If God ended polygamy in 1890, but members(leaders) didn't stop..

[sandman45]

Romans 5:12 says they sinned!

transgression = evildoing, actus reus
sin = evildoing, transgression, an act that is regarded by theologians as a transgression of

so... what do you say about all the quotes from Lehi, Nephi, Joseph, Brigham, Bruce, JFS etc about how our first parents did NOT sin?

- Are you disregarding their comments on the topic since they dont agree with what you personally believe?

- Are you just picking and choosing from the Doctrine like its a buffet....instead of trying to accept and learn all of it like you should when your parents tell you broccoli is good for you..?

don't reject pieces of doctrine that you do not personally and fully understand..

[sandman45]

Also @FFA

the Jehovah in the endowment is not Jesus...

so Michael/Adam is not the Father of Jehovah.. but he is the Father of Jesus

[Zathura]

Also @FFA

the Jehovah in the endowment is not Jesus...

so Michael/Adam is not the Father of Jehovah.. but he is the Father of Jesus

I don't even...
Then who on earth is the Jehovah in the endowment?

So when Elohim mentions a Savior coming to the world to save them and the camera slowly zooms in on Jehovah as he smiles and shows emotion at the mention of the Savior, that's not indicating that Jehovah is that same Savior(Jesus)?

I'm incredibly confused

[Fiannan]

Can God create a rock so big he cannot lift it?

Come on people, as Hillary would say, "What difference does it make?"

[Dash jones]

Can God create a rock so big he cannot lift it?

Come on people, as Hillary would say, "What difference does it make?"

People who ask the question do not understand what Omnipotent is.

It is akin to asking, could the Lord do something so that he is no longer the Lord. Could he make himself so that he is not Omnipotent or the Lord anymore.

In LDS beliefs, perhaps it is in theory possible, but the Lord would never do that. Hence, yes He COULD DO THAT. He could make a rock and cease to be Lord and wouldn't be able to lift it possibly...as he ceases to be omnipotent...but he WOULD NOT DO THAT. To postulate on that would be ridiculous.

[slimjamm]

Also @FFA

the Jehovah in the endowment is not Jesus...

so Michael/Adam is not the Father of Jehovah.. but he is the Father of Jesus

I don't even...
Then who on earth is the Jehovah in the endowment?

So when Elohim mentions a Savior coming to the world to save them and the camera slowly zooms in on Jehovah as he smiles and shows emotion at the mention of the Savior, that's not indicating that Jehovah is that same Savior(Jesus)?

I'm incredibly confused

Could it possibly be the Savior from Michael's world?? Everything is patterned. Go read Joseph's, King Follet discourse. Also, I wouldn't put too much into the video itself as being a correct visual interpretation of anything.

[Zathura]

Also @FFA

the Jehovah in the endowment is not Jesus...

so Michael/Adam is not the Father of Jehovah.. but he is the Father of Jesus

I don't even...
Then who on earth is the Jehovah in the endowment?

So when Elohim mentions a Savior coming to the world to save them and the camera slowly zooms in on Jehovah as he smiles and shows emotion at the mention of the Savior, that's not indicating that Jehovah is that same Savior(Jesus)?

I'm incredibly confused

Could it possibly be the Savior from Michael's world?? Everything is patterned. Go read Joseph's, King Follet discourse. Also, I wouldn't put too much into the video itself as being a correct visual interpretation of anything.

The new videos are a reflection of what our current leaders believe, so unless you think our current leaders are changing the endowment and the identity of Jehovah, the video proves that Jehovah is Jesus. That's fine if it's your opinion, I don't care either way.

I don't see why the video would have a Savior from a previous world in it, one that has nothing to do with me. Believing that it wasn't Jesus that created the worlds and was the great Jehovah greatly reduces the mission of Jesus

[Ezra]

Op

What if God only commanded to end polygamy because the U.S. Made it illegal and he didn't want the lds to be hunted down and imprisioned while the church was small and easy to destroy??

What if when and if the U.S. Makes polygamy legal again. "Seems to be only a matter of time since ssm is now legal". That God commanded the polygamy again be practiced???

How many members would fall away from gods church and commandment?

[sandman45]

Also @FFA

the Jehovah in the endowment is not Jesus...

so Michael/Adam is not the Father of Jehovah.. but he is the Father of Jesus

I don't even...
Then who on earth is the Jehovah in the endowment?

So when Elohim mentions a Savior coming to the world to save them and the camera slowly zooms in on Jehovah as he smiles and shows emotion at the mention of the Savior, that's not indicating that Jehovah is that same Savior(Jesus)?

I'm incredibly confused

Could it possibly be the Savior from Michael's world?? Everything is patterned. Go read Joseph's, King Follet discourse. Also, I wouldn't put too much into the video itself as being a correct visual interpretation of anything.

The new videos are a reflection of what our current leaders believe, so unless you think our current leaders are changing the endowment and the identity of Jehovah, the video proves that Jehovah is Jesus. That's fine if it's your opinion, I don't care either way.

I don't see why the video would have a Savior from a previous world in it, one that has nothing to do with me. Believing that it wasn't Jesus that created the worlds and was the great Jehovah greatly reduces the mission of Jesus

it doesn't reduce the mission of Jesus at all..

like Slim said "could it be the savior from Michael's world?" if so then since Michael is our Father then it would mean a great deal to us.. also Elohim being the Father to Michael is a great important to us.. just as our earthly grandparents and great grand parents are to us now.

Bishop Heber Bennion in 1920 (Supplement to Gospel Problems, p. 8-9): "Elohim may signify the Father or Grandfather, or Great Grandfather - God or the Council of Gods, and Jehovah may be applied to any of them in the capacity or relationship of a son ..."

again .. Jehovah as a Title .. if we think of it as a title then it makes sense and doesnt hurt your brain.

“We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible,” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-346. Italics in original).

"Hence, the doctrine of a plurality of Gods is as prominent in the Bible as any other doctrine. It is all over the face of the Bible . . . Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many . . . but to us there is but one God--that is pertaining to us; and he is in all and through all," (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 474). "In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 5).

The Gods had bodies of flesh and bone.. the Jehovah mentioned could not be Jesus... Jesus had not yet received his body..

[Sarah]

...that he was once a man like us; yea, that God the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible,” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-346. Italics in original).

Sandman, are you interpreting this to mean that Jesus Christ also dwelt on another earth besides this one? I think it can be interpreted to mean that our Father dwelt on an earth, just as Jesus dwelt on our earth.

And I think that is a worthwhile question you brought up. Can you only achieve "God" status if you are a resurrected person, or can a spirit achieve that before they come to earth. I don't know?

[Sarah]

Op

What if God only commanded to end polygamy because the U.S. Made it illegal and he didn't want the lds to be hunted down and imprisioned while the church was small and easy to destroy??

What if when and if the U.S. Makes polygamy legal again. "Seems to be only a matter of time since ssm is now legal". That God commanded the polygamy again be practiced???

How many members would fall away from gods church and commandment?

I'm sure there were other reasons besides the fact that it was illegal that the Lord rescinded the commandment of plural marriage. This was just the right time, when it became time for Utah to be a state. I'm sure he saw this coming. I think the Lord knew that at some point the Church would have to mingle with the Gentiles, and it wasn't going to work. That is why in the beginning days of the Church the saints all gathered together in places out west, and ultimately to the Rockies where they could attempt to practice some of these higher laws. The higher laws cannot work unless you have a covenant body of people all living together, and outsiders are for the most part separate. City of Enoch is an example. We just don't live in that kind of day right now, and for a purpose. We need to be the salt of the earth, the leaven and the light to the world in every place we live. We need to spread the gospel to the whole earth, and build up Zion where were live. The higher laws will not be practiced until we are gathered into cities of Zion and a great separation occurs.

So, that was the long answer to the question you posed, of No, the Lord will not institute polygamy again if it soon becomes legal. The other reason being is that only those authorized by the Lord and his servants can practice this in righteousness. Everyone else trying to live it would be under condemnation. We could not be equated with those practicing it outside of the Church.

[Ezra]

I was thinking on the lines of. "If God commanded" the members to once again practice polygamy. How many would fall away?

I imagine a lot.

[Fiannan]

The other reason being is that only those authorized by the Lord and his servants can practice this in righteousness.

So all Muslims who practice polygamy and Jews that support these views: http://www.come-and-hear.com/editor/polygamy-orthodox/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; are living in sin?

[Fiannan]

I was thinking on the lines of. "If God commanded" the members to once again practice polygamy. How many would fall away?

I imagine a lot.

So?

More than enough could replace them and eventually far exceed their reproductive capabilities, which would cause the Church to expand big time.

[Sarah]

The other reason being is that only those authorized by the Lord and his servants can practice this in righteousness.

So all Muslims who practice polygamy and Jews that support these views: http://www.come-and-hear.com/editor/polygamy-orthodox/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; are living in sin?

I do believe that anyone living polygamy today is either living in sin or transgression. Obviously many don't have God's laws and so they are not responsible for repenting for something like this. But the article just published states as such. Paraphrasing, individuals who practice it are not allowed to join the Church or remain members... The Church affirms that monogamy is God's standard for marriage except when He authorizes or commands otherwise through His prophet.

[Sarah]

I was thinking on the lines of. "If God commanded" the members to once again practice polygamy. How many would fall away?

I imagine a lot.

Yes I'm sure you're right.

[rewcox]

I was thinking on the lines of. "If God commanded" the members to once again practice polygamy. How many would fall away?

I imagine a lot.

Yes I'm sure you're right.

Are you kidding! BofM would be first in line!!!

[Dash jones]

Op

What if God only commanded to end polygamy because the U.S. Made it illegal and he didn't want the lds to be hunted down and imprisioned while the church was small and easy to destroy??

What if when and if the U.S. Makes polygamy legal again. "Seems to be only a matter of time since ssm is now legal". That God commanded the polygamy again be practiced???

How many members would fall away from gods church and commandment?

Currently, I don't see the LDS members humble enough to accept such a commandment if it were given. I think it would literally tear the LDS membership in two (or worse) and possibly destroy the LDS church because a majority of it's membership would not accept it.

That's not saying it is right or wrong, simply that I think if the LDS church tried to revive polygamy as a commandment for the LDS church...it would destroy the LDS church possibly, simply because it's membership are too prideful and too caught up in their own traditions and customs to accept such a radical change inside their world/church view.

[freedomforall]

Can God create a rock so big he cannot lift it?

Come on people, as Hillary would say, "What difference does it make?"

People who ask the question do not understand what Omnipotent is.

It is akin to asking, could the Lord do something so that he is no longer the Lord. Could he make himself so that he is not Omnipotent or the Lord anymore.

In LDS beliefs, perhaps it is in theory possible, but the Lord would never do that. Hence, yes He COULD DO THAT. He could make a rock and cease to be Lord and wouldn't be able to lift it possibly...as he ceases to be omnipotent...but he WOULD NOT DO THAT. To postulate on that would be ridiculous.

Let's say that God can make a rock so huge he cannot lift it, but not to worry, he can send millions of angels to do it. After all, he is God, right? Likewise, Christ could have called upon legions of angels to come down and not only remove him from the cross but completely destroy all the surrounding land as well. I think we figure the City of Enoch was where the Gulf of Mexico now is, right? I'd say it was like a mighty big rock.

In reality, Christ tells us if we have enough faith there is nothing impossible

Matt 17:20
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Ether 12:30
30 For the brother of Jared said unto the mountain Zerin, Remove—and it was removed. And if he had not had faith it would not have moved; wherefore thou workest after men have faith.

Moses 7:13
13 And so great was the faith of Enoch that he led the people of God, and their enemies came to battle against them; and he spake the word of the Lord, and the earth trembled, and the mountains fled, even according to his command; and the rivers of water were turned out of their course; and the roar of the lions was heard out of the wilderness; and all nations feared greatly, so powerful was the word of Enoch, and so great was the power of the language which God had given him.

Joshua 10:12-14
12 ¶Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.
13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
14 And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the Lord hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the Lord fought for Israel.

I assume the question was meant in jest, but it sure was a good question. Sure seems more inspiring than polygamy discussions.

I mean if we could learn how to acquire faith and exercise it, we would really have something to talk about.

[Rachael]

All you wannabe polygamists can join Jeffs, Harmstons, Allreds, Kingstons, etc., groups. They at least stayed true to the values of BYs Mormonism... Living the "higher law" or just plain old whoredoms and abominations.

[slimjamm]

Did they??

[Rachael]

I was thinking on the lines of. "If God commanded" the members to once again practice polygamy. How many would fall away?

I imagine a lot.

So?

More than enough could replace them and eventually far exceed their reproductive capabilities, which would cause the Church to expand big time.

No, because it only expands the reproductive capacity of men [edit: certain men, curtails the rest of the un-alpha males ability to procreate]. Other polygamy threads have provided evidence that monogamous relationships tend to produce more children

[Rachael]

If God ended polygamy?
Members(leaders) didn't stop?

What's the rest of the "ify" question(s)

Polygamy happened.

Polygamy in the church ended once all involved died, because it was not expected for men to divorce their wives and their families to be split apart.

There are too many church leaders having died and only having one wife to even think for one moment it is a requirement since the manifesto. No new polygamous relationships were sanctioned by church leaders, and when discovered the practitioners were excommunicated.

What's so "ify" about this?

Because it is iffy.
There is evidence for cases of plural marriages sanctioned by the leaders post manifesto

[Fiannan]

I was thinking on the lines of. "If God commanded" the members to once again practice polygamy. How many would fall away?

I imagine a lot.

So?

More than enough could replace them and eventually far exceed their reproductive capabilities, which would cause the Church to expand big time.

No, because it only expands the reproductive capacity of men. Other polygamy threads have provided evidence that monogamous relationships produce more children

Anti polygamy argument #1: Polygamy decreases overall female reproduction.

Fact: This is all based on a study done on Utah polygamists in the 1800s. Two variables left out of practically all discussions:

a) Many men who were polygamists were arrested and spent a great deal of time in jail. As conjugal visits were not part of 19th Century jail norms then no reproduction for the wives.

b) Many of the men who were polygamists were often sent on missions that could last a year or more. Hard to impregnate a wife using the telegraph.

Anti polygamy argument #2: Monogamous relationships are more conducive to female reproduction.

Fact: Evolutionary psychology suggests that humans are designed as group creatures, not pairs. Size differential would also suggest the ideal family unit is one male and two or three females. Males are more fertile when exposed to more than one partner and males are also designed to be able to reproduce decades after a female cohort would no longer be able to do so. Economic advantages to polygamy aside one must consider that stress reduces female fertility. A home in which there are multiple mothers would see less stress and thus more fertility, plus built-in daycare with people who actually would care for the children. Also, women could work in shifts to have career and larger than one or two kids.

[Rachael]

But Joseph, how can Michael, give dominion and glory to Jesus Christ, unless he had it first? It's impossible to give something you don't first have possession of.

The Father called all spirits before Him at the creation of man, and organized them. He (Adam) is the head, and was told to multiply. The keys were first given to him, and by him to others. He will have to give an account of his stewardship, and they to him. TPJS

.

Thanks for clearing that up, Joseph.

Clear as mud since someone had to give those keys to Adam. Maybe Jesus let Adam borrow them and Adam gives them back later.