A key to helping understand the mysteries of godliness

[Zathura]

Seeing as this has been one of the few enlightening threads free of contention and tenets, lets keep it that way

I appreciate the posts that have put in this thread thus far.

The hardest part in this process that I've found is the "getting back up" part. Each time you fall, you are incredibly frustrated with yourself. I myself completely gave up for awhile, I couldn't handle the opposition. After my last fall, I have gotten up more slowly than all of the other times. The posts on this subject help me greatly, and encourage me to keep pushing onward.

I'm not trying to be negative or controversial. There are questions to be asked. For example, if you slide, can you slide right out? I know several who have, Denver Snuffer, Tim Malone, several from LDSFF, etc.

What happens if someone doesn't get back up? Alma asked if people were still born again.

I honestly don't know if we can equate "can you feel so now?" With activity in the church.
On my mission, I knew one lady who truly was born again and received the baptism of fire and Holy Ghost at the time of her confirmation.
She had a lot of problems in the church with some members and the Bishop and eventually stopped going to church.
When missionaries visit her, she testifies to them of the truthfulness of the church and the Book of Mormon.

While talking to her about the doctrine of Christ and the baptism of fire, she confirmed indeed that she did have the baptism of fire and Holy Ghost when she was confirmed, that she was filled from fire to head to toe and since then, receives marvelous answers to her prayers.
Even at that moment, she hadn't been to church in 2+ years, she went with her husband to his Christian church. She drinks coffee.
In spite of those things, I felt the Spirit very strongly while we spoke, and she explained that she now feels the Spirit as strongly as she ever did, and her testimony of the restored Gospel is as strong as ever.

Clearly she can "feel so now" , and yet she drinks coffee , and goes to a different church.

Things seem to be less and black and white that I've been taught them to be

[marc]

I'm not trying to be negative or controversial. There are questions to be asked. For example, if you slide, can you slide right out? I know several who have, Denver Snuffer, Tim Malone, several from LDSFF, etc.

What happens if someone doesn't get back up? Alma asked if people were still born again.

Good questions. I do believe people can slide out. King David did. So did King Solomon. Many others, too. Just today on Facebook, someone posted a meme about Abraham slaying Isaac, which would be considered sliding out. Abraham would argue otherwise. I'm sure Denver would, too. Personally speaking, I will do whatever the Lord requires of me, or at least I'd like to think so if I am to truly live the law of obedience and sacrifice.

[diligently seeking]

Peter had more fear in his life. John had more love in his life.  John the beloved like John the baptist was changed through conversion / being born of God etc. He was an example of a meek and quite soul. He had a heart that was soft and open to Christ's perfections,  attributes, and character being weaved into it. Adittionaly, Mysteries were weaved into his understanding / conscious being as a result of a healed and converted heart.  Peter, initially,  was open to receiving a testimony of life altering truths. However, initialy, he did not alow himself to be altered by these truths. He was full of passion and exuberance. His flesh had significant sway on decisions he made. When push came to shove with the difficulty of life upon him-- he literally and figuratively cut off a ear(s) In those pressing difficult mortal circumstances...  Where John was the embodiment of the Sermon on the Mount and tempered through the grace of Jesus-- such salvational truths for Peter had not yet become part and parcel with him.   Peter's conversion eventually occurred and what an exemplary Chief Apostle  he became... the study of these two gives through understanding of print and the quickening of the Spirit certain knowledge of decisions to make and not make so that one can better understand how to obtain the mysteries of godliness... What a gift!

[iWriteStuff]

Wow, what an amazing thread.... You guys definitely give a guy much to think about.

FWIW, I've been on that Pontius path outlined above off and on for about 15 years without really understanding it well until now. This adds a lot of necessary clarity.

[Dash jones]

I think people criticize Peter too much.

How many here would have the faith to walk on water?

Peter walked on water. Then his fear struck and he BEGAN to sink...but was saved. It is a great parallel to ourselves and faith, but in addition, it shows even at first...how great faith Peter must have had. Even without the storms and the waves, how many of us could walk on water even for a little ways?

Peter was FAR more converted than we, even before then in my opinion.

When we discuss his denial...we do not know all the circumstances. Many of us would say we would gladly have done the opposite of Peter in the same circumstance...but what if the following were true...seeing if Peter owned the fishing business and all others..

By your admission you would be executed along with the Lord. In addition...before that happened, you family would be tortured and killed before your eyes. Your wives and daughters ravished as they had no rights under Roman law and you are not as prominent a figure as the Lord...and hence able to be done away in secret (as they attempted to do with some apostles after the crucifixion). Through you, all your friends will be traced and all the twelve can also then be assembled and killed. Likewise...their families will be tortured and killed.

What would you do?

It may not have been that severe, or, knowing how the Romans did things and the Jews in the politics at times did things...it may have been far worse, just from a simple admission.

I think Peter had a testimony far stronger than what we can imagine. When we criticize his actions...we should realize if we criticize him...we are in so much deeper trouble and have so much farther to climb in faith.

I think there was far more going on when he made what we see as a terrible mistake. I think any one of us in the same position may be hard pressed to truly decide that we would make a different decision, ESPECIALLY if it meant the destruction of your friends, family, and perhaps the entire church if you did so. What choice could you make in that instance?

Was it bad...probably. Was it a terrible thing, probably. But who am I to criticize the chief apostle?

In regards to Peter and John, I think they had different missions, and as such different things they were to do in life.

[diligently seeking]

Dash, sincerly read 1corinthians chp 2-- then read the books in the bible suggested in the original post of this thread. Apply the questions posed in the original post on your search for discovery. Let Peter and the Holy ghost convince you of the great need to be favored as John the beloved was. John's example is one that we should emulate. I know that Peter sure did. It is elevating our weak flesh to our willing spirit/conversion to and through Christ that we are after, my brother--AND all the attendant blessings that follow that rebirth/ CONVERSION... Remember, God is no respecter of persons and desires for us to be joint heirs

[sandman45]

add this to our study

D&C 84:
19 And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.

20 Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.

21 And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;

22 For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.

23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.

25 Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also;

D&C 107:
18 The power and authority of the higher, or Melchizedek Priesthood, is to hold the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church—

19 To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant.

D&C 63:
23 But unto him that keepeth my commandments I will give the mysteries of my kingdom, and the same shall be in him a well of living water, springing up unto everlasting life.

But be warned just like as in Moses' day..

Alma 12:
9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know NOTHING concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

[zionminded]

Great thread going... it's time for me to chime in, I hope this is helpful for many of you seeking to ascend along this journey, whatever your goals are.

First.

A part of the repeat decent comes from 3 major areas. The first is what appears to be Satan's attack against us. The second is the guilt, fear or shame we pick up from the mistakes we make, and the last is the natural consequences from our choices (which include sins of commission AND omission). Once you go through this process again and again, you will learn a few things. One is, Satan only has as much power as you give him, the power of the atonement already happened, us it!. Next, the guilt, shame, or fear you get from mistakes, you realize are really nothing more than the baggage you CHOOSE to carry. Mind you, some of that guilt is needed, but I've found that most of isn't, or we keep it WAY too long, and I'm not talking about avoiding sin and the consequences (you must obey), but the extra baggage must be let go. You tend to be more obedient, and the REAL lesson is to learn to love, not to learn to fear. Lastly, natural consequences just don't phase you, because you're more obedient, and the ones out of your agency just don't affect you. Short story, the triggers are gone. You love more than anything, and you STOP descending through that cycle over-and-over. (At least not until the next step which includes higher principles of the ascension process). The process makes it "not about you".

Second.

While many think the church is *needed* for this process, the answer is, it isn't. However, many DO need to church, because they need the structure and framework, which includes many benefits. The purification and sanctification process is best done by the process of ordinances etc., but its not required, but its the best way. Some look to people who have left the church. For those who left Christ AND the church, the road is a dead end. For those who left the church (or the church booted them due to politics), but stay with Christ, the road is harder, but it's not impossible, this is a part of their journey. What IS needed is Christ, always and forever. The reason why isn't learned until you ascend farther up, it's not taught in church, but is in the scriptures from those who learned it. And yes, there are many outside the church who "ascend", but if Christ isn't at their head, they get stuck.

Third.

Today's LDS church has a great deal of truth to get you to this process, and help you through. They have wonderful priesthood keys and tools (temple etc.), that make it much easier. The church however isn't perfect, and it cannot do this process for you. We don't see it talked about much, because it's much more advanced than the agency of most members. But the truth is, it is a process between you and the Lord, not you and your Bishop, or any other man, period. And the church is simplifying their message in general. But in smaller circles, for those waking up, these discussions are being held more and more.

[diligently seeking]

I have discovered life and power through the temple, the priesthood, the sacrament, church, etc within the restored gospel. these things don't diminish my vital and very important personal relationship with Christ.

[zionminded]

I have discovered life and power through the temple, the priesthood, the sacrament, church, etc within the restored gospel. these things don't diminish my vital and very important personal relationship with Christ.

I agree.