UnChrist-Like Accusations

[rewcox]

BofM? Did you read Brienox?

You've lost credibility Rewcox
You don't address anything that doesn't support your opinion.
Come back when you want to address that quote from General Conference.
I literally copied and pasted from General Confrtence and said "this is what I believe" and you call me apostate haha.
Oh boy. More accusations . How appropriate

[Zathura]

BofM? Did you read Brienox?

You've lost credibility Rewcox
You don't address anything that doesn't support your opinion.
Come back when you want to address that quote from General Conference.
I literally copied and pasted from General Confrtence and said "this is what I believe" and you call me apostate haha.
Oh boy. More accusations . How appropriate

I did , I also responded to him.
Still waiting for you to address Elder Tom Perry's quote, because it was his talk that awakened me in the first place and caused me to believe what I believe.
I happen to believe exactly what Elder Perry does, yet you call me apostate.
Was Elder Perry apostate?

[rewcox]

I happen to believe exactly what Elder Perry does, yet you call me apostate.
Was Elder Perry apostate?

Elder Perry had a testimony of the leaders.

[Zathura]

I happen to believe exactly what Elder Perry does, yet you call me apostate.
Was Elder Perry apostate?

Elder Perry had a testimony of the leaders.

Will you address his statement then? Explain what he was saying, so that I have a correct understanding?

[ajax]

Is it okay to tell someone they didn't really receive what they say they did?
If someone says they have been born of God, is it EVER okay to try and convince that person that they haven't?
It's one thing to tell them to consider that maybe they haven't, but to say " You have not been born of God you fool!" When is that okay?
If a man or woman humbly testifies that he/she has seen Christ, who are you to belittle him/her and convince him/her otherwise?
If a man has had a vision from God, who are you to mock him?

I have seen this happen many times on this forum, and multiple times I personally have been attacked in this way.

Do you not see what you are doing? You are acting exactly like the "Jesus Freaks" Christians that you make fun of in Sunday School, who damn every Mormon/Jehovahs Witness/7th Day adventist to hell. The ones who go door to door and straight up say that you will go to hell because of Mormonism, and that you need to repent and accept Jesus.

Who am I to tell you what you have and haven't seen? If you have been visited by the power of God, what good does it to for me to try and convince you that you haven't and attack your character?

This is incredibly sad. I won't use any names because those who are guilty of this mistreatment of your fellow-man already know who you are.

To those who prefer to mistreat their fellow man and point their finger; I'd rather sit down at the dinner table and eat with publicans and sinners, than with "Judges and Lawyers" who wash their hands ,anoint themselves and obey all the commandments. Better yet, that's what Jesus, my Savior preferred.

I love all of you and will treat you respect, even when you mistreat me, I still seek to learn, I still seek to help anybody who has had the same struggles as I have had.

I'm not going to answer your question directly but I am going to share with you a statement / story from Joseph Smith. There is a principle involved that I think answers your question, specifically about the issue of whether we can know if another’s inspiration is true or false.

JOSEPH SMITH’S TESTIMONY CONCERNING MEN BEING ORDAINED BY ANGELS, DELIVERED IN THE SCHOOL OF THE PROPHETS IN KIRTLAND, OHIO, IN THE WINTER 0F 1832-3.

The occasion which called forth his testimony upon this matter was a follows:—-One Francis G. Bishop, an Elder In our church, was very anxious to be ordained a high Priest, but he was not considered a proper candidate to fill the office at that time; and his urgent solicitations to be promoted to the High Priesthood, confirmed the Saints in the opinion that he wanted a high station without meriting it, or without being called by the Spirit of God to that work.

He was sent forth into the world to preach in the capacity and calling of an Elder; but he was not long out before he declared himself to be a High Priest—and that he was ordained by an angel from heaven. This made much stir in the branches of the church and also in the world. But when the news of his proceedings reached the prophet Joseph, he called Bishop home forthwith. He was introduced into the school of the prophets, and there closely questioned upon his course. He said he was ordained by an angel to the High Priesthood; yet, on a more close examination, he crossed his own testimony and statements — became confused, and blushed with shame and guilt— he fell down upon his knees and confessed that he had lied in the name of the Lord-begged to be forgiven and cried aloud for mercy. We all forgave him, but we could not give him our confidence, for he had destroyed it. Elder Sidney Rigdon was present at that meeting, and though he has since fallen, still he knows that my statements are correct. Zebedee Coultrin was also present, and many others that I might name.

Brother Joseph observed to Bishop that he knew he had lied before he confessed it; that his declarations were not only false in themselves, but they involved a false princip1e. An angel, said Joseph, may administer the word of the Lord unto men, and bring intelligence to them from heaven upon various subjects; but no true angel from God will ever come to ordain any man, because they have once been sent to establish the priesthood by ordaining me thereunto; and the priesthood being once established on earth with power to ordain others, no heavenly messenger will ever come to interfere with that power by ordaining any more. He referred to the angel that came to Cornelius and told Cornelius to send for Peter; but if there had been no Peter with keys and power to administer, the angel might have done it himself; but as there was, the angel would not interfere. Saul was directed to go to Ananias for instruction and to be administered to by him; but if there had been no Ananias with power and authority on the earth to administer in the name of Christ, the Lord might have done it himself. You may therefore know, from this time forward, that if any man comes to you professing to be ordained by angel, he is either a liar or has been imposed upon in consequence of transgression by an angel of the devil, for this priesthood shall never be taken away from this church.

This testimony was delivered in an upper room, in the south-west corner of the White Store and dwelling-house, formerly occupied by Whitney and Gilbert, situated on Kirtland Flats.

Now by way of observation... Sometimes we make observations that according to personal paradigms seem to be sensible. Your OP is one such example. It seems proper to not question others inspiration and certainly I can agree that the manner in which we question should be according to proper decorum. However, I think Joseph illustrates in this story the answer to your question and the answer is not what you think it should be. All of this comes under the heading of trying the spirits. We have had recent examples, at least two, in the past couple of years that if people properly understood this principle that Joseph describes they would have rejected completely the imposters that made claims of spiritual insight that oppose true principles by which we can know whether to receive them or not. However, when we buy into false principles, be it for the cause of polite deference, or political correctness, or for purely self-serving ambitions we will be led astray.

So often I have heard people say that they liked some principles that one of these inspired folks referenced above (for the sake of clarity Snuffer and Rowe) taught but other points were obviously to be rejected. This is also not a sensible response, once one discerns a lying spirit then one rejects the entirety of the message. It is not about the individuals as much as it is about the guides these individuals have taken. The guides know just how to phrase and word things to interlace the truth with the philosophies of men and of devils. Seek out true messengers and learn from them and seek the spirit to make it yours.

Consider upon Joseph's statement above and see what you think.

"holy men you know not of"

Did the Nephites seek out Peter?

[ajax]

Now you know why you don't have a testimony of the leaders.

Not salvific. Sorry to disappoint.

[Vision]

You can throw scriptures around all day long. Christ said you would know them by their fruit.

Funny you use a scripture to justify your position against me using scripture.

So what fruit does Devin Durrant bear with his attempt to monetize his conference talk? Is that corruption or just an innocent mistake?

[rewcox]

Pride. Money.

You should read Approaching Zion if you haven't, give you some good background on Zion versus Babylon.

And the Book of Mormon was released before the church was organized. Interesting.

I happen to believe exactly what Elder Perry does, yet you call me apostate.
Was Elder Perry apostate?

Elder Perry had a testimony of the leaders.

Will you address his statement then? Explain what he was saying, so that I have a correct understanding?

[rewcox]

Dumb mistake. So is fighting against the church.

You can throw scriptures around all day long. Christ said you would know them by their fruit.

Funny you use a scripture to justify your position against me using scripture.

So what fruit does Devin Durrant bear with his attempt to monetize his conference talk? Is that corruption or just an innocent mistake?

[freedomforall]

Are there any Christ-like accusations?

You snakes! You Brood of Vipers!

how about:

Acts 13:10
10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

Alma 5:41
41 Therefore, if a man bringeth forth good works he hearkeneth unto the voice of the good shepherd, and he doth follow him; but whosoever bringeth forth evil works, the same becometh a child of the devil, for he hearkeneth unto his voice, and doth follow him.

Alma 60:7
7 Can you think to sit upon your thrones in a state of thoughtless stupor, while your enemies are spreading the work of death around you? Yea, while they are murdering thousands of your brethren—

Rubberstamp congress----Benson

[freedomforall]

Do they apply to Him or to us? Christ is just. He is God. Who are we?

Gods in embryo. We have to be if we can be heirs with Christ in the kingdom of the Father, right?

Psalms 82:6
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

[Zathura]

Dumb mistake. So is fighting against the church.

You can throw scriptures around all day long. Christ said you would know them by their fruit.

Funny you use a scripture to justify your position against me using scripture.

So what fruit does Devin Durrant bear with his attempt to monetize his conference talk? Is that corruption or just an innocent mistake?

Copying and pasting the words of an Apostle in General Conference is fighting the church?

How appropriate it is that this thread is about accusations, and here you are accusing me of fighting the church and calling me apostate

Let's just hug

[Zathura]

Pride. Money.

You should read Approaching Zion if you haven't, give you some good background on Zion versus Babylon.

And the Book of Mormon was released before the church was organized. Interesting.

I happen to believe exactly what Elder Perry does, yet you call me apostate.
Was Elder Perry apostate?

Elder Perry had a testimony of the leaders.

Will you address his statement then? Explain what he was saying, so that I have a correct understanding?

It is a valid observation, I'll admit that much.

[rewcox]

Dumb mistake. So is fighting against the church.

You can throw scriptures around all day long. Christ said you would know them by their fruit.

Funny you use a scripture to justify your position against me using scripture.

So what fruit does Devin Durrant bear with his attempt to monetize his conference talk? Is that corruption or just an innocent mistake?

Copying and pasting the words of an Apostle in General Conference is fighting the church?

How appropriate it is that this thread is about accusations, and here you are accusing me of fighting the church and calling me apostate

Let's just hug

You're Vision, and BofM?

[Vision]

Dumb mistake.

It was a dumb mistake, and it also was calculated, planned, and a failed attempt to monetize his position.

[Zathura]

Yeah, I have like 5 aliases

[freedomforall]

Christ said this, Mark 13:22
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

We have to deal with false in our days, even the elect are at risk. We are exposed to to all sorts of posts at LDSFF. Some from ex members. Some from resigned members. Some from disaffected members. Many at opposition to the church.

You posted with quotes supporting polygamy at variance with the church. And that is how it goes.

Who is "Elect"?
What makes a person "Elect"?

Doctrine and Covenants 29:7
7 And ye are called to bring to pass the gathering of mine elect; for mine elect hear my voice and harden not their hearts;

D&C 84:34
34 The become the sons of Moses and of Aaron and the seed of Abraham, and the church and kingdom, and the elect of God.

D&C 76:50-70

[brlenox]

"holy men you know not of"

Did the Nephites seek out Peter?

Ajax, I'm not following your inference, enlighten me.

[freedomforall]

I think this is where we continually have a disagreement on this point Marc. And this is precisely how the Snufferites and Remnant-ites and other groups do their recruitment, by wowing people with claims. There is a reason that the Church frowns on people publicly making those kinds of claims.

And yet, it's there in black and white in the Gospel Doctrine manual of the Church, which I just quoted and linked. I personally don't know of anyone in church who frowns on such people.

That is no excuse for the abusive practice where people make false claims and expect everybody out there to swallow it, hook, line and sinker. There has to be a line drawn somewhere sometimes, and that just by the fact they make a claim, that that means that it is a fact, just because they are somehow supposedly a latter day saint in good standing.

I agree with you Ed. There have been people on this forum who claim they have seen Christ, yet they denounce the church and say the leaders are out of the way, blah, blah, blah. Claims have been made concerning C&E with the same associated grips.
Every single person that has ever been or ever will be, will have the gospel presented to them at some point. The ones who accept and move forward with it will gain eternal blessings. Those who reject it will end up in hell. Then after they have suffered for their own sins, they then will go into the Telestial kingdom and remain there. See D&C 76.
Those who accept the gospel but are not valiant in it receive the Terrestrial world. Again, D&C 76 for clearer details. Those that have never had the gospel presented to them, yet would have lived it to their very best still inherit the Celestial kingdom.
Anyway, for those making such claims yet tearing down the church and its leaders...I have to wonder about that.

[Rose Garden]

I have had a tendency in the past to either look past or agree with what others are saying because I believed this person was a "liberal" or they were "conservative" or they were "anti-" or they were...

The point being that it is easy to brush off what someone is saying when you only see them as a label or as falling in to some category. Its like when we see a person who is drunk, we might say in our hearts, that person is just a "drunk". If we were to do that then we would be making in error in our thinking. The person, no matter what, is not just a "drunk". Before anything else they are a son or daughter of God and this demands our respect and our honor. We should never treat others with anything other than loving kindness, respect, and honor.

I am a sensitive person when it comes to fairness. I hate being unfair and I hate witnessing unfair things. I have a hard time not reacting when I perceive someone being unfair, unreasonable, or just plain mean spirited. Special pleading happens a lot and it is hard for me to understand. People will special plead when they are loyal to something or someone other than Jesus Christ.

Intellectual honesty is a Christ-like attribute. Mormons ought to be the examples of this atrribute in the world. It so easy to paste a label on someone and pretending that this justifies one from honestly and sincerely considering the words of another person or to esteem them as an enemy. That is really what it comes down to. Once you place a label you create an enemy. A them. And now one feels justified in being unfair, unkind, unChrist-like, because they are defending against an "enemy". This is just a trick though by Satan. The truth is that we should love all, even our enemies, whether real or perceived.

Reason, fairness, kindness, etc. should be the natural disposition of all Latter-day Saints. It seems like Mormons should be especially sensitive to avoid persecutions and accusations and the belittling of another's testimony or witness.

-Finrock

Well put! Would you have a problem with me reporting this elsewhere on the internet?

Thanks Jezebel. To answer your question, no, I suppose I do not mind.

-Finrock

Thanks!

[Dash jones]

Those who reject it will end up in hell. Then after they have suffered for their own sins, they then will go into the Telestial kingdom and remain there. See D&C 76.
Those who accept the gospel but are not valiant in it receive the Terrestrial world. Again, D&C 76 for clearer details. Those that have never had the gospel presented to them, yet would have lived it to their very best still inherit the Celestial kingdom.
Anyway, for those making such claims yet tearing down the church and its leaders...I have to wonder about that

Errr...uhhhmmmm....

Beyond the fact that I was just told I was going to hell...

:ymdevil:

I think that is somewhat of an opinion (not a bad one mind you). I was under the impression that they can reject it in this life, but if they accept it in the next, all that is needed is that baptism. Those in the Terrestrial Kingdom are those

https://www.lds.org/topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Generally speaking, individuals in the terrestrial kingdom will be honorable people “who were blinded by the craftiness of men” (D&C 76:75). This group will include members of the Church who were “not valiant in the testimony of Jesus” (D&C 76:79). It will also include those who rejected the opportunity to receive the gospel in mortality but who later received it in the postmortal spirit world (see D&C 76:73-74). To learn more about those who will inherit terrestrial glory, see Doctrine and Covenants 76:71-80, 91, 97.

So, it could include those who reject it in this life according to Mormonism from what I understand.

On another note, I think rewcox and many others are on the same page, but maybe just arguing semantics.

I think it is absolutely correct from LDS doctrine that what the Holy Ghost tells you takes precedence over that of other mens, even apostles.

HOWEVER (and this is a BIG one) accordingly with LDS doctrine, as long as the LDS church is the Lords and those men are the Lord's servants, the Holy Ghost is only going to confirm that they ARE his servants and that the DOCTRINE (opinions are another matter, but you should be certain which are opinions, and which are the true teachings that they are giving out before declaring something false) they teach is true.

As per LDS doctrine (so, what the LDS Mormons have, not necessarily what others have)...if you feel the Holy Spirit is saying something opposite of church doctrine...you MIGHT want to check what spirit you are listing to, or what your source is.

I'm not saying anyone here is like that, but that the Holy Spirit (as per Mormonism) will NOT contradict itself, and hence, if the source of the Holy Spirit is as the LDS say it is, then it is NOT going to contradict doctrine that it's leaders are going to teach.

However, it is fully doctrine that the Holy Spirit takes precedence over the leaders statements. You should be aware of how it works supposedly though. The Holy Ghost does not contradict itself, nor true doctrine of the Lord. In that light, Rewcox is correct, as are the others, and there should be no need for everyone to be trying to argue about it from where I see it.

A prime example of listening or heeding the spirit was given in the early days of the LDS church. It was said after Joseph Smith died, that When Brigham Young stood up the mantle of Joseph Smith fell upon him. Those who had the Spirit had it confirmed to them (from what I understand) that HE was the legitimate leader of the Church at this time...THAT is why the overwhelming majority (but NOT ALL by far) followed him to the desolation beyond the borders (at least at that time) of the US into a desert that no man would readily normally live in at that time.

They had other choices they could have chosen from, and leaders that were saying for them to do one thing, however it was confirmation of the Holy Ghost that led many of them to follow Brigham Young instead of others.

That says for Mormons, is important to follow the promptings of the Holy Ghost, but is also important to know that the LORD is not a multiple personalities type of being, his Holy Spirit is not going to contradict itself so that many people have various opinions that all go contrary to each other. It is a unifying spirit, not a divisive one.

At least, as I understand it in LDS Mormon doctrine.

And as I said, I think most here are actually saying the same things, just arguing about semantics rather than anything that is actually different...

At least that's what I hope I've interpreted it as being.

[rewcox]

Dash, a testimony of the Book of Mormon is best received spiritually. Hugh Nibley is regarded as one of the best Mormon scholars of all time.

Here is a link that is a great read on background on the Nephi books, Lehi in the Deseret

Enjoy.

Those who reject it will end up in hell. Then after they have suffered for their own sins, they then will go into the Telestial kingdom and remain there. See D&C 76.
Those who accept the gospel but are not valiant in it receive the Terrestrial world. Again, D&C 76 for clearer details. Those that have never had the gospel presented to them, yet would have lived it to their very best still inherit the Celestial kingdom.
Anyway, for those making such claims yet tearing down the church and its leaders...I have to wonder about that

Errr...uhhhmmmm....

Beyond the fact that I was just told I was going to hell...

:ymdevil:

I think that is somewhat of an opinion (not a bad one mind you). I was under the impression that they can reject it in this life, but if they accept it in the next, all that is needed is that baptism. Those in the Terrestrial Kingdom are those

https://www.lds.org/topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Generally speaking, individuals in the terrestrial kingdom will be honorable people “who were blinded by the craftiness of men” (D&C 76:75). This group will include members of the Church who were “not valiant in the testimony of Jesus” (D&C 76:79). It will also include those who rejected the opportunity to receive the gospel in mortality but who later received it in the postmortal spirit world (see D&C 76:73-74). To learn more about those who will inherit terrestrial glory, see Doctrine and Covenants 76:71-80, 91, 97.

So, it could include those who reject it in this life according to Mormonism from what I understand.

On another note, I think rewcox and many others are on the same page, but maybe just arguing semantics.

I think it is absolutely correct from LDS doctrine that what the Holy Ghost tells you takes precedence over that of other mens, even apostles.

HOWEVER (and this is a BIG one) accordingly with LDS doctrine, as long as the LDS church is the Lords and those men are the Lord's servants, the Holy Ghost is only going to confirm that they ARE his servants and that the DOCTRINE (opinions are another matter, but you should be certain which are opinions, and which are the true teachings that they are giving out before declaring something false) they teach is true.

As per LDS doctrine (so, what the LDS Mormons have, not necessarily what others have)...if you feel the Holy Spirit is saying something opposite of church doctrine...you MIGHT want to check what spirit you are listing to, or what your source is.

I'm not saying anyone here is like that, but that the Holy Spirit (as per Mormonism) will NOT contradict itself, and hence, if the source of the Holy Spirit is as the LDS say it is, then it is NOT going to contradict doctrine that it's leaders are going to teach.

However, it is fully doctrine that the Holy Spirit takes precedence over the leaders statements. You should be aware of how it works supposedly though. The Holy Ghost does not contradict itself, nor true doctrine of the Lord. In that light, Rewcox is correct, as are the others, and there should be no need for everyone to be trying to argue about it from where I see it.

A prime example of listening or heeding the spirit was given in the early days of the LDS church. It was said after Joseph Smith died, that When Brigham Young stood up the mantle of Joseph Smith fell upon him. Those who had the Spirit had it confirmed to them (from what I understand) that HE was the legitimate leader of the Church at this time...THAT is why the overwhelming majority (but NOT ALL by far) followed him to the desolation beyond the borders (at least at that time) of the US into a desert that no man would readily normally live in at that time.

They had other choices they could have chosen from, and leaders that were saying for them to do one thing, however it was confirmation of the Holy Ghost that led many of them to follow Brigham Young instead of others.

That says for Mormons, is important to follow the promptings of the Holy Ghost, but is also important to know that the LORD is not a multiple personalities type of being, his Holy Spirit is not going to contradict itself so that many people have various opinions that all go contrary to each other. It is a unifying spirit, not a divisive one.

At least, as I understand it in LDS Mormon doctrine.

And as I said, I think most here are actually saying the same things, just arguing about semantics rather than anything that is actually different...

At least that's what I hope I've interpreted it as being.

[Finrock]

So your saying that my experiences with the holy ghost when I read scripture are opinion?

Sure, when it is at odds with the church and leaders.

Church Leaders > Holy Ghost?

So you believe anything someone says if they say the holy ghost told them?

Burning Sword said he was Christ. Used 3 or 4 other names, finally said he had been deceived.

There was a man who was taught by an angel. He went about preaching things different than the church. Alma the younger was the chief judge and high priest. The man was quite successful until he went to the people of Ammon, the Anti-Nephi Lehis. They wouldn't listen, and in fact took him to their priest. The man was bound and taken before Alma.

I think you know the story.

If Vision is willing, I suggest a test. Go to the next Testimony meeting in his/her ward. Testify that all churches are corrupt, including the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saint. Conclude that the holy ghost confirmed this. Then report back to us.

Rewcox,

While being an active Mormon and still one today, before being reborn, I had a very strong tendency to believe that someone was speaking by the Spirit simply because I was told that they were a bishop, a Stake President, a GA, a Seventy, THE Prophet, etc. These titles to me meant that they had the Spirit and I simply believed and went along with it. However, this method of living did not produce fruits consistently and it ultimately left me bereft of the one and only person that could save me, which is Jesus Christ. If a bishop had the Spirit then I benefited from their counsel. If they did not I would not benefit as there have been times when I knew that the counsel didn't feel right however I pressed on simply because my leader told me but in the end I was not helped or assisted in my spiritual progression or even hindered. Or because I wasn't truly converted to the counsel and I just did it because, I might fail in heeding it and then I would feel guilty because I didn't obey, not recognizing at the time that I didn't need to feel bad about heeding counsel that was not Spirit lead.

The best thing to do is to learn to live by the Spirit and to obey the Spirit of Truth. This becomes a lot easier to do once we have been baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. But the promptings of the Holy Ghost will lead us to all things needful.

-Finrock

[shadow]

Tell me the meaning of those scriptures then Rewcox.
You reject our understanding of it, so you tell me what you think it means.

I know you're addressing rewcox, but I have a question-
Who are those polluting the church and how are they doing it? Moroni has the answer if you need help.

Also, just for kicks, I wonder what Joseph thought about those verses as he was restoring the church? Do you suppose those verses were invalid and not applicable at first? Well, "at first" I mean when the church was restored, not when the BoM was translated which was before the church was restored

[iWriteStuff]

Yeah, I have like 5 aliases

I hope that's not true, or I've got four more to block...