LDS Freedom Forum

Alma 4:10

10 And thus ended the eighth year of the reign of the judges; and the wickedness of the church was a great stumbling-block to those who did not belong to the church; and thus the church began to fail in its progress.

Was this only possible in Nephi's time? Can this happen today?

Could members of the church become so wicked(prideful,arrogant, lustful,vain,puffed up, lazy, or in Nephi's words,"preach up unto themselves their own wisdom and their own learning" etc.) to the point that the church begins to fail, and become a stumbling block for others who otherwise would receive the fullness of the Gospel?

The amount of conversions to the church have slowed. I think between 2012-2014 the increase of baptisms in each year was less that 4 % in spite of having what, 60% more missionaries?

Is this telling at all? Is this because of the wickedness of the world? Or is it a lack of faith from members/missionaries?

Are we safe that this will not happen? If so ,what makes us safe?

Can this happen today? If so, how could this possibly happen to the LDS Church?

Stahura wrote:Can this happen today? If so, could this possibly happen to the LDS Church?

No, the righteous pride cycle of the Nephite church we like to go on and on about is only academic.

ajax wrote:

Stahura wrote:Can this happen today? If so, could this possibly happen to the LDS Church?

No, the righteous pride cycle of the Nephite church we like to go on and on about is only academic.

So, through your sarcasm, it looks like you're saying that there is a general attitude and belief that something so horrible couldn't POSSIBLY happen to the CHURCH in our day, only in Nephi's time. The pride cycle of the Nephites is just a story that keeps us from repeating the same mistake..

Did i translate correctly?

Yes, impossible. Our genetics and pioneer heritage make it so.

It's ALL academic.

Pride cycle...pfft.
Mormon 8...pfft.
Alma 31...pfft.

and on and on.

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon

I mean, we really ought to know better. This is an old argument here, if the BoM doesn't apply to us, the church, who the hell does it apply to? Oh yeah, everybody else.

ajax wrote:Yes, impossible. Our genetics and pioneer heritage make it so.

It's ALL academic.

Pride cycle...pfft.
Mormon 8...pfft.
Alma 31...pfft.

and on and on.

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon

I mean, we really ought to know better. This is an old argument here, if the BoM doesn't apply to us, the church, who the hell does it apply to? Oh yeah, everybody else.

It must apply to the 7 billion people who will never read the book

I think we need to look at why people aren't joining. Is it because of their own pride and wickedness or is it because they perceive the church as being wicked?
We have prophecies from the OT and NT (and latter day prophecies, too) that in the latter days the world will become wicked and reject the Gospel. Do you suspect those were false prophecies?

shadow wrote:I think we need to look at why people aren't joining. Is it because of their own pride and wickedness or is it because they perceive the church as being wicked?
We have prophecies from the OT and NT (and latter day prophecies, too) that in the latter days the world will become wicked and reject the Gospel. Do you suspect those were false prophecies?

That's one of the questions I asked. It was open ended, I invite a discussion. Are conversions slowing because the world is more wicked? The world is too lazy to go to church, doesn't want to give up their vices etc.



My opinion is that it's a mixture of both.
I think there is a lack of true faith in members/missionaries, myself included. Otherwise the gifts of the Holy Ghost would be more evident, there would be more ministering of Angels, more miracles etc. Instead of the missionaries saying "Angels never appear because it's not God's will" I think they need to be saying "Angels rarely appear because faith has ceased."

I also think the world is rapidly becoming more wicked.
Investigators don't want to "waste" their sunday. They don't want to give up alcohol, they don't want callings. They don't want to marry the person they've been with for years etc.

Stahura wrote:I also think the world is rapidly becoming more wicked.
Investigators don't want to "waste" their sunday. They don't want to give up alcohol, they don't want callings. They don't want to marry the person they've been with for years etc.

Not sure if any of this equals wickedness.

I believe it to be a little of both. There is MUCH pride in the church, and also most definitely in the world. Any that recognize their own pride, turn from it and allow the Savior to change their very nature will be the ones to inherit. Boy do I need to work on my pride.

ajax wrote:

Stahura wrote:I also think the world is rapidly becoming more wicked.
Investigators don't want to "waste" their sunday. They don't want to give up alcohol, they don't want callings. They don't want to marry the person they've been with for years etc.

Not sure if any of this equals wickedness.

add to it and type what actually is wickedness then

shadow wrote:I think we need to look at why people aren't joining. Is it because of their own pride and wickedness or is it because they perceive the church as being wicked?
We have prophecies from the OT and NT (and latter day prophecies, too) that in the latter days the world will become wicked and reject the Gospel. Do you suspect those were false prophecies?

Amen. Have we become so neurotic that we have to look in the mirror every time a baptism falls through?

I tried that on my mission until ultimately I discovered some folks have this thing called agency and maybe they were using it to choose not to join a church.

Whodathunkit, eh?

Can you deny that there is lack of faith?

iWriteStuff wrote:

shadow wrote:I think we need to look at why people aren't joining. Is it because of their own pride and wickedness or is it because they perceive the church as being wicked?
We have prophecies from the OT and NT (and latter day prophecies, too) that in the latter days the world will become wicked and reject the Gospel. Do you suspect those were false prophecies?

Amen. Have we become so neurotic that we have to look in the mirror every time a baptism falls through?

I tried that on my mission until ultimately I discovered some folks have this thing called agency and maybe they were using it to choose not to join a church.

Whodathunkit, eh?

I think that if we as a people would practice what we preach a ton more people would join the church. But because of our own pride and hypocritical nature of the members we push a lot of them away.
That push, that chip on our shoulders is the stumbleing block of others to join the church.

If we lived as we should our light our example our presence would be what inspired others to want what we got. But as it is only a few members have that in their lifes to the point that others want and recognize what they have.

If our presence and life is not much different then their own. Well they don't get the grass is better on the other side of the fence feeling. Cuz we are just as muddy as they are.

Could it be because we do not obey section 107 of the doctrine and covenants? That is certainly why many leave the church...

I often see an attitude of :

"we know more than the world" "We have the most truth" "I already received my own revelations, I don't need to search for more"
This is problematic for me..

isaacs2066 wrote:Could it be because we do not obey section 107 of the doctrine and covenants? That is certainly why many leave the church...

Specifically which parts?

ajax wrote:

Stahura wrote:I also think the world is rapidly becoming more wicked.
Investigators don't want to "waste" their sunday. They don't want to give up alcohol, they don't want callings. They don't want to marry the person they've been with for years etc.

Not sure if any of this equals wickedness.

how would you define wickedness?

I agree. Wickedness and pride of members can be a stumbling block for non-members who use that as a justification for not looking further into the Church. The Church will not be immune from judgement and from cleansing. Doesn't mean we need to renounce our membership.

Alma 4:10 can apply today. It is said that the Book of Mormon is a pattern for our day and history can repeat itself if we do not learn from it. The only thing that we have been promised in this matter is that the Church will not fall into complete apostasy again. That does not mean the Church can not fall into substantial apostasy. That does not mean the church can't regress. It is possible that the Church could experience for the 2nd coming similar conditions that it did in 3 Nephi before Christ came to the Nephites. A struggling church with wickedness all around them banging on the door.

carbon dioxide wrote:Alma 4:10 can apply today. It is said that the Book of Mormon is a pattern for our day and history can repeat itself if we do not learn from it. The only thing that we have been promised in this matter is that the Church will not fall into complete apostasy again. That does not mean the Church can not fall into substantial apostasy. That does not mean the church can't regress. It is possible that the Church could experience for the 2nd coming similar conditions that it did in 3 Nephi before Christ came to the Nephites. A struggling church with wickedness all around them banging on the door.

I've never considered this before... Complete Apostasy/Substatial Apostasy. You see, the way Denver Snuffer put it really confused me ,that the Church is in state of total apostasy. It doesn't seem that it can be TOTALLY apostate, thats my opinion. I think what you suggest is possible. Partial Apostasy? I find that possible.. not saying that's what has happened, but I do think it's possible. Good input.

ajax wrote:

Stahura wrote:I also think the world is rapidly becoming more wicked.
Investigators don't want to "waste" their sunday. They don't want to give up alcohol, they don't want callings. They don't want to marry the person they've been with for years etc.

Not sure if any of this equals wickedness.

Not keeping the sabbath day holy ='s wickedness.
Being a slothful servant ='s wickedness.
Breaking commandments like the law of chastity, which isn't just a Mormon thing, ='s wickedness.
I'm confident those things stahura mentioned are wickedness.

Choosing not to worship as you say or in the building you designate = not wickedness
Drinking a beer = not wickedness
Choosing not to work in the nursery = not wickedness
Common law marriage = not wickedness

Pointing out these innocuous things in others as wickedness = wickedness

I also think things like plural marriage and the priesthood restriction were/are stumbling blocks for many people.
Can this be down to wickedness on the church's part?

Stahura wrote:

carbon dioxide wrote:Alma 4:10 can apply today. It is said that the Book of Mormon is a pattern for our day and history can repeat itself if we do not learn from it. The only thing that we have been promised in this matter is that the Church will not fall into complete apostasy again. That does not mean the Church can not fall into substantial apostasy. That does not mean the church can't regress. It is possible that the Church could experience for the 2nd coming similar conditions that it did in 3 Nephi before Christ came to the Nephites. A struggling church with wickedness all around them banging on the door.

I've never considered this before... Complete Apostasy/Substatial Apostasy. You see, the way Denver Snuffer put it really confused me ,that the Church is in state of total apostasy. It doesn't seem that it can be TOTALLY apostate, thats my opinion. I think what you suggest is possible. Partial Apostasy? I find that possible.. not saying that's what has happened, but I do think it's possible. Good input.

I'll say this, Stahura: if you're not BofR, you sure are starting to sound like him. Gradually talking/reasoning yourself out of the church one "conclusion" at a time.

"Oh no, we're not TOTALLY apostate, just mostly."
"The members aren't TOTALLY bad, just mostly a stumbling block."
"Brigham Young wasn't TOTALLY wrong, just way up in the night about polygamy."
"The Brethren aren't TOTALLY incorrect, but they sure do make a lot of bad statements and doctrinally inaccurate positions."

These are steps. But mind where the path is taking you.

Here is a measure of our spiritual wellness as a Church.

60% males currently have or have had pornography addiction orb habit.

Women in Church are catching up with that.

HT: 10, 20, 30%

We are addicted to sex and don't love our neighbor. We pretty much reflect the rest of the world.

I see rampant materialism and hedonism.

The world doesn't need to join our organization to get those things.

-Finrock