LDS Freedom Forum

Dash jones wrote:From what I understand of LDS beliefs.

The Son is the Father in that he is the Father of all creation. He is the son because the Father (Creator) descended and took upon him flesh. He is thus lower than the father in hierarchy in that he is the Son as per the flesh...however he is not the only begotten of that Father. This is also Jehovah.

The Son also has a spiritual (and physical in his case) Father. This is not the same as the Son/Father, but is the Father of the Son/Father of creation. He is the one that is the literal spiritual father of the Son, and the literal Father of his physical body. It isn't in violation of the natural laws, but a higher manifestation of those laws that enabled him to be the Father of the Son. Hence the Son is also the called the Son because he is the Son of the Father. This is the Father of Jehovah. Many call him by Elohim. Elohim actually is plural rather than singular however, which would seem to indicate a council of multiples of Deity. However, in regards to a name, many call the Father of Jehovah by this title or name. There are singular titles I suppose we could use, but beyond that name we are unsure what the actual name of the Father is except for Father.

In regards to the Ressurected or Celestial bodies, they are Spirit, but they are also Flesh. In otherwords, they are Flesh and bones (no blood from what I gather). Instead of Blood, you have spirit that is the basis of it. That could create some interesting conjecture (as 80% of the body is water...which is what blood is mostly, if there is no blood it is possible there is no water and hence...that 80% would be spirit?).

How's that for comprehension of the concept?

You nailed it!

Stahura wrote:

marc wrote:

Stahura wrote:The wording used to describe the Holy Ghost in D&C and the wording used to describe the Father is the same in LoF.

"The Father being a personage of spirit,"
"Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit"

This is why it's confusing. I get what you're saying though.

It's confusing because we were raised to see it as later general authorities see it and not as Joseph Smith taught it. The 1921 committee didn't get it. But you see, we are all spirit, but some of us have been "added upon." Some kept their first estate, some didn't. When we die, our tabernacles of flesh will become dust again with the earth, but when we resurrect, we will receive glory, power, fulness, etc. being joint heirs with Christ. Of course, others have been added upon even more glory, power, "possessing all perfection and fulness." -- LoF 5.

Hm..
Perhaps this can help me understand even better.

Can you explain the difference between The Father's body, and the body of someone who is currently in the world of Spirits?

The Father's body is one of spirit, flesh, bone, glory, power, fulness. The body of someone in the spirit world is a body of spirit.

Dash jones wrote:From what I understand of LDS beliefs.

The Son is the Father in that he is the Father of all creation. He is the son because the Father (Creator) descended and took upon him flesh. He is thus lower than the father in hierarchy in that he is the Son as per the flesh...however he is not the only begotten of that Father. This is also Jehovah.

The Son also has a spiritual (and physical in his case) Father. This is not the same as the Son/Father, but is the Father of the Son/Father of creation. He is the one that is the literal spiritual father of the Son, and the literal Father of his physical body. It isn't in violation of the natural laws, but a higher manifestation of those laws that enabled him to be the Father of the Son. Hence the Son is also the called the Son because he is the Son of the Father. This is the Father of Jehovah. Many call him by Elohim. Elohim actually is plural rather than singular however, which would seem to indicate a council of multiples of Deity. However, in regards to a name, many call the Father of Jehovah by this title or name. There are singular titles I suppose we could use, but beyond that name we are unsure what the actual name of the Father is except for Father.

In regards to the Ressurected or Celestial bodies, they are Spirit, but they are also Flesh. In otherwords, they are Flesh and bones (no blood from what I gather). Instead of Blood, you have spirit that is the basis of it. That could create some interesting conjecture (as 80% of the body is water...which is what blood is mostly, if there is no blood it is possible there is no water and hence...that 80% would be spirit?).

How's that for comprehension of the concept?

This differs greatly in Then the idea of the Trinity in that whilst the Trinity supports the idea of a Father/Son aspect in regards to creation and condescension, it does not support the idea that the Father/Son also have a Father. It also differs in the idea of what the Ressurection consists of.

I'm speechless. You just put that in such an incredible way, that I'm literally going to write that down and use that to explain to people haha!

Thank you brother

marc wrote:

Stahura wrote:

marc wrote:

Stahura wrote:The wording used to describe the Holy Ghost in D&C and the wording used to describe the Father is the same in LoF.

"The Father being a personage of spirit,"
"Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit"

This is why it's confusing. I get what you're saying though.

It's confusing because we were raised to see it as later general authorities see it and not as Joseph Smith taught it. The 1921 committee didn't get it. But you see, we are all spirit, but some of us have been "added upon." Some kept their first estate, some didn't. When we die, our tabernacles of flesh will become dust again with the earth, but when we resurrect, we will receive glory, power, fulness, etc. being joint heirs with Christ. Of course, others have been added upon even more glory, power, "possessing all perfection and fulness." -- LoF 5.

Hm..
Perhaps this can help me understand even better.

Can you explain the difference between The Father's body, and the body of someone who is currently in the world of Spirits?

The Father's body is one of spirit, flesh, bone, glory, power, fulness. The body of someone in the spirit world is a body of spirit.

I see

:ymapplause:

Now read 3 Nephi 1:14

14 Behold, I come unto my own, to fulfil all things which I have made known unto the children of men from the foundation of the world, and to do the will, both of the Father and of the Son—of the Father because of me, and of the Son because of my flesh. And behold, the time is at hand, and this night shall the sign be given.

Ether 3:14
14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

freedomforall wrote:Now read 3 Nephi 1:14

14 Behold, I come unto my own, to fulfil all things which I have made known unto the children of men from the foundation of the world, and to do the will, both of the Father and of the Son—of the Father because of me, and of the Son because of my flesh. And behold, the time is at hand, and this night shall the sign be given.

Ether 3:14
14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

"Of the Father, because of me"

What does this mean?

More of the same. Good find, though, ffa.

marc wrote:Abinadi explained how Jesus, aka Jehovah is both the Father and the Son. And not in a sectarian trinitarian way either. When Joseph Smith dedicated the Kirtland Temple, he was given the words to pray by Jesus/Jehovah who is both the Father and the Son, but of course who also has a Father in Heaven (who's voice John heard when Christ was baptized, etc).

reminds me of this...

If Abraham reasoned thus—If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it.

I want you to pay particular attention to what I am saying. Jesus said that the Father wrought precisely in the same way as His Father had done before Him. As the Father had done before. He laid down His life, and took it up the same as His Father had done before. He did as He was sent, to lay down His life and take it up again; and then was committed unto Him the keys, &c. I know it is good reasoning. -Joseph Smith (Meeting in the Grove, east of the Temple, June 16, 1844.)

Take for example my Dad.. he is a Father (to me) and also a son (to his Father/ my grandfather)

when I was younger it blew my mind that my dad used to be like me.. a little boy..

now when I teach my children I can see the same perplexities in their eyes when explaining this.. its quite enjoyable teaching them about life and salvation.

Titles. are the key

Joseph and Brigham go into more detail on who our great grand progenitor is.. very interesting topic

I'd love it if someone could explain the meaning of this:
"14 Behold, I come unto my own, to fulfil all things which I have made known unto the children of men from the foundation of the world, and to do the will, both of the Father and of the Son—of the Father because of me, and of the Son because of my flesh. And behold, the time is at hand, and this night shall the sign be given."

"Because of me" it's a pretty vague explanation

Not much time now, and haven't read the exact verse, but on the surface it appears to be as such.

If you read it as a single integrated statement it reads...

And to do the will of the Father because of my will, and the will of the son because of my human will.

it's speaking of his dual nature. The first is the will he has towards fulfilling all the commandments he has set forth and the entirety of his plan (of Salvation).

The other is speaking of the redemption of mankind itself, or the redemption of HIS flesh, that of humanity in general of which he is part of.

That's a basic gist of my reading in ONLY seeing that verse (when I have more time I'd read the entirety of the surrounding scriptures and such).

In the New Testament, typically the statements of the Will of the Father is dealing with the entirety of the Plan of Christ coming to redeem us from our sins and how it fulfills the great plan of Heaven.

When it refers to the flesh it is normally referring to humanity of some sort, mans fallen nature, or the side of man that is not glorific.

Father and Son are titles and roles.

Dash jones wrote:Not much time now, and haven't read the exact verse, but on the surface it appears to be as such.

If you read it as a single integrated statement it reads...

And to do the will of the Father because of my will, and the will of the son because of my human will.

it's speaking of his dual nature. The first is the will he has towards fulfilling all the commandments he has set forth and the entirety of his plan (of Salvation).

The other is speaking of the redemption of mankind itself, or the redemption of HIS flesh, that of humanity in general of which he is part of.

That's a basic gist of my reading in ONLY seeing that verse (when I have more time I'd read the entirety of the surrounding scriptures and such).

In the New Testament, typically the statements of the Will of the Father is dealing with the entirety of the Plan of Christ coming to redeem us from our sins and how it fulfills the great plan of Heaven.

When it refers to the flesh it is normally referring to humanity of some sort, mans fallen nature, or the side of man that is not glorific.

And THIS, is why I often prefer talking to other Christians who are not Mormon. You have a perspective much better than mine, and it's very possible that your understanding of a verse is correct, and the one I have been taught/understand is not

John 2:21-24
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [but] he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

John 14:28
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Ether 4:12
12 And whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do good is of me; for good cometh of none save it be of me. I am the same that leadeth men to all good; he that will not believe my words will not believe me—that I am; and he that will not believe me will not believe the Father who sent me. For behold, I am the Father, I am the light, and the life, and the truth of the world.

Stahura wrote:I'd love it if someone could explain the meaning of this:
"14 Behold, I come unto my own, to fulfil all things which I have made known unto the children of men from the foundation of the world, and to do the will, both of the Father and of the Son—of the Father because of me, and of the Son because of my flesh. And behold, the time is at hand, and this night shall the sign be given."

"Because of me" it's a pretty vague explanation

This is how I would clarify it in its simplest terms: Father=Creator. Son=Creation. The flesh is of the dust of the earth. Before the earth was, He was. We all were. So when we look in the mirror, what we see is not who we are, but the tabernacles in which we dwell.

marc wrote:

Stahura wrote:I'd love it if someone could explain the meaning of this:
"14 Behold, I come unto my own, to fulfil all things which I have made known unto the children of men from the foundation of the world, and to do the will, both of the Father and of the Son—of the Father because of me, and of the Son because of my flesh. And behold, the time is at hand, and this night shall the sign be given."

"Because of me" it's a pretty vague explanation

This is how I would clarify it in its simplest terms: Father=Creator. Son=Creation. The flesh is of the dust of the earth. Before the earth was, He was. We all were. So when we look in the mirror, what we see is not who we are, but the tabernacles in which we dwell.

Hmm. Things are starting to become a little more clear.

I was on another thread and posted this, and since I posted this there, I thought it would fit here very nicely.

Joseph Smith Translation
JST, John 1:1–34.
Compare John 1:1–34

1 In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God.

2 The same (the Son) was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made which was made.

4 In him was the gospel, and the gospel was the life, and the life was the light of men;

5 And the light shineth in the world, and the world perceiveth it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 The same came into the world for a witness, to bear witness of the light, to bear record of the gospel through the Son, unto all, that through him men might believe.

8 He was not that light, but came to bear witness of that light,

9 Which was the true light, which lighteth every man who cometh into the world;

10 Even the Son of God. He who was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God; only to them who believe on his name.

13 He was born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the same word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

15 John bear witness of him, and cried, saying, This is he of whom I spake; He who cometh after me, is preferred before me; for he was before me.

16 For in the beginning was the Word, even the Son, who is made flesh, and sent unto us by the will of the Father. And as many as believe on his name shall receive of his fullness. And of his fullness have all we received, even immortality and eternal life, through his grace.

17 For the law was given through Moses, but life and truth came through Jesus Christ.

18 For the law was after a carnal commandment, to the administration of death; but the gospel was after the power of an endless life, through Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father.

19 And no man hath seen God at any time, except he hath borne record of the Son; for except it is through him no man can be saved.

28 He it is of whom I bear record. He is that prophet, even Elias, who, coming after me, is preferred before me, whose shoe’s latchet I am not worthy to unloose, or whose place I am not able to fill; for he shall baptize, not only with water, but with fire, and with the Holy Ghost.

32 And I knew him; for he who sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me; Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he who baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

33 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

34 These things were done in Bethabara, beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.
............................................................................................................................................
Mosiah 15:1-5
1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

Jehovah created all things under the direction of His Father, so He is called God, the Only Begotten of the Father.

2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—

3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—

D&C 93:4
4 The Father because he gave me of his fulness, and the Son because I was in the world and made flesh my tabernacle, and dwelt among the sons of men.

Alma 7:10
10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

Alma 11:39
39 And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;

3 Ne. 9:15
15 Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. I was with the Father from the beginning. I am in the Father, and the Father in me; and in me hath the Father glorified his name.

5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

Mark 8:31
31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Well, this question came up today in Institute class or adult gospel, on our evaluation test, which question I got wrong as I had not read this thread yet.
Anyway, I called a JW friend, a real nice lady, I may say a saint, whom I have known for 20 years.
She said that (from the JW) point of view they believe Jehovah is God, but that in the New Testament Jehovah is Jesus?
(Is that possible she said that?)
She also mentioned John 17 and that faith in God and Jesus can give eternal life.

Stahura
Thanks for all your references there, I'm going to study all of them.
dc

David13 wrote:Well, this question came up today in Institute class or adult gospel, on our evaluation test, which question I got wrong as I had not read this thread yet.
Anyway, I called a JW friend, a real nice lady, I may say a saint, whom I have known for 20 years.
She said that (from the JW) point of view they believe Jehovah is God, but that in the New Testament Jehovah is Jesus?
(Is that possible she said that?)
She also mentioned John 17 and that faith in God and Jesus can give eternal life.

Stahura
Thanks for all your references there, I'm going to study all of them.
dc

yeah, these references will help much.

JW's think that Jehovah is God yes,if you tell a JW that Jesus is Jevovah God, they get all riled up. I don't think she would say that the NT Jehovah is Jesus, that doesn't make sense. IF she did say that, either she doesn't believe the correct JW teachings, or American JW's have different doctrines than Brazilian JW's, because the brazilian JW's loved to prove me wrong when I said that Jesus is Jehovah
Trust me, if you study these scriptures, you'll see how indisputable this truth is.
After showing a JW those scriptures, they will walk away from the conversation knowingly rejecting the truth, or they will go home and seek truth for themselves, and hopefully find it.

David13 wrote: Thanks for all your references there, I'm going to study all of them.
dc

P.S. After I had done this study and compiled this list, I found a few of these scriptures were used in the Institute Manuals. The Institute manuals are wonderful tools. I'd recommend you study with them some time.

Thanks
I have now started on the Institute manuals.
dc

Stahura wrote:

freedomforall wrote:Now read 3 Nephi 1:14

14 Behold, I come unto my own, to fulfil all things which I have made known unto the children of men from the foundation of the world, and to do the will, both of the Father and of the Son—of the Father because of me, and of the Son because of my flesh. And behold, the time is at hand, and this night shall the sign be given.

Ether 3:14
14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

"Of the Father, because of me"

What does this mean?

I think this question was overlooked. So I answer it now.

I feel the answer to you question is given in Mosiah 15:1-5

1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

Mosiah 13:34
34 Have they not said that God himself should come down among the children of men, and take upon him the form of man, and go forth in mighty power upon the face of the earth?

Morm. 7:7
7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

Alma 11:39
39 And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;

Mosiah 3:8
8 And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.

3 Ne. 9:15
15 Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. I was with the Father from the beginning. I am in the Father, and the Father in me; and in me hath the Father glorified his name.

John 19:7
7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

Ether 3:14
14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

Ether 4:7
7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

Bump for relevance to another thread.

Stahura wrote: ↑November 8th, 2015, 12:45 am We are the only church that teaches that Jesus is Jehovah. There is proof all over the place in the Bible. I endeavored to find the best references I could using only the Bible, and this is part of the list that I compiled.

Understanding that Jesus is Jehovah helps us shed the false teaching that Jesus and The Father are one being. It helps us understand the whole mission of Jesus Christ.

This also will help you understand how God and Jesus are one.
This in turn will help you understand the function of the Spirit, and how we can become one with God.

I suggest that everyone read these references together and pray that the Spirit can teach us new truths.

Blue scriptures are important, Red scriptures are the ones you really want to remember.

Revelations 1:6
Revelations 1:8-11
Revelations 1:13-15
Revelations 1:18
Revelations 2:18
Revelations 2:27 & 3:21

Isaiah 48:12-13, 17 -Note, the whole time it's one person speaking
Isaiah 47:4 & 48:2 - Note, God of Israel , Lord of Hosts, Our Redeemer
Isaiah 43:1, 3, 11 & Acts 4:12 - Isaiah 12:2

Colossians 1:13-17 - Hebrews 1:2
Doctrine & Covenants 38:1-6 & Doctrine & Covenants 76:20-24
(Pear of Great Price)Moses 1:33 & Genesis 2:4
Isaiah 9:6, Mosiah 3:8
Isaiah 63:8-9, 16 & Isaiah 54: 5, 8 & Matthew 9:15 & John 3:29
1 Timothy 3:16
Luke 1:46-55, 68
John 1(First half)
Revelations 1:17-18 & Isaiah 44:6 Isaiah 48:12
John 12:35-44
Jeremiah 2:13 & John 4:10, 7:37, & Revelations 21:6
Jeremiah 3:14 & Revelations 21:9 & John 3:29
Isaiah 63:1-3 & Revelations 19:13 & Genesis 49:11
Isaiah 63:5, Isaiah 59:16
Isaiah 8:14, 28:16 & Romans 9:33 & atthew 21:44, Ezekiel 11:16
Isaiah 44:6 & John 1:49 & Revelations 1:8, 17-18
Isaiah 45:23 & Romans 14:11
Isaiah 29:23

Pay close attention to the titles and names used in each scripture and compare them.

Excellent, Stahura! This is pure proof that there is gold in them there past posts. Understanding the differences in Christian beliefs when compared with the Bible will only be faith promoting to the Saints.I have some missionary experiences from Ohio that I will tell some day on this subject.

With visualization, it was made clear to me that Jehovah, was, indeed, Jesus the Christ. This can be shown by the comparison of Jehovah and Mount Sinai . . . He, Himself, would be the one to descend into the fire of Sacrifice to redeem His people. Please follow the illustrations and comparisons, below, equating the Mountain with the Altar. This was a visual object lesson of what was being done on their behalf . . . I wonder if they got it? I wonder if YOU get it?

gclayjr wrote: ↑November 8th, 2015, 1:23 pm Stahura,

You must have more thoughtful JWs than I am familiar with. Most Protestants, I know would simply mindlessly cite John 10:30 and move on. Now if could only prove that one must be repentant, and endure to the end, because God is not going to save all by grace alone.

Regards,

George CLay

Salvation from the fall comes through faith, relying entirely on the merits of Christ who is MIGHTY TO SAVE. But eternal life requires us to press forward under our own effort and endure to the end.

2 Nephi 31
17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.

18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.

19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save. (Save = Salvation. Christ is "mighty to save" and we just need to have unshaken faith in him to be saved, relying wholly upon his merits, not our own. This is Salvation. But we are not done, we need to move on to perfection and eternal life.)

20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

Seek truth,
Amonhi