"Fighting Against The Church"

[Zathura]

My good friend loves to use the term "fighting against the church" each time I mention a flaw I see in the church today, even when my comment is backed up by General Authorities.
I will let an old Prophet do the talking now.


Not only are there apostates within our midst, but there are also apostate doctrines that are sometimes taught in our classes and from our pulpits and that appear in our publications. And these apostate precepts of men cause our people to stumble. As the Book of Mormon, speaking of our day, states: “They have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men” (2 Nephi 28:14). (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, Pg.89 90)


Tell me friends, is Elder Benson, the Lords Prophet fighting against Gods Church?

Could it be that we, Mormons, hold onto false traditions and false teachings?
Clearly this Prophet thought so.

I have declared that many Mormons believe in philosophies of men and half truths, and I was compared to apostates and told I'm fighting the church for saying this.

Elder Benson says that apostate doctrine appears in classes and in PUBLICATIONS. If I'm Apostate, then what is he for saying THAT?

All should pray so that we can all awaken and see the horrible state that we are in, and begin to depend on Jesus Christ for mercy, that we can be spiritually begotten and shed our false traditions.


Edit: Added a quote

when I review the performance of this people in comparison with what is expected, I am appalled and frightened. If we insist on spending all our time and resources building up for ourselves a worldly kingdom, that is exactly what we will inherit. In spite of our delight in defining ourselves as modern, and our tendency to think we possess a sophistication that no people in the past ever had–in spite of these things, we are, on the whole, an idolatrous people–a condition most repugnant to the Lord. (Ensign, June 1976)

[Zathura]

Don't fight against the church

[Dash jones]

My good friend loves to use the term "fighting against the church" each time I mention a flaw I see in the church today, even when my comment is backed up by General Authorities.
I will let an old Prophet do the talking now.


Not only are there apostates within our midst, but there are also apostate doctrines that are sometimes taught in our classes and from our pulpits and that appear in our publications. And these apostate precepts of men cause our people to stumble. As the Book of Mormon, speaking of our day, states: “They have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men” (2 Nephi 28:14). (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, Pg.89 90)


Tell me friends, is Elder Benson, the Lords Prophet fighting against Gods Church?

Could it be that we, Mormons, hold onto false traditions and false teachings?
Clearly this Prophet thought so.

I have declared that many Mormons believe in philosophies of men and half truths, and I was compared to apostates and told I'm fighting the church for saying this.

Elder Benson says that apostate doctrine appears in classes and in PUBLICATIONS. If I'm Apostate, then what is he for saying THAT?

All should pray so that we can all awaken and see the horrible state that we are in, and begin to depend on Jesus Christ for mercy, that we can be spiritually begotten and shed our false traditions.

Probably not. I think it is easy for someone to teach something from a Pulpit or in a class that isn't doctrine. It's normally their opinion or thoughts if it isn't straight from a manual or writing somewhere. In that instance, it is possible that many share opinions that are not doctrines.

The same would go for publications that are not official doctrines taught of the church. I think people have pointed out that Brigham Young himself had his opinions, and had his doctrine. When it wasn't in the official capacity he had as a prophet, than it would have been his opinions. For example, I think he has been quoted to indicate he believed (stress the believe thing) that there were men on the moon already. One could say this was a false doctrine, but it wasn't doctrine, it was his opinion.

The same may even be said of some conference talks at times, some more than others (was it not Bruce R. McKonkie who had to apologize or something to that effect?).

It can make it difficult at times for some researching LDS beliefs to categorize what is more doctrinally sound than others, but it is something that one would need to be careful and cognizant of as a Mormon. I suppose that's where you need to depend on more with faith and what you see as doctrine (or as some would put it, reliance on the Holy Ghost) than merely face value?

[Ezra]

My good friend loves to use the term "fighting against the church" each time I mention a flaw I see in the church today, even when my comment is backed up by General Authorities.
I will let an old Prophet do the talking now.


Not only are there apostates within our midst, but there are also apostate doctrines that are sometimes taught in our classes and from our pulpits and that appear in our publications. And these apostate precepts of men cause our people to stumble. As the Book of Mormon, speaking of our day, states: “They have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men” (2 Nephi 28:14). (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, Pg.89 90)


Tell me friends, is Elder Benson, the Lords Prophet fighting against Gods Church?

Could it be that we, Mormons, hold onto false traditions and false teachings?
Clearly this Prophet thought so.

I have declared that many Mormons believe in philosophies of men and half truths, and I was compared to apostates and told I'm fighting the church for saying this.

Elder Benson says that apostate doctrine appears in classes and in PUBLICATIONS. If I'm Apostate, then what is he for saying THAT?

All should pray so that we can all awaken and see the horrible state that we are in, and begin to depend on Jesus Christ for mercy, that we can be spiritually begotten and shed our false traditions.

Matt 11:
6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

2 nephi 28:28
28 And in fine, wo unto all those who tremble, and are angry because of the truth of God! For behold, he that is built upon the rock receiveth it with gladness; and he that is built upon a sandy foundation trembleth lest he shall fall.

Most Mormons don't like the truth. It cuts them deep. Accually most people in the world from every walk of life.

I believe it was Ezra Taft benson who also said that "Mormons don't want to be told the truth, they want to be told what they are doing is right even if it's not. "

There is a big reason why many are called and only a few chosen.

[Zathura]

Matt 11:
6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

2 nephi 28:28
28 And in fine, wo unto all those who tremble, and are angry because of the truth of God! For behold, he that is built upon the rock receiveth it with gladness; and he that is built upon a sandy foundation trembleth lest he shall fall.

Most Mormons don't like the truth. It cuts them deep. Accually most people in the world from every walk of life.

I believe it was Ezra Taft benson who also said that "Mormons don't want to be told the truth, they want to be told what they are doing is right even if it's not. "

There is a big reason why many are called and only a few chosen.

Thank's for that other quote.

I've noticed that when the Book of Mormon scolds us in the latter days, or when modern prophets tell us that we have done something wrong, Mormons find a way to push those calls for repentance off onto someone else, and convince themselves that the statements weren't directed at Mormons, just at apostate Christians/Mormons.

[rewcox]

There is a big reason why many are called and only a few chosen.

The Fortunate Few, I'm glad for you.

[h_p]

Not fortunate. Humble and obedient. (And I'm not including myself in that assessment, for the record, though I'm trying.)

[Zathura]

There is a big reason why many are called and only a few chosen.

The Fortunate Few, I'm glad for you.

Are you among the "fortunate few"?

[rewcox]

You seem preoccupied with flaws in the church. Do you have kids? Grand kids?

The worst thing you can do as a parent is to point out the flaws in your kids. There is a far better way, building them up.

The doctrine of Being Born Again is beautiful. Not only for what it does for the individual, but how the individual then has been lifted up and wants to lift up others.

You were involved yesterday in whether people should kneel during the sacrament prayers. Pointing out that Jesus said it, why follow leaders.

We do have leaders in the church. It is their responsibility to work on the flaws. Bishop at the ward level, Stake President at the stake level, General Authorities at the church level. For the overall church, the Prophet. That is Thomas S. Monson today.

Does Elder Bednar kneel during the Sacrament prayers? Does Elder Bednar do the Sacrament at home, using wine instead of water?

Here is the answer to kneeling. If this doesn't resolve your question, then you do have issues and are fighting against the church.

I’m puzzled by the instructions in D&C 20:76 that the priests should “kneel with the church” in blessing the sacrament. What does this mean, and has it ever been the practice for the whole congregation to kneel?
James B. Allen, Assistant Church Historian Your interesting question makes me suspect that you wonder if Saints might be technically violating some instruction by not kneeling during the administration of the sacrament. Let me assure you that you have no need for concern.

Partaking of the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper is one of our most sacred ordinances. We have several customs that help emphasize the sacredness of the occasion. They include singing appropriate hymns, reciting scriptures, and asking the priests and deacons to be properly groomed. But such aids to worship are not nearly as important as the special purpose of the sacrament itself. The sacrament prayers were given by revelation—both to the Book of Mormon people and to the Prophet Joseph Smith. If you read them carefully you will find the full meaning of the sacrament, including the commitments we take upon ourselves each week as we partake.

Outward practices change from time to time; according to changing circumstances and as the leaders of the Church receive inspiration from the Lord. The Prophet Joseph Smith once said that “that which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another.” (History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 5:135.) In this spirit the Latter-day Saints clearly understand that external forms may be altered by the living prophets as often as the Spirit so dictates to them.

Historically, I am not really certain what the phrase “kneel with the church” meant, and so far as I have been able to discover Joseph Smith did not elaborate upon it. It would be fruitless for us, it seems to me, to try to interpret too precisely a phrase that was not commented upon by the Prophet.

At the same time, we can recognize with interest some of the changes that have taken place in the external patterns. When the sacrament was first introduced by the Savior, he was seated with his apostles. He simply blessed the bread and wine, explained their meaning, and passed them around the table. (See Luke 22:14–20.) When the Savior appeared among the Nephites, he taught them about the sacrament by having them “sit themselves down upon the earth,” then blessing and distributing the sacred emblems. (See 3 Ne. 18:1–4.) It became the practice, however, for those administering the sacrament in Book of Mormon times to “kneel down with the church” as they said the prayer. (Moro. 1:2.)

In the early days of Latter-day Saint Church history, beginning with Joseph Smith, it was not uncommon for the Saints to hear an uplifting gospel sermon while the sacrament was being passed. This was merely a custom, not a revealed rule, and by the end of the nineteenth century it was discontinued.

Later, it became the custom to play or sing devotional music during the sacrament service, but in 1946 the First Presidency felt inspired to recommend that this be replaced by quiet and worshipful reverence. In a letter to all stake presidents and bishops they explained a principle that could also apply to any such outward practices: “Anything which detracts the partaker’s thoughts from the covenants he or she is making is not in accordance with the ideal condition that should exist whenever this sacred, commemorative ordinance is administered.” (Improvement Era, 1946, 49:384.)

The practice of having the whole congregation kneel during the sacrament prayer was not uncommon during the nineteenth century, though it was not required, either. In 1902, President Joseph F. Smith approved an Improvement Era editorial that observed that it had been the custom “when the congregations were not so large as they are now” for the whole congregation to kneel, and that it was still not improper. This was in response to a question about whether more than one of the brethren administering the sacrament should kneel during the prayer. “This matter, however,” the editorial concluded, “may be regulated by the presiding authority, according to local surroundings, circumstances and conditions.” (Improvement Era, 1902, 5:473–74.) The custom of all kneeling together was clearly disappearing at that time, though we do not know when the practice finally ended. The important thing is that the sacred meaning of the sacrament and the essential elements of the sacrament service—that is, the purpose, the prayer, and the authority of the priesthood—have remained constant. These, after all, are the things that really count.

[Zathura]

You seem preoccupied with flaws in the church. Do you have kids? Grand kids?

The worst thing you can do as a parent is to point out the flaws in your kids. There is a far better way, building them up.

The doctrine of Being Born Again is beautiful. Not only for what it does for the individual, but how the individual then has been lifted up and wants to lift up others.

You were involved yesterday in whether people should kneel during the sacrament prayers. Pointing out that Jesus said it, why follow leaders.

We do have leaders in the church. It is their responsibility to work on the flaws. Bishop at the ward level, Stake President at the stake level, General Authorities at the church level. For the overall church, the Prophet. That is Thomas S. Monson today.

Does Elder Bednar kneel during the Sacrament prayers? Does Elder Bednar do the Sacrament at home, using wine instead of water?

Here is the answer to kneeling. If this doesn't resolve your question, then you do have issues and are fighting against the church.

I’m puzzled by the instructions in D&C 20:76 that the priests should “kneel with the church” in blessing the sacrament. What does this mean, and has it ever been the practice for the whole congregation to kneel?
James B. Allen, Assistant Church Historian Your interesting question makes me suspect that you wonder if Saints might be technically violating some instruction by not kneeling during the administration of the sacrament. Let me assure you that you have no need for concern.

Partaking of the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper is one of our most sacred ordinances. We have several customs that help emphasize the sacredness of the occasion. They include singing appropriate hymns, reciting scriptures, and asking the priests and deacons to be properly groomed. But such aids to worship are not nearly as important as the special purpose of the sacrament itself. The sacrament prayers were given by revelation—both to the Book of Mormon people and to the Prophet Joseph Smith. If you read them carefully you will find the full meaning of the sacrament, including the commitments we take upon ourselves each week as we partake.

Outward practices change from time to time; according to changing circumstances and as the leaders of the Church receive inspiration from the Lord. The Prophet Joseph Smith once said that “that which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another.” (History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 5:135.) In this spirit the Latter-day Saints clearly understand that external forms may be altered by the living prophets as often as the Spirit so dictates to them.

Historically, I am not really certain what the phrase “kneel with the church” meant, and so far as I have been able to discover Joseph Smith did not elaborate upon it. It would be fruitless for us, it seems to me, to try to interpret too precisely a phrase that was not commented upon by the Prophet.

At the same time, we can recognize with interest some of the changes that have taken place in the external patterns. When the sacrament was first introduced by the Savior, he was seated with his apostles. He simply blessed the bread and wine, explained their meaning, and passed them around the table. (See Luke 22:14–20.) When the Savior appeared among the Nephites, he taught them about the sacrament by having them “sit themselves down upon the earth,” then blessing and distributing the sacred emblems. (See 3 Ne. 18:1–4.) It became the practice, however, for those administering the sacrament in Book of Mormon times to “kneel down with the church” as they said the prayer. (Moro. 1:2.)

In the early days of Latter-day Saint Church history, beginning with Joseph Smith, it was not uncommon for the Saints to hear an uplifting gospel sermon while the sacrament was being passed. This was merely a custom, not a revealed rule, and by the end of the nineteenth century it was discontinued.

Later, it became the custom to play or sing devotional music during the sacrament service, but in 1946 the First Presidency felt inspired to recommend that this be replaced by quiet and worshipful reverence. In a letter to all stake presidents and bishops they explained a principle that could also apply to any such outward practices: “Anything which detracts the partaker’s thoughts from the covenants he or she is making is not in accordance with the ideal condition that should exist whenever this sacred, commemorative ordinance is administered.” (Improvement Era, 1946, 49:384.)

The practice of having the whole congregation kneel during the sacrament prayer was not uncommon during the nineteenth century, though it was not required, either. In 1902, President Joseph F. Smith approved an Improvement Era editorial that observed that it had been the custom “when the congregations were not so large as they are now” for the whole congregation to kneel, and that it was still not improper. This was in response to a question about whether more than one of the brethren administering the sacrament should kneel during the prayer. “This matter, however,” the editorial concluded, “may be regulated by the presiding authority, according to local surroundings, circumstances and conditions.” (Improvement Era, 1902, 5:473–74.) The custom of all kneeling together was clearly disappearing at that time, though we do not know when the practice finally ended. The important thing is that the sacred meaning of the sacrament and the essential elements of the sacrament service—that is, the purpose, the prayer, and the authority of the priesthood—have remained constant. These, after all, are the things that really count.

So since Jesus said to kneel and leaders said not to.. does that mean that the leaders are fighting against Jesus??
So If I fight against the church, and they fight against Jesus.. who's side am I on???
Help me Rewcox!

[rewcox]

So since Jesus said to kneel and leaders said not to.. does that mean that the leaders are fighting against Jesus??
So If I fight against the church, and they fight against Jesus.. who's side am I on???
Help me Rewcox!

Did you even read what I posted? Did you answer the questions? You can't be helped if you don't listen.

If you think being born again gives you a pass to do your own thing, you are wrong. BofM.

[Zathura]

So since Jesus said to kneel and leaders said not to.. does that mean that the leaders are fighting against Jesus??
So If I fight against the church, and they fight against Jesus.. who's side am I on???
Help me Rewcox!

Did you even read what I posted? Did you answer the questions? You can't be helped if you don't listen.

If you think being born again gives you a pass to do your own thing, you are wrong. BofM.

I've answered your questions since the day you began attacking every one of my posts.

Until now, you have never given me an explanation for the scriptures you attack me for posting. You say I understand the scriptures incorrectly, yet you never answer me when I ask you what the scriptures actually mean.

When you begin explaining the scriptures that I supposedly misunderstand, then I will begin answering your questions.
As long as you evade my questions, I will refuse to answer yours

[rewcox]

Ok BofM. We answered the polygamy question. We answered the kneeling question. You didn't answer if Elder Bednar kneels during the Sacrament prayers, of if you do, either.

So since Jesus said to kneel and leaders said not to.. does that mean that the leaders are fighting against Jesus??
So If I fight against the church, and they fight against Jesus.. who's side am I on???
Help me Rewcox!

Did you even read what I posted? Did you answer the questions? You can't be helped if you don't listen.

If you think being born again gives you a pass to do your own thing, you are wrong. BofM.

I've answered your questions since the day you began attacking every one of my posts.

Until now, you have never given me an explanation for the scriptures you attack me for posting. You say I understand the scriptures incorrectly, yet you never answer me when I ask you what the scriptures actually mean.

When you begin explaining the scriptures that I supposedly misunderstand, then I will begin answering your questions.
As long as you evade my questions, I will refuse to answer yours

[abelchirino]

All should pray so that we can all awaken and see the horrible state that we are in, and begin to depend on Jesus Christ for mercy, that we can be spiritually begotten and shed our false traditions.

Stahura, this is my problem with many who share a message like you: how do you know that people are not already depending on Jesus Christ for mercy? The problem isn't always your message, although there are many who are wrong in their conclusions, the problem is most of the time with your method. In criticizing Mormons for being pharisaic, many of you often stumble on the same block. There are many things wrong inside the church, we can all see that. And trust me, there are many who are doing all of their best, who are putting their part to get the general membership of the church to be where they need to be. But the way in which you get that message across matters a lot and it makes all of the difference. Don't be like those who are just waiting to see someone do something you consider is wrong or may construe to be wrong just to point it out from the rooftops.

Now as to what is doctrine and what is not, we have to be very careful not to teach something as doctrine which might not be doctrine. Because Jesus threw himself on the ground when he prayed in Gethsemane does not mean that we should all throw ourselves on the ground when we pray. Because a precedent was set at one point does not mean that it always needs to be followed.

[Robin Hood]

I think we need to understand what we mean by the "church".
Do we mean the institution/corporation etc?
Or do we mean the real church ie. the ecclesia or congregation of believers?

The answer appears obvious at first, but think about it. Corporations don't have beliefs or doctrines themselves.
Are the leadership of the church part of the corporation or part of the church?

It gets quite messy when you think about it.

[rewcox]

I think we need to understand what we mean by the "church".
Do we mean the institution/corporation etc?
Or do we mean the real church ie. the ecclesia or congregation of believers?

The answer appears obvious at first, but think about it. Corporations don't have beliefs or doctrines themselves.
Are the leadership of the church part of the corporation or part of the church?

It gets quite messy when you think about it.

Aren't you a bishop? You should know.

[Robin Hood]

I think we need to understand what we mean by the "church".
Do we mean the institution/corporation etc?
Or do we mean the real church ie. the ecclesia or congregation of believers?

The answer appears obvious at first, but think about it. Corporations don't have beliefs or doctrines themselves.
Are the leadership of the church part of the corporation or part of the church?

It gets quite messy when you think about it.

Aren't you a bishop? You should know.

Yeah, but not a very clever one. :-\

[rewcox]

I think we need to understand what we mean by the "church".
Do we mean the institution/corporation etc?
Or do we mean the real church ie. the ecclesia or congregation of believers?

The answer appears obvious at first, but think about it. Corporations don't have beliefs or doctrines themselves.
Are the leadership of the church part of the corporation or part of the church?

It gets quite messy when you think about it.

Aren't you a bishop? You should know.

Yeah, but not a very clever one. :-\

Then you need a good Marion. :0

[Robin Hood]

Got one of those thankfully. #:-s
Not so sure about my band of merry men though. :-s

[rewcox]

The Savior declared, “Whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same” (D&C 1:38).

My purpose is to explain why indeed it is wonderful to have older men of great spiritual maturity and judgment serving in the senior leadership positions of the restored Church of Jesus Christ—and why we should “hear” and “hearken” (Mosiah 2:9) to the teachings of these men whom the Lord has “chosen to bear testimony of [His] name … among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people” (D&C 112:1).


“Chosen to Bear Testimony of My Name”
By Elder David A. Bednar
Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles
It is wonderful to have older men of great spiritual maturity and judgment serving in the senior leadership positions of the restored Church of Jesus Christ.

In 1996 President Gordon B. Hinckley appeared on the national television news program 60 Minutes. Mike Wallace, an experienced and tenacious journalist, interviewed President Hinckley about a number of important topics.

Near the end of their conversation, Mr. Wallace remarked, “There are those who say, ‘This is a gerontocracy. This is a church run by old men.’”

President Hinckley responded cheerfully and without hesitation, “Isn’t it wonderful to have a man of maturity at the head, a man of judgment who isn’t blown about by every wind of doctrine?” (broadcast on Apr. 7, 1996).

My purpose is to explain why indeed it is wonderful to have older men of great spiritual maturity and judgment serving in the senior leadership positions of the restored Church of Jesus Christ—and why we should “hear” and “hearken” (Mosiah 2:9) to the teachings of these men whom the Lord has “chosen to bear testimony of [His] name … among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people” (D&C 112:1).

I pray we may all be instructed by the Holy Ghost as we consider together this significant subject.

A Lesson of a Lifetime
I speak about this topic from a decidedly distinctive perspective. For the last 11 years, I have been the youngest member of the Twelve in terms of chronological age. During my years of service, the average age of the men serving in the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles has been 77 years—the oldest average age of the Apostles over an 11-year interval in this dispensation.

I have been blessed by the collective apostolic, personal, and professional experience and insight of the quorum members with whom I serve. An example from my association with Elder Robert D. Hales highlights the remarkable opportunities I have to learn from and serve with these leaders.

Several years ago I spent a Sunday afternoon with Elder Hales in his home as he was recovering from a serious illness. We discussed our families, our quorum responsibilities, and important experiences.

At one point I asked Elder Hales, “You have been a successful husband, father, athlete, pilot, business executive, and Church leader. What lessons have you learned as you have grown older and been constrained by decreased physical capacity?”

Elder Hales paused for a moment and responded, “When you cannot do what you have always done, then you only do what matters most.”

I was struck by the simplicity and comprehensiveness of his answer. My beloved apostolic associate shared with me a lesson of a lifetime—a lesson learned through the crucible of physical suffering and spiritual searching.

Human Limitations and Frailties
The limitations that are the natural consequence of advancing age can in fact become remarkable sources of spiritual learning and insight. The very factors many may believe limit the effectiveness of these servants can become some of their greatest strengths. Physical restrictions can expand vision. Limited stamina can clarify priorities. Inability to do many things can direct focus to a few things of greatest importance.

Some people have suggested younger, more vigorous leaders are needed in the Church to address effectively the serious challenges of our modern world. But the Lord does not use contemporary philosophies and practices of leadership to accomplish His purposes (see Isaiah 55:8–9). We can expect the President and other senior leaders of the Church will be older and spiritually seasoned men.

The Lord’s revealed pattern of governance by councils in His Church provides for and attenuates the impact of human frailties. Interestingly, the mortal limitations of these men actually affirm the divine source of the revelations that come to and through them. Truly, these men are called of God by prophecy (see Articles of Faith 1:5).

A Pattern of Preparation
I have observed in my Brethren at least a part of the Lord’s purpose for having older men of maturity and judgment serve in senior leadership positions of the Church. These men have had a sustained season of tutoring by the Lord, whom they represent, serve, and love. They have learned to understand the divine language of the Holy Spirit and the Lord’s patterns for receiving revelation. These ordinary men have undergone a most extraordinary developmental process that has sharpened their vision, informed their insight, engendered love for people from all nations and circumstances, and affirmed the reality of the Restoration.

I have witnessed repeatedly my Brethren striving diligently to fulfill and magnify their responsibilities while struggling with serious physical problems. These men are not spared from affliction. Rather, they are blessed and strengthened to press forward valiantly while suffering in and with affliction.

Serving with these representatives of the Lord, I have come to know their greatest desire is to discern and do the will of our Heavenly Father and His Beloved Son. As we counsel together, inspiration has been received and decisions have been made that reflect a degree of light and truth far beyond human intelligence, reasoning, and experience. As we work together in unity on perplexing problems, our collective understanding of an issue has been enlarged in marvelous ways by the power of the Holy Ghost.

I am blessed to observe on a daily basis the individual personalities, capacities, and noble characters of these leaders. Some people find the human shortcomings of the Brethren troubling and faith diminishing. For me those imperfections are encouraging and faith promoting.

An Additional Lesson
I have now witnessed six of my Brethren receive a transfer through physical death to new responsibilities in the spirit world: President James E. Faust, President Gordon B. Hinckley, Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin, Elder L. Tom Perry, President Boyd K. Packer, and Elder Richard G. Scott.

These valiant Brethren devoted their “whole souls” (Omni 1:26) to testifying of the name of Jesus Christ in all the world. The totality of their teachings is priceless.

These servants shared with us in the concluding years of their mortal ministries powerful spiritual summaries of lessons learned through decades of consecrated service. These leaders imparted truths of great worth at a time when some may believe they had the least to give.

Consider the final teachings of great prophets in the scriptures. For example, Nephi concluded his record with these words: “For thus hath the Lord commanded me, and I must obey” (2 Nephi 33:15).

Near the end of his life, Jacob admonished:

“Repent ye, and enter in at the strait gate, and continue in the way which is narrow, until ye shall obtain eternal life.

“O be wise; what can I say more?” (Jacob 6:11–12).

Moroni completed his work of preparing the plates with a hopeful anticipation of the Resurrection: “I soon go to rest in the paradise of God, until my spirit and body shall again reunite, and I am brought forth triumphant through the air, to meet you before the pleasing bar of the great Jehovah, the Eternal Judge of both quick and dead” (Moroni 10:34).

You and I are blessed to learn from the benedictory teachings and testimonies of latter-day prophets and apostles. The names today are not Nephi, Jacob, and Moroni—but President Faust, President Hinckley, Elder Wirthlin, Elder Perry, President Packer, and Elder Scott.

I am not suggesting the final messages of these beloved men necessarily were the most noteworthy or important of their ministries. However, the sum of their spiritual learning and life experiences enabled these leaders to emphasize eternal truths with absolute authenticity and great, penetrating power.


In his last general conference address, in April of 2007, President Faust declared:

“The Savior has offered to all of us a precious peace through His Atonement, but this can come only as we are willing to cast out negative feelings of anger, spite, or revenge. …

“Let us remember that we need to forgive to be forgiven. … With all my heart and soul, I believe in the healing power that can come to us as we follow the counsel of the Savior ‘to forgive all men’ [D&C 64:10]” (“The Healing Power of Forgiveness,” Ensign or Liahona, May 2007, 69).

President Faust’s message is a powerful lesson of a lifetime from a man I love and one of the most forgiving men I have ever known.


President Hinckley testified in his last general conference in October of 2007: “I affirm my witness of the calling of the Prophet Joseph, of his works, of the sealing of his testimony with his blood as a martyr to the eternal truth. … You and I are faced with the stark question of accepting the truth of the First Vision and that which followed it. On the question of its reality lies the very validity of this Church. If it is the truth, and I testify that it is, then the work in which we are engaged is the most important work on the earth” (“The Stone Cut Out of the Mountain,” Ensign or Liahona, Nov. 2007, 86).

President Hinckley’s witness affirms a powerful lesson of a lifetime from a man I love and know was a prophet of God.


Elder Wirthlin delivered his final general conference message in October of 2008.

“I still remember [my mother’s] advice to me given on that day long ago when my team lost a football game: ‘Come what may, and love it.’

“… Adversity, if handled correctly, can be a blessing in our lives. …

“As we look for humor, seek for the eternal perspective, understand the principle of compensation, and draw near to our Heavenly Father, we can endure hardship and trial. We can say, as did my mother, ‘Come what may, and love it’” (“Come What May, and Love It,” Ensign or Liahona, Nov. 2008, 28).

Elder Wirthlin’s message is a powerful lesson of a lifetime from a man I love and who was a living sermon of overcoming difficulties through faith in the Savior.


Elder Perry stood at this pulpit just six months ago. At that time we could not have imagined his testimony would be his last in a general conference.

“Let me close by bearing witness (and my nine decades on this earth fully qualify me to say this) that the older I get, the more I realize that family is the center of life and is the key to eternal happiness.

“I give thanks for my wife, for my children, for my grandchildren and my great-grandchildren, and for … extended family who make my own life so rich and, yes, even eternal. Of this eternal truth I bear my strongest and most sacred witness” (“Why Marriage and Family Matter—Everywhere in the World,” Ensign or Liahona, May 2015, 42).

Elder Perry’s message is a powerful lesson of a lifetime from a man I love and who understood through vast experience the essential relationship between family and eternal happiness.


President Packer emphasized in general conference six months ago the Father’s plan of happiness, the Savior’s Atonement, and eternal families:

“I bear witness that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of the living God. He stands at the head of the Church. Through His Atonement and the power of the priesthood, families which are begun in mortality can be together through the eternities. …

“I am so grateful for … the Atonement which can wash clean every stain no matter how difficult or how long or how many times repeated. The Atonement can put you free again to move forward, cleanly and worthily” (“The Plan of Happiness,” Ensign or Liahona, May 2015, 28).

President Packer’s final message is a lesson of a lifetime from a man I love and who emphatically and repeatedly declared that the purpose “of all activity in the Church is to see that a man and a woman with their children are happy at home, sealed together for time and for all eternity” (Ensign or Liahona, May 2015, 26).


Elder Scott proclaimed in his last general conference talk, in October 2014: “We came to mortal life precisely to grow from trials and testing. Challenges help us become more like our Father in Heaven, and the Atonement of Jesus Christ makes it possible to endure those challenges. I testify that as we actively come unto Him, we can endure every temptation, every heartache, every challenge we face” (“Make the Exercise of Faith Your First Priority,” Ensign or Liahona, Nov. 2014, 94).

Elder Scott’s message is a powerful lesson of a lifetime from a man I love and a beloved special witness of the name of Christ in all the world (see D&C 107:23).

Promise and Testimony
The Savior declared, “Whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same” (D&C 1:38). May we hear and heed the eternal truths taught by the Lord’s authorized representatives. As we do so, I promise our faith in Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ will be fortified, and we will receive spiritual guidance and protection for our specific circumstances and needs.

With all the energy of my soul, I witness the resurrected and living Christ directs the affairs of His restored and living Church through His servants who have been chosen to bear testimony of His name. I so testify in the sacred name of Jesus Christ, amen.

[isaacs2066]

It does not matter one bit what the church teaches or claims is true.

If it is not in the scriptures it is not doctrine.

So like God progressing to be God, it is not taught anywhere in scripture so we do not know if that is true or just Josephs theory.

Or how the church is structured differently than the scriptures say it should be.

[Zathura]

Dear Rewcox, remember how you called me Apostate for saying many Mormons can become idolatrous? You said that someone that was born again wouldn't say that?

Here are the words of another prophet that match what I have said.
Elder Spencer w. Kimball said :
when I review the performance of this people in comparison with what is expected, I am appalled and frightened. If we insist on spending all our time and resources building up for ourselves a worldly kingdom, that is exactly what we will inherit. In spite of our delight in defining ourselves as modern, and our tendency to think we possess a sophistication that no people in the past ever had–in spite of these things, we are, on the whole, an idolatrous people–a condition most repugnant to the Lord. (Ensign, June 1976)

What!! He said we as a whole are an idolatrous people???clearly he wasn't born again by your logic. Was he mistaken?

[Zathura]

All should pray so that we can all awaken and see the horrible state that we are in, and begin to depend on Jesus Christ for mercy, that we can be spiritually begotten and shed our false traditions.

Stahura, this is my problem with many who share a message like you: how do you know that people are not already depending on Jesus Christ for mercy? The problem isn't always your message, although there are many who are wrong in their conclusions, the problem is most of the time with your method. In criticizing Mormons for being pharisaic, many of you often stumble on the same block. There are many things wrong inside the church, we can all see that. And trust me, there are many who are doing all of their best, who are putting their part to get the general membership of the church to be where they need to be. But the way in which you get that message across matters a lot and it makes all of the difference. Don't be like those who are just waiting to see someone do something you consider is wrong or may construe to be wrong just to point it out from the rooftops.

Now as to what is doctrine and what is not, we have to be very careful not to teach something as doctrine which might not be doctrine. Because Jesus threw himself on the ground when he prayed in Gethsemane does not mean that we should all throw ourselves on the ground when we pray. Because a precedent was set at one point does not mean that it always needs to be followed.

I understand. At times I see that I am being a hypocrite and am guilty of the same things I see in others, and must repent. I apologize for that.

With that said, everything I have said is an echo of living Apostles, one quote is in the OP, one was in my last post.
There's nothing that I have said that our leaders haven't already said, I only seek to remind other Mormons of the warnings and chastisement given to us by our leaders, as it seems that Mormons love to receive praise, and ignore the chastisement.

[skmo]

One of the problems discussing things in this type of fashion is that there is so much uncommunicated, or worse, miscommunicated because non-verbal cues are so important to complete communication. You say something and what you mean is clear in your mind, but someone else takes the same words with either a different meaning or assumes a motive which may not be there.

Many of us on these boards know how others will react, so we carry preconceived notions about a comment someone makes, and it may not apply. This is often a source of contention, and rather than try to understand the other person, we carry a previous disagreement into topic after topic. Sometimes this may have value, but it also can hinder.

I have seen some people on here truly fighting against the church. Espousing humanistic teachings under the guise of being more learned or pushing something that is a form of Deism while still professing to have value in the church. Both of these things are very good tools satan uses on people, but by and large I try to understand where people are coming from. In teaching, especially in the screwy backwater places we've done this is a skill that is needed.

Take a breath, and let it out. Then respond.

[rewcox]

With that said, everything I have said is an echo of living Apostles, one quote is in the OP, one was in my last post.
There's nothing that I have said that our leaders haven't already said, I only seek to remind other Mormons of the warnings and chastisement given to us by our leaders, as it seems that Mormons love to receive praise, and ignore the chastisement.

Did you read the post on Elder Bednar's talk in conference?