A Fairy Tale

[2ndRateMind]

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven...

Matthew 5:43-45 KJV

So, there was an angel. And this angel, of all the angels, was brightest, and clearest, and closest to God. What God knew, this angel knew. What God planned, this angel loved. And the name of this angel was Lucifer, and he was first among Angels.

And Lucifer knew the world was good, and all things in it were good, and men were good. But He also knew that, in a world of good, where all things were good, men could only be good, and had no responsibility for their goodness; that belonged to God. And Lucifer knew that, to be good of their own account, to be good because of their own free choice, men must have that choice. And that this was the plan of God, that men might be free.

And so Lucifer left heaven, not because he hated God, or hated heaven, or hated men; only because he knew that only he, of all God's angels, the brightest, the fairest, the best and the dearest to God, had been created for this purpose. For who but the greatest and strongest of angels could stand the separation from God? Who but the most virtuous of angels could give men their choice; between good and evil? For all choices are between good and evil, and for men to have freedom and choice they must first have the possibility for evil.

And so Lucifer left heaven, and it's glory, and it's love, for the despite and hatred of Hell. And he gave men choice, and became Satan, and so it is that men are free. Without that freedom, men would not be men. Without that choice, we would be mere contented animals, fattening on God's providence. But, we have freedom. We have choice. We have moral agency. And the reason why men are men, and not innocent animals, and the reason why we are captains of our souls, and the masters of our fates, is because of Lucifer's decision, and Lucifer's sacrifice, and Satan's temptations. We should not love evil, but we can love the creature who gives us the option to be good for the sake of the Good. We can love the angel with that courage who gave us freedom.

Best wishes, 2RM

[Melissa]

Christ did a huge sacrifice for all men to be able to return home. He gave his mortal life and endured much persecution and hatred.
Are you really suggesting that Lucifer sacrificed the same? If so, Lucifers sacrifice is an eternal curse being that he will not receive a mortal body. Christ sacrificed and he has returned and been glorified. Lucifer sacrificed (according to you) but he will not return. That makes his sacrifice for vain. It means nothing according to your thoughts here.

Can we be thankful for a choice, yes. Should we thank lucifer for our ability to chose? No. God gave us agency because he doesn't force us. Men are inherintly good but we are human and subject to selfishness and laziness and hormone swings and urges etc.

I just don't think it wise to be sympathizing with Satan and loving him. Satan persuades no man to do good, no not one! It's a fine line here.

[2ndRateMind]

It's only a fairy story. If it doesn't work for you, reject it.

For me, it seems to be that if I can love the architect of all woes, then I can love anyone. And this seems to me to be what Jesus asks of us.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[Onsdag]

What shall be the name of this fairy tale? I have a suggestion: Quixotic Duplicity.

[2ndRateMind]

How about 'The Origin of Virtue'.

I could make an argument for that, can you for yours?

Cheers, 2RM.

[Onsdag]

Yes, I can.

[2ndRateMind]

Feel free.

Cheers, 2RM

[Onsdag]

What's the point? It's a made up title for a made up fairy tale. ;)

[Rose Garden]

What shall be the name of this fairy tale? I have a suggestion: Quixotic Duplicity.

quix·ot·ic
kwikˈsädik/
adjective
adjective: quixotic

exceedingly idealistic; unrealistic and impractical.
"a vast and perhaps quixotic project"

du·plic·i·ty
d(y)o͞oˈplisədē/
noun
noun: duplicity

1.
deceitfulness; double-dealing.
synonyms: deceitfulness, deceit, deception, double-dealing, underhandedness, dishonesty, fraud, fraudulence, sharp practice, chicanery, trickery, subterfuge, skulduggery, treachery; More
informalcrookedness, shadiness, dirty tricks, shenanigans, monkey business;
literaryperfidy
"he got caught up in the duplicity of his crooked partners"
antonyms: honesty
2.
archaic
doubleness.

[oneClimbs]

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven...

I get what you are doing here but this is beyond the mark. It's not necessary to love or even acknowledge Satan. Placing him on par with Jesus is exactly the kind of thing he'd think up. He didn't fall to give us agency, he fell because he exercised his agency.

"And he gave men choice, and became Satan, and so it is that men are free." Seriously? Our biggest temptations on this earth have to do with wrestling our mortal flesh. Even if there was no devil, if 100% of us kept our first estate, there would still be selfishness, lust, gluttony, etc. There would still be tempters in the form of other human beings, just like there are now. If Satan could develop his own perverted thoughts in heaven, then why can mortals develop their own perverted thoughts on earth?

The lesson here is that corruption can occur in unexalted beings wherever they are. A Baptist Pastor by the name of Paul Washer said:

“So many people I hear say: “Oh, if I just make it to heaven I’ll be secure,” and I always ask them, “Where was the devil when he fell?” It’s not heaven that will make you secure, my friend, it’s being in Christ that makes you secure.”

Satan is no hero. Think about it.

[Sarah]

I understand what your getting at in the OP, but the command to love your enemies is for the benefit of the person loving, and for the benefit for someone who still has a chance of being saved. Satan and his followers have forever lost their chance at letting love work in their life, so there is no duty for us to love them. Most people don't have an intense hatred/bitterness/resentment towards Satan, usually it is for another person in their lives. Those negative feelings eat away at you and bring you down. So, if you have this kind of feeling for Satan, like you can't forgive him for what he has done to you, then by all means, repent of those feelings. But love is an action word. What on earth do you think you need to do to show him that love?

[AI2.0]

It's only a fairy story. If it doesn't work for you, reject it.

For me, it seems to be that if I can love the architect of all woes, then I can love anyone. And this seems to me to be what Jesus asks of us.

Best wishes, 2RM.

I'm familiar with this religious philosophy, it's a gnostic philosophy. It's also one way that some Satan worshipers explain their adoration for Satan. It's pretty obvious who inspired this 'fairy tale'..Satan, of course. The 'father of all lies' who lulls us with his seductious whisperings imploring; "I am no Devil" and unfortunately some foolish souls believe him and ensnare themselves in his power.

Some theologies and theories place Satan as a saviour and a defender of righteousness, and the white light God as an evil oppressor. Most common is the acceptance of Satan as a "true" correct symbol used to represent crisp reality, with God as the negative symbol of delusion. Satanic religions hold to this idea even if they lack the actual belief in a real god or Satan. These are common themes in Satanic music, and are also present in nearly all schools of thought that are labelled as Devil Worship. Some ancient Gnostic religions also hold that the good-seeming god is evil, whereas there are other more obscure good forces in life.

http://www.dpjs.co.uk/righteous.html

In your 'fairy tale' you didn't suggest that God was evil, but that's the natural conclusion. If God allowed a purely, perfectly righteous Satan to be so vilified, to become the embodiment of all the evil in our existence, then that makes God THE MOST evil being in existence.

We should not love evil, but we can love the creature who gives us the option to be good for the sake of the Good. We can love the angel with that courage who gave us freedom.

And you are deceived in believing Satan 'gave' us an option or offered us freedom; Satan did not give us freedom. Satan opposes freedom and his angels and those who serve him have none. If you have any experience with the powers of darkness you'll know Satan seeks to bind and destory us--so that eventually he has us completely in his power. He wants to make us 'angels' to him so that he can rule over us completely.

[Finrock]

Perfect love, is to do good to not just your friends, but to those who are your enemy. God said love all, even those who are the most wicked. It is not evil to have or to aspire to perfect love. It is what God has. He loves the wicked and the righteous equally. He loves all things and is in all things. There must be a compound in one. There can not be light without darkness. There can not be good without evil.

We stress about mortality because we don't like evil or circumstances which are evil or distressing/hard/difficult in nature. Evil exist to in order to reveal who you already are inside. Without evil there would be no glory, no goodness, no rightness. We must love the evil and the good if we are to be good.

All life and all of creation is ultimately good because God created all life and all things and everything God creates is good.

-Finrock

[gclayjr]

2ndRateMind,

It's only a fairy story. If it doesn't work for you, reject it.

For me, it seems to be that if I can love the architect of all woes, then I can love anyone. And this seems to me to be what Jesus asks of us.

Best wishes, 2RM.

For many of us, a major point of our life is to seek out truth. "Making it up as you go" is not a way to discover truth. We have enough confusion based upon different interpretations of accepted sources of truth, like the Bible. That is a major reason why we have hundreds of denominations of Christianity, let alone other religions.

You think this is harmless because YOUR fairly story is love everybody including Satan. But even this is not as harmless as you think, because for you to so recognize him in your own fairy story, he becomes a perfect being. Therefor, no need to recognize or fight against evil, and evil will triumph. It was your own Edmund Burke who said

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

I think I prefer to be more Like Joshua 24:15

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Regards,

George Clay

[2EstablishZion]

Not even an original fairy tale, sounds like Memnoch, the Devil by Anne Rice http://www.amazon.com/Memnoch-Devil-Vam ... il+memnoch" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[gclayjr]

2EstablishZion,

Oh, I didn't realize. Ann Rice...definitely a source of truth to guide my life.

REgards,

George Clay

[Rachael]

" ...Without that freedom, men would not be men. Without that choice, we would be mere contented animals, fattening on God's providence. ..."

I could live with that. Sounds pretty good actually.
Except that's also a fairy tale

[Dash jones]

It's only a fairy story. If it doesn't work for you, reject it.

For me, it seems to be that if I can love the architect of all woes, then I can love anyone. And this seems to me to be what Jesus asks of us.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Yeah, I reject it. Both as a Catholic, and in regards to my studies of LDS doctrine.

LDS theology has that 1/3 the hosts of heaven rebelled...I don't think they did it out of the nicety of their hearts. You can see the hatred they have of Christ in the New Testament...that does not speak of someone who did it out of obligations or loyalty. It shows one that is full of spite and hatred and who would tear down the world and heaven itself if they could. It shows one who has rejected the very essence of heaven in favor of their own pride, lies, and desires.

That's one direction I wouldn't want to try to touch and even go near. All I see in looking in that direction is disaster.

In LDS theology, as he would be a Son of God, he would be loved by his father, but by his own choices to separate himself, he has made himself what he is due to his own selfish and prideful desires. It has nothing to do with love, and everything to do with lust of power and hatred.

[Onsdag]

Perfect love, is to do good to not just your friends, but to those who are your enemy. God said love all, even those who are the most wicked. It is not evil to have or to aspire to perfect love. It is what God has. He loves the wicked and the righteous equally. He loves all things and is in all things. There must be a compound in one. There can not be light without darkness. There can not be good without evil.

We stress about mortality because we don't like evil or circumstances which are evil or distressing/hard/difficult in nature. Evil exist to in order to reveal who you already are inside. Without evil there would be no glory, no goodness, no rightness. We must love the evil and the good if we are to be good.

All life and all of creation is ultimately good because God created all life and all things and everything God creates is good.

-Finrock

Moses 6
55 And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.
56 And it is given unto them to know good from evil; wherefore they are agents unto themselves, and I have given unto you another law and commandment.
57 Wherefore teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence; for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time.

Good and evil, sweet and bitter, light and dark - each one is mutually exclusive of the other. We experience both so that we may become agents for ourselves in choosing which we will accept and embrace. There are real and eternal consequences for what we choose... so choose carefully!

2 Nephi 2
14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.
15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.
16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.
17 And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God.
18 And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.

Again, these things are mutually exclusive. Beware of listening to Satan and his lies. He has absolutely no interest in our eternal welfare.

2 Nephi 15
20 Wo unto them that call evil good, and good evil, that put darkness for light, and light for darkness, that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter

And the Lord has warned us against confusing these things with each other. Again, they are mutually exclusive.

D&C 29
36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;
37 And they were thrust down, and thus came the devil and his angels;
38 And, behold, there is a place prepared for them from the beginning, which place is hell.
39 And it must needs be that the devil should tempt the children of men, or they could not be agents unto themselves; for if they never should have bitter they could not know the sweet
40 Wherefore, it came to pass that the devil tempted Adam, and he partook of the forbidden fruit and transgressed the commandment, wherein he became subject to the will of the devil, because he yielded unto temptation.
41 Wherefore, I, the Lord God, caused that he should be cast out from the Garden of Eden, from my presence, because of his transgression, wherein he became spiritually dead, which is the first death, even that same death which is the last death, which is spiritual, which shall be pronounced upon the wicked when I shall say: Depart, ye cursed.
42 But, behold, I say unto you that I, the Lord God, gave unto Adam and unto his seed, that they should not die as to the temporal death, until I, the Lord God, should send forth angels to declare unto them repentance and redemption, through faith on the name of mine Only Begotten Son.
43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe;
44 And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not;
45 For they love darkness rather than light, and their deeds are evil, and they receive their wages of whom they list to obey.

We will receive wages of him who we embrace and follow. Do not let Satan deceive you with his lies. He has no interest in our well-being and instead seeks our eternal damnation.

And as for the commandment to love others, Elder Jeffrey R. Holland taught in the April 2014 General Conference:

At the zenith of His mortal ministry, Jesus said, “Love one another, as I have loved you.” To make certain they understood exactly what kind of love that was, He said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments” and “whosoever … shall break one of [the] least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be … the least in the kingdom of heaven.” Christlike love is the greatest need we have on this planet in part because righteousness was always supposed to accompany it. So if love is to be our watchword, as it must be, then by the word of Him who is love personified, we must forsake transgression and any hint of advocacy for it in others. Jesus clearly understood what many in our modern culture seem to forget: that there is a crucial difference between the commandment to forgive sin (which He had an infinite capacity to do) and the warning against condoning it (which He never ever did even once).

[2ndRateMind]

So, my little story was about an angel who does bad for good reasons. If we can love the motivation, however misconceived, it seems to me we can love the embodiment of that motivation. But, if we can't, how can we love our enemies, those people who do bad for good reasons, or who do bad for bad reasons? It seems to me we need to find some evidence of good in our enemies, to be able to love them. Demonising them, proving to ourselves that our enemies are only bad, and that bad throughout, seems to me to defeat the objective Jesus's direct injunction, as quoted in the OP. Humanity is God's creation, made to love. It is not Satan's creation, as if made to hate, however much easier we may at first find Satan's temptation.

Cheers, 2RM.

[Finrock]

I believe God loves Satan and all his devils.

-Finrock

[2ndRateMind]

" ...Without that freedom, men would not be men. Without that choice, we would be mere contented animals, fattening on God's providence. ..."

I could live with that. Sounds pretty good actually.
Except that's also a fairy tale

Yes, I'm sorry it's just a story. But I think we would pretty soon be mortally bored, were there no evils in the world to measure ourselves against, and fight to end. It may sound paradoxical, but I truly believe the world is perfect, the best of all possible worlds, because it is imperfect.

Cheers, 2RM.

[2ndRateMind]

It's only a fairy story. If it doesn't work for you, reject it.

For me, it seems to be that if I can love the architect of all woes, then I can love anyone. And this seems to me to be what Jesus asks of us.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Yeah, I reject it. Both as a Catholic, and in regards to my studies of LDS doctrine.

LDS theology has that 1/3 the hosts of heaven rebelled...I don't think they did it out of the nicety of their hearts. You can see the hatred they have of Christ in the New Testament...that does not speak of someone who did it out of obligations or loyalty. It shows one that is full of spite and hatred and who would tear down the world and heaven itself if they could. It shows one who has rejected the very essence of heaven in favor of their own pride, lies, and desires.

That's one direction I wouldn't want to try to touch and even go near. All I see in looking in that direction is disaster.

In LDS theology, as he would be a Son of God, he would be loved by his father, but by his own choices to separate himself, he has made himself what he is due to his own selfish and prideful desires. It has nothing to do with love, and everything to do with lust of power and hatred.

It's OK. I can take refutation! The story was to promote discussion.

So, it seems to me that we can always ascribe motivation, but only within the bounds of our own experience, and natures. If we are evil, we are bound to assign evil to others. If we are good, etc. Only if we are immortally wise, can we be sure of total wisdom in respect of others. I merely wanted, with the fairy tale, to ruffle some feathers, and disturb some complacencies.

Cheers, 2RM