going into more debt to pay tithing

[zionminded]

For me, I think you pay tithing on your increase (not gross and not net). if you're in debt, that's not much of an increase is it.

Your FAST offerings however, are different, you pay that always regardless of how poor you are.

AND, if you're in debt, you may need to put the Lord first, so you can have the blessings of tithing, which go way beyond attending the temple as a requirement. If you're squandering your money, and cannot pay because you have no increase, are you greedy, in financial trouble, or just poor. Food for thought.

[David13]

It breaks my heart to think of how many people are financially suffering needlessly.
It's even more concerning that those who deserve to get at least 1/3 of tithes & are in fatal need, are not getting them.

It is so obvious, yet tradition is blinding many.
Paraphrasing a quote: It is easier to believe a lie heard a thousand times than a truth being heard for the first time.

Thinker there would be a bit of truth to your statement IF the federal government did not exist and did not engage in the world's greatest free give-away ever in the entire history of mankind.

I saw a sign in the lumber company hardware office (where people invest money to build things to benefit you and I and countless others): Make it as difficult to get Welfare as it is to get a Building Permit.

Do you have any idea how disparate those two endeavors are?

dc

[David13]

"Prosperity Investment Gospel"? I don't think you should ever look at tithing as an investment..........were you overpaying in hopes of extra Blessings of some sort? Odd concept.......

+1000. Tithing is a way to show the Lord you love other people. You're giving away part of your life to help someone when you tithe directly to those in need. We might disagree on that sentiment, Idahommie, but we totally agree on the inappropriateness of tithing as an investment.

Obrien
I want to thank you for all those tithes you paid. I'm sure that some of that went to benefit ME, in the glorious worship of Heavenly Father, in the meeting houses, the Temples. No greater gift can be given.
Perhaps some of your tithe was used in the Payson Temple. I enjoyed the open house immensely. And thousands will benefit thanks to your tithes in spirituality beyond belief.
I'm going next week to Tijuana to the open house for the new Temple there. Perhaps your tithes helped build that Temple as well, and you know the benefit to thousands of souls who will be brought to the Gospel and the glory of the Words of Heavenly Father because of it.
Many of them simple folks, like me who may never know your name. I know Obrien is your web name.
I think the church knows how to do it best. Feed the soul, and they will figure out how to feed the body.

As a side note how come they never made you Bishop? A personal question. You don't have to answer.
dc

[Obrien]

"Prosperity Investment Gospel"? I don't think you should ever look at tithing as an investment..........were you overpaying in hopes of extra Blessings of some sort? Odd concept.......

+1000. Tithing is a way to show the Lord you love other people. You're giving away part of your life to help someone when you tithe directly to those in need. We might disagree on that sentiment, Idahommie, but we totally agree on the inappropriateness of tithing as an investment.

Obrien
I want to thank you for all those tithes you paid. I'm sure that some of that went to benefit ME, in the glorious worship of Heavenly Father, in the meeting houses, the Temples. No greater gift can be given.
Perhaps some of your tithe was used in the Payson Temple. I enjoyed the open house immensely. And thousands will benefit thanks to your tithes in spirituality beyond belief.
I'm going next week to Tijuana to the open house for the new Temple there. Perhaps your tithes helped build that Temple as well, and you know the benefit to thousands of souls who will be brought to the Gospel and the glory of the Words of Heavenly Father because of it.
Many of them simple folks, like me who may never know your name. I know Obrien is your web name.
I think the church knows how to do it best. Feed the soul, and they will figure out how to feed the body.

As a side note how come they never made you Bishop? A personal question. You don't have to answer.
dc

You offer me far too much credit. Yes, I paid lots over the decades, and perhaps some of it went to the areas you mentioned above. If so, and if my tithe offered you comfort or spiritual food, I'm pleased you were blessed so.
If I had my choice now, I'd sell the chandeliers for hundreds of thousands, the fancy artwork etc etc etc and use the money to feed and / or clothe poor children. What is a more lasting expression of your love of God, a fancy couch in the celestial room or an orphan that is comforted for a year?

Jesus gave each of us personal direction to comfort those in need of comfort (Matt 25) in order to be on the right hand. I don't trust the church to do that, based solely on the existence of the Liahona children's foundation. When LCF is no longer needed, I'll consider tithing to the church again.

I was once "vetted" for a call to the bishopric. Nothing came of it, and I moved from that ward less than a year later (unexpectedly and not at all because of not being called). I'll never be called - both my parents were excommunicated, and I'm married (25+ years) to my high school sweetheart, who happens to be Catholic. I have too many anomalous red flags in my record. Also, before I left the last ward, I bore a 15 minute un-testimony. It was essentially Obrien standing at the pulpit and speaking right after I'd been released from my 2 year gig as gospel doctrine teacher. I think that raised some "suspicion" as well.

I suspect one day there will be a call for me to lead groups of saints in a more loosely organized church environment (NOT a snuffer community). Until then, I'll be Obrien, and try to raise my kids and love my wife and serve the best ways I can.

[Thinker]

It breaks my heart to think of how many people are financially suffering needlessly.
It's even more concerning that those who deserve to get at least 1/3 of tithes & are in fatal need, are not getting them.

It is so obvious, yet tradition is blinding many.
Paraphrasing a quote: It is easier to believe a lie heard a thousand times than a truth being heard for the first time.

Thinker there would be a bit of truth to your statement IF the federal government did not exist and did not engage in the world's greatest free give-away ever in the entire history of mankind.

I saw a sign in the lumber company hardware office (where people invest money to build things to benefit you and I and countless others): Make it as difficult to get Welfare as it is to get a Building Permit.

Do you have any idea how disparate those two endeavors are?

dc

Yes, I agree that the US welfare system (overall) is ridiculously irresponsible.
David, when I speak of the poor, I'm not speaking of those in the US who have multiple resources to help them, and many who often abuse it.
Haven't you been outside of this country to really poor areas - or at least seen extreme poverty in documentaries?
There is poverty that is so extreme that many people are dying every day - simply because they lack basic things like clean water, food, basic medicine.
If this were indeed the church of Christ, research, money and other effort would be expended to alleviate such needless suffering.
And in many countries, people who are starving to death cannot just sign up for welfare - the government is often corrupt or unable or unwilling to help.
This is why the law of tithing says that 1/3 of TITHES are to be given to those in need (Deut. 14:28-29). That's the lower law.
"Elder" Oaks admitted that not a penny of tithes goes to those in need - admitting that they break the law of tithing and disobey their responsibility as tithing gatherers.

Poverty
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=526BTs_DRoE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[farmerchick]

I noticed that somewhere in the above posts, Dave Ramsey was mentioned. He has great advice and also a fantastic plan with the debt snowball. Before I heard of him, (I lived my poor poor days from 1990-2000) I got out of debt doing what he prescribes. This was one of my miracles. I was prompted during some of the poorest days of my life, (top ramen, mac and cheese poor) to list my debts in order of how much I owed. I used an old white board I had and I looked at my debts daily. I paid the lowest bill off first and then tackled the next. Somehow as I worked painfully through it, I was able to have some success. When the kids would ask for something, mid sentence I just said no. They learned not to ask. Later, I was able to make up for all the No's! Like Dave Ramsey says, "Live like no one else so you can live like no one else!" It's a slow hard process to work through debt, but knowing you'll never have to pay that particular bill again is exhilarating and gives you hope. I never went to the bishop, as I was just becoming reactivated during my poorest days as well. I just prayed, paid and saved. Paying my tithing, is not an investment for me, although it is a duty, I don't view it as one. It is a gift of gratitude from me to my Savior who gives me everything that I have and made me everything good that I am. Prosperity and obedience to correct principles do go together. Tithing and charitable giving can teach the giver many things!

[Hopefull]

Paying my tithing, is not an investment for me, although it is a duty, I don't view it as one. It is a gift of gratitude from me to my Savior who gives me everything that I have and made me everything good that I am. Prosperity and obedience to correct principles do go together. Tithing and charitable giving can teach the giver many things!

Out of curiosity can I ask what you tithed on? All of your income or any extra? I have been raised to believe you tithe 10% of your income. I am currently in a similar position as the OP and can't get ahead. I have been reading a lot of scriptures today on tithing and have a hard time shaking the thought of not paying 10% on all incoming money.

[farmerchick]

I was taught to pay tithing on after tax earnings...All earnings. Even when I was poor....(I moved to my parents basement after my divorce and losing a home) I paid on my net earnings. I have always done it that way. I was in a bad way.....My car broke down...stilled owed on it...dead beat husband who left me in 50000 worth of debt. Mind you this is 1990's. I was unemployed for a short time as I had Three children under 5. I basically had to start over. I had been inactive for awhile before this as well. When I returned to church, I was broken in every way. Humbled to the core and I started paying my tithing as I understand it. Miracle after Miracle after miracle has happened when I prayed, paid and saved. It can happen for you to! The promise is there for anyone who honestly tithes.

[rewcox]

I like your posts. I appreciate your understanding. I'm sorry about your dbh. I'm uplifted by your strength!

I was taught to pay tithing on after tax earnings...All earnings. Even when I was poor....(I moved to my parents basement after my divorce and losing a home) I paid on my net earnings. I have always done it that way. I was in a bad way.....My car broke down...stilled owed on it...dead beat husband who left me in 50000 worth of debt. Mind you this is 1990's. I was unemployed for a short time as I had Three children under 5. I basically had to start over. I had been inactive for awhile before this as well. When I returned to church, I was broken in every way. Humbled to the core and I started paying my tithing as I understand it. Miracle after Miracle after miracle has happened when I prayed, paid and saved. It can happen for you to! The promise is there for anyone who honestly tithes.

[rewcox]

For Christmas one year, I bought 4 copies of Dave Ramsey's books. Kept one and gave one to our 3 children and their spouses. Our second son followed it to a tee, it works. Once you get on top it's great.

I noticed that somewhere in the above posts, Dave Ramsey was mentioned. He has great advice and also a fantastic plan with the debt snowball. Before I heard of him, (I lived my poor poor days from 1990-2000) I got out of debt doing what he prescribes. This was one of my miracles. I was prompted during some of the poorest days of my life, (top ramen, mac and cheese poor) to list my debts in order of how much I owed. I used an old white board I had and I looked at my debts daily. I paid the lowest bill off first and then tackled the next. Somehow as I worked painfully through it, I was able to have some success. When the kids would ask for something, mid sentence I just said no. They learned not to ask. Later, I was able to make up for all the No's! Like Dave Ramsey says, "Live like no one else so you can live like no one else!" It's a slow hard process to work through debt, but knowing you'll never have to pay that particular bill again is exhilarating and gives you hope. I never went to the bishop, as I was just becoming reactivated during my poorest days as well. I just prayed, paid and saved. Paying my tithing, is not an investment for me, although it is a duty, I don't view it as one. It is a gift of gratitude from me to my Savior who gives me everything that I have and made me everything good that I am. Prosperity and obedience to correct principles do go together. Tithing and charitable giving can teach the giver many things!

[rlovendale]

I think this is pretty cut and dry. One does not need to delve into the issues of gross vs. net or whether tithing somehow applies only to what's left over after you spend your paycheck.

1. Pay your tithing and fast offerings.
2. Pay your essential bills.
3. Cut back on unnecessary expenses.
4. If you still come up short and cannot feed your family, keep the lights on, etc. go speak with your Bishop. This is what fast offerings and the Church's provident living programs like the Bishop's Storehouse are for.
5. Work out a plan to get out of debt and put your money to better use. Dave Ramsey's class could be used in conjunction with the plan you work out with your Bishop. This plan may also involve other forms of welfare, but I would recommend not utilizing those if at all possible.

Edit: My wife and I completed Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace University course during the first year of our marriage, and it was probably one of the best things we could have done. I definitely recommend all of it, except his retirement investment advice which is absolutely horrible.