If God ended polygamy in 1890, but members(leaders) didn't stop..

[sandman45]

How you can discredit scripture is beyond me. And do you also say this info with scriptural references is a pack of lies?

I could say the same thing to you...

slimjamm quoted this stuff too in his wall of text.. lets dissect it a little more

People say Brigham "let the cat out of the bag" in saying Adam was God.. but I think Joseph let the "cat out of the bag" when he said

The Priesthood is an everlasting principle, and existed with God from eternity, and will to eternity, without beginning of days or end of years [see Joseph Smith Translation, Hebrews 7:3].

Keys of the priesthood.. who holds these keys? Adam

The keys have to be brought from heaven whenever the Gospel is sent. When they are revealed from heaven, it is by Adam’s authority.

Woa.. did Joseph just say that WHENEVER the Gospel is sent it is by Adam's Authority not Christ's?

“Daniel in his seventh chapter speaks of the Ancient of Days; he means the oldest man, our Father Adam, Michael;

Ancient of days to people back then in Joseph's time was basically saying Adam is God the Father...

he will call his children together and hold a council with them to prepare them for the coming of the Son of Man [see Daniel 7:9–14].

Adam is the First MAN.... Son of MAN is Christ..... Christ Son of Adam the first man?

He (Adam) is the father of the human family, and presides over the spirits of all men, and all that have had the keys must stand before him in this grand council.

Adam is Father of the HUMAN family... He PRESIDES over the spirits of ALL men that includes Christ for he is one of those spirits and is part of the human family. ALL that has keys (that includes Christ) stands before Adam who had the KEYS FIRST...since Adam presides.

… The Son of Man stands before him, and there is given him glory and dominion.

Woa.. the Son of Man stands before him (ADAM) like it mentions in paragraph before, and Son of man receives GLORY and DOMINION from ADAM.

Adam delivers up his stewardship to Christ, that which was delivered to him as holding the keys of the universe, but retains his standing as head of the human family.

Adam gives his stewardship (definition: Stewardship is an ethic that embodies the responsible planning and management of resources. The concepts of stewardship can be applied to the environment and nature, economics, health, property, information, theology, etc.) to Christ. But of course Adam is still our Father he is still the Head of the human [his] family

… The Father called all spirits before Him at the creation of man, and organized them. He (Adam) is the head, and was told to multiply.


The keys were first given to him, and by him to others. He will have to give an account of his stewardship, and they to him.


Adam got the keys FIRST... not Christ.. Adam is the one who gives keys to others.. the gospel is revealed from heaven by Adam's Authority (like was mentioned above)

“Adam … was the first man, who is spoken of in Daniel as being the ‘Ancient of Days’ [Daniel 7:9],


Again the first Man... being the first and being called the Ancient of Days is significant.. he is VERY important

or in other words, the first and oldest of all,

FIRST and OLDEST of ALL... that includes Christ.. he was before Christ and Older than Christ

the great, grand progenitor

wow.. he is the GREAT, GRANT PROGENITOR... we descend from God both physically and spiritually

of whom it is said in another place he is Michael,

Michael means: Who is Like God..

because he was the first and father of all, not only by progeny, but the first to hold the spiritual blessings,

again he is the FIRST and FATHER OF ALL... not only by progeny (he was first physically) and first to hold the spiritual blessings!! he was not Christ

to whom was made known the plan of ordinances for the salvation of his posterity unto the end, and to whom Christ was first revealed, and through whom Christ has been revealed from heaven, and will continue to be revealed from henceforth.


He reveals Christ to all and will continue to do so henceforth.. does that mean he is the one who said "this is my beloved son hear him?" Joseph just said Adam is the one who reveals christ..

Adam holds the keys of the dispensation of the fullness of times; i.e., the dispensation of all the times have been and will be revealed through him from the beginning to Christ, and from Christ to the end of all the dispensations that are to be revealed. …

he holds the KEYs of the dispensation of the FULLNESS of times... ALL TIMES have been and WILL BE revealed through ADAM to CHRIST and from CHRIST to the END.. so Adam then Christ.. then Joseph? reminds me of the following

“Everlasting covenant was made between three personages before the organization of this earth and relates to their dispensation of things to men on the earth. These personages … are called God the first, the Creator; God the second, the Redeemer; and God the third, the Witness or Testator.”15 - Joseph Smith

notice how these 3 Gods the creator, redeemer, and witness/testator has a dispensation on the earth????

Brigham was correct in saying "It was Joseph’s doctrine that Adam was God [etc.] when in Luke Johnson’s. -Journal Discourse” see attachment

In order to properly interpret Daniel we must compare it to a similar account given in Revelation chapter five. Here we find the lamb as it had been slain, Jesus Christ, approaching the one who sits on the throne and takes the seals of judgment. Since John 5:22 states that it is the Father who has committed all judgment unto the Son, a proper understanding of this passage would conclude that it is God the Father, not Adam, who sits on the throne. If Mormons choose to insist that it is Adam sitting on the throne, they are, in fact, equating Adam to God. According to Joseph Smith, Brigham was right!

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-jo ... 8?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[slimjamm]

But Joseph, how can Michael, give dominion and glory to Jesus Christ, unless he had it first? It's impossible to give something you don't first have possession of.

The Father called all spirits before Him at the creation of man, and organized them. He (Adam) is the head, and was told to multiply. The keys were first given to him, and by him to others. He will have to give an account of his stewardship, and they to him. TPJS

.

Thanks for clearing that up, Joseph.

[freedomforall]

How you can discredit scripture is beyond me. And do you also say this info with scriptural references is a pack of lies?

I could say the same thing to you...

slimjamm quoted this stuff too in his wall of text.. lets dissect it a little more

People say Brigham "let the cat out of the bag" in saying Adam was God.. but I think Joseph let the "cat out of the bag" when he said

The Priesthood is an everlasting principle, and existed with God from eternity, and will to eternity, without beginning of days or end of years [see Joseph Smith Translation, Hebrews 7:3].

Keys of the priesthood.. who holds these keys? Adam

The keys have to be brought from heaven whenever the Gospel is sent. When they are revealed from heaven, it is by Adam’s authority.

Woa.. did Joseph just say that WHENEVER the Gospel is sent it is by Adam's Authority not Christ's?

“Daniel in his seventh chapter speaks of the Ancient of Days; he means the oldest man, our Father Adam, Michael;

Ancient of days to people back then in Joseph's time was basically saying Adam is God the Father...

he will call his children together and hold a council with them to prepare them for the coming of the Son of Man [see Daniel 7:9–14].

Adam is the First MAN.... Son of MAN is Christ..... Christ Son of Adam the first man?

He (Adam) is the father of the human family, and presides over the spirits of all men, and all that have had the keys must stand before him in this grand council.

Adam is Father of the HUMAN family... He PRESIDES over the spirits of ALL men that includes Christ for he is one of those spirits and is part of the human family. ALL that has keys (that includes Christ) stands before Adam who had the KEYS FIRST...since Adam presides.

… The Son of Man stands before him, and there is given him glory and dominion.

Woa.. the Son of Man stands before him (ADAM) like it mentions in paragraph before, and Son of man receives GLORY and DOMINION from ADAM.

Adam delivers up his stewardship to Christ, that which was delivered to him as holding the keys of the universe, but retains his standing as head of the human family.

Adam gives his stewardship (definition: Stewardship is an ethic that embodies the responsible planning and management of resources. The concepts of stewardship can be applied to the environment and nature, economics, health, property, information, theology, etc.) to Christ. But of course Adam is still our Father he is still the Head of the human [his] family

… The Father called all spirits before Him at the creation of man, and organized them. He (Adam) is the head, and was told to multiply.


The keys were first given to him, and by him to others. He will have to give an account of his stewardship, and they to him.


Adam got the keys FIRST... not Christ.. Adam is the one who gives keys to others.. the gospel is revealed from heaven by Adam's Authority (like was mentioned above)

“Adam … was the first man, who is spoken of in Daniel as being the ‘Ancient of Days’ [Daniel 7:9],


Again the first Man... being the first and being called the Ancient of Days is significant.. he is VERY important

or in other words, the first and oldest of all,

FIRST and OLDEST of ALL... that includes Christ.. he was before Christ and Older than Christ

the great, grand progenitor

wow.. he is the GREAT, GRANT PROGENITOR... we descend from God both physically and spiritually

of whom it is said in another place he is Michael,

Michael means: Who is Like God..

because he was the first and father of all, not only by progeny, but the first to hold the spiritual blessings,

again he is the FIRST and FATHER OF ALL... not only by progeny (he was first physically) and first to hold the spiritual blessings!! he was not Christ

to whom was made known the plan of ordinances for the salvation of his posterity unto the end, and to whom Christ was first revealed, and through whom Christ has been revealed from heaven, and will continue to be revealed from henceforth.


He reveals Christ to all and will continue to do so henceforth.. does that mean he is the one who said "this is my beloved son hear him?" Joseph just said Adam is the one who reveals christ..

Adam holds the keys of the dispensation of the fullness of times; i.e., the dispensation of all the times have been and will be revealed through him from the beginning to Christ, and from Christ to the end of all the dispensations that are to be revealed. …

he holds the KEYs of the dispensation of the FULLNESS of times... ALL TIMES have been and WILL BE revealed through ADAM to CHRIST and from CHRIST to the END.. so Adam then Christ.. then Joseph? reminds me of the following

“Everlasting covenant was made between three personages before the organization of this earth and relates to their dispensation of things to men on the earth. These personages … are called God the first, the Creator; God the second, the Redeemer; and God the third, the Witness or Testator.”15 - Joseph Smith

notice how these 3 Gods the creator, redeemer, and witness/testator has a dispensation on the earth????

Brigham was correct in saying "It was Joseph’s doctrine that Adam was God [etc.] when in Luke Johnson’s. -Journal Discourse” see attachment

In order to properly interpret Daniel we must compare it to a similar account given in Revelation chapter five. Here we find the lamb as it had been slain, Jesus Christ, approaching the one who sits on the throne and takes the seals of judgment. Since John 5:22 states that it is the Father who has committed all judgment unto the Son, a proper understanding of this passage would conclude that it is God the Father, not Adam, who sits on the throne. If Mormons choose to insist that it is Adam sitting on the throne, they are, in fact, equating Adam to God. According to Joseph Smith, Brigham was right!

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-jo ... 8?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's one for ya.

If Adam is Jehovah's Father, then why did he come to earth and sin? Eve also? Jehovah on the other hand lived a sin-free life and atoned for sin. Furthermore, He states that he does the will of his Father, a sinner. So the Father is a repentant sinner, and the Son is sin-free as expected of him for the plan of salvation to work. So Christ bore the sins committed by his own Father. Also, had Christ sinned just once, all mankind, including Jesus would be going to hell, because there would be no one to atone for the sins of all mankind, including Adam, and the plan of salvation would have been frustrated and have become null and void. Ya, this makes a lot of sense, doesn't it?

Oh well, there are at least two people convinced of this ridiculous Adam-God doctrine. Scripture does not teach that Christ bore the sins of his own Father, being Adam, a mortal, having told Christ to live sin free. What an example that is, right? So Adam cannot be the Father of Jehovah. It is time to think outside the box, isn't it?

[Robin Hood]

Freedomforall,
You put it very well.
I think those who believe Adam is the father of Jehovah are the ones thinking outside the box.
Unfortunately however, too far outside.

[slimjamm]

FFA, Adam and Eve sinned? And I'm the one with the false Doctrine? :-\

[slimjamm]

FFA, Moroni 8:8 says, "little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse
of Adam is taken from them in me, and it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done
away in me".

What was the state of Adam in the Garden? "..and having forgotten all, will have become a little child." Sound familiar?

When Adam and Eve received the first commandment, they were in a transitional state, no longer in the spirit world but with physical bodies not yet subject to death and not yet capable of procreation. They could not fulfill the Father’s first commandment without transgressing the barrier between the bliss of the Garden of Eden and the terrible trials and wonderful opportunities of mortal life.

For reasons that have not been revealed, this transition, or “fall,” could not happen without a transgression—an exercise of moral agency amounting to a willful breaking of a law (see Moses 6:59). This would be a planned offense, a formality to serve an eternal purpose. The Prophet Lehi explained that “if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen” (2 Ne. 2:22), but would have remained in the same state in which he was created.

“And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence (like a child that cannot sin Moroni 8:8), having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin” (2 Ne. 2:23).

But the Fall was planned, Lehi concludes, because “all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things” (2 Ne. 2:24).

It was Eve who first transgressed the limits of Eden in order to initiate the conditions of mortality. Her act, whatever its nature, was formally a transgression but eternally a glorious necessity to open the doorway toward eternal life. Adam showed his wisdom by doing the same. And thus Eve and “Adam fell that men might be” (2 Ne. 2:25).

Some Christians condemn Eve for her act, concluding that she and her daughters are somehow flawed by it. Not the Latter-day Saints! Informed by revelation, we celebrate Eve’s act and honor her wisdom and courage in the great episode called the Fall (see Bruce R. McConkie, “Eve and the Fall,” Woman, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1979, pp. 67–68). Joseph Smith taught that it was not a “sin,” because God had decreed it (see The Words of Joseph Smith, ed. Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook, Provo, Utah: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, 1980, p. 63). Brigham Young declared, “We should never blame Mother Eve, not the least” (in Journal of Discourses, 13:145). Elder Joseph Fielding Smith said: “I never speak of the part Eve took in this fall as a sin, nor do I accuse Adam of a sin. … This was a transgression of the law, but not a sin … for it was something that Adam and Eve had to do!” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954–56, 1:114–15).

This suggested contrast between a sin and a transgression reminds us of the careful wording in the second article of faith: “We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression” (emphasis added). It also echoes a familiar distinction in the law. Some acts, like murder, are crimes because they are inherently wrong. Other acts, like operating without a license, are crimes only because they are legally prohibited. Under these distinctions, the act that produced the Fall was not a sin—inherently wrong—but a transgression—wrong because it was formally prohibited. These words are not always used to denote something different, but this distinction seems meaningful in the circumstances of the Fall.

Modern revelation shows that our first parents understood the necessity of the Fall. Adam declared, “Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God” (Moses 5:10).

Note the different perspective and the special wisdom of Eve, who focused on the purpose and effect of the great plan of happiness: “Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient” (Moses 5:11). In his vision of the redemption of the dead, President Joseph F. Smith saw “the great and mighty ones” assembled to meet the Son of God, and among them was “our glorious Mother Eve” (D&C 138:38–39). Dallin H. Oaks Nov. 1993

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1993/11/the- ... s?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Every other fruit in the Garden Adam and Eve could eat "freely", or with no consequence. But the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they were told they could not eat "freely", meaning if they did there would be a consequence. What was that consequence? Mortality and everything that comes with it.

[freedomforall]

FFA, Adam and Eve sinned? And I'm the one with the false Doctrine? ABSOLUTELY! :-\

If you for one moment think Adam and Eve did not sin one time within a period of over nine hundred years, and we sin almost every day in less than 100 years, all any of us can do is shake our head over this assumption.

Adam and Eve sinned

Romans 5:12
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Come on, where does it say "except Adam and Eve?" They're the ones that sinned and brought upon us all, the fall of mankind.

Gen. 3:6
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Adam became an enemy to God, became a natural man, thus was kicked out of the garden and became spiritually dead. And according to you...Christ had to save his own Father?

Mosiah 3:19
19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

[freedomforall]

FFA, Moroni 8:8 says, "little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse
of Adam is taken from them in me, and it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done
away in me".

What was the state of Adam in the Garden? "..and having forgotten all, will have become a little child." Sound familiar?

When Adam and Eve received the first commandment, they were in a transitional state, no longer in the spirit world but with physical bodies not yet subject to death and not yet capable of procreation. They could not fulfill the Father’s first commandment without transgressing the barrier between the bliss of the Garden of Eden and the terrible trials and wonderful opportunities of mortal life.

For reasons that have not been revealed, this transition, or “fall,” could not happen without a transgression—an exercise of moral agency amounting to a willful breaking of a law (see Moses 6:59). This would be a planned offense, a formality to serve an eternal purpose. The Prophet Lehi explained that “if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen” (2 Ne. 2:22), but would have remained in the same state in which he was created.

“And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence (like a child that cannot sin Moroni 8:8), having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin” (2 Ne. 2:23).

But the Fall was planned, Lehi concludes, because “all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things” (2 Ne. 2:24).

It was Eve who first transgressed the limits of Eden in order to initiate the conditions of mortality. Her act, whatever its nature, was formally a transgression but eternally a glorious necessity to open the doorway toward eternal life. Adam showed his wisdom by doing the same. And thus Eve and “Adam fell that men might be” (2 Ne. 2:25).

Some Christians condemn Eve for her act, concluding that she and her daughters are somehow flawed by it. Not the Latter-day Saints! Informed by revelation, we celebrate Eve’s act and honor her wisdom and courage in the great episode called the Fall (see Bruce R. McConkie, “Eve and the Fall,” Woman, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1979, pp. 67–68). Joseph Smith taught that it was not a “sin,” because God had decreed it (see The Words of Joseph Smith, ed. Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook, Provo, Utah: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, 1980, p. 63). Brigham Young declared, “We should never blame Mother Eve, not the least” (in Journal of Discourses, 13:145). Elder Joseph Fielding Smith said: “I never speak of the part Eve took in this fall as a sin, nor do I accuse Adam of a sin. … This was a transgression of the law, but not a sin … for it was something that Adam and Eve had to do!” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954–56, 1:114–15).

This suggested contrast between a sin and a transgression reminds us of the careful wording in the second article of faith: “We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression” (emphasis added). It also echoes a familiar distinction in the law. Some acts, like murder, are crimes because they are inherently wrong. Other acts, like operating without a license, are crimes only because they are legally prohibited. Under these distinctions, the act that produced the Fall was not a sin—inherently wrong—but a transgression—wrong because it was formally prohibited. These words are not always used to denote something different, but this distinction seems meaningful in the circumstances of the Fall.

Modern revelation shows that our first parents understood the necessity of the Fall. Adam declared, “Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God” (Moses 5:10).

Note the different perspective and the special wisdom of Eve, who focused on the purpose and effect of the great plan of happiness: “Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient” (Moses 5:11). In his vision of the redemption of the dead, President Joseph F. Smith saw “the great and mighty ones” assembled to meet the Son of God, and among them was “our glorious Mother Eve” (D&C 138:38–39). Dallin H. Oaks Nov. 1993

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1993/11/the- ... s?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Every other fruit in the Garden Adam and Eve could eat "freely", or with no consequence. But the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they were told they could not eat "freely", meaning if they did there would be a consequence. What was that consequence? Mortality and everything that comes with it.

Romans 5:12 says it was sin. And being as a child is not the same as being a child. Adam and Eve still fell, and hard, hard enough to get kicked out of the garden and become spiritually dead. This, my friend, is also in scripture. I can't change scripture to suit someone elses paradigm.

[slimjamm]

I absolutely don't believe for one second Adam, nor Eve, sinned. The Scriptures and prophets are very clear on this. You've ignored what the Lord's anointed said on the very topic, and have nothing to refute their words. In fact the Scriptures tell us that Adam was perfect.

Doctrine and Covenants 107:43

Because he (Seth) was a perfect man, and his likeness was the express likeness of his father, insomuch that he seemed to be like unto his father in all things, and could be distinguished from him only by his age.

[Thomas]

I absolutely don't believe for one second Adam, nor Eve, sinned. The Scriptures and prophets are very clear on this. You've ignored what the Lord's anointed said on the very topic, and have nothing to refute their words. In fact the Scriptures tell us that Adam was perfect.

Doctrine and Covenants 107:43

Because he (Seth) was a perfect man, and his likeness was the express likeness of his father, insomuch that he seemed to be like unto his father in all things, and could be distinguished from him only by his age.

So who committed the original sin? Ya know, the apple, the fall and all that.

[Dash jones]

I absolutely don't believe for one second Adam, nor Eve, sinned. The Scriptures and prophets are very clear on this. You've ignored what the Lord's anointed said on the very topic, and have nothing to refute their words. In fact the Scriptures tell us that Adam was perfect.

Doctrine and Covenants 107:43

Because he (Seth) was a perfect man, and his likeness was the express likeness of his father, insomuch that he seemed to be like unto his father in all things, and could be distinguished from him only by his age.

You have misrepresented everything you've stated thus far, so I'm not so certain how far this will go over (probably badly, which is once I got clarification that I wasn't off on what the LDS Mormon theology was and was actually on the right line of thinking, I left this topic overall. There is nothing to accomplish academically by discussing it with you, and nothing that will sway either of us soooo...). On this too.

Adam did NOT sin in the garden as per LDS doctrine, but he DID transgress.

(Any Catholic tradition has it that he sinned, but this differs from LDS doctrine).

Sin is acting against the commands of the Lord. Adam acted against the commands of the Lord which is why Catholicism and most of Christianity sees that he sinned. [Clarification: This is DIFFERENT overall than the LDS view]

You have pointed out that those without the law, or those who cannot yet comprehend it (children, they may be told the law but cannot truly comprehend it enough to be party to it until they are older in LDS teachings), cannot sin. However, they can STILL act contrary to the wishes of their parents or the Lord.

The difference between the two is that one is automatically atoned for by the Lord's atonement, while the other must be repented of.

Hence why...

We believe men will be punished for their own sins and not Adam's transgression.

However, even in LDS doctrine, it isn't entirely non-legit to say Adam sinned as the result was the same prior to the Atonement being accomplished, and it can be quoted as such in the Bible. However, I think the terminology normally submitted towards that type of specific sin, as it is not a sin that we typically see as sin, is noted as a transgression rather than straight up sin.

[slimjamm]

In the Garden of Eden, God commanded Adam and Eve to “multiply and replenish the earth ” (Moses 2:28). However, this was something Adam and Eve simply could not do unless they first partook of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil


The tricky part of this situation was that partaking of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was forbidden by God (see Moses 3:17).


Why then, did God give Adam and Eve a commandment that they could not keep, unless they first broke another one of God’s very own commandments? To quote Joseph Fielding McConkie, “They could not keep either commandment without transgressing the other.”[1] In this complicated situation, was there anything Adam and Eve could have done that would have allowed them to be obedient to all that God commanded them in the Garden of Eden? How then, can we reconcile this problem with the knowledge we have that God cannot contradict himself? In other words, according to LDS scholar Alonzo Gaskill,


It is not in God’s nature to give contradictory commands. Nor is it in accordance with His plan to give His children two or more commandments that require that at least one be broken in order that the others might be kept.[2]


Why then, did God apparently do this very thing in the Garden of Eden? To further complicate things, is it God’s nature to then punish us for breaking one commandment, when we are only doing it to keep another?[3] Was this fair to Adam?


To find answers to these difficult questions, we must take a closer look at the second of these two commandments, the commandment to not partake of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. In the book of Moses, we read,


And I, the Lord God, commanded the man, saying: Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat, But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die (Moses 3:16-17).


At first glance, it appears that God is commanding Adam and Eve not to partake of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. But is this really the case? A more in depth look at what God is forbidding here may help to answer our difficult question.


Thou Mayest Choose for Thyself


The first thing we should point out is that this commandment is very different from any other commandment the Lord has ever given in any dispensation, for this is the only time the Lord has given a commandment followed by the phrase, “nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee.”[4] In other words, “the Lord did not say, ‘Thou shalt not commit adultery’ and then say, ‘Nevertheless thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee.’”[5]


Why then, in this situation, did the Lord give a commandment to Adam and Eve and then immediately suggest that disobedience was an option?[6] It is clear that we have to treat this command from God a little differently.


Thou Mayest Freely Eat


Let us take another look at Moses 3:16-17, and see if we can find out what it is exactly that God is forbidding.


And I, the Lord God, commanded the man, saying: Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat,


The key word in this verse is “freely.” The Lord is here telling Adam that he can eat of every tree in the garden “freely,” or in other words, without consequences. This is important to remember as we continue with the rest of the statement:


But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it [freely],


In effect, the Lord is saying to Adam that he can partake of any tree in the Garden of Eden “freely” (or without consequences), except for the tree of knowledge of good and evil. That is the only tree that cannot be partaken of “freely.” In other words, that tree is the only tree which will bring consequences to those who partake. The Lord continues,


nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it,


Remember the Lord does not give commandments and then suggest that disobedience is an option. What then, is the Lord forbidding? He is not forbidding Adam to partake of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Rather, He is forbidding Adam to partake of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil freely. There is a big difference. The Lord is simply forbidding that Adam partake of this tree consequence free. What would the consequence be if Adam were to partake? The Lord continues,


for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die (Moses 3:16-17).


It is interesting to point out that while in the Garden of Eden one day was equal to 1000 years.[7] Adam lived to be 930 years old, nearly one day in Gods time, thus the phrase, “in the day thou eatest thereof, thou should surely die” can be taken literally.


Contradiction?


With this new information, we can again ask ourselves, “Why did God give Adam and Eve a commandment that they could not keep, unless they first broke another one of God’s commandments?” The answer: He didn’t. A careful reading shows that God was not forbidding Adam and Eve to partake of the fruit; he was forbidding that they partake of the fruit consequence free.



On one occasion, President Joseph Fielding Smith stated in his own words what the Lord was telling Adam and Eve in Moses 3:16-17. He writes,



The Lord said to Adam, here is the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If you want to stay here then you cannot eat of that fruit. If you want to stay here then I forbid you to eat it. But you may act for yourself and you may eat of it if you want to. And if you eat it you will die.[8]



This explanation tells us that Adam and Eve were not given contradictory commandments in the Garden of Eden. It tells us that Adam and Eve were able to keep all of Gods commandments, and they did not have to break one of Gods commandments in order to keep another.



For Thy Sake

It should also be noted that God did not punish Adam and Eve for partaking of the forbidden fruit. When the Lord hands down the consequences to Adam and Eve, He makes the following statement: “Cursed shall be the ground for thy sake” (Moses 4:23). Note that it was the earth, not Adam, who was cursed. Also note that the earth was cursed not to punish Adam, but for Adam’s “sake.” This teaches us that the Fall was a blessing for not only Adam and Eve, but for the rest of us, for without the fall, there would be no atonement, and without the atonement, we would not be able to become like our Father in Heaven.

[1] McConkie, Answers: Straight Forward Answers to Tough Gospel Questions, p. 185.
[2] Gaskill, The Truth About Eden, p. 140.
[3] Gaskill, The Savior and the Serpent, p. 14.
[4] Moses 3:17. This insight came from the following references: Gaskill, The Savior and the Serpent, p. 140; Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:114; Campbell, Eve and the Choice Made in Eden. p. 37.
[5] Parker, The Fall of Man: One of the Three Pillars of Eternity, in The Fullness of the Gospel: Foundational Teachings from the Book of Mormon, p. 87, as quoted in, Gaskill, The Savior and the Serpent, p. 140.
[6] Gaskill, The Savior and the Serpent, p. 140.
[7] Abraham 3:4. Although this scripture states that this day of reckoning is unto the Lords time according to the revolutions of Kolob, it will be remembered that the earth was created near Kolob, and when Adam fell, the Earth fell from its then present location in space, to its current location in our Solar System (see Journal of Discourses, 17:143).
[8] Smith, “Fall-Atonement-Resurrection-Sacrament,” Charge to Religious Educators, p. 124.

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[Syn]

I did not read all the comments but polygamy is still being practiced in temple ceremonies and has never left the earth. The fulness of the gospel is still on the earth, just not practiced the same way they did back then.

[freedomforall]

I absolutely don't believe for one second Adam, nor Eve, sinned. The Scriptures and prophets are very clear on this. You've ignored what the Lord's anointed said on the very topic, and have nothing to refute their words. In fact the Scriptures tell us that Adam was perfect.

Doctrine and Covenants 107:43

Because he (Seth) was a perfect man, and his likeness was the express likeness of his father, insomuch that he seemed to be like unto his father in all things, and could be distinguished from him only by his age.

So who committed the original sin? Ya know, the apple, the fall and all that.

Godzilla and Mothra? And what does Seth have to do with anything to do with Adam and Eve? How did he get thrown into the mix?

[freedomforall]

I absolutely don't believe for one second Adam, nor Eve, sinned. The Scriptures and prophets are very clear on this. You've ignored what the Lord's anointed said on the very topic, and have nothing to refute their words. In fact the Scriptures tell us that Adam was perfect.

Doctrine and Covenants 107:43

Because he (Seth) was a perfect man, and his likeness was the express likeness of his father, insomuch that he seemed to be like unto his father in all things, and could be distinguished from him only by his age.

Romans 5:12 says they sinned!

transgression = evildoing, actus reus
sin = evildoing, transgression, an act that is regarded by theologians as a transgression of God's will

They sinned, they sinned, they sinned...sin and transgression is synonymous. They broke a commandment and paid a price; they got sent out of the garden and became spiritually dead, and you call that perfection?

Doctrine and Covenants 29:41
41 Wherefore, I, the Lord God, caused that he should be cast out from the Garden of Eden, from my presence, because of his transgression, wherein he became spiritually dead, which is the first death, even that same death which is the last death, which is spiritual, which shall be pronounced upon the wicked when I shall say: Depart, ye cursed.

Death, Spiritual
See also, Fall of Adam and Eve

Separation from God and his influences; to die as to things pertaining to righteousness. Lucifer and a third part of the hosts of heaven suffered a spiritual death when they were cast out of heaven (D&C 29:36–37).

Spiritual death was introduced into the world by the fall of Adam (Moses 6:48). Mortals with evil thoughts, words, and works are spiritually dead while still alive on earth (1 Tim. 5:6). Through the atonement of Jesus Christ and by obedience to the principles and ordinances of the gospel, men and women can become clean from sin and overcome spiritual death.

Spiritual death also occurs following the death of the mortal body. Both resurrected beings and the devil and his angels will be judged. Those who have willfully rebelled against the light and truth of the gospel will suffer spiritual death. This death is often called the second death (Alma 12:16; Hel. 14:16–19; D&C 76:36–38).

And you say Adam is the father of Jehovah? And Jesus had to atone for his own Father? Christ was expected to live a sin free life and his Father was not, and do the will of the Father who was imperfect? WOW, I mean WOW!

[freedomforall]

I did not read all the comments but polygamy is still being practiced in temple ceremonies and has never left the earth. The fulness of the gospel is still on the earth, just not practiced the same way they did back then.

Today if a man and woman get divorced, the sealing only stays in effect if the wife never remarries. And if she does and is sealed to her second husband, the sealing with the first husband becomes null and void. If she remains single the sealing is left intact. This is what I was told by the First Presidency in 1995 And who knows? maybe she won't want her first husband after death. Maybe she will.

[Dash jones]

Interesting note, in the Pearl of Great Price in the chapter after the one quoted, it says in Moses 4, it refers to three individuals in the same chapter. It was NOT Adam driving himself out, at least I'm pretty certain of this.

And I, the Lord God, said unto mine Only Begotten: Behold, the man is become as one of us to know good and evil; and now lest he put forth his hand and partake also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever,

29 Therefore I, the Lord God, will send him forth from the Garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken;

30 For as I, the Lord God, liveth, even so my words cannot return void, for as they go forth out of my mouth they must be fulfilled.

31 So I drove out the man, and I placed at the east of the Garden of Eden, cherubim and a flaming sword, which turned every way to keep the way of the tree of life

Just something to support FFA a little bit.

On another note, I thought Mormons considered Adam's sin a transgression instead of a sin as is committed by those over the age of 8. It was an act against the Lord and his commands, which led to the same effect as sin (especially prior to the atonement), but isn't it still considered a transgression of the caliber of being atoned for rather than the sin which we must repent of these days?

As per the 2nd article of faith?

Not that you are wrong, as I stated previously, it still can be called a sin (as per quotes in the bible) which implies you are correct, I was just under the impression that it was referred to as a transgression rather than gross sin.

[Dash jones]

I did not read all the comments but polygamy is still being practiced in temple ceremonies and has never left the earth. The fulness of the gospel is still on the earth, just not practiced the same way they did back then.

Today if a man and woman get divorced, the sealing only stays in effect if the wife never remarries. And if she does and is sealed to her second husband, the sealing with the first husband becomes null and void. If she remains single the sealing is left intact. This is what I was told by the First Presidency in 1995 And who knows? maybe she won't want her first husband after death. Maybe she will.

That's my understanding from my studies into Mormon theology as well, though mine was more from reading than talking to the First Presidency (haven't ever had any contact with them or any LDS General Authorities).

[slimjamm]

I absolutely don't believe for one second Adam, nor Eve, sinned. The Scriptures and prophets are very clear on this. You've ignored what the Lord's anointed said on the very topic, and have nothing to refute their words. In fact the Scriptures tell us that Adam was perfect.

Doctrine and Covenants 107:43

Because he (Seth) was a perfect man, and his likeness was the express likeness of his father, insomuch that he seemed to be like unto his father in all things, and could be distinguished from him only by his age.

Romans 5:12 says they sinned!

transgression = evildoing, actus reus
sin = evildoing, transgression, an act that is regarded by theologians as a transgression of God's will

They sinned, they sinned, they sinned...sin and transgression is synonymous. They broke a commandment and paid a price; they got sent out of the garden and became spiritually dead, and you call that perfection?

Doctrine and Covenants 29:41
41 Wherefore, I, the Lord God, caused that he should be cast out from the Garden of Eden, from my presence, because of his transgression, wherein he became spiritually dead, which is the first death, even that same death which is the last death, which is spiritual, which shall be pronounced upon the wicked when I shall say: Depart, ye cursed.

Death, Spiritual
See also, Fall of Adam and Eve

Separation from God and his influences; to die as to things pertaining to righteousness. Lucifer and a third part of the hosts of heaven suffered a spiritual death when they were cast out of heaven (D&C 29:36–37).

Spiritual death was introduced into the world by the fall of Adam (Moses 6:48). Mortals with evil thoughts, words, and works are spiritually dead while still alive on earth (1 Tim. 5:6). Through the atonement of Jesus Christ and by obedience to the principles and ordinances of the gospel, men and women can become clean from sin and overcome spiritual death.

Spiritual death also occurs following the death of the mortal body. Both resurrected beings and the devil and his angels will be judged. Those who have willfully rebelled against the light and truth of the gospel will suffer spiritual death. This death is often called the second death (Alma 12:16; Hel. 14:16–19; D&C 76:36–38).

And you say Adam is the father of Jehovah? And Jesus had to atone for his own Father? Christ was expected to live a sin free life and his Father was not, and do the will of the Father who was imperfect? WOW, I mean WOW!

You do realize according to your quotes above, Jesus was just as spiritually dead as Adam and Eve right? He too left the presence of the Father. Yet, we refer to him as perfect. You act like this is a horrible thing rather than part of the plan.

You must remember the Father also still relies on His own Savior, from the world he lived on as a mortal. Who's atonement is just as infinite for Him, as our Savior's atonement is, and will be for us. That never goes away, hence the infinite part. Also remember the Father has a father, who also has a father, etc. You've got to see the whole pattern.
Wow is right. What a blessing to have the opportunity to know the mysteries of godliness, if we choose to.

[slimjamm]

I absolutely don't believe for one second Adam, nor Eve, sinned. The Scriptures and prophets are very clear on this. You've ignored what the Lord's anointed said on the very topic, and have nothing to refute their words. In fact the Scriptures tell us that Adam was perfect.

Doctrine and Covenants 107:43

Because he (Seth) was a perfect man, and his likeness was the express likeness of his father, insomuch that he seemed to be like unto his father in all things, and could be distinguished from him only by his age.

So who committed the original sin? Ya know, the apple, the fall and all that.

Godzilla and Mothra? And what does Seth have to do with anything to do with Adam and Eve? How did he get thrown into the mix?

FFA,
Seth, was brought into this from a scripture that states he was a perfect man, who seemed to be like his father (Adam) in ALL things. If Seth was like his father in all things, insomuch they were only distinguished by age, and Seth was a perfect man. We see Adam, like Seth, was a perfect man.

And with that, this thread has been derailed long enough. I apologize for my part in that.

[freedomforall]

I did not read all the comments but polygamy is still being practiced in temple ceremonies and has never left the earth. The fulness of the gospel is still on the earth, just not practiced the same way they did back then.

Today if a man and woman get divorced, the sealing only stays in effect if the wife never remarries. And if she does and is sealed to her second husband, the sealing with the first husband becomes null and void. If she remains single the sealing is left intact. This is what I was told by the First Presidency in 1995 And who knows? maybe she won't want her first husband after death. Maybe she will.

That's my understanding from my studies into Mormon theology as well, though mine was more from reading than talking to the First Presidency (haven't ever had any contact with them or any LDS General Authorities).

I will clarify here. I was told this info from my Bishop, of whom, got it from the First Presidency. Oft times we humans don't give all details of events. However, I still got it from the First Presidency.

[freedomforall]

I absolutely don't believe for one second Adam, nor Eve, sinned. The Scriptures and prophets are very clear on this. You've ignored what the Lord's anointed said on the very topic, and have nothing to refute their words. In fact the Scriptures tell us that Adam was perfect.

Doctrine and Covenants 107:43

Because he (Seth) was a perfect man, and his likeness was the express likeness of his father, insomuch that he seemed to be like unto his father in all things, and could be distinguished from him only by his age.

Romans 5:12 says they sinned!

transgression = evildoing, actus reus
sin = evildoing, transgression, an act that is regarded by theologians as a transgression of God's will

They sinned, they sinned, they sinned...sin and transgression is synonymous. They broke a commandment and paid a price; they got sent out of the garden and became spiritually dead, and you call that perfection?

Doctrine and Covenants 29:41
41 Wherefore, I, the Lord God, caused that he should be cast out from the Garden of Eden, from my presence, because of his transgression, wherein he became spiritually dead, which is the first death, even that same death which is the last death, which is spiritual, which shall be pronounced upon the wicked when I shall say: Depart, ye cursed.

Death, Spiritual
See also, Fall of Adam and Eve

Separation from God and his influences; to die as to things pertaining to righteousness. Lucifer and a third part of the hosts of heaven suffered a spiritual death when they were cast out of heaven (D&C 29:36–37).

Spiritual death was introduced into the world by the fall of Adam (Moses 6:48). Mortals with evil thoughts, words, and works are spiritually dead while still alive on earth (1 Tim. 5:6). Through the atonement of Jesus Christ and by obedience to the principles and ordinances of the gospel, men and women can become clean from sin and overcome spiritual death.

Spiritual death also occurs following the death of the mortal body. Both resurrected beings and the devil and his angels will be judged. Those who have willfully rebelled against the light and truth of the gospel will suffer spiritual death. This death is often called the second death (Alma 12:16; Hel. 14:16–19; D&C 76:36–38).

And you say Adam is the father of Jehovah? And Jesus had to atone for his own Father? Christ was expected to live a sin free life and his Father was not, and do the will of the Father who was imperfect? WOW, I mean WOW!

You do realize according to your quotes above, Jesus was just as spiritually dead as Adam and Eve right? He too left the presence of the Father. Yet, we refer to him as perfect. You act like this is a horrible thing rather than part of the plan. Jesus was not spiritually dead, Jehovah, the first born in spirit was inside him. Want proof?

John 14:9
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Acts 7:56
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Matthew 26:24
24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Jesus is Jehovah, the Son of Man.


You must remember the Father also still relies on His own Savior, from the world he lived on as a mortal. Who's atonement is just as infinite for Him, as our Savior's atonement is, and will be for us. That never goes away, hence the infinite part. Also remember the Father has a father, who also has a father, etc. You've got to see the whole pattern.
Wow is right. What a blessing to have the opportunity to know the mysteries of godliness, if we choose to.

Let's get this straight. So if the Father of Jehovah is Michael, of whom came to earth as Adam, and the Savior, Jesus Christ, was atoning for all mankind including Adam for his transgression, then who is the other Savior of Father Michael, the same person we know as Adam? So know Michael had a different Savior, and was exempt from Jesus atoning for him? Scripture doesn't even come close to explaining things this way. If someone truly thinks this stuff through it makes no sense at all.

When a puzzle is to be seen for the picture it actually portrays, all the pieces must contain a portion of that intended picture.
We have a puzzle where all the pieces may fit, but the whole picture is faulty because its pieces reveal a different scene than the needed ones for that picture. It's like looking at a dark-haired horse with sporadic pink, green and purple polka dots.

[Fiannan]

I did not read all the comments but polygamy is still being practiced in temple ceremonies and has never left the earth. The fulness of the gospel is still on the earth, just not practiced the same way they did back then.

Today if a man and woman get divorced, the sealing only stays in effect if the wife never remarries. And if she does and is sealed to her second husband, the sealing with the first husband becomes null and void. If she remains single the sealing is left intact. This is what I was told by the First Presidency in 1995 And who knows? maybe she won't want her first husband after death. Maybe she will.

That's my understanding from my studies into Mormon theology as well, though mine was more from reading than talking to the First Presidency (haven't ever had any contact with them or any LDS General Authorities).

I will clarify here. I was told this info from my Bishop, of whom, got it from the First Presidency. Oft times we humans don't give all details of events. However, I still got it from the First Presidency.

In fact my understanding is that if a woman remarries, and has not had an official cancellation of a sealing, her children with her new husband are sealed to her original husband.

[freedomforall]

If God ended polygamy?
Members(leaders) didn't stop?

What's the rest of the "ify" question(s)

Polygamy happened.

Polygamy in the church ended once all involved died, because it was not expected for men to divorce their wives and their families to be split apart.

There are too many church leaders having died and only having one wife to even think for one moment it is a requirement since the manifesto. No new polygamous relationships were sanctioned by church leaders, and when discovered the practitioners were excommunicated.

What's so "ify" about this?

[freedomforall]

Today if a man and woman get divorced, the sealing only stays in effect if the wife never remarries. And if she does and is sealed to her second husband, the sealing with the first husband becomes null and void. If she remains single the sealing is left intact. This is what I was told by the First Presidency in 1995 And who knows? maybe she won't want her first husband after death. Maybe she will.

That's my understanding from my studies into Mormon theology as well, though mine was more from reading than talking to the First Presidency (haven't ever had any contact with them or any LDS General Authorities).

I will clarify here. I was told this info from my Bishop, of whom, got it from the First Presidency. Oft times we humans don't give all details of events. However, I still got it from the First Presidency.

In fact my understanding is that if a woman remarries, and has not had an official cancellation of a sealing, her children with her new husband are sealed to her original husband.

Some inside info would be nice for this. I can't say one way or another if this is in effect. Who knows, it could be true?