UnChrist-Like Accusations

[Vision]

Alma was one of the wicked priests of King Noah. King Noah and his wicked priests practiced their wrong version of religion and left out Christ. Abinidi was sent to warn them. Fortunately, Alma listened.

The church in Zarahemla, under King Benjamin and King Mosiah was doing fine.

Don't take things out of context.

This is where I disagree. Why would Christ have a church with organization, including apostles and prophets, and then give passes to those born again to "compete" against it?

Alma the Elder appointed teachers and gave instruction on what they should teach. In all the BOM, there is organization and church.

Alma the elder started a new church after he was inspired by the words of Abinadi. What was wrong with the church that Alma was one of the leaders of that he needed to go start another church?

The context is that Moroni was inspired to include the Abinadi story in the abridgment for some reason. Could that reason be a warning men can lead people astray? Tie this with the warnings recorded in 2nd nephi 28 about trusting in the arm of flesh. Add in 1st Kings 13 where a prophet of god led another prophet of god astray. Finally Mormon warns that every church is corrupted in Mormon 8:36.

[Vision]

My main objective is to testify that Jesus is the Christ. I know that the Church is not Christ and neither are any of the men and women, our brothers and sisters in the Church, none of them are Christ. I testify that no prophet or apostle can save you. I testify that Jesus Christ is the Master of all. He is my King and He has saved me from death and hell. I pleaded with men. I looked to women. I looked to doctors. I looked all over and found no relief. I cried out in agony. In my misery, in my own nothingness, I called out to God and for His Son to have mercy upon me. It was at that time and not before when I was released from my agony. I was overwhelmed by His love. It filled me where I lost my strength. I could only thank Heavenly Father for His gift. I could only thank Him.

Jesus Christ is my Savior. I look to Him. I know who has saved me. It is Jesus Christ.

-Finrock

+1

Amen

[deep water]

God had a special relasonship with those who truly served him. The lord depended upon them to preach his true Gospel to the people, no matter the conquences, and they depended upon the Lord for all their daily needs. The lord had faith that they would do their job and they had faith that the Lord would keep his promise, and provide their needs. The Lord commanded them to go without purse or script, taking no thought for tomorrow, what they should eat or what they should wear.
They were no longer under the Law, but guided by the spirit. So if they sinned they sinned against the spirit, for it commanded them to turn right or left and they did so. They did not seek or accept compensation for their labors here on this earth. They did not seek or accept aclaim or notoriety. They humbly went too and fro. They knew Christs Gospel and stored their treasures in heaven, where thieves can not break through and steal.
If they had or did seek or accept compensation from man, as Nehor suggested they deserved. What would have been the message they were sending to Christ? Wouldn't they be declairing (Christ you are an unjust master, for I labor for you, and I do not trust you, nor have faith in your words, to supply my living as you promiced.) Therefore I must seek compensation as Nehor suggested. Isn't this what the Lord would hear?
What did Christ tell one of his disciples to do with money he had collected from the people? Is God a changable God?

[rewcox]

Mosiah, King Benjamin's father, was inspired to leave the land of Nephi, moving to safety.

Zeniff was over zealous and led people back to the land of Nephi, in a precarious situation. Over time the leaders and people apostatized.

Abinidi was sent to warn the leaders and people to change, or they would become in bondage. They did become in bondage, it cost a lot of lives.

It isn't about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. The church and leaders were doing fine in Zarahemla.

It is about people who do dumb things and get themselves into bondage, and the Savior sending someone to help try to get them out.

Alma was one of the wicked priests of King Noah. King Noah and his wicked priests practiced their wrong version of religion and left out Christ. Abinidi was sent to warn them. Fortunately, Alma listened.

The church in Zarahemla, under King Benjamin and King Mosiah was doing fine.

Don't take things out of context.

This is where I disagree. Why would Christ have a church with organization, including apostles and prophets, and then give passes to those born again to "compete" against it?

Alma the Elder appointed teachers and gave instruction on what they should teach. In all the BOM, there is organization and church.

Alma the elder started a new church after he was inspired by the words of Abinadi. What was wrong with the church that Alma was one of the leaders of that he needed to go start another church?

The context is that Moroni was inspired to include the Abinadi story in the abridgment for some reason. Could that reason be a warning men can lead people astray? Tie this with the warnings recorded in 2nd nephi 28 about trusting in the arm of flesh. Add in 1st Kings 13 where a prophet of god led another prophet of god astray. Finally Mormon warns that every church is corrupted in Mormon 8:36.

[rewcox]

Don't discount the church. Christ set it up with apostles and prophets in his day. It was restored and setup with apostles and prophets in our day.

My main objective is to testify that Jesus is the Christ. I know that the Church is not Christ and neither are any of the men and women, our brothers and sisters in the Church, none of them are Christ. I testify that no prophet or apostle can save you. I testify that Jesus Christ is the Master of all. He is my King and He has saved me from death and hell. I pleaded with men. I looked to women. I looked to doctors. I looked all over and found no relief. I cried out in agony. In my misery, in my own nothingness, I called out to God and for His Son to have mercy upon me. It was at that time and not before when I was released from my agony. I was overwhelmed by His love. It filled me where I lost my strength. I could only thank Heavenly Father for His gift. I could only thank Him.

Jesus Christ is my Savior. I look to Him. I know who has saved me. It is Jesus Christ.

-Finrock

+1

[rewcox]

The context is that Moroni was inspired to include the Abinadi story in the abridgment for some reason. Could that reason be a warning men can lead people astray? Tie this with the warnings recorded in 2nd nephi 28 about trusting in the arm of flesh. Add in 1st Kings 13 where a prophet of god led another prophet of god astray. Finally Mormon warns that every church is corrupted in Mormon 8:36.

This is the difference. Some folks say every church is corrupted. They use this to say the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is corrupted.

The reality is some of the members of the church have veered.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is Christ's church, complete with His apostles and prophets.

Don't trust in your own arm of flesh.

[Rose Garden]

I have had a tendency in the past to either look past or agree with what others are saying because I believed this person was a "liberal" or they were "conservative" or they were "anti-" or they were...

The point being that it is easy to brush off what someone is saying when you only see them as a label or as falling in to some category. Its like when we see a person who is drunk, we might say in our hearts, that person is just a "drunk". If we were to do that then we would be making in error in our thinking. The person, no matter what, is not just a "drunk". Before anything else they are a son or daughter of God and this demands our respect and our honor. We should never treat others with anything other than loving kindness, respect, and honor.

I am a sensitive person when it comes to fairness. I hate being unfair and I hate witnessing unfair things. I have a hard time not reacting when I perceive someone being unfair, unreasonable, or just plain mean spirited. Special pleading happens a lot and it is hard for me to understand. People will special plead when they are loyal to something or someone other than Jesus Christ.

Intellectual honesty is a Christ-like attribute. Mormons ought to be the examples of this atrribute in the world. It so easy to paste a label on someone and pretending that this justifies one from honestly and sincerely considering the words of another person or to esteem them as an enemy. That is really what it comes down to. Once you place a label you create an enemy. A them. And now one feels justified in being unfair, unkind, unChrist-like, because they are defending against an "enemy". This is just a trick though by Satan. The truth is that we should love all, even our enemies, whether real or perceived.

Reason, fairness, kindness, etc. should be the natural disposition of all Latter-day Saints. It seems like Mormons should be especially sensitive to avoid persecutions and accusations and the belittling of another's testimony or witness.

-Finrock

Well put! Would you have a problem with me reporting this elsewhere on the internet?

[AI2.0]

My main objective is to testify that Jesus is the Christ. I know that the Church is not Christ and neither are any of the men and women, our brothers and sisters in the Church, none of them are Christ. I testify that no prophet or apostle can save you. I testify that Jesus Christ is the Master of all. He is my King and He has saved me from death and hell. I pleaded with men. I looked to women. I looked to doctors. I looked all over and found no relief. I cried out in agony. In my misery, in my own nothingness, I called out to God and for His Son to have mercy upon me. It was at that time and not before when I was released from my agony. I was overwhelmed by His love. It filled me where I lost my strength. I could only thank Heavenly Father for His gift. I could only thank Him.

Jesus Christ is my Savior. I look to Him. I know who has saved me. It is Jesus Christ.

-Finrock

I agree with most of your post, except some of it has me perplexed; I assume that as you refer to 'the church' you mean the LDS church, but this doesn't fit. I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints. I've never been taught nor believed that The church is Christ and that the men and women in the church are Christ. I've never been taught that a prophet or apostles can save you. They are the Lord's servants to teach us, just has he called 'servants'--Apostles when he carried out his ministry on earth.

The CofJCofLDS teaches me to look to my Savior, Jesus Christ to be redeemed. It is set up in a pattern which is meant to help us find this truth and be saved.

Christ also set up his church with Apostles and ordinances and he taught the people the way to return to God. I see this same pattern within the LDS structure.

[AI2.0]

This is where I disagree. Why would Christ have a church with organization, including apostles and prophets, and then give passes to those born again to "compete" against it?

Alma the Elder appointed teachers and gave instruction on what they should teach. In all the BOM, there is organization and church.

Alma the elder started a new church after he was inspired by the words of Abinadi. What was wrong with the church that Alma was one of the leaders of that he needed to go start another church?

It was corrupt and their community was eventually destroyed by the Lamanites--their priests and their King killed or in hiding. Alma repented and preached and baptized in hiding near the waters of Mormon.
He organized the church because he had Authority from God and it was necessary to do so. Is says this in Mosiah 18:18.


Is the LDS church corrupt?

IF it is corrupt, does anyone have authority from God to start a new church?

[Zathura]

My main objective is to testify that Jesus is the Christ. I know that the Church is not Christ and neither are any of the men and women, our brothers and sisters in the Church, none of them are Christ. I testify that no prophet or apostle can save you. I testify that Jesus Christ is the Master of all. He is my King and He has saved me from death and hell. I pleaded with men. I looked to women. I looked to doctors. I looked all over and found no relief. I cried out in agony. In my misery, in my own nothingness, I called out to God and for His Son to have mercy upon me. It was at that time and not before when I was released from my agony. I was overwhelmed by His love. It filled me where I lost my strength. I could only thank Heavenly Father for His gift. I could only thank Him.

Jesus Christ is my Savior. I look to Him. I know who has saved me. It is Jesus Christ.

-Finrock

I agree with most of your post, except some of it has me perplexed; I assume that as you refer to 'the church' you mean the LDS church, but this doesn't fit. I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints. I've never been taught nor believed that The church is Christ and that the men and women in the church are Christ. I've never been taught that a prophet or apostles can save you. They are the Lord's servants to teach us, just has he called 'servants'--Apostles when he carried out his ministry on earth.

The CofJCofLDS teaches me to look to my Savior, Jesus Christ to be redeemed. It is set up in a pattern which is meant to help us find this truth and be saved.

Christ also set up his church with Apostles and ordinances and he taught the people the way to return to God. I see this same pattern within the LDS structure.

That's perfect

Do you not see a problem that I see though?
Finrock said something wonderful, praising Jesus our Lord, and there is still retaliation.
"But the Church!"
"But the Church!"

Wonderful, I like the church, I go to church, I watch General Conference but it's Jesus that saves me.

"But the church! The church gave you all this!"

To me, this looks like
Church = Jesus

This is wrong to me

[Zathura]

This is where I disagree. Why would Christ have a church with organization, including apostles and prophets, and then give passes to those born again to "compete" against it?

Alma the Elder appointed teachers and gave instruction on what they should teach. In all the BOM, there is organization and church.

Alma the elder started a new church after he was inspired by the words of Abinadi. What was wrong with the church that Alma was one of the leaders of that he needed to go start another church?

It was corrupt and their community was eventually destroyed by the Lamanites--their priests and their King killed or in hiding. Alma repented and preached and baptized in hiding near the waters of Mormon.
He organized the church because he had Authority from God and it was necessary to do so. Is says this in Mosiah 18:18.


Is the LDS church corrupt?

IF it is corrupt, does anyone have authority from God to start a new church?

Where did he get authority?

[Zathura]

My main objective is to testify that Jesus is the Christ. I know that the Church is not Christ and neither are any of the men and women, our brothers and sisters in the Church, none of them are Christ. I testify that no prophet or apostle can save you. I testify that Jesus Christ is the Master of all. He is my King and He has saved me from death and hell. I pleaded with men. I looked to women. I looked to doctors. I looked all over and found no relief. I cried out in agony. In my misery, in my own nothingness, I called out to God and for His Son to have mercy upon me. It was at that time and not before when I was released from my agony. I was overwhelmed by His love. It filled me where I lost my strength. I could only thank Heavenly Father for His gift. I could only thank Him.

Jesus Christ is my Savior. I look to Him. I know who has saved me. It is Jesus Christ.

-Finrock

I agree with most of your post, except some of it has me perplexed; I assume that as you refer to 'the church' you mean the LDS church, but this doesn't fit. I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints. I've never been taught nor believed that The church is Christ and that the men and women in the church are Christ. I've never been taught that a prophet or apostles can save you. They are the Lord's servants to teach us, just has he called 'servants'--Apostles when he carried out his ministry on earth.

The CofJCofLDS teaches me to look to my Savior, Jesus Christ to be redeemed. It is set up in a pattern which is meant to help us find this truth and be saved.

Christ also set up his church with Apostles and ordinances and he taught the people the way to return to God. I see this same pattern within the LDS structure.

That's perfect

Do you not see a problem that I see though?
Finrock said something wonderful, praising Jesus our Lord, and there is still retaliation.
"But the Church!"
"But the Church!"

Wonderful, I like the church, I go to church, I watch General Conference but it's Jesus that saves me.

"But the church! The church gave you all this!"

To me, this looks like
Church = Jesus

This is wrong to me

What is idolatry?
Does it only apply to statues?

It applies to anything.
If you love your Iphone too much, it eventually becomes idolatry. If you get too attached to your earthly possessions, those possessions become your "god", and you begin to "worship" that "god", breaking the command that Jehovah gave us, that we should worship only him.

If you get too attached to another human being, you may begin to idolize him, and he may become your "god"

If you get too attached to an organization(The Church) and attribute all of your blessings to the church instead of God, you begin idolizing the church, the church becomes your "god".

How often do sinners recognize their sin? How often does a Catholic believe they are committing idolatry if they pray to a Saint?
How often will a member recognize that they have begun idolizing a leader, or the church, to the point that it becomes idolatry?
Rarely.
Is the church an Idol? No.. can it become one for you if you aren't careful? Yes.

[iWriteStuff]

Is it ok if I point out that a thread about being UnChrist-like has become UnChrist-like with back and forth contentions?

I think we could sum up the current argument as follows:

"Christ" is not the same as Church, but Christ has a Church.

The rest is just quibbling about whether the church is true or not, in apostasy or not, etc. And we've got plenty of threads on that already.

[Vision]

The context is that Moroni was inspired to include the Abinadi story in the abridgment for some reason. Could that reason be a warning men can lead people astray? Tie this with the warnings recorded in 2nd nephi 28 about trusting in the arm of flesh. Add in 1st Kings 13 where a prophet of god led another prophet of god astray. Finally Mormon warns that every church is corrupted in Mormon 8:36.

This is the difference. Some folks say every church is corrupted. They use this to say the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is corrupted.

The reality is some of the members of the church have veered.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is Christ's church, complete with His apostles and prophets.

Don't trust in your own arm of flesh.

I'm trusting in the holy ghost that witnessed to me the truthfulness of the scriptures I referenced

[AI2.0]

This is where I disagree. Why would Christ have a church with organization, including apostles and prophets, and then give passes to those born again to "compete" against it?

Alma the Elder appointed teachers and gave instruction on what they should teach. In all the BOM, there is organization and church.

Alma the elder started a new church after he was inspired by the words of Abinadi. What was wrong with the church that Alma was one of the leaders of that he needed to go start another church?

It was corrupt and their community was eventually destroyed by the Lamanites--their priests and their King killed or in hiding. Alma repented and preached and baptized in hiding near the waters of Mormon.
He organized the church because he had Authority from God and it was necessary to do so. Is says this in Mosiah 18:18.


Is the LDS church corrupt?

IF it is corrupt, does anyone have authority from God to start a new church?

Where did he get authority?

Did you read Mosiah 18:18? I referred to it because it answers your question.

[Sarah]

My main objective is to testify that Jesus is the Christ. I know that the Church is not Christ and neither are any of the men and women, our brothers and sisters in the Church, none of them are Christ. I testify that no prophet or apostle can save you. I testify that Jesus Christ is the Master of all. He is my King and He has saved me from death and hell. I pleaded with men. I looked to women. I looked to doctors. I looked all over and found no relief. I cried out in agony. In my misery, in my own nothingness, I called out to God and for His Son to have mercy upon me. It was at that time and not before when I was released from my agony. I was overwhelmed by His love. It filled me where I lost my strength. I could only thank Heavenly Father for His gift. I could only thank Him.

Jesus Christ is my Savior. I look to Him. I know who has saved me. It is Jesus Christ.

-Finrock

I agree with most of your post, except some of it has me perplexed; I assume that as you refer to 'the church' you mean the LDS church, but this doesn't fit. I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints. I've never been taught nor believed that The church is Christ and that the men and women in the church are Christ. I've never been taught that a prophet or apostles can save you. They are the Lord's servants to teach us, just has he called 'servants'--Apostles when he carried out his ministry on earth.

The CofJCofLDS teaches me to look to my Savior, Jesus Christ to be redeemed. It is set up in a pattern which is meant to help us find this truth and be saved.

Christ also set up his church with Apostles and ordinances and he taught the people the way to return to God. I see this same pattern within the LDS structure.

That's perfect

Do you not see a problem that I see though?
Finrock said something wonderful, praising Jesus our Lord, and there is still retaliation.
"But the Church!"
"But the Church!"

Wonderful, I like the church, I go to church, I watch General Conference but it's Jesus that saves me.

"But the church! The church gave you all this!"

To me, this looks like
Church = Jesus

This is wrong to me

The Church is the Lord's bride. You can either be "married" to him (covenant relationship) or not. If you are not a part of his bride, where are you? Christ does not just want people to be in love with him, (praise), he also wants people to enter into a heavenly sanctioned relationship with him. That is what the ordinances are all about. If you make a covenant at baptism but don't feel "born again" until you actually start living that covenant, it would be similar to a couple getting married, but not actually feeling true love or that their marriage is sealed by the Holy Spirit until they started living and keeping their marriage covenant. That is where the true love is. Everyone is at a different place in how well they are keeping their baptismal covenants.

[AI2.0]

My main objective is to testify that Jesus is the Christ. I know that the Church is not Christ and neither are any of the men and women, our brothers and sisters in the Church, none of them are Christ. I testify that no prophet or apostle can save you. I testify that Jesus Christ is the Master of all. He is my King and He has saved me from death and hell. I pleaded with men. I looked to women. I looked to doctors. I looked all over and found no relief. I cried out in agony. In my misery, in my own nothingness, I called out to God and for His Son to have mercy upon me. It was at that time and not before when I was released from my agony. I was overwhelmed by His love. It filled me where I lost my strength. I could only thank Heavenly Father for His gift. I could only thank Him.

Jesus Christ is my Savior. I look to Him. I know who has saved me. It is Jesus Christ.

-Finrock

I agree with most of your post, except some of it has me perplexed; I assume that as you refer to 'the church' you mean the LDS church, but this doesn't fit. I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints. I've never been taught nor believed that The church is Christ and that the men and women in the church are Christ. I've never been taught that a prophet or apostles can save you. They are the Lord's servants to teach us, just has he called 'servants'--Apostles when he carried out his ministry on earth.

The CofJCofLDS teaches me to look to my Savior, Jesus Christ to be redeemed. It is set up in a pattern which is meant to help us find this truth and be saved.

Christ also set up his church with Apostles and ordinances and he taught the people the way to return to God. I see this same pattern within the LDS structure.

That's perfect

Do you not see a problem that I see though?
Finrock said something wonderful, praising Jesus our Lord, and there is still retaliation.My response: Finrock made statements about members of the LDS church which were not true. Did you expect me to ignore them? While I agree, we'll have a lot more peace and less contention if I just ignore it, but I'm sorry, I don't like to see my beliefs misrepresented. If I was on a message board that was not supposed to support the LDS church, I would let it slide. If I was on a forum for people who believe the church is false or corrupt, I'd let it go. That is not the case here.
"But the Church!"
"But the Church!"

Wonderful, I like the church, I go to church, I watch General Conference but it's Jesus that saves me.

"But the church! The church gave you all this!" The 'church' DID give you all this. The church is a feast, where you don't get to pick and choose what you do and don't want to eat. You also don't get to reject the feast, saying it's bad, then come back in and pick out certain dishes you want, take those and to it from you own larder. You don't get to claim that your cobbled together feast is excellent and ignore the fact that your 'feast' would not have existed without the initial feast you rejected and took from.

To me, this looks like
Church = Jesus

This is wrong to me

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints. It was restored by Joseph Smith Jr., and like a stone cut out of the mountain without hands, it will eventually fill the whole earth--because it is based on Continuing revelation and a living Prophet/Apostles and authority from God through priesthood, at the head. It IS the one and only true church (also found in D&C--the Lord said this) and it holds the keys and authority to bring us back to live with our Heavenly Father again.

A person cannot reject the truth claims of the church without rejecting the Church--which is Christ's true gospel on earth.


The church doesn't equal Jesus, Jesus is a real, separate person--a member of the Godhead and this is his church, his organization on earth. The church IS his true church and teaches us the WAY to return to live with him for eternity.

The contention and problems on this board come about because some people here do not believe the CofJCofLDS is Christ's true church on earth and they try to influence others to believe as they do.

[Zathura]

Is it ok if I point out that a thread about being UnChrist-like has become UnChrist-like with back and forth contentions?

I think we could sum up the current argument as follows:

"Christ" is not the same as Church, but Christ has a Church.

The rest is just quibbling about whether the church is true or not, in apostasy or not, etc. And we've got plenty of threads on that already.

I didn't realize that this has become contentious. I'm not accusing anybody of anything, I was just discussing the topic that was brought up.
Sorry if anybody else feels contention.

[Zathura]

My main objective is to testify that Jesus is the Christ. I know that the Church is not Christ and neither are any of the men and women, our brothers and sisters in the Church, none of them are Christ. I testify that no prophet or apostle can save you. I testify that Jesus Christ is the Master of all. He is my King and He has saved me from death and hell. I pleaded with men. I looked to women. I looked to doctors. I looked all over and found no relief. I cried out in agony. In my misery, in my own nothingness, I called out to God and for His Son to have mercy upon me. It was at that time and not before when I was released from my agony. I was overwhelmed by His love. It filled me where I lost my strength. I could only thank Heavenly Father for His gift. I could only thank Him.

Jesus Christ is my Savior. I look to Him. I know who has saved me. It is Jesus Christ.

-Finrock

I agree with most of your post, except some of it has me perplexed; I assume that as you refer to 'the church' you mean the LDS church, but this doesn't fit. I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints. I've never been taught nor believed that The church is Christ and that the men and women in the church are Christ. I've never been taught that a prophet or apostles can save you. They are the Lord's servants to teach us, just has he called 'servants'--Apostles when he carried out his ministry on earth.

The CofJCofLDS teaches me to look to my Savior, Jesus Christ to be redeemed. It is set up in a pattern which is meant to help us find this truth and be saved.

Christ also set up his church with Apostles and ordinances and he taught the people the way to return to God. I see this same pattern within the LDS structure.

That's perfect

Do you not see a problem that I see though?
Finrock said something wonderful, praising Jesus our Lord, and there is still retaliation.My response: Finrock made statements about members of the LDS church which were not true. Did you expect me to ignore them? While I agree, we'll have a lot more peace and less contention if I just ignore it, but I'm sorry, I don't like to see my beliefs misrepresented. If I was on a message board that was not supposed to support the LDS church, I would let it slide. If I was on a forum for people who believe the church is false or corrupt, I'd let it go. That is not the case here.
"But the Church!"
"But the Church!"

Wonderful, I like the church, I go to church, I watch General Conference but it's Jesus that saves me.

"But the church! The church gave you all this!" The 'church' DID give you all this. The church is a feast, where you don't get to pick and choose what you do and don't want to eat. You also don't get to reject the feast, saying it's bad, then come back in and pick out certain dishes you want, take those and to it from you own larder. You don't get to claim that your cobbled together feast is excellent and ignore the fact that your 'feast' would not have existed without the initial feast you rejected and took from.

To me, this looks like
Church = Jesus

This is wrong to me

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints. It was restored by Joseph Smith Jr., and like a stone cut out of the mountain without hands, it will eventually fill the whole earth--because it is based on Continuing revelation and a living Prophet/Apostles and authority from God through priesthood, at the head. It IS the one and only true church (also found in D&C--the Lord said this) and it holds the keys and authority to bring us back to live with our Heavenly Father again.

A person cannot reject the truth claims of the church without rejecting the Church--which is Christ's true gospel on earth.


The church doesn't equal Jesus, Jesus is a real, separate person--a member of the Godhead and this is his church, his organization on earth. The church IS his true church and teaches us the WAY to return to live with him for eternity.

The contention and problems on this board come about because some people here do not believe the CofJCofLDS is Christ's true church on earth and they try to influence others to believe as they do.

Take note, I'm not rejecting the church. I'm not saying anything about the church is false.

I'm saying that it's a problem if you emphasize the church too much.

I don't agree that the church gives me everything. Having this perspective gives the church credit that it doesn't deserve. God gave us everything. The Church is one of the things God gave us. Everything that is done within the church, was given to us by God, not the church.

It's a tiny detail, but I think that the perspective matters. The church is still an earthly organization, and I think it's problematic to start giving credit to an earthly organization instead of God.

Having the perspective that it's all from God, he blesses us, causes us to praise him and give him all glory.
Having the perspective that the Church gives us everything, causes us to praise the church and church leaders, and then God.

[Zathura]

All in all, there have been a lot of really good comments on this thread. I'm grateful for everyone and their comments.

[Separatist]

Isn't pointing out an un-Christ-like accusation an un-Christ-like accusation?

[Zathura]

Isn't pointing out an un-Christ-like accusation an un-Christ-like accusation?

Looking back, yes..

[rewcox]

The context is that Moroni was inspired to include the Abinadi story in the abridgment for some reason. Could that reason be a warning men can lead people astray? Tie this with the warnings recorded in 2nd nephi 28 about trusting in the arm of flesh. Add in 1st Kings 13 where a prophet of god led another prophet of god astray. Finally Mormon warns that every church is corrupted in Mormon 8:36.

This is the difference. Some folks say every church is corrupted. They use this to say the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is corrupted.

The reality is some of the members of the church have veered.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is Christ's church, complete with His apostles and prophets.

Don't trust in your own arm of flesh.

I'm trusting in the holy ghost that witnessed to me the truthfulness of the scriptures I referenced

Everyone has the right to their own opinion. This puts you at odds with the church and leadership.

[rewcox]

I'm excited that iWriteStuff has learned Large!

Is it ok if I point out that a thread about being UnChrist-like has become UnChrist-like with back and forth contentions?

I think we could sum up the current argument as follows:

"Christ" is not the same as Church, but Christ has a Church.

The rest is just quibbling about whether the church is true or not, in apostasy or not, etc. And we've got plenty of threads on that already.

I didn't realize that this has become contentious. I'm not accusing anybody of anything, I was just discussing the topic that was brought up.
Sorry if anybody else feels contention.

[Finrock]

AI2.0,

I am an active, faithful member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I am a Mormon. I made no "statements about members of the LDS church which were not true." I just shared with you and all who read my testimony.

Because of the accusations you have made against me it is important for you to recognize that I am faithful, loyal, active, tithe paying, temple recommend holder/attending, who serves in my current calling and all of my callings, never turned down a calling, always trying my best. I love the Church. I am not your enemy. You do not need to become defensive and try to tear down my testimony. I am on your side and on the side of the Church. The Church taught me to live by the Spirit. The Church taught me that the Spirit matters most. The Church taught me that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not the same as the Church. The Church taught me to look to Christ and non-else. The Church is the one who taught me that it is just a vehicle to bring me to Christ. I am finally starting to do what the Church has asked me to do and it is confusing to me to be labelled as someone who is against the Church.

I have been saved by Jesus Christ and all can be saved and be born again. This is good news and I share this freely and lovingly and sincerely.

-Finrock