadows.

Like I am the one expected to provide evidence they are wrong?

Senseless.

And i predict: the pattern will continue.

[gfnelson]

An example for laughs:

Dragons are real. They really are. They live on the moon.

Whats that? You say I'm wrong? Prove it.

Oh you say the burden of proof is on me?
Whatever brother I don't want to argue. Blessings and goodnight.

[kennyhs]

Seems to be quite a controversial subject.I tend to hold back my opinions in fear of retrabution.

[Zathura]

Some things to consider.

56 And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins.

57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.

Who does The Lord say here are those that shall abide the day? For those that abide the day, what have they taken as their guide? Is it another person?

Again, The Lord states,

44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.

Who are people suppose to trust in terms of their salvation?

What causes an honorable man to become deceived? Simple, it's the philosophies of men mingled with scripture. How can people spot these philosophies of men? It's important for all of us to check ourselves to see if we're buying into things that aren't backed up in scripture.

+1

[brlenox]

I know my state before God, who are you to judge me?
You keep bringing Denver up, yet these are things that the Holy Ghost revealed to me long before I ever heard of him, in addition to that, these are things that were taught to me by my Mission President and through modern leaders from the past 60 years whom I sustain.

You compare me to apostates because my opinion differs from yours?
I sin differently than you?

I've never stated that being born again is the end of the process, it's the beginning of the process, that's why it's so sad that so many are deceived into thinking they've been born again when they haven't.

You post a scripture suggesting that I've been blinded by the craftiness of men, yet I've only followed the Spirit and I'm being told over and over to follow and submit to men, that's incredibly ironic.

I will not be damned if I end this mortal life without ever having received a witness from the Holy Ghost that Thomas Monson is a true prophet, and Thomas Monson himself will tell you that. I will continue seeking answers about this until the day I die, about each leader.

I do give credence to modern leaders words, I frequently post the words of Elder Bednar and Mckonkie to explain what it is to be born of God. I have posted many quotes from President Benson and Kimball.

In the end, I appreciate your comments much more than most people on this forum, even though you usually correct me. You have pure intentions and have the charity to reach out and attempt to help others. I appreciate that.

Not an accusation but an education. It is telling that you interpret what you hear according to words that others have used in undermining the apostles.

For instance this phrase here: "I'm being told over and over to follow and submit to men, that's incredibly ironic." that statement has absolutely no reference to my teaching you. I never said submit nor implied it in any form whatsoever. I used a different "s" word - sustain.

However, your response captured certain common phrases as if they were placed in your mind even as you read my direct yes, but clear post. I would question the source of that voice a bit more.

[Vision]

One of my relatives was Peregrine Sessions. He was a journal writer. He was the 26th member of the church and came across the plains with the first wagon train. There are several journal entries of his where he mentioned people being raised from the dead on the trip.

Vision are you aware of any publication of his journal. I am always interested in studying the journals of the early pioneers and would love to be able to access Peregrine Sessions journal if it was available.

http://www.amazon.com/Exemplary-Elder-P ... 0842525106" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[kennyhs]

I have questions for Stahura and rewcox.

Stahura: can you make me a sincere case FOR the brethren?

rewcox: can you make me a sincere case for approaching Christ W/O the brethren?

I realize this is not addressed to me but it so well encapsulates the false premise that has created so much misunderstanding that I am going to comment. It is not a mutually exclusive process that to accept Christ means to do so without sustaining the brethren. In fact, that is what Ephesians 4 is all about. They are given as part of the process of coming unto Christ. They have specific roles, duties and capacities that Christ provided as PART of the plan of salvation to assist. It is a false standard to establish that the process is complete without the chosen servants of the Lord somewhere in the mix and prominently at that. These servants are those that fit the description given in Ephesians, who are called by proper authority.

The problem isn't sustaining leaders. I've never said that we shouldn't sustain leaders, I've said many times that I sustain my leaders and I read their talks frequently.

The problem is this false doctrine that says "you can't be born of God without first having a witness that the current church leaders are true prophets"
This is false, and damning.

It is interesting that you choose to respond in the defense fashion that you have chosen. My point was addressed specifically to the question that Black Raven asked. My point is the basis for the question is a false paradigm. It is wrong. It presupposes that we can separate a process into its separate components and the process will work in whole if an individual chooses only to act on pieces of the process.

That you chose to defend your perspective when it was not even challenged speaks to issues that you have with you. I think you recognize in yourself the same things that others recognize. You may have accepted Christ as a part of the process but we can see that you have struggled with how to reconcile sustainment of the brethren with a sense of feeling like you are relegating the Savior to a lessor position. This false sense of what it means to keep the Savior as your focus has been one of the most damning doctrines promulgated by Denver Snuffer and all over this forum. It creates personal confusion and a fear that Christ will think that you are not committed to him if you don't keep reinforcing over and over and over and over and over and over and over (20x more) that the brethren are not your focus because they are not the perfect being that your eye is focused on.

Even more confusing to you is another misunderstanding. You are failing to understand that being born again is, as Neil A. Maxwell stated, "only the beginning of becoming like Christ." No person can be born again unless he or she at least gives some credence to the words of the prophets, which is one of the primary principles of the lectures on faith. Now the expectation is that you will learn as you progress how to recognize Christ in all of his servants including yourself.

Now you claim that this is false and damning If someone believes "you can't be born of God without first having a witness that the current church leaders are true prophets". I can tell that you are eager to learn but you seem to be running faster than you are able and lack in understanding in so many areas especially as to who should be a part of the process to guide you down the path after you begin the process of becoming as Christ. If you only are born again and you do not ever gain the testimony of the leaders of this dispensation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints then you are damned. Yes, you are damned. You have achieved a testimony of Christ but have been deceived concerning his servants and that which they speak in his behalf and fall most probably into this category:

D & C 76

75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.

Those in this category are those that merit a terrestrial existence. It is a kingdom of damnation and I have shared the quotes to sustain this thought too many times on this forum already. To be at the beginning of a process of moving towards perfection is not adequate to receive all that the Father has. Thus it might be prudent to start recognizing that what you have stated over and over about being born again is not the end of the process. You speak of it as if it defines the whole process and, I’m sorry, but there is a long ways to go and somewhere in that mix you are going to have to quit caveating your sustainment of the brethren with this or that weak disclaimer. You say words of sustainment from time to time and that somehow makes you feel like you are covering the distance but it is obvious and we can feel it that you have not jumped this hurdle. You do not sustain the leaders of the church in the sincere and converted fashion that must be achieved to continue the process of advancing to where Christ is.

This is the best post ever written. Talk about telling it like it is, thank-you for having this kind of courage, you speak the truth!

[brlenox]

You have achieved a testimony of Christ but have been deceived concerning his servants and that which they speak in his behalf and fall most probably into this category:

D & C 76

75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.

Those in this category are those that merit a terrestrial existence. It is a kingdom of damnation and I have shared the quotes to sustain this thought too many times on this forum already. To be at the beginning of a process of moving towards perfection is not adequate to receive all that the Father has. Thus it might be prudent to start recognizing that what you have stated over and over about being born again is not the end of the process. You speak of it as if it defines the whole process and, I’m sorry, but there is a long ways to go and somewhere in that mix you are going to have to quit caveating your sustainment of the brethren with this or that weak disclaimer. You say words of sustainment from time to time and that somehow makes you feel like you are covering the distance but it is obvious and we can feel it that you have not jumped this hurdle. You do not sustain the leaders of the church in the sincere and converted fashion that must be achieved to continue the process of advancing to where Christ is.

This is the best post ever written. Talk about telling it like it is, thank-you for having this kind of courage, you speak the truth!

Thank you.

[Finrock]

I have questions for Stahura and rewcox.

Stahura: can you make me a sincere case FOR the brethren?

rewcox: can you make me a sincere case for approaching Christ W/O the brethren?

I realize this is not addressed to me but it so well encapsulates the false premise that has created so much misunderstanding that I am going to comment. It is not a mutually exclusive process that to accept Christ means to do so without sustaining the brethren. In fact, that is what Ephesians 4 is all about. They are given as part of the process of coming unto Christ. They have specific roles, duties and capacities that Christ provided as PART of the plan of salvation to assist. It is a false standard to establish that the process is complete without the chosen servants of the Lord somewhere in the mix and prominently at that. These servants are those that fit the description given in Ephesians, who are called by proper authority.

The problem isn't sustaining leaders. I've never said that we shouldn't sustain leaders, I've said many times that I sustain my leaders and I read their talks frequently.

The problem is this false doctrine that says "you can't be born of God without first having a witness that the current church leaders are true prophets"
This is false, and damning.

It is interesting that you choose to respond in the defense fashion that you have chosen. My point was addressed specifically to the question that Black Raven asked. My point is the basis for the question is a false paradigm. It is wrong. It presupposes that we can separate a process into its separate components and the process will work in whole if an individual chooses only to act on pieces of the process.

That you chose to defend your perspective when it was not even challenged speaks to issues that you have with you. I think you recognize in yourself the same things that others recognize. You may have accepted Christ as a part of the process but we can see that you have struggled with how to reconcile sustainment of the brethren with a sense of feeling like you are relegating the Savior to a lessor position. This false sense of what it means to keep the Savior as your focus has been one of the most damning doctrines promulgated by Denver Snuffer and all over this forum. It creates personal confusion and a fear that Christ will think that you are not committed to him if you don't keep reinforcing over and over and over and over and over and over and over (20x more) that the brethren are not your focus because they are not the perfect being that your eye is focused on.

Even more confusing to you is another misunderstanding. You are failing to understand that being born again is, as Neil A. Maxwell stated, "only the beginning of becoming like Christ." No person can be born again unless he or she at least gives some credence to the words of the prophets, which is one of the primary principles of the lectures on faith. Now the expectation is that you will learn as you progress how to recognize Christ in all of his servants including yourself.

Now you claim that this is false and damning If someone believes "you can't be born of God without first having a witness that the current church leaders are true prophets". I can tell that you are eager to learn but you seem to be running faster than you are able and lack in understanding in so many areas especially as to who should be a part of the process to guide you down the path after you begin the process of becoming as Christ. If you only are born again and you do not ever gain the testimony of the leaders of this dispensation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints then you are damned. Yes, you are damned. You have achieved a testimony of Christ but have been deceived concerning his servants and that which they speak in his behalf and fall most probably into this category:

D & C 76

75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.

Those in this category are those that merit a terrestrial existence. It is a kingdom of damnation and I have shared the quotes to sustain this thought too many times on this forum already. To be at the beginning of a process of moving towards perfection is not adequate to receive all that the Father has. Thus it might be prudent to start recognizing that what you have stated over and over about being born again is not the end of the process. You speak of it as if it defines the whole process and, I’m sorry, but there is a long ways to go and somewhere in that mix you are going to have to quit caveating your sustainment of the brethren with this or that weak disclaimer. You say words of sustainment from time to time and that somehow makes you feel like you are covering the distance but it is obvious and we can feel it that you have not jumped this hurdle. You do not sustain the leaders of the church in the sincere and converted fashion that must be achieved to continue the process of advancing to where Christ is.

This post to me is saying, "Stahura, we know that you are not truly converted. We know you are lost. We know this because you do not agree or believe as we do. Once you believe like we do and agree with us, then you are converted then we will believe your testimony."

-Finrock

[Zathura]

brlenox does seem to almost be saying that, but unlike posts from some others, I actually appreciate his feedback and correction, even if it may be off base at times. He has a true desire to help me and whoever else he approaches, and clearly puts much thought into the things that he says.

brlenox, it's only because of these things that I consider your correction and advice.

[skmo]

...There are several journal entries of his where he mentioned people being raised from the dead on the trip. That is the Priesthood Authority and Power in action. How often today do we hear of people being raised from the dead? I have given countless blessing to the sick and most of them the person recovers but after they receive medical help as well. Did the person recover from the blessing or the antibiotics? I feel we have become so dependent on technology that we have forgotten the power, but that does not mean we have lost the authority...

It is true that miracles aren't seen much these days. I think there may be a couple of conditions that influence this. In the time of Christ and shortly thereafter there were very few saints. When people believed, it was imperative that there be people who could testify to Christ's power and divinity. These were people taught by the Savior Himself or those He ordained and set apart Himself. The power of God was a new thing to the earth and the combination of newly acquired power and spirit and the need for witnesses who could testify of the divinity of the gospel made these miracles happen.

Another reason is that the scriptures tell us that no power or authority ought to be maintained by the priesthood. As God needs miracles or the tremendous faith warrants it, miracles can still occur. However, in the days of Old medical science could kill as easily as it could heal, and even in the early days of the restored gospel doctors weren't that skilled. Today medicine and treatment can do a LOT. We're supposed to take dominion over the world, learning more medical science would go abandoned if miracles cured everything.

Miracles still happen. I was born after the polio vaccine came out, but getting it to Eskimos wasn't really a priority. I got polio when I was a baby and was paralyzed on the right half of my body. My father who adopted me was a High Priest who gave me a blessing that I would be made whole to serve God. My folks tell me when we went back to the hospital the doctors could not believe it. I went home healthy. I've done some great things with my life (and even more horrible ones) but I've never healed someone of paralysis. However, I've never doubted that I could perform a miracle if the Holy Ghost prompted me to.

[skmo]

...Over the course of the last 15 years I came to the conclusion that not everything done in the church is inspired because of my time spent in meetings and observing. I had lunch today with a friend who is a first counselor in his ward Bishopric and he shared an interesting observation. His ward just changed the RS, YW, and Primary leadership. What he observed and lamented is all they did was change the titles but the people did not change. They all just shuffled to a new calling but still in leadership. My friend expressed regret in not speaking up more about having other people get leadership callings. His words were it is so cliquish. I served in 2 bishoprics and witnessed the same thing. I call it the STP syndrome. Same Ten People shuffle through the leadership. My exposure has left me with questions, not answers.

I've come to believe something I believe relevant to this. Sometimes God calls people to serve, not for the sake of the served but to help the server. To the following congregation, God will not allow the failure of His leaders to destroy His church. In my high council court, some of the members were aghast at what I told them but they showed love and concern in their rebuking. On the other hand, one was insulting, demeaning, and made no effort to hide his revulsion. Still another was so concerned with my eternal soul he decided it was a good place to sleep. With as horrible as I hurt when I felt the GOTHG leave me, I knew their decision was correct. I am slowly coming back, taking my time and doing what I can to do it right.

Perhaps those who made the STP decisions were doing the right thing. Maybe they were being lazy. At some point their service will come back to them. If it's comfort because they knew they did the best, that can strengthen them as they move on. If it's shame because they were not valiant in their service, they'll learn to deal with that. It's important we not allow the imperfections of human frailty of others damn us from moving forward in the gospel. There is always something good saints can do to better God's kingdom.