A key to helping understand the mysteries of godliness

[diligently seeking]

There is no disputation on the power and SIGNIFICANCE of learning and assimilating the "character, perfections, and attributes of Christ!"

I submit that understanding the difference between Peter and John the Beloved in the new testament 4 gospels-- yields great "in print" and revelatory knowledge "from heaven" answers.

To be more clear-- what made John favored and beloved of our gracious Master? The glimpses we have of Peter and John/ and our understanding of the gospel through the BofM etc is quite revealing in answer to this question.

This discovery increases our understanding of the majesty/ character, perfections and attributes of God and Christ which = longed for SPIRITUAL GROWTH & ASCENSION!

I would encourage prayerful study of the book St John, the books of John 1,2,3, and the book of acts chp 1 through 5 and the books of Peter 1 and 2. In this order. Through this prayerful study you will discoverd what John had gained ( and how) and maintained all along ! Additionaly, you will discover through the grace and deep conversion of Peter through Christ and the power and signiificance of the Holy Ghost--- what Peter gained in abundance and maintained, aswell!

As we mine these veins of wonderful spiritual gold and take the encouraged approach of " likening all scriptures unto ourselves" expect similar growth! Resulting in conversion/mighty change of heart that will fill you with optimism on the SPECIAL COUNCIL Peter gives that we should and CAN ☆obtain☆ After our rebirth!

"Truly it is life eternal to know God and Jesus whom he has sent, and that we are to perfect ourselves in them, that is , to verily become the manner of persons that they are through learning and assimilating their character, perfections, and attributes.


How unserpassing in value is the quest to obtain the mysteries of godliness in this probationary period of our exsistance... ←← (statement)

I would very much like to share what I have learned. I will wait to learn what any of you have learned and share. In other words, learn through sincere inquiry and revelation before I offer my simple commentary. However, don't let my delay prevent you from offering immediate insight and commentary based on your discoveries or what you already know based on original questions in my O.P.

Love and grattitude for you my wonderfull ldsff soujourners of learned and applied divine truth! . JB

[True]

Don't tell me yet, I haven't had time to read those passages but have been wondering lately how I can be beloved like John, like Daniel.

[True]

Still reading, don't give up on me. I am slow bc I get sidetracked with cross referencing.

[Zathura]

What a relief it is to read a wholesome thread!

I love the Gospel of John!

I appreciate the fact that you encourage readers to follow Peters teaching and seek for the next blessing after rebirth

[marc]

I would encourage prayerful study of the book St John, the books of John 1,2,3, and the book of acts chp 1 through 5 and the books of Peter 1 and 2. In this order. Through this prayerful study you will discoverd what John had gained ( and how) and maintained all along ! Additionaly, you will discover through the grace and deep conversion of Peter through Christ and the power and signiificance of the Holy Ghost--- what Peter gained in abundance and maintained, aswell!

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

[marc]

John Pontius, author of Following the Light of Christ Back Into His Presence, created this diagram for his book with an insightful explanation. I gave my copy away so I have to rely on memory. My friend who now has it sent me a copy of the image because it is something that is helpful to understand this journey. It is self explanatory, though. Verse nine in the scripture I quoted above refers to the rebirth, or in other words, being baptized with fire and the Holy Ghost. When people forget about this, as Peter wrote, they backslide due to opposition.

But with firm resolve in seeking one's C&E, and in spite of Satan's very real efforts to undermine one's progress, the time does come when one actually receives the promise. Some of you no doubt can relate to this process and just how easy it is to feel alone and weighed down heavily with each climb. I don't know how often I have experienced backsliding and firm resolve to continue only to discover again how weak I am. One truly requires a firm mind in every form of godliness as Moroni suggests.

It's like climbing Mt. Everest alone. Each person must experience that valley of the shadow of death, that Gethsemane, that Liberty Jail, that bitter cup, which feels like an eternity to drink down. It requires so much faith and strength, which only the Lord can give, that you are challenged beyond the breaking point. But that is the whole point. Just as Christ was challenged beyond His breaking point, one, which only His Father could give Him power to overcome, so too must we endure past our breaking point. It must be this way. Christ did not have the power to overcome the world without His Father's power and likewise, we cannot overcome sin and death without Christ's power.

[diligently seeking]

John Pontius, author of Following the Light of Christ Back Into His Presence, created this diagram for his book with an insightful explanation. I gave my copy away so I have to rely on memory. My friend who now has it sent me a copy of the image because it is something that is helpful to understand this journey. It is self explanatory, though. Verse nine in the scripture I quoted above refers to the rebirth, or in other words, being baptized with fire and the Holy Ghost. When people forget about this, as Peter wrote, they backslide due to opposition.

But with firm resolve in seeking one's C&E, and in spite of Satan's very real efforts to undermine one's progress, the time does come when one actually receives the promise. Some of you no doubt can relate to this process and just how easy it is to feel alone and weighed down heavily with each climb. I don't know how often I have experienced backsliding and firm resolve to continue only to discover again how weak I am. One truly requires a firm mind in every form of godliness as Moroni suggests.

It's like climbing Mt. Everest alone. Each person must experience that valley of the shadow of death, that Gethsemane, that Liberty Jail, that bitter cup, which feels like an eternity to drink down. It requires so much faith and strength, which only the Lord can give, that you are challenged beyond the breaking point. But that is the whole point. Just as Christ was challenged beyond His breaking point, one, which only His Father could give Him power to overcome, so too must we endure past our breaking point. It must be this way. Christ did not have the power to overcome the world without His Father's power and likewise, we cannot overcome sin and death without Christ's power.

Amen and amen....

[marc]

Here's the reality. After I was born again, I was on such a spiritual high. It lasted a couple weeks or so back in Feb. 2012. Then the Lord withdrew as a parent would who is teaching his toddler to walk. I suddenly felt alone, confused and abandoned. It took me about a year to figure out that I needed to continue seeking Christ. So from that low point after the "honeymoon period," and understanding that seeking my C&E was the next gift, I began the journey. And it has looked something like this picture.

Each time I climbed or tried climbing, Satan knocked me back down. Each time I climbed a little higher. This has been the process. The power of the atonement is knowing that Jesus Christ forgives readily each time I repent and recommit. There is nothing easy about experiencing sacrifice and obedience. Proving one's self trustworthy as a servant and friend of Christ truly requires one to literally pray always and not faint. If you faint, down the slope you go.

Such commitment requires you to serve and obey with ALL your heart, might, mind and strength. If you don't keep your eye single, you become distracted and down the slope you go. But if you want the Lord to talk to you, you learn just how much time it requires to listen, hence His admonition to "Be still and know that I am God."

[Analyzing]

Here's the reality. After I was born again, I was on such a spiritual high. It lasted a couple weeks or so back in Feb. 2012. Then the Lord withdrew as a parent would who is teaching his toddler to walk. I suddenly felt alone, confused and abandoned. It took me about a year to figure out that I needed to continue seeking Christ. So from that low point after the "honeymoon period," and understanding that seeking my C&E was the next gift, I began the journey.

Why does it matter that subjects, such as this, are not shared, discussed and taught more explicitly within the Church?

Not knowing what I had initially experienced it took me about a year and a half to two years to figure out that I, must have, lost my worthiness to have the Spirit, such as in the past. I sought counsel. I was essentially told that I had too high of expectations. This was confusion for me. I thought I did something wrong. Because I thought I did something wrong, I did do something wrong, and I fell. Had I known the information you and JaredBees have shown here that would not have happened.

Edit: Originally did not include JaredBees by name.

[marc]

Here's the reality. After I was born again, I was on such a spiritual high. It lasted a couple weeks or so back in Feb. 2012. Then the Lord withdrew as a parent would who is teaching his toddler to walk. I suddenly felt alone, confused and abandoned. It took me about a year to figure out that I needed to continue seeking Christ. So from that low point after the "honeymoon period," and understanding that seeking my C&E was the next gift, I began the journey.

Why does it matter that subjects, such as this, are not shared, discussed and taught more explicitly within the Church?

Not knowing what I had initially experienced it took me about a year and a half to two years to figure out that I, must have, lost my worthiness to have the Spirit, such as in the past. I sought counsel. I was essentially told that I had too high of expectations. This was confusion for me. I thought I did something wrong. Because I thought I did something wrong, I did do something wrong, and I fell. Had I known the information you have shown here that would not have happened.

Because while many have heard about C&E (my gospel doctrine teacher mentioned it in passing in our previous class as we were studying 2 Peter), very few really understand what it is, what it means and the very process involved. Few know to make the climb. And therefore, there isn't much at all to discuss. People simply cannot relate to the subject and conclude that it's something we should not seek and rationalize why we do not or should not seek such things. And as evidence, one need only search this forum for discussions, where much resistance to the subject has been shown.

[Zathura]

Marc thank you for that.

My experience was the same. When I was born of God, the Spirit was with me in a way I never imagined possible for about a week. My chest felt like there was a burning coal in it. From the moment I woke up each morning until the time I went to sleep, I felt a burning in my bosom. I received more answers as I prayed and studied the scriptures.
I received many warnings as well. I asked for very specific things to occur which happened the very next day.

One morning I awoke and went to pray, and the feeling was gone. I felt despair, I thought I had made a mistake and couldn't figure out why it had left me.
The difference between that week and the morning that it left me was like night and day.
During that week I was not tempted, I couldn't be. Following that week, I felt much more opposition.
I grew weary, I didn't know what to search for. I studied a little less, and the inevitable decline occurred. I've experienced many ups and downs since then.

Interesting that you shared that graph that Brother Pontius made.. On my mission when I explained to my Mission President about my conversion process, I drew him a graph almost identical to that, only without any writing. The same Spirit truly does teach all people the same truths.

[True]

I found Brother Pontius' graph AFTER I learned about it through experience. My whole life I tried and failed, tried and failed. Then I decided I would rise every time I fell. EVERY TIME. I wouldn't be discouraged. My whole life I felt like I could not serve God, I was the most unprofitable servant but how I wanted to serve Him! It made my life pretty miserable. I would be doing great and then I would fall. Being discouraged, I would step off the path because there was just too much resistance. When I started following the spirit, it whispered that I could trust Christ to forgive me every time that I fell. Each day I would awake knowing that it was a new day and whatever failures there were in the past, this day belonged to Christ and He would forgive and help me. It took real effort to go on despite my incredible failures. But I did it. Everyday I would let his atonement wipe the slate clean and with a trusting and happy heart, I would go forward.
If you read Bro. Pontuis' book, he talks about the decline being necessary. IT WILL HAPPEN. It is how you grow. You are tested at a higher level, because you have new spiritual strength. And because you have not faced this level of opposition before, you decline. As soon as you discover how to use your new spiritual strength (keep turning to Christ), you will gain a new spiritual plane and rise again. The process keeps repeating. This would have saved me years of heart-ache to know this before. I thought the decline was my failure and not an process that would lead me somewhere. John Pontius had a gift of stating things simply, but I discovered it on my own through following the spirit. When I saw it, I knew it was true. It was the reason, in a graph, why I had finally been successful. I am not sure if I had seen it before, if I really would have internalized it. When I tell people about it, it doesn't seem life changing, like it was for me - but I think that is because I discovered it on my own. Is that the craziest statement you've ever heard? I mean, the Lord taught me. How wonderful is that?!

[Zathura]

Here's the reality. After I was born again, I was on such a spiritual high. It lasted a couple weeks or so back in Feb. 2012. Then the Lord withdrew as a parent would who is teaching his toddler to walk. I suddenly felt alone, confused and abandoned. It took me about a year to figure out that I needed to continue seeking Christ. So from that low point after the "honeymoon period," and understanding that seeking my C&E was the next gift, I began the journey.

Why does it matter that subjects, such as this, are not shared, discussed and taught more explicitly within the Church?

Not knowing what I had initially experienced it took me about a year and a half to two years to figure out that I, must have, lost my worthiness to have the Spirit, such as in the past. I sought counsel. I was essentially told that I had too high of expectations. This was confusion for me. I thought I did something wrong. Because I thought I did something wrong, I did do something wrong, and I fell. Had I known the information you have shown here that would not have happened.

Because while many have heard about C&E (my gospel doctrine teacher mentioned it in passing in our previous class as we were studying 2 Peter), very few really understand what it is, what it means and the very process involved. Few know to make the climb. And therefore, there isn't much at all to discuss. People simply cannot relate to the subject and conclude that it's something we should not seek and rationalize why we do not or should not seek such things. And as evidence, one need only search this forum for discussions, where much resistance to the subject has been shown.

[Zathura]

Had I known the information you have shown here that would not have happened.

For this reason, I continually speak of the doctrine of Christ and the process of being born again. There are many people who do not have the information, and therefore struggle and fall short without knowing what they need to do or seek.
This is why it's our responsibility to testify of such truths, even when it is met with resistance.

I thought that I was born of God when I was 8 because of tradition. If this information was brought to me years ago, perhaps I wouldn't have had some of the struggles I had, I wouldn't have had to go through the pain of shedding some unbelief that I had.

It's our responsibility to share our "fruit" with others, which fruit is most delicious to taste.

[diligently seeking]

Yes, encouragement I would give is DO NOT let up on your journey to grow and ascend spiritualy when opposition confronts. Please take comfort and your cues from Stalwart Nephi.

2nephi 4:
15 And upon these I write the things of my soul, and many of the scriptures which are engraven upon the plates of brass. For my soul delighteth in the scriptures, and my heartpondereth them, and writeth them for thelearning and the profit of my children.

16 Behold, my souldelighteth in the things of the Lord; and my heartpondereth continually upon the things which I have seen and heard.

17 Nevertheless, notwithstanding the greatgoodness of the Lord, in showing me his great and marvelous works, my heart exclaimeth: O wretchedman that I am! Yea, my heart sorroweth because of my flesh; my soul grieveth because of mine iniquities.

18 I am encompassed about, because of the temptations and the sins which do so easily besetme.

19 And when I desire to rejoice, my heart groaneth because of my sins; nevertheless, I know in whom I have trusted.

20 My God hath been mysupport; he hath led me through mine afflictions in the wilderness; and he hath preserved me upon the waters of the great deep.

21 He hath filled me with his love, even unto theconsuming of my flesh.

22 He hath confounded mine enemies, unto the causing of them to quake before me.

23 Behold, he hath heard my cry by day, and he hath given me knowledge byvisions in the night-time.

24 And by day have I waxed bold in mighty prayerbefore him; yea, my voice have I sent up on high; and angels came down and ministered unto me.

25 And upon the wings of his Spirit hath my body been carried away upon exceedingly high mountains. And mine eyes have beheld great things, yea, even too great for man; therefore I was bidden that I should not write them.

26 O then, if I have seen so great things, if the Lord in his condescension unto the children of men hathvisited men in so muchmercy, why should myheart weep and my soul linger in the valley of sorrow, and my flesh waste away, and my strength slacken, because of mine afflictions?

27 And why should I yieldto sin, because of my flesh? Yea, why should I give way to temptations, that the evil one have place in my heart to destroy my peace and afflict my soul? Why am Iangry because of mine enemy?

28 Awake, my soul! No longer droop in sin. Rejoice, O my heart, and give place no more for the enemy of my soul.29 Do not anger again because of mine enemies. ★Do not slacken my strength because of mine afflictions.★

30 Rejoice, O my heart, and cry unto the Lord, and say: O Lord, I will praise thee forever; yea, my soul will rejoice in thee, my God, and the rock of my salvation.

31 O Lord, wilt thou redeemmy soul? Wilt thou deliver me out of the hands of mine enemies? Wilt thou make me that I may shake at the appearance of sin?

32 May the gates of hell be shut continually before me, because that my heart is broken and my spirit is contrite! O Lord, wilt thou not shut the gates of thy righteousness before me, that I may walk in the path of the low valley, that I may be strict in the plain road!

33 O Lord, wilt thou encircle me around in the robe of thy righteousness! O Lord, wilt thou make a way for mine escape before mine enemies! Wilt thou make my path straight before me! Wilt thou not place a stumbling block in my way—but that thou wouldst clear my way before me, and hedge not up my way, but the ways of mine enemy.

34 O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put mytrust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.

35 Yea, I know that God will give liberally to him that asketh. Yea, my God will give me, if I ask not amiss; therefore I will lift up my voice unto thee; yea, I will cry unto thee, my God, therock of my righteousness. Behold, my voice shall forever ascend up unto thee, my rock and mine everlasting God. Amen.



Mormon 8
(Satan desires desperately for us to be this)↓

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? →→Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

We counter such traps through this↓

2nephi 9
18 But, behold, therighteous, the saints of the Holy One of Israel, they who have believed in the Holy One of Israel, they who have endured the crosses of the world, and despised the shame of it, they shall inherit thekingdom of God, which was prepared for them from the foundation of the world, and their joy shall be fullforever... 49 Behold, my soul abhorreth sin, and my heart delighteth in righteousness; and I willpraise the holy name of my God.

50 Come, my brethren, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters; and he that hath no money, come buy and eat; yea, come buy wine and milk without money and without price.

51 Wherefore, do not spend money for that which is of no worth, nor your laborfor that which cannotsatisfy. Hearken diligently unto me, and remember the words which I have spoken; and come unto the Holy One of Israel, and feastupon that which perisheth not, neither can be corrupted, and let your soul delight in fatness.

52 Behold, my beloved brethren, remember the words of your God; pray unto him continually by day, and give thanks unto his holy name by night. Let your hearts rejoice.

Alma 37:

33 Preach unto them repentance, and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ; teach them to humble themselves and to be meek and lowly in heart; teach them towithstand every temptationof the devil, with their faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

34 Teach them to never beweary of good works, but to be meek and lowly in heart; for such shall find rest to their souls.

35 O, remember, my son, and learn wisdom in thyyouth; yea, learn in thy youth to keep the commandments of God.

36 Yea, and cry unto God for all thy support; yea, let all thy doings be unto the Lord, and whithersoever thou goest let it be in the Lord; yea, let all thythoughts be directed unto the Lord; yea, let the affections of thy heart be placed upon the Lord forever.

37 Counsel with the Lord in all thy doings, and he will direct thee for good; yea, when thou liest down at night lie down unto the Lord, that he may watch over you in your sleep; and when thou risest in themorning let thy heart be full of thanks unto God; and if ye do these things, ye shall be lifted up at the last day.

38 And now, my son, I have somewhat to say concerning the thing which our fathers call a ball, or director—or our fathers called it Liahona, which is, being interpreted, a compass; and the Lord prepared it.

39 And behold, there cannot any man work after the manner of so curious a workmanship. And behold, it was prepared to show unto our fathers the course which they should travel in the wilderness.

40 And it did work for them according to their faith in God; therefore, if they had faith to believe that God could cause that those spindles should point the way they should go, behold, it was done; therefore they had this miracle, and also many other miracles wrought by the power of God, day by day.

41 Nevertheless, because those miracles were worked by small means it did show unto them marvelous works. They were slothful, and forgot to exercise their faith and diligence and then those marvelous works ceased, and they did not progress in their journey;

42 Therefore, they tarried in the wilderness, or did nottravel a direct course, and were afflicted with hunger and thirst, because of their transgressions.43 And now, my son, I would that ye should understand that these things are not without ashadow; for as our fathers were slothful to give heed to this compass (now these things were temporal) they did not prosper; even so it is with things which are spiritual.

44 For behold, it is as easy to give heed to the word of Christ, which will point to you a straight course to eternal bliss, as it was for our fathers to give heed to this compass, which would point unto them a straight course to the promised land.

45 And now I say, is there not a type in this thing? For just as surely as this director did bring our fathers, by following its course, to the promised land, shall the words of Christ, if we follow their course, carry us beyond this vale of sorrow into a far better land of promise.

46 O my son, do not let us be slothful because of theeasiness of the way; for so was it with our fathers; for so was it prepared for them, that if they wouldlook they might live; even so it is with us. The way is prepared, and if we will look we may live forever.

47 And now, my son, see that ye take care of these sacred things, yea, see that ye look to God and live. Go unto this people and declare the word, and be sober. My son, farewell.

[marc]

Speaking of those low points, which cause us to to stumble, feel sorrow, alone, abandoned, weak, foolish, etc, it is a necessary thing to experience trials and failures. How ironic that we need a body to become exalted, and yet it is the flesh, which makes us weak to stumble. I'm reminded of what a good friend once said:

When you're sick of being divided against yourself, when you're tired of everything you set your own hand to turning to dust, when you tire of being what you are, then you can change. That's why God sends famines, fires, floods, and killer bees. He's lowering the opportunity cost of repentance until the only thing left to sacrifice is one's heart.

[Thinker]

Did I miss a memo?
Has God changed now, to be a "respector of persons"?

My idea of Christ and anybody Christ-like is someone who is willing to descend to relate to anybody enough to lift them up.
I wouldn't consider a Christ-like person to be one who brags about how they have no guile and have been made better than others with a special "calling and election."
Those are tools of the adversary - of pride.

The way to connect with God is not just once and for all - and no more need, but rather is ongoing - eternal.
And, it's based on humble gratitude - not taking praises, but seeking God's will above all.

[rewcox]

Can you be born again and stay active in the church and not doubt the church and leaders?

Pontius seemed to be able to.

[marc]

Did I miss a memo?
Has God changed now, to be a "respector of persons"?

My idea of Christ and anybody Christ-like is someone who is willing to descend to relate to anybody enough to lift them up.
I wouldn't consider a Christ-like person to be one who brags about how they have no guile and have been made better than others with a special "calling and election."
Those are tools of the adversary - of pride.

The way to connect with God is not just once and for all - and no more need, but rather is ongoing - eternal.
And, it's based on humble gratitude - not taking praises, but seeking God's will above all.

It sounds like you are addressing me based on some wording in your comment alluding to my posts. Since we don't know each other, I can understand why you think I'm bragging. Please believe that I am not bragging. Of course God is no respecter of persons, which is why anyone may obtain the gifts mentioned in this discussion.

[Thinker]

Can you be born again and stay active in the church and not doubt the church and leaders?

Pontius seemed to be able to.

Pontius Pilate??

Being born again (and again and again...) is essentially having your eyes opened again and again.
Initially, children see their parents as gods who can do no wrong. Then, line upon line, their eyes are open and they learn for themselves that their parents are not perfect gods. But many yearn for parental authority to tell them what to think and do, and worshipping some authority may be a step up from previous authority, but it is not over. Ideally, we progress eternally. Gospel/good news is dynamic - not static!

Eventually, we come to see that all else - even prophets - will fail, except pure love (God) - and we become increasingly loyal to God above anybody or anything else. And that is how we come to be entrusted with the mysteries of God.

[Zathura]

Seeing as this has been one of the few enlightening threads free of contention and tenets, lets keep it that way

I appreciate the posts that have put in this thread thus far.

The hardest part in this process that I've found is the "getting back up" part. Each time you fall, you are incredibly frustrated with yourself. I myself completely gave up for awhile, I couldn't handle the opposition. After my last fall, I have gotten up more slowly than all of the other times. The posts on this subject help me greatly, and encourage me to keep pushing onward.

[marc]

Pontius Pilate??

John Pontius.

http://www.amazon.com/Following-Light-C ... bc?ie=UTF8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[rewcox]

Seeing as this has been one of the few enlightening threads free of contention and tenets, lets keep it that way

I appreciate the posts that have put in this thread thus far.

The hardest part in this process that I've found is the "getting back up" part. Each time you fall, you are incredibly frustrated with yourself. I myself completely gave up for awhile, I couldn't handle the opposition. After my last fall, I have gotten up more slowly than all of the other times. The posts on this subject help me greatly, and encourage me to keep pushing onward.

I'm not trying to be negative or controversial. There are questions to be asked. For example, if you slide, can you slide right out? I know several who have, Denver Snuffer, Tim Malone, several from LDSFF, etc.

What happens if someone doesn't get back up? Alma asked if people were still born again.

[Thinker]

Seeing as this has been one of the few enlightening threads free of contention and tenets, lets keep it that way

Why do you post this after my post?

I don't like contention for the sake of contention, but I do believe in calling truth what it is, even if some take it to be hard. In church, we can't be open and honest - this forum is for discussion of various views. Just because someone sees things differently than you do doesn't mean they're being contentious.

[Zathura]

To be clear, I don't think anybody has been contentious here. I just want this thread to stay in the state its in, and the topics being brought up are volatile , so I'm just saying to take care