LDS Freedom Forum

Deuteronomy 31:8-9
8 When the most High(The Father) divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

9 For the LORD'S (Jehovah in Hebrew)portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

So it speaks of the MOST high, dividing inheritances, and separating the son of ADAM.
It seems that LORD or, JEHOVAH received an inheritance(portion).
If LORD(Jehovah) is the father, why would he receive an inheritance or portion from someone else?

To me, it looks like the MOST HIGH, gave JEHOVAH, a portion.

There are a few studies that show that Jewish history used to be polytheistic, and it was slowly changed to be monotheistic with time.

sandman45 wrote:Good Thread and topic.

I wanted to see what the early brethren had to say on this subject.. So I found what Joseph, Brigham, Taylor, Pratt, and others taught..

I also found scriptures OLD, NEW testaments, and D&C and P of G P to support what the early brethren taught..

I also notice that Wilford Woodruff tried to get people to stop discussing things because people were arguing and contended about the topics..

[

Be sure to read my posts in response to yours, and tell me what you think.

Dash jones wrote:...and the guy who wrote Lecture on Faith...

The Lectures on Faith is traditionally attributed to Sidney Rigdon, but Joseph Smith engaged in its preparations. If you have the seven volume church history books, please refer to book two, or HC 2:180, which I will transcribe from my paperback copy, written by Joseph Smith:

CHAPTER XIII
THE LECTURES ON FAITH-TWELVE APOSTLES CHOSEN AND ORDAINED.

January, 1835.--During the month of January, I was engaged in the school of the Elders, and in preparing the lectures on theology for publication in the book of Doctrine and Covenants...

Also please refer to this topic, which I created a few years ago: Lectures on Faith: decanonization...

Somewhere in the Joseph Smith papers, I read an entry, which Joseph made, where he was engaged in editing it. I am trying to find it, but there's a lot to sift through. Anyway, Joseph Smith made himself accountable and answerable for every principle he advanced in it. So did Sidney Rigdon, Oliver Cowdery and Fredrick G. Williams.

Stahura wrote:
Here, Joseph Smith referring to Jesus Christ as Jehovah in 1836

D&C 110

2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure cgold, in color like amber.

3 His aeyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his cvoice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:

4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.


There are simply 2 things we can take from it.

1. Joseph Smith did not know that Jesus is Jehovah until later in life, so for awhile he mistakenly called the Father Jehovah, when it was really Jesus that is Jehovah.
2. Jehovah can be a title like Elias.


Now, I think it can be either one of these options.

I think it can also be 1 & 2. I believe it's possible that Jehovah could be Jesus' name, but Jehovah is ALSO a title.

What do you think?

I think that is the only passage of scripture that seems to be in contradiction to whether Jesus is Jehovah or if its the Father..

We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.

His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying: I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father. (D & C 110:2-4)

Notice that it says His voice was AS “the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah,” indicating that His voice had the powerful sound of rushing water and the sound of Jehovah–not that it was the actual voice of water or of Jehovah.

So here we have Jesus Christ appearing as a glorified resurrected being in the Kirtland Temple, talking with the same power and authority as Jehovah (God, the Father). In 1820 God had introduced His Son, Jesus Christ, to Joseph Smith, and He said, “This is my Beloved Son, Hear Him.” (J.S. 2:17) The young Joseph was instructed to listen to Jesus Christ–not only on that particular occasion but throughout his earthly mission. At this time, the Resurrected Savior, Jesus Christ, was assigned by the Father to deal directly with the Prophet and leader of this dispensation–though Jesus may use different titles and function in various offices during that time.

I like this explanation.. makes sense to me at least.

I think Joseph knew exactly who he was talking about.. He was the one who stared into the heavens for longer than 5 minutes and knew more just from that than all the books ever written on the subject of god and religion.

If like you said Joseph knew later in life then you would think Brigham and others would correspond with that but they don't they all continue teaching that Jehovah is the Father of Jesus..

I think that Jesus is a Jehovah (title) now but then he wasn't since he was not yet exalted.. not yet resurrected. (im talking of back in OLD and NEW testamet times). This would explain the confusion..

Also in the old endowment Jesus is referred to Jeshua or something if I remember correctly ( no im not that old lol, got it from the KOZ endowment.. i think it was from BY assistant's Journal back in the day.. )

anyway..

check this out..

This is a time when we are called upon to bring our practical religion into use, to put on the whole armour of God, and to trust in Him. The Savior said he could call to His help more than twelve legions of angels; more than the Roman hosts; but he knowing the great purposes of Jehovah could go like a lamb to the slaughter. (JD 26:172) - Willard Richards (April 4, 1885)

Here Richards was supporting the doctrine that had been taught for 50 years previous.

We learn that our Savior was born of a woman, and he was named Jesus the Christ. His name when He was a spiritual being, during the first half of the existence of the earth, before He was made flesh and blood, was Jehovah. He was in the beginning of the creation, and He had to do and has had to do continually with the creation and government of this heaven and this earth.

But up to this time that He came and dwelt in the flesh and was born of Mary, His Mother, He dwelt in the spirit life. He was the spirit Being that directed, governed and gave the law on Mount Sinai, where Moses was permitted to see Him in part. (JD 26:300) (August 1885)

so only a few months later Richards says Jesus is Jehovah..what the...

this was in direct contradiction with BY..

We begin with the father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our spirits–who is he? . . . (He is) that great and wise and glorious being that the children of Israel were afraid of, whose countenance shone so that they could not look upon him . . . that man put his hands out before Moses in the cleft of a rock until his glory passed by and would not suffer Moses to see his face but his hind parts only . . . I tell you this is my belief about that personage who is called the Ancient of Days, the Prince, and so on. (Apr. 25, 1855, Unpublished Sermon, LDS Archives)

then George Q Cannon started to belief the Jesus Jehovah thing.

He <George Q. Cannon> believes that Jesus Christ is Jehovah, and . . . Jesus, in speaking of Himself as the very eternal Father speaks as one of the Godhead, etc.” (A. H. Cannon Journal, June 23, 1889)

George Q. Cannon was a counselor to Wilford Woodruff in the First Presidency, they apparently held differing views as to the identity of Jehovah.

Thus shall our supplications, undisturbed by a thought of discord, unitedly mount into the ears of Jehovah and draw down the choice blessings of the God of Heaven. (Messages of the First Presidency 3:243) 1893

In 1915 James E. Talmage continued along this line and made a major and convincing effort in promoting Jesus to Jehovah.

B.H. Roberts, in 1903, wrote a book entitled The Mormon Doctrine of Deity, his view is that the God of the Old Testament was the Father. ( See page 22 ) But then in 1932 he wrote the book Rasha, the Jew, in which he refers to Jesus as Jehovah and the God of the Old Testament.

Why did he change his belief?

in 1916 “A Doctrinal Exposition by the First Presidency and The Twelve”, called “The Father and the Son.” This article established the doctrine that Jesus is Jehovah and the Creator. (See Messages of the First Presidency 5:26-34.)

I think this is where the whole Jesus-Jehovah thing was made official.. before then there were 2 views.

I believe that this was done to distance the belief of who Adam really is.. or cover up what Brigham taught.. anyway my 2 cents

good discussion so far

I think this is an important discussion..

hence..

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

sandman45 wrote:
I think Joseph knew exactly who he was talking about.. He was the one who stared into the heavens for longer than 5 minutes and knew more just from that than all the books ever written on the subject of god and religion...

I agree. In 1832, just two years after the church was restored, Joseph and Sidney had a great vision, which we read about in D&C 76.

One witness, Philo Dibble, present in the room recalled that the two men sat motionless for about an hour. One would say, "What do I see," and describe it, and the other would say, "I see the same" (Juvenile Instructor 27 [May 15, 1892]:303-304).

It is apparent that the Prophet Joseph Smith did not impart all that he saw in vision, for he later said, "I could explain a hundred fold more than I ever have of the glories of the kingdoms manifested to me in the vision, were I permitted, and were the people prepared to receive them" (TPJS, p. 305).

"Could you gaze into heaven five minutes, you would know more than you would by reading all that ever was written on the subject." - Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p 324

This was THREE years before the Lectures on Faith were prepared by Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon no less. Did they know what they were talking about? My opinion? Absolutely!!

marc wrote:

sandman45 wrote:
I think Joseph knew exactly who he was talking about.. He was the one who stared into the heavens for longer than 5 minutes and knew more just from that than all the books ever written on the subject of god and religion...

I agree. In 1832, just two years after the church was restored, Joseph and Sidney had a great vision, which we read about in D&C 76.

One witness, Philo Dibble, present in the room recalled that the two men sat motionless for about an hour. One would say, "What do I see," and describe it, and the other would say, "I see the same" (Juvenile Instructor 27 [May 15, 1892]:303-304).

It is apparent that the Prophet Joseph Smith did not impart all that he saw in vision, for he later said, "I could explain a hundred fold more than I ever have of the glories of the kingdoms manifested to me in the vision, were I permitted, and were the people prepared to receive them" (TPJS, p. 305).

"Could you gaze into heaven five minutes, you would know more than you would by reading all that ever was written on the subject." - Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p 324

This was THREE years before the Lectures on Faith were prepared by Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon no less. Did they know what they were talking about? My opinion? Absolutely!!

+1

I think that Joseph learned more over the years and gained a better understanding of these things.

Stahura wrote:I think that Joseph learned more over the years and gained a better understanding of these things.

Would you clarify this?

marc wrote:

Stahura wrote:I think that Joseph learned more over the years and gained a better understanding of these things.

Would you clarify this?

I just think between 1832 -1844 Joseph learned a lot of things that he didn't know before, in this case, more about the mission of Jesus, his role and name, The mission of Elias, all kinds of things that perhaps he didn't understand before.

For example, in 1832 he called the Father "Jehovah", but in 1836 he called Jesus Jehovah.
Either he learned that Jehovah is a title, or he later learned that the Father is not Jehovah, but Christ is.

just my thoughts.

I'ts just clear as day in the scriptures that Jesus is Jehovah.
So logically, we have to accept that he is Jehovah, and the Father goes by a different name, or we must accept some Catholic trinity-like belief that they are one and the same. Or option 3, Jehovah is a title that the Prophets use interchangeably for the Father, and the Son.

Abinadi explained how Jesus, aka Jehovah is both the Father and the Son. And not in a sectarian trinitarian way either. When Joseph Smith dedicated the Kirtland Temple, he was given the words to pray by Jesus/Jehovah who is both the Father and the Son, but of course who also has a Father in Heaven (who's voice John heard when Christ was baptized, etc).

marc wrote:Abinadi explained how Jesus, aka Jehovah is both the Father and the Son. And not in a sectarian trinitarian way either. When Joseph Smith dedicated the Kirtland Temple, he was given the words to pray by Jesus/Jehovah who is both the Father and the Son, but of course who also has a Father in Heaven (who's voice John heard when Christ was baptized, etc).

I see that makes complete sense.

I'm going to share some scriptures for you to ponder deeply.

John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Exodus 3: 13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?

14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

D&C 93:1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;

2 And that I am the true light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world;

3 And that I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one—

4 The Father because he gave me of his fulness, and the Son because I was in the world and made flesh my tabernacle, and dwelt among the sons of men.

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Mosiah 15:1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—

3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—

4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

6 And after all this, after working many mighty miracles among the children of men, he shall be led, yea, even as Isaiah said, as a sheep before the shearer is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.

7 Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father...

10 And now I say unto you, who shall declare his generation? Behold, I say unto you, that when his soul has been made an offering for sin he shall see his seed. And now what say ye? And who shall be his seed?...

Ether 3:14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

JSH 1:17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Jehovah goes on to call Moses His son. He has also called others His son(s):

D&C 39:1 Hearken and listen to the voice of him who is from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I Am, even Jesus Christ—

2 The light and the life of the world; a light which shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not;

3 The same which came in the meridian of time unto mine own, and mine own received me not;

4 But to as many as received me, gave I power to become my sons; and even so will I give unto as many as will receive me, power to become my sons.

D&C 31:1 Thomas, my son, blessed are you because of your faith in my work.

2 Behold, you have had many afflictions because of your family; nevertheless, I will bless you and your family, yea, your little ones; and the day cometh that they will believe and know the truth and be one with you in my church.

D&C 34:1 My son Orson, hearken and hear and behold what I, the Lord God, shall say unto you, even Jesus Christ your Redeemer;

2 The light and the life of the world, a light which shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not;

3 Who so loved the world that he gave his own life, that as many as would believe might become the sons of God. Wherefore you are my son;

3 Nephi:20 Father, I thank thee that thou hast given the Holy Ghost unto these whom I have chosen; and it is because of their belief in me that I have chosen them out of the world.

21 Father, I pray thee that thou wilt give the Holy Ghost unto all them that shall believe in their words.

22 Father, thou hast given them the Holy Ghost because they believe in me; and thou seest that they believe in me because thou hearest them, and they pray unto me; and they pray unto me because I am with them.

23 And now Father, I pray unto thee for them, and also for all those who shall believe on their words, that they may believe in me, that I may be in them as thou, Father, art in me, that we may be one.

Then there's the most obvious one: D&C 109 where Joseph Smith prays to Jehovah as the Father in the name of the Son, Jesus Christ when dedicating the temple. The Kirtland Temple dedicatory prayer was specifically given to Joseph Smith by revelation. He did not make these words up. Prayerfully study who Joseph Smith is addressing and the names used to address Him.

D&C109:1 Thanks be to thy name, O Lord God of Israel, who keepest covenant and showest mercy unto thy servants who walk uprightly before thee, with all their hearts...

4 And now we ask thee, Holy Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of thy bosom, in whose name alone salvation can be administered to the children of men, we ask thee, O Lord, to accept of this house, the workmanship of the hands of us, thy servants, which thou didst command us to build...

10 And now, Holy Father, we ask thee to assist us, thy people, with thy grace, in calling our solemn assembly, that it may be done to thine honor and to thy divine acceptance...

42 But deliver thou, O Jehovah, we beseech thee, thy servants from their hands, and cleanse them from their blood.

43 O Lord, we delight not in the destruction of our fellow men; their souls are precious before thee;

44 But thy word must be fulfilled. Help thy servants to say, with thy grace assisting them: Thy will be done, O Lord, and not ours....

68 O Lord, remember thy servant, Joseph Smith, Jun., and all his afflictions and persecutions—how he has covenanted with Jehovah, and vowed to thee, O Mighty God of Jacob—and the commandments which thou hast given unto him, and that he hath sincerely striven to do thy will.

69 Have mercy, O Lord, upon his wife and children, that they may be exalted in thy presence, and preserved by thy fostering hand...

78 O hear, O hear, O hear us, O Lord! And answer these petitions, and accept the dedication of this house unto thee, the work of our hands, which we have built unto thy name;

79 And also this church, to put upon it thy name. And help us by the power of thy Spirit, that we may mingle our voices with those bright, shining seraphs around thy throne, with acclamations of praise, singing Hosanna to God and the Lamb!

Questions to pionder: Who is the Father? Who is the Son? Is the Son a Father? Is the Father also a Son? By what virtue? If Jesus Christ is both a Father and a Son, is He also someone's Son? And then is he also someone's Father?

marc wrote:I'm going to share some scriptures for you to ponder deeply.

John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Exodus 3: 13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?

14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

D&C 93:1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;

2 And that I am the true light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world;

3 And that I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one—

4 The Father because he gave me of his fulness, and the Son because I was in the world and made flesh my tabernacle, and dwelt among the sons of men.

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Mosiah 15:1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—

3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—

4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

6 And after all this, after working many mighty miracles among the children of men, he shall be led, yea, even as Isaiah said, as a sheep before the shearer is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.

7 Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father...

10 And now I say unto you, who shall declare his generation? Behold, I say unto you, that when his soul has been made an offering for sin he shall see his seed. And now what say ye? And who shall be his seed?...

Ether 3:14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

JSH 1:17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Jehovah goes on to call Moses His son. He has also called others His son(s):

D&C 39:1 Hearken and listen to the voice of him who is from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I Am, even Jesus Christ—

2 The light and the life of the world; a light which shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not;

3 The same which came in the meridian of time unto mine own, and mine own received me not;

4 But to as many as received me, gave I power to become my sons; and even so will I give unto as many as will receive me, power to become my sons.

D&C 31:1 Thomas, my son, blessed are you because of your faith in my work.

2 Behold, you have had many afflictions because of your family; nevertheless, I will bless you and your family, yea, your little ones; and the day cometh that they will believe and know the truth and be one with you in my church.

D&C 34:1 My son Orson, hearken and hear and behold what I, the Lord God, shall say unto you, even Jesus Christ your Redeemer;

2 The light and the life of the world, a light which shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not;

3 Who so loved the world that he gave his own life, that as many as would believe might become the sons of God. Wherefore you are my son;

3 Nephi:20 Father, I thank thee that thou hast given the Holy Ghost unto these whom I have chosen; and it is because of their belief in me that I have chosen them out of the world.

21 Father, I pray thee that thou wilt give the Holy Ghost unto all them that shall believe in their words.

22 Father, thou hast given them the Holy Ghost because they believe in me; and thou seest that they believe in me because thou hearest them, and they pray unto me; and they pray unto me because I am with them.

23 And now Father, I pray unto thee for them, and also for all those who shall believe on their words, that they may believe in me, that I may be in them as thou, Father, art in me, that we may be one.

Then there's the most obvious one: D&C 109 where Joseph Smith prays to Jehovah as the Father in the name of the Son, Jesus Christ when dedicating the temple. The Kirtland Temple dedicatory prayer was specifically given to Joseph Smith by revelation. He did not make these words up. Prayerfully study who Joseph Smith is addressing and the names used to address Him.

D&C109:1 Thanks be to thy name, O Lord God of Israel, who keepest covenant and showest mercy unto thy servants who walk uprightly before thee, with all their hearts...

4 And now we ask thee, Holy Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of thy bosom, in whose name alone salvation can be administered to the children of men, we ask thee, O Lord, to accept of this house, the workmanship of the hands of us, thy servants, which thou didst command us to build...

10 And now, Holy Father, we ask thee to assist us, thy people, with thy grace, in calling our solemn assembly, that it may be done to thine honor and to thy divine acceptance...

42 But deliver thou, O Jehovah, we beseech thee, thy servants from their hands, and cleanse them from their blood.

43 O Lord, we delight not in the destruction of our fellow men; their souls are precious before thee;

44 But thy word must be fulfilled. Help thy servants to say, with thy grace assisting them: Thy will be done, O Lord, and not ours....

68 O Lord, remember thy servant, Joseph Smith, Jun., and all his afflictions and persecutions—how he has covenanted with Jehovah, and vowed to thee, O Mighty God of Jacob—and the commandments which thou hast given unto him, and that he hath sincerely striven to do thy will.

69 Have mercy, O Lord, upon his wife and children, that they may be exalted in thy presence, and preserved by thy fostering hand...

78 O hear, O hear, O hear us, O Lord! And answer these petitions, and accept the dedication of this house unto thee, the work of our hands, which we have built unto thy name;

79 And also this church, to put upon it thy name. And help us by the power of thy Spirit, that we may mingle our voices with those bright, shining seraphs around thy throne, with acclamations of praise, singing Hosanna to God and the Lamb!

Questions to pionder: Who is the Father? Who is the Son? Is the Son a Father? Is the Father also a Son? By what virtue? If Jesus Christ is both a Father and a Son, is He also someone's Son? And then is he also someone's Father?

I always get a headache when I read the last one that you posted, the prayer.

Is Joseph addressing the same person the whole time? Does he switch between addressing them?

Reading all the other quotes you've posted, I have an understanding, or at least I think I do, because I've pondered much on them. The prayer always gets me and makes me doubt what I understand.

Joseph is addressing the same Person the entire time. While Joseph has always known there are three personages in the Godhead; three individuals, the one we are concerned with--who is concerned with us is Jehova. Why? Because it is HIS work and HIS glory to bring to pass our eternal lives. Thus we have the Lectures on Faith, which teach in a specific context why this is. The Holy Ghost is a personage of purer matter, which represents the mind of God. The Holy Ghost fills the expanse of creation and the laws that govern it. Orson Pratt gave a really good discourse to explain further this concept, which makes understanding the lectures a little easier. Jesus/Jehovah's Father has only been "involved" a few times and only indirectly to be a second witness. We read about this in 2 Nephi 31, Christ's baptism, Joseph's First Vision, to name a few.

Furthermore, when Jesus visited the people at Bountiful, He had become a "Father" to all present and naturally why they prayed to Him, even as He prayed to His own Father. This is why He said "be ye therefore perfect even as I or your Father who is in heaven is perfect." So here we get a picture of two Fathers. We could in this context say that a "Father" is a covenant relationship, even though Jesus Christ was also begotten in the flesh by His Father. It wasn't until Christ was baptized and received the Holy Ghost, fulfilling all righteousness that His Father declared from heaven, "This is my beloved Son."

Enjoy:

The Holy Spirit and the Godhead by Orson Pratt.

What makes Mormons' brains explode is when they cannot wrap their minds around the Father being Spirit as we read about in the LoF. I wrestled with this for years. But why do we limit our understanding? Consider how Jesus Christ was able to touch the 16 stones presented to Him by the brother of Jared even though this was the premortal Christ--no temporal body. And yet, after Christ resurrected with a "physical" body as we understand it, He was able to appear to his disciples in a private room without needing to use the door and could eat a piece of fish in front of them. We have to unlearn what we have learned and pay attention to what is going on.

marc wrote:What makes Mormons' brains explode is when they cannot wrap their minds around the Father being Spirit as we read about in the LoF. I wrestled with this for years. But why do we limit our understanding? Consider how Jesus Christ was able to touch the 16 stones presented to Him by the brother of Jared even though this was the premortal Christ--no temporal body. And yet, after Christ resurrected with a "physical" body as we understand it, He was able to appear to his disciples in a private room without needing to use the door and could eat a piece of fish in front of them. We have to unlearn what we have learned and pay attention to what is going on.

Thank you for the read, I will read it later tonight.

The Father being a Spirit is a new thought, but it doesn't bother me as much as it used to.

When it says that the Father is a personage of Spirit and power and glory etc, would that mean that he is a personage of spirit, the same type of spirit as someone who is currently in the spirit world?

Or when it says he is a personage of Spirit, is it something more than the spirit that is within us? Something different than the spirits within the world of spirits. Is he a being of Spirit, that is more refined? Instead of being a spirit inside a tabernacle, is his spirit fused together with a tabernacle, becoming a type of body that is more than just a spirit, and yet is still called a body of Spirit? It's incredibly hard to put in words, I hope you understanding what I'm trying to ask.

marc wrote:Joseph is addressing the same Person the entire time. While Joseph has always known there are three personages in the Godhead; three individuals, the one we are concerned with--who is concerned with us is Jehova. Why? Because it is HIS work and HIS glory to bring to pass our eternal lives. Thus we have the Lectures on Faith, which teach in a specific context why this is. The Holy Ghost is a personage of purer matter, which represents the mind of God. The Holy Ghost fills the expanse of creation and the laws that govern it. Orson Pratt gave a really good discourse to explain further this concept, which makes understanding the lectures a little easier. Jesus/Jehovah's Father has only been "involved" a few times and only indirectly to be a second witness. We read about this in 2 Nephi 31, Christ's baptism, Joseph's First Vision, to name a few.

I understand that the Father has only been involved a few times. It's only when titles like Father and Jehovah intermix that everything gets fuzzy. I have much to ponder on.
I will ponder, then return and report

Noo, not the Father being "a" Spirit. The Father being Spirit but also glory and power, etc (LoF 5). Not A Spirit. There is a difference.

Furthermore, consider the following passage:

D&C 130: 22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

and yet:

D&C 68:3 And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost.

4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.

Stahura wrote:Or when it says he is a personage of Spirit, is it something more than the spirit that is within us? Something different than the spirits within the world of spirits. Is he a being of Spirit, that is more refined? Instead of being a spirit inside a tabernacle, is his spirit fused together with a tabernacle, becoming a type of body that is more than just a spirit, and yet is still called a body of Spirit? It's incredibly hard to put in words, I hope you understanding what I'm trying to ask.

D&C 131: 7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

marc wrote:Noo, not the Father being "a" Spirit. The Father being Spirit but also glory and power, etc (LoF 5). Not A Spirit. There is a difference.

Furthermore, consider the following passage:

D&C 130: 22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

and yet:

D&C 68:3 And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost.

4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.

The wording used to describe the Holy Ghost in D&C and the wording used to describe the Father is the same in LoF.

"The Father being a personage of spirit,"
"Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit"

This is why it's confusing. I get what you're saying though.

From what I understand of LDS beliefs.

The Son is the Father in that he is the Father of all creation. He is the son because the Father (Creator) descended and took upon him flesh. He is thus lower than the father in hierarchy in that he is the Son as per the flesh...however he is not the only begotten of that Father. This is also Jehovah.

The Son also has a spiritual (and physical in his case) Father. This is not the same as the Son/Father, but is the Father of the Son/Father of creation. He is the one that is the literal spiritual father of the Son, and the literal Father of his physical body. It isn't in violation of the natural laws, but a higher manifestation of those laws that enabled him to be the Father of the Son. Hence the Son is also the called the Son because he is the Son of the Father. This is the Father of Jehovah. Many call him by Elohim. Elohim actually is plural rather than singular however, which would seem to indicate a council of multiples of Deity. However, in regards to a name, many call the Father of Jehovah by this title or name. There are singular titles I suppose we could use, but beyond that name we are unsure what the actual name of the Father is except for Father.

In regards to the Ressurected or Celestial bodies, they are Spirit, but they are also Flesh. In otherwords, they are Flesh and bones (no blood from what I gather). Instead of Blood, you have spirit that is the basis of it. That could create some interesting conjecture (as 80% of the body is water...which is what blood is mostly, if there is no blood it is possible there is no water and hence...that 80% would be spirit?).

How's that for comprehension of the concept?

This differs greatly in Then the idea of the Trinity in that whilst the Trinity supports the idea of a Father/Son aspect in regards to creation and condescension, it does not support the idea that the Father/Son also have a Father. It also differs in the idea of what the Ressurection consists of.

Stahura wrote:The wording used to describe the Holy Ghost in D&C and the wording used to describe the Father is the same in LoF.

"The Father being a personage of spirit,"
"Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit"

This is why it's confusing. I get what you're saying though.

It's confusing because we were raised to see it as later general authorities see it and not as Joseph Smith taught it. The 1921 committee didn't get it. But you see, we are all spirit, but some of us have been "added upon." Some kept their first estate, some didn't. When we die, our tabernacles of flesh will become dust again with the earth, but when we resurrect, we will receive glory, power, fulness, etc. being joint heirs with Christ. Of course, others have been added upon even more glory, power, "possessing all perfection and fulness." -- LoF 5.

marc wrote:

Stahura wrote:The wording used to describe the Holy Ghost in D&C and the wording used to describe the Father is the same in LoF.

"The Father being a personage of spirit,"
"Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit"

This is why it's confusing. I get what you're saying though.

It's confusing because we were raised to see it as later general authorities see it and not as Joseph Smith taught it. The 1921 committee didn't get it. But you see, we are all spirit, but some of us have been "added upon." Some kept their first estate, some didn't. When we die, our tabernacles of flesh will become dust again with the earth, but when we resurrect, we will receive glory, power, fulness, etc. being joint heirs with Christ. Of course, others have been added upon even more glory, power, "possessing all perfection and fulness." -- LoF 5.

Hm..
Perhaps this can help me understand even better.

Can you explain the difference between The Father's body, and the body of someone who is currently in the world of Spirits?