UnChrist-Like Accusations

[Zathura]

Yeah, I have like 5 aliases

I hope that's not true, or I've got four more to block...

Sarcasm, sorry

[Zathura]

Tell me the meaning of those scriptures then Rewcox.
You reject our understanding of it, so you tell me what you think it means.

I know you're addressing rewcox, but I have a question-
Who are those polluting the church and how are they doing it? Moroni has the answer if you need help.

Also, just for kicks, I wonder what Joseph thought about those verses as he was restoring the church? Do you suppose those verses were invalid and not applicable at first? Well, "at first" I mean when the church was restored, not when the BoM was translated which was before the church was restored

I'm not sure exactly WHO is polluting the church.
I just know that Elder Perry had an understanding that Moroni was talking to us, members of the church.

You do make a good point though.

I'd like you to answer your own question . I don't really have an answer, I have no set opinion on what your question is about.
What do you think?

[Dash jones]

Dash, a testimony of the Book of Mormon is best received spiritually. Hugh Nibley is regarded as one of the best Mormon scholars of all time.

Here is a link that is a great read on background on the Nephi books, Lehi in the Deseret

Enjoy.

Thank you for the link to the book, It may take a while for me to read through it. Thank you though.

[freedomforall]

Those who reject it will end up in hell. Then after they have suffered for their own sins, they then will go into the Telestial kingdom and remain there. See D&C 76.
Those who accept the gospel but are not valiant in it receive the Terrestrial world. Again, D&C 76 for clearer details. Those that have never had the gospel presented to them, yet would have lived it to their very best still inherit the Celestial kingdom.
Anyway, for those making such claims yet tearing down the church and its leaders...I have to wonder about that

Errr...uhhhmmmm....

Beyond the fact that I was just told I was going to hell...

:ymdevil:

I think that is somewhat of an opinion (not a bad one mind you). I was under the impression that they can reject it in this life, but if they accept it in the next, all that is needed is that baptism. Those in the Terrestrial Kingdom are those

https://www.lds.org/topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Generally speaking, individuals in the terrestrial kingdom will be honorable people “who were blinded by the craftiness of men” (D&C 76:75). This group will include members of the Church who were “not valiant in the testimony of Jesus” (D&C 76:79). It will also include those who rejected the opportunity to receive the gospel in mortality but who later received it in the postmortal spirit world (see D&C 76:73-74). To learn more about those who will inherit terrestrial glory, see Doctrine and Covenants 76:71-80, 91, 97.

Isn't rejecting the "opportunity" different from rejecting the gospel after having heard it? You not only heard about it, but are also studying and learning about it because you used your opportunity to do so. I forget sometimes that there are folks here that may be lacking some of the fine points and the not so nice fine points of the gospel. The Lord lays it out there rather candidly. D&C 76 is a good way to learn both. Sorry if I offended you.

So, it could include those who reject it in this life according to Mormonism from what I understand.

On another note, I think rewcox and many others are on the same page, but maybe just arguing semantics.

I think it is absolutely correct from LDS doctrine that what the Holy Ghost tells you takes precedence over that of other mens, even apostles. That is correct.

Alma 12:9
9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.


HOWEVER (and this is a BIG one) accordingly with LDS doctrine, as long as the LDS church is the Lords and those men are the Lord's servants, the Holy Ghost is only going to confirm that they ARE his servants and that the DOCTRINE (opinions are another matter, but you should be certain which are opinions, and which are the true teachings that they are giving out before declaring something false) they teach is true. Correct. They should not be teaching what scripture cannot corroborate...unless the Spirit confirms it in your heart and mind that it is true and to heed it. This is the method by which we all learn, through the Spirit.

As per LDS doctrine (so, what the LDS Mormons have, not necessarily what others have)...if you feel the Holy Spirit is saying something opposite of church doctrine...you MIGHT want to check what spirit you are listing to, or what your source is. Close. The Spirit will not teach anything opposite or out of sync of what Christ has taught because they are one in mind. They, the Godhead, know each others thoughts and always corroborate each other. This is termed as being "one". We're also told to be "one" with Christ.

I'm not saying anyone here is like that, but that the Holy Spirit (as per Mormonism) will NOT contradict itself, and hence, if the source of the Holy Spirit is as the LDS say it is, then it is NOT going to contradict doctrine that it's leaders are going to teach. The whole idea is to learn from the Holy who will not teach or confirm false doctrine. Man, on the other hand, are prone to making assumptions of what they think they learned from scripture and hold onto that false doctrine and sometimes refuse to be taught anything else pertaining to that point...their mind is made up. Satan has his way of keeping people out of the know; he knows every trick in the book in order to trip us up. When we truly learn through the Spirit of God, we will be expanded and joyful, not left guessing as to whom just said something in our ear.

However, it is fully doctrine that the Holy Spirit takes precedence over the leaders statements. You should be aware of how it works supposedly though. The Holy Ghost does not contradict itself, nor true doctrine of the Lord. In that light, Rewcox is correct, as are the others, and there should be no need for everyone to be trying to argue about it from where I see it. If our mind and heart are willing to learn and do, this is all God expects of us ...for now. There are, however, some folks taking ideas and notions from many decades ago and passing it on as fact for those today, even though subsequent teachings say it is false doctrine.

A prime example of listening or heeding the spirit was given in the early days of the LDS church. It was said after Joseph Smith died, that When Brigham Young stood up the mantle of Joseph Smith fell upon him. Those who had the Spirit had it confirmed to them (from what I understand) that HE was the legitimate leader of the Church at this time...THAT is why the overwhelming majority (but NOT ALL by far) followed him to the desolation beyond the borders (at least at that time) of the US into a desert that no man would readily normally live in at that time.

They had other choices they could have chosen from, and leaders that were saying for them to do one thing, however it was confirmation of the Holy Ghost that led many of them to follow Brigham Young instead of others. I don't think so when such doctrine is based on hearsay and not scriptural. I read a talk by Brigham Young from 1854 and not once did he mention God as being Michael. In fact, everything said was in complete sync with current doctrine. He mentioned sons and daughters of Adam, of whom, we are as well. He said Almighty God but didn't call him anything else.

That says for Mormons, is important to follow the promptings of the Holy Ghost, but is also important to know that the LORD is not a multiple personalities type of being, his Holy Spirit is not going to contradict itself so that many people have various opinions that all go contrary to each other. It is a unifying spirit, not a divisive one. True.

At least, as I understand it in LDS Mormon doctrine.

And as I said, I think most here are actually saying the same things, just arguing about semantics rather than anything that is actually different...

At least that's what I hope I've interpreted it as being.

Sounds pretty close to me.

[Dash jones]

FFA no offense at all taken. I should have been clearer. That's what the smiley devil was for there.

thanks for the commentary.

[Vision]

I'm not sure exactly WHO is polluting the church.

The scout program pollutes the church, what does it do to point people to Christ.

[shadow]

I'm not sure exactly WHO is polluting the church.

The scout program pollutes the church, what does it do to point people to Christ.

The scout program teaches basic skills. That's where I learned first aid, proper use of a knife, basic camping skills, knot ties, government involvement, service and volunteer work etc etc.
Gaining knowledge and being prepared are all things Christ told us to do.

[Dash jones]

I'm not sure exactly WHO is polluting the church.

The scout program pollutes the church, what does it do to point people to Christ.

Well, the people I'm with right now are big scouters, they have a scout book and it has an oath and a scout law in it (though don't the LDS scriptures say to avoid oaths? A little unclear on that).

In the Oath it has a Help other people and it also says to "do my duty to God and my country." It also says morally straight.

The Law is

Trustworthy,
Loyal,
helpful,
friendly,
courteous,
kind,
obedient,
cheerful,
thrifty,
brave,
clean,
reverent

As long as I copied this right, I would say Trustworthy, Loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, and reverent all would help point the scouts towards the areas of Christianity. Catholics also have boy scouts (was not a boy scout in the US myself) in great numbers in the US...and I think they see it as an activity which can help develop the boys morals in a fun setting of activities and games.

[Finrock]

"BLESSED is the man who opens his lips in praise of God of Sabaoth and praises the Lord with his heart.

2 Cursed every man who opens his lips for the bringing into contempt and calumny of his neighbour, because he brings God into contempt.

3 Blessed is he who opens his lips blessing and praising God.

4 Cursed is he before the Lord all the days of his life, who opens his lips to curse and abuse.

5 Blessed is he who blesses all the Lord's works.

6 Cursed is he who brings the Lord's creation into contempt.

7 Blessed is he who looks down and raises the fallen.

8 Cursed is he who looks to and is eager for the destruction of what is not his.

9 Blessed is he who keeps the foundations of his fathers made firm from the beginning.

10 Cursed is he who perverts the decrees of his forefathers.

11 Blessed is he who implants peace and love.

12 Cursed is he who disturbs those that love their neighbours.

13 Blessed is he who speaks with humble tongue and heart to all.

14 Cursed is he who speaks peace with his tongue, while in his heart there is no peace but a sword.

15 For all these things will be laid bare in the weighing-scales and in the books, on the day of the great judgement."

http://sacred-texts.com/bib/fbe/fbe159.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

-Finrock

[Lizzy60]

I'm not sure exactly WHO is polluting the church.

The scout program pollutes the church, what does it do to point people to Christ.

The scout program teaches basic skills. That's where I learned first aid, proper use of a knife, basic camping skills, knot ties, government involvement, service and volunteer work etc etc.
Gaining knowledge and being prepared are all things Christ told us to do.

I googled "LDS Boy Scouts and Priesthood" and got numerous quotes from LDS.org and church authorities explaining how the Boy Scout program is used in conjunction with the Aaronic Priesthood in Primary and Young Men. This is also what we taught when I served in Primary leadership -- that Boy Scouts prepared the boys to receive the Priesthood. It's a lot more than a fun activity that teaches useful skills, in the LDS church.

[Vision]

Boy Scouts is not a revealed program. Every week boys meet at churches to participate in scouts and Christ is only mentioned 2x, in the prayers when they close in the name of Jesus Christ. That is not bringing boys to Christ.

[freedomforall]

Boy Scouts is not a revealed program. Every week boys meet at churches to participate in scouts and Christ is only mentioned 2x, in the prayers when they close in the name of Jesus Christ. That is not bringing boys to Christ.

Neither does pornography, adultery, child and spouse abuse, profanity, stealing, lying, dishonesty, idolatry, thinking bad thoughts, bearing false witness, hypocrisy, unrighteous judgement, driving backwards in rush traffic, and so many other bad things. Scouting teaches boys a lot of good traits to those paying attention. I learned gun safety and got an NRA patch in learning how to shoot safely.
Kids these days are taking guns from home to school and either carrying them in their backpack, brandishing them, or even shooting other kids with it.
7-Year-Old Takes Gun to School
Nevada school shooting 911 call: 'I got a kid down who's been shot'
11-year-old accused of bringing gun and 400 rounds of ammo to school
Texas boy, 4, takes loaded gun to school, authorities say

Plus many more. https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=k ... mp=yhs-002" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Scouting can help boys become responsible citizens which is helping them be Christ like.

[Vision]

Boy Scouts is not a revealed program. Every week boys meet at churches to participate in scouts and Christ is only mentioned 2x, in the prayers when they close in the name of Jesus Christ. That is not bringing boys to Christ.

Neither does pornography, adultery, child and spouse abuse, profanity, stealing, lying, dishonesty, idolatry, thinking bad thoughts, bearing false witness, hypocrisy, unrighteous judgement, driving backwards in rush traffic, and so many other bad things. Scouting teaches boys a lot of good traits to those paying attention. I learned gun safety and got an NRA patch in learning how to shoot safely.
Kids these days are taking guns from home to school and either carrying them in their backpack, brandishing them, or even shooting other kids with it.
7-Year-Old Takes Gun to School
Nevada school shooting 911 call: 'I got a kid down who's been shot'
11-year-old accused of bringing gun and 400 rounds of ammo to school
Texas boy, 4, takes loaded gun to school, authorities say

Plus many more. https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=k ... mp=yhs-002" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Scouting can help boys become responsible citizens which is helping them be Christ like.

Your response makes absolutely no sense. Christ was such a responsible citizen that he healed on the sabbath and dined with sinners.

[freedomforall]

Boy Scouts is not a revealed program. Every week boys meet at churches to participate in scouts and Christ is only mentioned 2x, in the prayers when they close in the name of Jesus Christ. That is not bringing boys to Christ.

Neither does pornography, adultery, child and spouse abuse, profanity, stealing, lying, dishonesty, idolatry, thinking bad thoughts, bearing false witness, hypocrisy, unrighteous judgement, driving backwards in rush traffic, and so many other bad things. Scouting teaches boys a lot of good traits to those paying attention. I learned gun safety and got an NRA patch in learning how to shoot safely.
Kids these days are taking guns from home to school and either carrying them in their backpack, brandishing them, or even shooting other kids with it.
7-Year-Old Takes Gun to School
Nevada school shooting 911 call: 'I got a kid down who's been shot'
11-year-old accused of bringing gun and 400 rounds of ammo to school
Texas boy, 4, takes loaded gun to school, authorities say

Plus many more. https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=k ... mp=yhs-002" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Scouting can help boys become responsible citizens which is helping them be Christ like.

Your response makes absolutely no sense. Christ was such a responsible citizen that he healed on the sabbath and dined with sinners.

Maybe those kids should be in the scouting program instead of running loose and getting into mischief.

Here, let's find out what scripture says about good vs evil.

Alma 5:40
40 For I say unto you that whatsoever is good cometh from God, and whatsoever is evil cometh from the devil.

So there we have it. By boys and girls learning to do good, it comes directly from God.

Who dares say otherwise, and insult God's intelligence?

[pollibird]

The 13th article of faith would point towards what one would look for in the boy scouts...I think. Not sure though, I flunked cub scouts.

Here it is. I think the last portion is of interest in this thread or whatever.

13th article of Faith,
We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul-We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

[freedomforall]

The 13th article of faith would point towards what one would look for in the boy scouts...I think. Not sure though, I flunked cub scouts.

Here it is. I think the last portion is of interest in this thread or whatever.

13th article of Faith,
We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul-We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

And where would these not fit in to that article?

Trustworthy, God says............to have and show integrity.
Loyal,.................................to be loyal to the commandments and covenants we make.
helpful,...............................to have charity.
friendly,..............................to do unto others what we would have them do unto us.
courteous,............................to have respect for others and their property.
kind,...................................to be Christ-like.
obedient,.............................to not be slothful; Christ learned obedience by the things he suffered.
cheerful,..............................to do other than having a droopy face and a lifestyle to match.
thrifty,................................to be self reliant and not a spendthrift.
brave,.................................to face dangerous or difficult situations with courage.
clean,................................. to have clean thoughts, clean cloths, cleanliness in the home, & use some soap.
reverent ..............................to have profound respect for someone or something, like our Lord and Savior.

There may be other useful definitions for these words, but I don't think any other definition could avert the implied purpose for each one in an unChrist-like way.

If we are striving to be prepared, then we didn't flunk scouts.

[Vision]

Ted Bundy was an eagle scout. There are 1000's of cases of abuse by scout masters of boys so freedomforall you can stop trying to convince me of all the good it does. For every good deed there are equal negatives that scouts has brought to the world. The church has settled with dozens of victims of sexual abuse at the hands of their leaders. It's polluting the church.

[freedomforall]

Ted Bundy was an eagle scout. There are 1000's of cases of abuse by scout masters of boys so freedomforall you can stop trying to convince me of all the good it does. Nor can you convince me that all scouts are bad people and scouting is a bunch of garbage. For every good deed there are equal negatives that scouts has brought to the world. The church has settled with dozens of victims of sexual abuse at the hands of their leaders. It's polluting the church.

The church also recognizes boys that earn their Eagle Scout Award. How the boys conduct themselves afterward is on them and no one else. All sinners of all ages are known by God. He has a very harsh consequence for the unrepentant.
So is this scenario the norm for all members of the church? People do not have to be a part of scouting to have sex abuse issues. Men, fathers, priesthood holders in families are polluting their own home by looking at porno, and destroying the family by viewing it regularly. It's an epidemic. Is scouting the fault or blame for this also?
Personally, I think the church ought to break away from Corporate scouting and implement their own program using the same standards. But this is not going to fix the problem of men and women abusing their own children. Talk about pollution!
If you want to focus on all the bad in the world, then you cannot be as scouts are told to be, and that is cheerful. Crap happens. But the full measure of a person is in what they do in private. This is not the fault nor responsibility of scouting to fix, only teach against...which is Christ like.

[pollibird]

The 13th article of faith would point towards what one would look for in the boy scouts...I think. Not sure though, I flunked cub scouts.

Here it is. I think the last portion is of interest in this thread or whatever.

13th article of Faith,
We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul-We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

And where would these not fit in to that article?

Trustworthy, God says............to have and show integrity.
Loyal,.................................to be loyal to the commandments and covenants we make.
helpful,...............................to have charity.
friendly,..............................to do unto others what we would have them do unto us.
courteous,............................to have respect for others and their property.
kind,...................................to be Christ-like.
obedient,.............................to not be slothful; Christ learned obedience by the things he suffered.
cheerful,..............................to do other than having a droopy face and a lifestyle to match.
thrifty,................................to be self reliant and not a spendthrift.
brave,.................................to face dangerous or difficult situations with courage.
clean,................................. to have clean thoughts, clean cloths, cleanliness in the home, & use some soap.
reverent ..............................to have profound respect for someone or something, like our Lord and Savior.

There may be other useful definitions for these words, but I don't think any other definition could avert the implied purpose for each one in an unChrist-like way.

If we are striving to be prepared, then we didn't flunk scouts.

Indeed they would freedom. We (lds)look for what is good. You nailed it by pointing out their worthiness. If I could do it over again, I would have tried harder. Yes I know, hindsight...

[Vision]

Personally, I think the church ought to break away from Corporate scouting and implement their own program using the same standards.

The Duty to God program is in place and has been for years. It's overlooked because of scouting, but it definitely puts more emphasis on spirituality than scouting so why is it that some members are so beholden to scouting. The YW don't have dual programs just YW in Excellence and they seem to be doing better with spiritual matters and retention.

[shadow]

Ted Bundy was an eagle scout.

He also wore clothes and drove a car. Do you? Hey, Lucifer was one of Gods chosen. Oh crap, your reasoning would conclude that being one of God's chosen is a bad thing.
But really, if Ted Bundy was an Eagle Scout, he didn't follow what he was taught.

[freedomforall]

Personally, I think the church ought to break away from Corporate scouting and implement their own program using the same standards.

The Duty to God program is in place and has been for years. It's overlooked because of scouting, but it definitely puts more emphasis on spirituality than scouting so why is it that some members are so beholden to scouting. The YW don't have dual programs just YW in Excellence and they seem to be doing better with spiritual matters and retention.

I got to go with the scouts to Pine Like in southern UT for a whole week, at no charge, because I got top achievement with the Duty to God program. I had more fun than a kid could ever have. My jeans were so dirty they could almost walk around by themselves. Back then being a good boy, cough...cough, had its perquisites. Well...someone must have thought I was.

BTW, Pine Lake camping area doesn't look today what it did back in 59-60. I can't think back that far for an accurate date and year. And I don't have my mommy to ask either, since 2002. I miss her, and my pa, of whom, both allowed me to leave the nest for a whole week. That's a huge thing for a kid.

[freedomforall]

The 13th article of faith would point towards what one would look for in the boy scouts...I think. Not sure though, I flunked cub scouts.

Here it is. I think the last portion is of interest in this thread or whatever.

13th article of Faith,
We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul-We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

And where would these not fit in to that article?

Trustworthy, God says............to have and show integrity.
Loyal,.................................to be loyal to the commandments and covenants we make.
helpful,...............................to have charity.
friendly,..............................to do unto others what we would have them do unto us.
courteous,............................to have respect for others and their property.
kind,...................................to be Christ-like.
obedient,.............................to not be slothful; Christ learned obedience by the things he suffered.
cheerful,..............................to do other than having a droopy face and a lifestyle to match.
thrifty,................................to be self reliant and not a spendthrift.
brave,.................................to face dangerous or difficult situations with courage.
clean,................................. to have clean thoughts, clean cloths, cleanliness in the home, & use some soap.
reverent ..............................to have profound respect for someone or something, like our Lord and Savior.

There may be other useful definitions for these words, but I don't think any other definition could avert the implied purpose for each one in an unChrist-like way.

If we are striving to be prepared, then we didn't flunk scouts.

Indeed they would freedom. We (lds)look for what is good. You nailed it by pointing out their worthiness. If I could do it over again, I would have tried harder. Yes I know, hindsight...

Dogs have hindsight. How else could they run in circles for long periods of time?

[freedomforall]

Ted Bundy was an eagle scout.

He also wore clothes and drove a car. Do you? Hey, Lucifer was one of Gods chosen. Oh crap, your reasoning would conclude that being one of God's chosen is a bad thing.
But really, if Ted Bundy was an Eagle Scout, he didn't follow what he was taught.

Shadow, what is a "but really?" some type of new fishing equipment?

[shadow]

Yes it is.

Butt reel-y

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