"Fighting Against The Church"

[marc]

I have simply stopped posting in almost all discussions, which either do not or are not helpful on my journey or else do nothing but stir contention.

You lost the spirit?

Yes, the spirit of contention is no longer part of my life. :ymhug:

[rewcox]

I have simply stopped posting in almost all discussions, which either do not or are not helpful on my journey or else do nothing but stir contention.

You lost the spirit?

Yes, the spirit of contention is no longer part of my life. :ymhug:

Well, I like the meaty part of the gospel. HG actually had more threads that were interesting. The meaty parts here get little notice, but that is ok. I will always be grateful for when you posted the links to Hugh Nibley.

When you have a group from anti- mormon, disaffecteds to TBMs, there isn't going to be a middle ground. However, I took some time on the continuous polygamy blasts and got an answer. Did the same on whether leaders are involved in the born again process.

I know you like the Book of Mormon, it is great.

[BrotherOfMahonri]

...However, I took some time on the continuous polygamy blasts and got an answer...

Would love to hear you expound on your answer as to polygamy on some thread...

[rewcox]

...However, I took some time on the continuous polygamy blasts and got an answer...

Would love to hear you expound on your answer as to polygamy on some thread...

I did, on some of the recent polygamy threads, there were like 3 or 4 going on at the same time.

[skmo]

If we read scripture that states God is an unchangeable being and he is the same yesterday, today and forever then why so many changes to the ordinances?

God is eternal and unchanging, He is always God. His authority is eternal and unchanging. His purpose is eternal and unchanging.

Now, the gospel on the earth, which directs His followers changes in how it is applied, what parts can be revealed and what cannot according to the progress and failings of the saints and the rest of the world. The ancient Jews could not eat bacon but they could have as much wine as they wanted. Saints today can have bacon but can't have whiskey. Abraham could have multiple lives and it did not destroy his faith, and polygamy was a part of the early LDS church, which I'm sure was a real benefit temporally with so many men dying in the progress of the saints, but the members couldn't live it righteously so it was taken.

We are given what we need. It does not have to match up with what we want.

I have more peace in my life now than I did when I was firmly in the Brethren are infallible camp.

Of course the brethren aren't infallible, but they are called and set apart to their callings. No one should ever follow another blindly, but I've seen too many people use that as an excuse to slide slowly into inactivity and apathy. We should all try to find a happy medium, but only a fool completely dismisses God's chosen leaders.

Christ wouldn't need to return to set his in order if it wasn't out of order.

He is returning to the whole earth, not just to the LDS Church.

[Black Raven]

I have questions for Stahura and rewcox.

Stahura: can you make me a sincere case FOR the brethren?

rewcox: can you make me a sincere case for approaching Christ W/O the brethren?

[Zathura]

I have questions for Stahura and rewcox.

Stahura: can you make me a sincere case FOR the brethren?

rewcox: can you make me a sincere case for approaching Christ W/O the brethren?

God calls men to preach his word. When inspired by the Holy Ghost, we must heed their words, and those words will lead us to Christ.

From time to time, the brethren preach to those who have ears to hear. Those who have ears to hear understand the glorious Truths that they received from God, and this will aid them to repent and depend more fully on Jesus Christ, the one being that can grant us salvation

Satisfied?

[Black Raven]

Stahura, thank you for your sincere response. I felt edified by it. I definitely feel the need for the brethren and maybe I'm more dependent on them than you are but I think we can at least agree that they serve an important role for those of us who are sincerely seeking Christ. Perhaps I need to become less dependent on them as they are the ones trying to point me directly to Christ but that is probably the scariest thought in my heart right now; can I confidently find Christ on my own?
Sometimes I feel like the Brethren are too much of a safety net for me. I feel during certain GC talks they are begging me to use them as a launching pad to find Christ on my own but I keep asking myself, how?
Thanks again. BR.

[Zathura]

Stahura, thank you for your sincere response. I felt edified by it. I definitely feel the need for the brethren and maybe I'm more dependent on them than you are but I think we can at least agree that they serve an important role for those of us who are sincerely seeking Christ. Perhaps I need to become less dependent on them as they are the ones trying to point me directly to Christ but that is probably the scariest thought in my heart right now; can I confidently find Christ on my own?
Sometimes I feel like the Brethren are too much of a safety net for me. I feel during certain GC talks they are begging me to use them as a launching pad to find Christ on my own but I keep asking myself, how?
Thanks again. BR.

The key is the doctrine of Christ.
Have you been spiritually born of God, as Alma asked the members of the church?
Do you have a knowledge of when you were born again? Did you receive a remission of sins?
Have you had the baptism of fire &I Holy Ghost?

Perhaps you have had this, but didn't realize what it was when it occurred. In this case, ponder on the scriptures that I shared with you, and ponder on your past experiences with God.
Did you feel the love of God fill your body from head to toe, did you feel that fire? Did you feel to praise God? Would your heart burst of joy?

Perhaps you have not had this, and you can now seek it.

Read Mosiah 4-5.
Read Alma 5
Read 3 Nephi 19
Read Helaman 5:44-45
Read Moses 6:65-68

Read Elder Bednars talk called "ye must be born again"

Read a talk called "Fire and the Holy Ghost" from 1995

The purpose of prophets is to help you come unto Christ and be born of God, that you may have the Holy Ghost. This Holy Ghost will guide you in all things, and will resolve any doubts you have.

[brlenox]

One of my relatives was Peregrine Sessions. He was a journal writer. He was the 26th member of the church and came across the plains with the first wagon train. There are several journal entries of his where he mentioned people being raised from the dead on the trip.

Vision are you aware of any publication of his journal. I am always interested in studying the journals of the early pioneers and would love to be able to access Peregrine Sessions journal if it was available.

[brlenox]

I have questions for Stahura and rewcox.

Stahura: can you make me a sincere case FOR the brethren?

rewcox: can you make me a sincere case for approaching Christ W/O the brethren?

I realize this is not addressed to me but it so well encapsulates the false premise that has created so much misunderstanding that I am going to comment. It is not a mutually exclusive process that to accept Christ means to do so without sustaining the brethren. In fact, that is what Ephesians 4 is all about. They are given as part of the process of coming unto Christ. They have specific roles, duties and capacities that Christ provided as PART of the plan of salvation to assist. It is a false standard to establish that the process is complete without the chosen servants of the Lord somewhere in the mix and prominently at that. These servants are those that fit the description given in Ephesians, who are called by proper authority.

[Zathura]

I have questions for Stahura and rewcox.

Stahura: can you make me a sincere case FOR the brethren?

rewcox: can you make me a sincere case for approaching Christ W/O the brethren?

I realize this is not addressed to me but it so well encapsulates the false premise that has created so much misunderstanding that I am going to comment. It is not a mutually exclusive process that to accept Christ means to do so without sustaining the brethren. In fact, that is what Ephesians 4 is all about. They are given as part of the process of coming unto Christ. They have specific roles, duties and capacities that Christ provided as PART of the plan of salvation to assist. It is a false standard to establish that the process is complete without the chosen servants of the Lord somewhere in the mix and prominently at that. These servants are those that fit the description given in Ephesians, who are called by proper authority.

The problem isn't sustaining leaders. I've never said that we shouldn't sustain leaders, I've said many times that I sustain my leaders and I read their talks frequently.

The problem is this false doctrine that says "you can't be born of God without first having a witness that the current church leaders are true prophets"
This is false, and damning.

[Stacy Oliver]

I have questions for Stahura and rewcox.

Stahura: can you make me a sincere case FOR the brethren?

rewcox: can you make me a sincere case for approaching Christ W/O the brethren?

I realize this is not addressed to me but it so well encapsulates the false premise that has created so much misunderstanding that I am going to comment. It is not a mutually exclusive process that to accept Christ means to do so without sustaining the brethren. In fact, that is what Ephesians 4 is all about. They are given as part of the process of coming unto Christ. They have specific roles, duties and capacities that Christ provided as PART of the plan of salvation to assist. It is a false standard to establish that the process is complete without the chosen servants of the Lord somewhere in the mix and prominently at that. These servants are those that fit the description given in Ephesians, who are called by proper authority.

The problem isn't sustaining leaders. I've never said that we shouldn't sustain leaders, I've said many times that I sustain my leaders and I read their talks frequently.

The problem is this false doctrine that says "you can't be born of God without first having a witness that the current church leaders are true prophets"
This is false, and damning.

I thought we settled this issue on another thread. We must have a witness that Pres. Monson holds the keys.

In order to be properly baptized, we must be baptized by someone with authority. And how can we know that they have authority unless God tells us (thus giving us a testimony of their divine calling)?

[gfnelson]

I agree with Stacy.

You cannot be LDS without recognizing the brethren ad prophets.

They are here to guide us in all things. They have the power and authority of God.

[Zathura]

Recognizing the church leaders and sustaining them is not the same thing as knowing by the power of the Holy Gjost that they are true prophets.

[Zathura]

I agree with Stacy.

You cannot be LDS without recognizing the brethren ad prophets.

They are here to guide us in all things. They have the power and authority of God.

The Holy Ghost guides us in all things.

[Zathura]

I have a sure knowledge that I have been born of God. Nothing in heaven or hell can tell me that I haven't been.
Until this day, I sustain the leaders of this church.
Until this day, I do not know if our current leaders are true prophets,I believe and hope they are, and I seek to know if they are.

It is false to think you must have a testimony of them before you are born of God. There isn't a single scripture anywhere that teaches Such an apostate doctrine.
Get offended if you want, you won't find such a scripture.

[Stacy Oliver]

I have a sure knowledge that I have been born of God. Nothing in heaven or hell can tell me that I haven't been.
Until this day, I sustain the leaders of this church.
Until this day, I do not know if our current leaders are true prophets, I seek to know if they are.

It is false to think you must have a testimony of them before you are born of God. There isn't a single scripture anywhere that teaches Such an apostate doctrine.
Get offended if you want, you won't find such a scripture.

If baptism is necessary for being born again, and if baptism must be done by those with authority, then I think you have your answer.

[Zathura]

I have a sure knowledge that I have been born of God. Nothing in heaven or hell can tell me that I haven't been.
Until this day, I sustain the leaders of this church.
Until this day, I do not know if our current leaders are true prophets, I seek to know if they are.

It is false to think you must have a testimony of them before you are born of God. There isn't a single scripture anywhere that teaches Such an apostate doctrine.
Get offended if you want, you won't find such a scripture.

If baptism is necessary for being born again, and if baptism must be done by those with authority, then I think you have your answer.

Seeing as I was born of God 10 years after that baptism at a time when I had been inactive for a year, that's really not a very telling answer in my situation.

[gfnelson]

I agree with Stacy.

You cannot be LDS without recognizing the brethren ad prophets.

They are here to guide us in all things. They have the power and authority of God.

The Holy Ghost guides us in all things.

Well if you are a member, the church leaders will also be your guide.

You say you sustain them? When you raise your arm to the square to do so you are entering into an oath to follow them. Elder Nelson explained this recently.

[Stacy Oliver]

I have a sure knowledge that I have been born of God. Nothing in heaven or hell can tell me that I haven't been.
Until this day, I sustain the leaders of this church.
Until this day, I do not know if our current leaders are true prophets, I seek to know if they are.

It is false to think you must have a testimony of them before you are born of God. There isn't a single scripture anywhere that teaches Such an apostate doctrine.
Get offended if you want, you won't find such a scripture.

If baptism is necessary for being born again, and if baptism must be done by those with authority, then I think you have your answer.

Seeing as I was born of God 10 years after that baptism at a time when I had been inactive for a year, that's really not a very telling answer in my situation.

If my conditions are correct, then the conclusion is inescapable. Which of my conditions are incorrect?

[Zathura]

I agree with Stacy.

You cannot be LDS without recognizing the brethren ad prophets.

They are here to guide us in all things. They have the power and authority of God.

The Holy Ghost guides us in all things.

Well if you are a member, the church leaders will also be your guide.

You say you sustain them? When you raise your arm to the square to do so you are entering into an oath to follow them. Elder Nelson explained this recently.

I do sustain them.

What our leaders say is scripture as long as it is inspired of be Holy Ghost.
i don't believe what he said about oaths to be inspired of God. I don't believe that has scriptural basis, it's not doctrinal. We are told not to make oaths in the NT.

[Zathura]

I have a sure knowledge that I have been born of God. Nothing in heaven or hell can tell me that I haven't been.
Until this day, I sustain the leaders of this church.
Until this day, I do not know if our current leaders are true prophets, I seek to know if they are.

It is false to think you must have a testimony of them before you are born of God. There isn't a single scripture anywhere that teaches Such an apostate doctrine.
Get offended if you want, you won't find such a scripture.

If baptism is necessary for being born again, and if baptism must be done by those with authority, then I think you have your answer.

Seeing as I was born of God 10 years after that baptism at a time when I had been inactive for a year, that's really not a very telling answer in my situation.

If my conditions are correct, then the conclusion is inescapable. Which of my conditions are incorrect?

Whichever makes you feel better.

The fact that my dad baptized me 10 years before I was born of God has nothing to do with whether or not our current leaders are true prophets.

Answers and testimony don't come by logic or blanket answers or genealogy, they come by the power of the Holy Ghost.

[Stacy Oliver]

Whichever makes you feel better.

The fact that my dad baptized me 10 years before I was born of God has nothing to do with whether or not our current leaders are true prophets.

Answers and testimony don't come by logic or blanket answers or genealogy, they come by the power of the Holy Ghost.

You can't argue with my logic, so you just say, "Logic is stupid." Way to go.

[Zathura]

Whichever makes you feel better.

The fact that my dad baptized me 10 years before I was born of God has nothing to do with whether or not our current leaders are true prophets.

Answers and testimony don't come by logic or blanket answers or genealogy, they come by the power of the Holy Ghost.

You can't argue with my logic, so you just say, "Logic is stupid." Way to go.

Just say you disagree and move on