So whats the point of Mormonism?

[2ndRateMind]

I'm genuinely puzzled about this. What is it the Church of the Latter Day Saints brings to The Great Debate, that isn't already in the Gospels? I'm not getting at Joseph Smith; I'm quite prepared to believe he was a prophet, with sensible things to say, like 'Let there be no poor among you'. I just wonder what is definitively new in the Book of Mormon?

Best wishes, 2RM.

[Elizabeth]

Knowing where you have come from and where you hope to be going and what one is doing here is a comfort.

[Robert Sinclair]

A second witness is required in the law of God, and that is what the "Book of Mormon" is, a second witness required of God in his law, given to Moses.

And to fullfill the scriptures written of Ezekiel 37:15-23 of a stick of Judah and a stick of Joseph written upon and joined together into "One Stick", to lay down contentions and false doctrines, that the people should be confounded no more, on how to treat the poor among them, "All things common" among you of your own freewill, no more any poor that would suffer or be without, because of the love of the Father and of all his children of one another, living in peace and goodwill, following the instructions given through his chosen and annointed prophet Jesus Christ, whom all should hearken unto.♡

[Zathura]

I'm genuinely puzzled about this. What is it the Church of the Latter Day Saints brings to The Great Debate, that isn't already in the Gospels? I'm not getting at Joseph Smith; I'm quite prepared to believe he was a prophet, with sensible things to say, like 'Let there be no poor among you'. I just wonder what is definitively new in the Book of Mormon?

Best wishes, 2RM.

There's nothing "new" in the Book of Mormon.
However, the Book of Mormon has more stories of people who were converted to Jesus Christ than the Bible has. In this stories there are many details that help us understand how to come into Christ and be Born Again.
The Bible honestly is sufficient, the Book of Mormon just gives us more examples of conversion, and how to be born again.
It's simply another book that serves as a witness of the divinity of Jesus Christ.

If I didn't have the Book of Mormon and the many conversion stories within, and the teachings of the doctrine of Christ, I may not have been born of God to this point. The Bible is the word of God, and teaches the Gispel of Christ, but doesn't go as in depth into the doctrine of Christ and conversion as the Book of Mormon does.

Whether the Book of Mormon be a work of fiction or whether the events within it actually happened, I do not care. All I know is that the Book of Mormon helped me come unto Christ, and be Born of God, giving me a powerful testimony by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is my Savior. This is all that matters to me.

[Zathura]

Also, the Book of Mormon does teach us a little more about the resurrection of man, and the world of the Spirits(Hell/paradise).

Most important of all in my opinion, The Book of Mormon is the perfect companion of the Biblr. It helps one understand the Bible much better.

[dauser]

What is definitively new in the Book of Mormon?

MORE

More from God. Another Witness.

More is not what the world wants...NO MORE is what the world clings to.

The Book Of Mormon is just the tip of the iceberg of MORE.

The Book Of Mormon is another Testiment of Lucifer and His Church, and that is why it is so despised.

The Bible will not touch that subject of the Church Of Lucifer, those plain and precious parts were taken out of the Bible, and populations stumble.

The Book Of Mormon exposes the destruction of the Adamites, the Jaredites, the Jerusalemites, the Nephites, and the Americans in graphic and chilling detail.

No where in the Bible or government text books do we get any authoritative primary links from God about public education, doctorcraft, lawyercraft, priestcraft and secret combinations and their affects on civilizations?

The Book Of Mormon is a great sift that divides those who want more from those content with no more.

How can people who have faith in the "no more" type philosophies possibly accept more dead prophets, more living prophets, and more future revelation and directions?

The Book Of Mormon sets a wonderful precedence of MORE.

The population dividing issues, that cannot be taught from the podiums of church are taught in the Book Of Mormon...it is a great sift.

[gclayjr]

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second,Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors,teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation,visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith.

[zionminded]

I'll chime in.

The biggest contribution of Mormonism is the concept that "as God is, man may become". In addition, it proposes (though in recent decades has been muted), that man can converse with God here, and the veil between this world and the next is paper thin, if you choose it. It also teaches that becoming like God is to be refined through obedience, not just by grace, but by "becoming" better. While that isn't distinct, most Christian churches teach people to be followers of Christ, not to be LIKE him literally.

[Sarah]

Christ's restored Church, the Book of Mormon, and all the other revelations we have teach us about who God is. That is true joy and eternal life, to know God.

[Robert Sinclair]

Christ's instructions on how to restore his church upon the face of this earth, having "All things common", as the Twelve Chosen of Christ set up, after his visit with them of the Nephites of Manasseh, testified of in The Book of Mormon, and as his first church set up by his chosen Twelve and Peter, of "All things common", among the Jews, but for the Twelve calling themselves "Mormons" of the House of Ephraim, setting up this tower and ensign and light of "All things common" among them that is a key element and foundation of Christ's true church, still pending ...........♡

[Rose Garden]

The Bible has been influenced by the changing culture as the centuries have gone by. The Book of Mormon, as a text translated from a people who left Jerusalem before the destruction of Jerusalem, preserves a culture that we no longer have access to.

As you immerse yourself in the Book of Mormon, particularly as you seek the Spirit of God in your studies, you can tap into that culture. This is important because it harkens back to a time when seeing Jesus wasn't such a radical idea. The faith and mentality of the people of the Book of Mormon allowed them to gain personal relationships with God that more closely reflected the true nature of God. Unlike popular Christian belief, God must be comprehended if we are to gain any sort of true personal relationship with him.

The Bible has the power to change an individual. However, it has failed all this time to actually change the world. That is the Lord's purpose. He intends to transform this entire world into the millennial paradise. I believe that the Book of Mormon contains that power, if we will accept it.

[davedan]

Temple: baptism for the dead, endowment, and eternal marriage.

[Robert Sinclair]

davedan,

No temple needed for all three of those things, and the endowment taught of the endowment from on high, by consecration of all one has, including one's own life, still pending.........., being put into action...........♡

As instructed in D&C 105, go and learn one's duty having experience as the celestial law requires, having all things common, equal in your temporal things, so the elders can be endowed, with power from on high to direct his true church properly, and redeem Zion.♡

[Robert Sinclair]

The Book of Mormon also teaches how the adminstration of the flesh and blood, or, bread and wine, was done by them and baptism, in Moroni, 4&5&6, good references to have.♡

[Thinker]

Good question - good for us all to consider, though I might rephrase it as:
"What do you get affiliating as Mormon, that you wouldn't in other religious affiliations?"

The opportunity to love and be loved - through service/callings.
That is the #1 reason why I and my family attend the lds church.
My beliefs have evolved so much that I don't even relate to typical ideas of Christianity of human sacrifice and scapegoating.
I figure that no matter what group I may affiliate with, there will be imperfectness, and I also figure that the main purpose of life is to learn to love better & better, and I like the Mormon church for it helping facilitate that.

[Robert Sinclair]

While looking over my post, went back to check again about "sacrament" in the New Testament, the manner of prayer and such, and found to my surprise, the word "sacrament" was not even used in the New Testament, nor in the Book of Mormon. Not until I saw it used in the Doctrine and Covenants in section 20 verse 46, did I see the word "sacrament" used at all. I found this interesting as many times as I have read through the scriptures, I really never noticed the difference until now, interesting, this word used of "sacrament" instead of "flesh and blood" or "bread and wine" in "rememberance" and as a "witness".♡

[gclayjr]

Robert,

I read your post. I'm not sure if you have a question or are just musing. One of the reasons that "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints", is considered The RESTORED Church and not a PROTESTANT Church is that we believe that over the past almost 2000 years much of the original Gospel was Lost. (2 Thessalonians 2:3) . We believe that these are the Last Days and through Joseph Smith and others Christ has RESTORED his true church to this earth. Since much was lost, this information needs to be revealed again. The Doctrine & Covenants contains many of these revelations.

Regards,

George Clay

[Robert Sinclair]

I read that first testament of Judah, of "All things common", set up by the Twelve chosen of Jesus Christ of Peter, and how by "distribution" they had "All things common" a signature mark of Christ's true church, also set up by the Twelve chosen of Jesus Christ of the tribe of Manasseh, of the Nephites of Lehi, who set up "All things common" among their members, again a second witness, and testament that Jesus Christ directs and instructs his followers to have "All things common" among themselves by freewill of the members led by their Twelve. And I read of his commandment to his Twelve chosen of Ephraim or Joseph Smith and his leaders, to be equal in their temporal things and this not grudgingly, by freewill consecrations distributed from the bishops hands, to the poor members for homes and lands, by covenants and deeds, as well as food and raiment, that they also, might have "All things common" among them of their own freewill, but as must needs be Ephraim, in order to fullfill the scriptures with reguards to them would rebel, walk willingly away from this law, and instead of being equal in their temporal things, would go a whoring away after idols made by the hands of man of building temples, and putting the money out to the exchangers, rather that setting up this light and tower and ensign and standard to the world of once again "All things common" among them of their own freewill.

What is a person to do once they come to understand these things, but sound the alarm about these things, as Jesus Christ has said to do.

I would hope the old men and husbandmen of this vineyard, would give ear and look, and see, and be ashamed, that these things have been written and testified, that this they would do, pervert all "equity", and place temples to adore as idols above the care of the poor and needy, seeing we are all equal in our temporal things for homes and lands, food and raiment, first, then go and do your building.

Good to look at all the witnesses given in the scriptures of all these things, and know of yourselves, that the scriptures written are true.♡

[Robert Sinclair]

And as far as partaking of the bread and wine, as a witness and a covenant of promise, that you will remember Jesus Christ, and keep his commandments, if you take the consecrations made to God, and put them into idols and out to the exchangers, you are not keeping his commandments, of being equal in your temporal things with his storehouse, and should not be taking the emblems of his flesh and blood, so lightly and unworthy of making such a solemn witness and promise that you will do as he has commanded. No wonder The Book of Enoch the Prophet says the final Twelve will destroy more of the blind sheep than before, and that they will both be judged, found guilty and thrust into the fiery abyss, salt without savor as witnessed by the Father and the Son Jesus Christ in 3rd Nephi chapter 16. I have a hope, that the great gift of "if" will be taken up by Ephraim, and that they will fullfill Hosea 14:8, before destruction comes to utterly destroy them and make them desolate, as was a type and a shadow to them of Shiloh, where the Tabernacle was set up and the Ark of the Covenant.

I do not know all things, but I know Jesus Christ told his followers not one stone would be left upon another of the great temple of his day, and both temples were destroyed, as well as those set up by Manasseh as well, and Zion is to be plowed as a field, and when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven, there is to be no temple building therein, only the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb, as the temple to look to.

Many, things to ponder upon, "if" you are of the House of Ephraim.♡

[a_member]

I'm genuinely puzzled about this. What is it the Church of the Latter Day Saints brings to The Great Debate, that isn't already in the Gospels? I'm not getting at Joseph Smith; I'm quite prepared to believe he was a prophet, with sensible things to say, like 'Let there be no poor among you'. I just wonder what is definitively new in the Book of Mormon?

Best wishes, 2RM.

I will construct your question (and address it) narrowly, i.e. what specifically does the Book of Mormon (and not all the other stuff that's to be found in, say, the Doctrine and Covenants or other sources) bring to the table, theologically speaking?

First off, I'm not a scholar on general Christian belief and how mainline Protestants view the bible. I have some scattered experiences (i.e. attending other churches from time to time, non-denominational Christian bible study, etc) but I'm no expert in the theology of other religions. And, I'm one person who believes that the Book of Mormon is the word of God, so my thoughts may differ from other Mormons on the subject.

I believe there are numerous instances where the Book of Mormon either a.) enlarges, b.) clarifies, or c.) outrightly gives us something new relative to the Bible. In my personal study I'm most familiar with the doctrine of Grace as espoused by the Book of Mormon, so I'll stick to that for now.

Grace, in mainline Protestant belief, is God's enabling power. We are saved by Grace because we profess Jesus, and therefore He works through us via Grace to bring our lives into harmony with His gospel. In this view, Grace is literally our lifeline to God. Without it, we can do nothing right, or at least nothing that is acceptable to God. It is a free gift, given to those who don't deserve it or even ask for it, that makes salvation possible (see http://www.christianity.com/theology/what-is-grace.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

The Book of Mormon has a somewhat different view of Grace. The most straightforward exposition of this view is Ether 12:27. I will break it into a numbered list to make discussion easier:


1.) And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness.
2.) I give unto men weakness that they may be humble;
3.) and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me;
4.) for if they humble themselves before me,
5.) and have faith in me,
6.) then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

(from https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/ether/12?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

So, taking each numbered selection in turn:

1 -- The revelation of weakness is a key component to Grace. One must desire to know about his or hear weakness and then approach God in order to have this experience. This is, at least to my knowledge, an entirely unique aspect of Grace presented in the Book of Mormon and nowhere else. It is theologically consistent in that if people are imperfect, then they also have an imperfect understanding of themselves. Hence God needs to reveal to each individual his or her weakness (note the singular). Otherwise, we would myopically continue to try and correct only the weakness that is self-evident or evident to other humans.

2 -- This is also, as far as I know, a uniquely Book of Mormon contribution to the doctrine of Grace. Weakness serves a specific purpose, it is there to help us be humble. The interesting thing about this is we must have a revelation of our weakness to really achieve humility, because otherwise we're not aware of our weakness and therefore not aware of why, exactly, we need Grace and the Atonement in our lives. Hence our weakness, which is inherently part of the "natural man" (a phrase that is unique to the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants, as is the concept that phrase entails), plays a specific role in Gospel of Jesus Christ.

3 -- Grace comes as a blessing obtained when we humble ourselves. Hence 1 and 2 above have to happen first; we need to have our weakness revealed to us and then come to understand the role of that weakness. Once we do, we can then truly be humble because now we know a.) why we need God, and b.) that our weakness serves a role in our relationship to God. Note the phrasing -- "all men". This blessing and all the attendant blessings in this verse are available to anyone, anywhere, at any time providing that they've done 1 and 2 above. Mormon, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Pagan, atheist, agnostic... It doesn't matter, literally anyone has access to God's Grace.

4 -- So, now, we can put our knowledge and humility into action. The first step is to arrive at that humble condition, which is basically the acceptance of the concept that God has to change us, we will never change ourselves under our own power and wisdom. This is the point where I feel Mormons tend to lose the plot, because we like to think that we can change ourselves through our own efforts (reading scriptures, praying, church service, fasting, etc). I personally think other Christians have this aspect more correct; God's gift of Grace comes from God and there is no other way to get it. We do not "earn" it. It is a free gift, given to those who recognize that they cannot save themselves.

5 -- This links Grace and faith. What, then, is faith? I feel like that word is thrown around a lot in the scriptures without being given a clear definition. The definition I use in my life is "faith is acting on a prompting of the Holy Spirit". This is how faith is fundamentally different from belief. I can believe anything I want, but I can only truly express faith by acting on communication from God. Hence 1 above is the instance where I receive communication from God ("oh wow, I eat my feelings and this is a bad thing!"), which I then put into action by asking for His grace, which leads to

6 -- I now have reason to express faith that God will change me. I cannot change the weakness in question myself, so I express faith by doing the things I can do while waiting patiently for God to apply His Grace to my specific weakness. And then, when that happens, I am changed through the power of God and can testify that the Atonement of Jesus Christ is a real thing, and a beautiful thing, really "good news" that's worth proclaiming as part of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Anyways, that's one of what I believe are a huge number of instances where the Book of Mormon provides a unique take on a general Christian principle as found in the Bible.

[Dash jones]

1. There was a statement I've heard that the Catholic church at one point made the statement, there are only two choices, either the Mormon church is true, or we are. There are no other options. (I actualy do not accept this statement, as any Catholic would say there really is only ONE option, that of the Catholic church and all others are apostate...BUT...)

Most protestant churches are descended from Catholicism. As such, they have NO authorized grant of the Priesthood. It is impossible for them to carry out the holy sacraments by the power of the Priesthood. They DO NOT HAVE IT. IT was NOT GRANTED to them by the Catholic Church.

As such, most Protestant religions have tried to find ways that they can be saved without the holy ordinances ascribed in the New Testament. They do not have a sacrament, confession, or any other sacrament presided or held by one who holds the Holy Priesthood of the Lord. Those who perform these ordinances claim that either they got them from preists who used to be Catholic (impossible, as all authority is taken when that preist is excommunicated and that has happened to these priests who rebelled), OR that they get authority from a BOOK (the Bible) and the Lords inherent authority from that, OR that they gain it because the BIBLE (that book again) grants it to them by the power of the LORD...that somehow this book gives them the Lord's seal directly. Finally, there are those that discount the authentic priesthood power entirely and state that it does not exist as taught by the Catholic church. all that is there is the power of the Lord which can be wielded by anyone (no use for Peter or the apostles I suppose in their book, despite having the New Testament right before them). In some instances, this gets so minimal as saying all that is required for being saved is no holy sacrament at all, but merely the change of heart and accepting his sacrifice (which makes one ponder about all those teachings of Christ about Baptism, confession, and the sacraments as in the New Testament).

Obviously a book cannot GRANT literally authority anymore than you simply reading the drivers license book (and never taking the test or getting the written consent by the government) can give you a drivers license. Nor how reading a book on being an electrician can make you a licensed electrician, or reading the legal books can make you a Peace/Police Officer in the US.

It requires that authority to be granted to you from the one giving that authority by a recognized servant (as in for the government, a civil servant or government employee that is authorized to hand out licenses), OR directly from the one that grants authority (so a face to face with the LORD...something which most religions descended from Catholicism point out is not really going to happen). Catholics link a direct line of authority through Peter, the apostle.

Mormonism is NOT considered descended from Catholicism (and hence even more heretical in that light...and why many of those that ARE descended from the Catholic Tradition will point out that Mormons are not Christian...because they are not Christian as per the Catholic tradition of belief...aka...no trinity, etc.). Mormons do NOT claim authority from a book, or that from the power and words of the book that the power of the Lord is authorized to them. Instead, they claim they received it DIRECTLY. Hence, they are one of the few other religions that state they directly received the authority of the priesthood from the Lord. (another would be Islam, and of course some of the Orthodox religions of the same descent as Catholicism).

This is one of the number one reasons of the point of Mormonism, the claim of Priesthood authority of which we know Christ and the apostles (including Paul) claimed was necessary for those who were the authorized servants of the Lord. Unlike the protestants who have no claim, they claim a direct link. If you want someone who claims legitimacy, this is probably the FIRST line that you need to look for. It was claimed by all religions that are the first (the original Christian church, Islam, those who have direct linkage to the Buddhas, etc).

2. The Book of Mormon. This is NOT a replacement bible. It is exactly what it states. It is another testament of Jesus Christ.

Why would this be important in regards to Mormonism?

Many claim that the Book of Mormon is false and that there is no proof of any of it being correct.

I can claim the same for the KJV of the Bible. In reality, there is NO proof of any of it really ever having happened. Just like Mormon apologists do for the Bible, many Christian apologists come up with some rather convincing arguments, but in reality...there is no evidence. There are NAMES of places that exist...but the same could hold true for the LDS scriptures of the D&C or Pearl of Great Price.

(Note, that the Catholic Bible actually DOES have events that actually took place and are actually recorded in history...but most of that was taken out by others).

Any author who knew a little of the geography could make up a story and include cities around them. In fact, that happened in MANY stories of the ancient world which are NOT considered scripture. It happens in our time in books called fiction. In truth, there is no real hard evidence of anything in the Bible. This means that many who are looking for this hard evidence (instead of relying on Faith) claim that the bible is made up and a fictional story or a mythology.

What the Book of Mormon does is to say, even if you disprove the bible, here is another testament that Christ lived and was the Savior of the World. This is another testimony of what he taught.

In the same light that the Bible has not really been disproven either, neither has the book of Mormon. The book of Mormon is supposed to say, here is another witness that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior and that he really was here on the Earth and really did teach these things.

It and the bible are supposed to complement each other in that light, and both show that the necessary foundations of salvation are found in each.

As per Joseph Smith there are parts of the Bible that were mistranslated. In that light, the Book of Mormon also serves as a clarification on items which may not be as clear. One example (as stated above) is the LDS version of the sacrament, which specifies how the sacrament prayers are to be said and held. I believe it also has an example of how the Baptismal and Gift of the Holy Ghost prayers are supposed to occur.

Once again, it does not replace the Bible, but compliments it and clarifies. Each is needed, but necessary in the LDS religion.

3. The Doctrine and Covenants. (and pearl of great price). This is where some of the more meaty portions of the LDS religion come to fruition. In here you find out about the eternal ideas of the soul and of man. Mormons have a unique idea about the eternal nature of the soul. In it, you did not begin at birth, but you had a pre-existence where you made choices. These choices directly affect what happened to you next. One of those choices was to come to this Earth to receive a body. The idea to have a family and be members of the church were also choices (and hence what they consider foreordained, as opposed to pre-destination). These choices affect the next life where it is possible to have your family with you FOR EVER (and more...for whatever eternity means). They have this belief in a family unit where the relationship you have on this earth do not need to end at death, but can continue endlessly (sort of like that fairy tale ending...eh...but without ever having to end). There are myriads of other teachings in these books, but a LOT of it is geared towards this eternal idea of your soul having no beginning and no end, and the journey of it throughout it all and on this earth.

4. As per the Book of Mormon, the LDS are one of the ONLY Christian religions that claim that you can KNOW by the spirit of the Holy Ghost the truthfulness of it's message, and that by that same power you can know the truth of all things (probably that are pertinent I'd imagine). Others will claim it will turn your heart or make you accept things, but I don't think any teach you can know all things by it (as far as my studies have shown thus far, but I am always learning).

I see these as the biggest items in regards to Mormonism that sets it apart from most other Western Religions in how they will actually impact a Mormon from others (at least in regards to my current views, these could always change).

As a Catholic, it is interesting to see another Western Religion that claims to worship the Lord espouse such views (as a direct line of priesthood authority for example). I'd say those who wish for a more Christian ideal (rather than Muslim or something non-Christian) that understand the Bible and the NEED or requirement for that priesthood authority, perhaps they were right...there really aren't that many choices. Of course, with other differences between them, one could claim multiple choices on that idea (for example, you have the FLDS, and the other side you have the orthodox, or Greek/Byzantine Catholics).

I suppose that the "Point" could be, if one recognizes the need for Authority given by the Lord, and do NOT like what Catholicism offers, Mormons offer another religion which also claims direct authority.

Still, these are some of the major points I think that are the "Points" of Mormonism, as far as I would categorize it from my own perspective. The only order I might change MIGHT be putting #4 ahead of #2...depending on who one is talking to.

[2ndRateMind]

OK, thanks for all your answers. I think I will need to read them several times over, though, to get at the essence of your communications. Meanwhile, which I perhaps did not make clear, I am basically looking for philosophical advances, or 'paradigm shifts', rather than statements of distinctual faith.

Thanks all, 2RM.

[Robert Sinclair]

Read the "Charge to the Twelve" thread that will help you see what is happening, and why.♡

[captainfearnot]

I'm genuinely puzzled about this. What is it the Church of the Latter Day Saints brings to The Great Debate, that isn't already in the Gospels? I'm not getting at Joseph Smith; I'm quite prepared to believe he was a prophet, with sensible things to say, like 'Let there be no poor among you'. I just wonder what is definitively new in the Book of Mormon?

People have said the same thing about Jesus. In fact, I know of one rabbi who said, "Jesus was a great prophet who had wonderful ideas—none of them new."

We don't worship Jesus because of the things he said and did. We worship him because he is the Son of God.

It's kind of the same with Mormonism. If you strip it down to it's components as a church and as a religion, it's maybe not so remarkable on its face. I'll be the first to admit that I don't see much qualitative difference between President Monson's twitter feed and the pope's for example. Both are imparting about the same level of moral wisdom to the world, and on that alone I don't think you could make the case that one church is true and the other false. Just like Jesus' teachings stack up well against those of Buddha or Confucius, they're all comparable.

Of course Jesus performed miracles such as healing the sick, raising the dead—and, you know, being resurrected. But none of that is documented in a way that nonbelievers are compelled to accept. If he had wanted to do that, he could have imparted some scientific knowledge ahead of its time, like teaching his followers that boiling water makes it safe to drink or something. But for whatever reason he chose not to do that. Likewise, in Mormonism there are a bunch of miracles that "prove" to us that it's God's one true church, like Joseph Smith's first vision and the restoration of the priesthood by angels and all of that. But there's no material evidence of any of that, so it's really only compelling to believers.

Being Mormon is about being in the one church—among all the churches that are basically teaching the same stuff—that God has authorized as His church with His authority. Along the way you get some of the perks (and some of the drawbacks) of organized religion.

[Robert Sinclair]

It can be his true church "if" they become equal in their temporal things, all things common among them, as instructed and commanded of Jesus Christ.♡