Does a man automatically receive certain powers at his Ordination?

[Zathura]

Is it basic Church belief that a man automatically receives certain gifts and powers the moment he is ordained as a Bishop, Stake President, Seventy, or Apostle?
If one day a man has never had a revelation in his life, and the next is ordained as an Apostle, can he immediately prophesy for the entire world of future catastrophes? Can he immediately translate ancient records?
If another man has never had a particularly powerful spiritual experience and is called and ordained as a Bishop, does he automatically receive power to receive revelation about everybody in his ward and prophesy concerning his own ward as a direct result of his ordination?

[rewcox]

Is it basic Church belief that a man automatically receives certain gifts and powers the moment he is ordained as a Bishop, Stake President, Seventy, or Apostle?
If one day a man has never had a revelation in his life, and the next is ordained as an Apostle, can he immediately prophesy for the entire world of future catastrophes? Can he immediately translate ancient records?
If another man has never had a particularly powerful spiritual experience and is called and ordained as a Bishop, does he automatically receive power to receive revelation about everybody in his ward and prophesy concerning his own ward as a direct result of his ordination?

Where is all this coming from Stahura.

Have you considered the years of experience the 3 new apostles had before they became apostles?

[Zathura]

Is it basic Church belief that a man automatically receives certain gifts and powers the moment he is ordained as a Bishop, Stake President, Seventy, or Apostle?
If one day a man has never had a revelation in his life, and the next is ordained as an Apostle, can he immediately prophesy for the entire world of future catastrophes? Can he immediately translate ancient records?
If another man has never had a particularly powerful spiritual experience and is called and ordained as a Bishop, does he automatically receive power to receive revelation about everybody in his ward and prophesy concerning his own ward as a direct result of his ordination?

Where is all this coming from Stahura.

Have you considered the years of experience the 3 new apostles had before they became apostles?

I'm not asking about men who already received Gifts and Power from on high before ordination, because that can happen, and has happened, and does happen. That doesn't need to be discussed because it's already clear. They became prophets before their ordination.

I'm talking about the situations in which men who haven't had any experiences with God or received any power from on high(this has happened, can happen, and does happen), who can't be prophets at the moment that they are ordained.
Do these men automatically become prophets and receive power at the moment of their ordination?

[rewcox]

I have in my callings.

Is it basic Church belief that a man automatically receives certain gifts and powers the moment he is ordained as a Bishop, Stake President, Seventy, or Apostle?
If one day a man has never had a revelation in his life, and the next is ordained as an Apostle, can he immediately prophesy for the entire world of future catastrophes? Can he immediately translate ancient records?
If another man has never had a particularly powerful spiritual experience and is called and ordained as a Bishop, does he automatically receive power to receive revelation about everybody in his ward and prophesy concerning his own ward as a direct result of his ordination?

Where is all this coming from Stahura.

Have you considered the years of experience the 3 new apostles had before they became apostles?

I'm not asking about men who already received Gifts and Power from on high before ordination, because that can happen, and has happened, and does happen. That doesn't need to be discussed because it's already clear. They became prophets before their ordination.

I'm talking about the situations in which men who haven't had any experiences with God or received any power from on high(this has happened, can happen, and does happen), who can't be prophets at the moment that they are ordained.
Do these men automatically become prophets and receive power at the moment of their ordination?

[Zathura]

Is it basic Church belief that a man automatically receives certain gifts and powers the moment he is ordained as a Bishop, Stake President, Seventy, or Apostle?
If one day a man has never had a revelation in his life, and the next is ordained as an Apostle, can he immediately prophesy for the entire world of future catastrophes? Can he immediately translate ancient records?
If another man has never had a particularly powerful spiritual experience and is called and ordained as a Bishop, does he automatically receive power to receive revelation about everybody in his ward and prophesy concerning his own ward as a direct result of his ordination?

Where is all this coming from Stahura.

Have you considered the years of experience the 3 new apostles had before they became apostles?

Rewcox, take note.

I did not state my opinion. I only asked questions to see what everyone has to say.

If your answer is yes to all the questions, say yes and move on! If you have something to add, add! That's all I want.

[Zathura]

I have in my callings.

Perfect! Just the response I'm looking for.

When you were ordained, you immediately received power and gifts?

[Zathura]

Someone should post their quotes and scriptures that support the "mantle" teaching.

[h_p]

Ordained, or set apart? You're set apart to a calling, but ordained to an office in the priesthood.

[Dash jones]

I would say in the stuff I've read they, it depends on what keys they receive. They instantly receive the keys. Then it is a matter of whether they are enabled to use them or not (for example, I believe all the apostles get the same keys as the Prophet, but only the Prophet has the authority over them while alive).

Additional gifts of the spirit I think would be circumstantial. A Bishop in that light CAN receive revelation for the ward, if warranted, but it's not guaranteed he'll know anything and everything that's going on. In addition, it's something that he is not supposed to abuse. I'm a little bit more shaky on this, but I think it may be that certain things he couldn't abuse even if he wanted to (getting a revelation that allows him to blackmail someone for example...probably not going to happen from LDS teachings, but he could make something up and claim it instead if he were trying to abuse his authority as a Bishop).

Normally they have the ability to receive things in regards to their stewardships, that doesn't mean they receive everything and anything. At least that's what I've read in regards to this idea of gifts and authority given to someone when they receive a calling in the LDS church.

[iWriteStuff]

If I used a key every hour of every day for a year, I'd probably wear it out. Poor comparison, sure, but you get the idea. It's not a non-stop 24/7 deal. The worthiness requirement is, so that one can use said key, but I don't believe there's an expectation that one be turning the key every waking moment.

Perhaps it suffices to say they have the keys and can use them when moved upon by the Spirit to do so. The ordination bestows the keys, worthiness facilitates the Spirit, the Spirit enables their use.

My $.02

[Zathura]

If I used a key every hour of every day for a year, I'd probably wear it out. Poor comparison, sure, but you get the idea. It's not a non-stop 24/7 deal. The worthiness requirement is, so that one can use said key, but I don't believe there's an expectation that one be turning the key every waking moment.

Perhaps it suffices to say they have the keys and can use them when moved upon by the Spirit to do so. The ordination bestows the keys, worthiness facilitates the Spirit, the Spirit enables their use.

My $.02

So, I'm gonna play the devil's advocate :ymdevil: just for the sake of discussion.. When there have been catastrophes like the Holocaust, The Church leaders at that time had the keys, but that apparently wasn't a time for the Spirit to enable/facilitate their use? And therefore there was no prophecy or warning of these catastrophes?

[Zathura]

I would say in the stuff I've read they, it depends on what keys they receive. They instantly receive the keys. Then it is a matter of whether they are enabled to use them or not (for example, I believe all the apostles get the same keys as the Prophet, but only the Prophet has the authority over them while alive).

Additional gifts of the spirit I think would be circumstantial. A Bishop in that light CAN receive revelation for the ward, if warranted, but it's not guaranteed he'll know anything and everything that's going on. In addition, it's something that he is not supposed to abuse. I'm a little bit more shaky on this, but I think it may be that certain things he couldn't abuse even if he wanted to (getting a revelation that allows him to blackmail someone for example...probably not going to happen from LDS teachings, but he could make something up and claim it instead if he were trying to abuse his authority as a Bishop).

Normally they have the ability to receive things in regards to their stewardships, that doesn't mean they receive everything and anything. At least that's what I've read in regards to this idea of gifts and authority given to someone when they receive a calling in the LDS church.

So you're a Catholic who knows more about the LDS church than most LDS people, and you talk about these keys in the same manner as a Mormon would. Very interesting

Great input by the way. This is the exact type of feedback I am hoping for in this thread.

[Dash jones]

I suppose I'll take that as a compliment?

If anything it's due to extensive reading and questioning in regards to LDS theology and religion. Instead of simply accepting the tracts that I get from Mormons and Anti-Mormons, I prefer to go to the source of the material. I've read the journal of discourses, I've read Joseph F Smith's works, I've read Bruce R. McKonkie.

I would say in regards to Mormonism, I'd be almost as much an expert as many who get degrees in divinity in regards to the subject (of course, if you think I know a lot, you may actually be surprised at how much some of the Catholic Experts on Mormonism would be able to tell you). I'm still at a loss in several areas though...most of which either Mormons refuse to discuss (or I suppose, perhaps they don't know themselves?), and which most of the time the Missionaries I've asked won't really delve into those matters. They normally want to stick more to the basics and bear testimony then to delve into many of the questions I have.

In all honesty, I should also add, google is your friend. I will admit I DO google things at times, and even today have googled a few items which I then posted here.

[Stacy Oliver]

Someone should post their quotes and scriptures that support the "mantle" teaching.

12 ¶And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.

13 He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of Jordan;

14 And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and smote the waters, and said, Where is the Lord God of Elijah? and when he also had smitten the waters, they parted hither and thither: and Elisha went over.

15 And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him.

[Zathura]

Someone should post their quotes and scriptures that support the "mantle" teaching.

12 ¶And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.

13 He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of Jordan;

14 And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and smote the waters, and said, Where is the Lord God of Elijah? and when he also had smitten the waters, they parted hither and thither: and Elisha went over.

15 And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him.

Any others?

[Zathura]

I suppose I'll take that as a compliment?

If anything it's due to extensive reading and questioning in regards to LDS theology and religion. Instead of simply accepting the tracts that I get from Mormons and Anti-Mormons, I prefer to go to the source of the material. I've read the journal of discourses, I've read Joseph F Smith's works, I've read Bruce R. McKonkie.

I would say in regards to Mormonism, I'd be almost as much an expert as many who get degrees in divinity in regards to the subject (of course, if you think I know a lot, you may actually be surprised at how much some of the Catholic Experts on Mormonism would be able to tell you). I'm still at a loss in several areas though...most of which either Mormons refuse to discuss (or I suppose, perhaps they don't know themselves?), and which most of the time the Missionaries I've asked won't really delve into those matters. They normally want to stick more to the basics and bear testimony then to delve into many of the questions I have.

In all honesty, I should also add, google is your friend. I will admit I DO google things at times, and even today have googled a few items which I then posted here.

The Missionaries won't delve into those matters because they most likely do not know anything that Preach My Gospel doesn't talk about. Very few missionaries are aware of anything outside of what Preach My Gospel teaches.

Have any of the teachings of Mormonism that you have studied caused you to realize any false traditions/teachings in your life(If there are any) and helped you for the better?

[iWriteStuff]

If I used a key every hour of every day for a year, I'd probably wear it out. Poor comparison, sure, but you get the idea. It's not a non-stop 24/7 deal. The worthiness requirement is, so that one can use said key, but I don't believe there's an expectation that one be turning the key every waking moment.

Perhaps it suffices to say they have the keys and can use them when moved upon by the Spirit to do so. The ordination bestows the keys, worthiness facilitates the Spirit, the Spirit enables their use.

My $.02

So, I'm gonna play the devil's advocate :ymdevil: just for the sake of discussion.. When there have been catastrophes like the Holocaust, The Church leaders at that time had the keys, but that apparently wasn't a time for the Spirit to enable/facilitate their use? And therefore there was no prophecy or warning of these catastrophes?

Better yet, why didn't President Hinckley prophesy about 9/11?????? Inquiring minds want to know....

#-o

[Dash jones]

I suppose I'll take that as a compliment?

If anything it's due to extensive reading and questioning in regards to LDS theology and religion. Instead of simply accepting the tracts that I get from Mormons and Anti-Mormons, I prefer to go to the source of the material. I've read the journal of discourses, I've read Joseph F Smith's works, I've read Bruce R. McKonkie.

I would say in regards to Mormonism, I'd be almost as much an expert as many who get degrees in divinity in regards to the subject (of course, if you think I know a lot, you may actually be surprised at how much some of the Catholic Experts on Mormonism would be able to tell you). I'm still at a loss in several areas though...most of which either Mormons refuse to discuss (or I suppose, perhaps they don't know themselves?), and which most of the time the Missionaries I've asked won't really delve into those matters. They normally want to stick more to the basics and bear testimony then to delve into many of the questions I have.

In all honesty, I should also add, google is your friend. I will admit I DO google things at times, and even today have googled a few items which I then posted here.

The Missionaries won't delve into those matters because they most likely do not know anything that Preach My Gospel doesn't talk about. Very few missionaries are aware of anything outside of what Preach My Gospel teaches.

Have any of the teachings of Mormonism that you have studied caused you to realize any false traditions/teachings in your life(If there are any) and helped you for the better?

I can't say I've really thought about it in great detail anymore than other items I delve into. Once again, not meaning any offenses towards anyone, but just like others delve into mythology (which I also do), Greek and Roman history (Which I do), I have Mormonism as a hobby of mine. I can't say I've reflected on it in that light anymore than one would in regards to Mythology or other religions. I try to be respectful of it, and try to be towards all religions (the one I think I've gotten the most flack about actually isn't Mormonism, but scientology, which is pretty fascinating as well, but not quite as in depth as Mormonism and doesn't quite have as extensive a history yet).

I suppose if anything, it's helped solidify my own belief system?

I suppose if anything I can find parallels in what is occurring within the LDS church and the Catholic church. I currently see the Catholic church as probably being a tad more stalwart in keeping in line with it's stricter beliefs (which overall can be stricter in some areas in regards to birth control, abortion, and divorce) than the LDS church has, even if many members are not adhering directly to those beliefs. I find myself less judgemental of other religions and more willing to accept that there are valid reasons others have for believing as they do. I've found my distaste of religious hate groups rather disturbing and I rather dislike those who participate in those specifically to tear down a religion and others instead of actually helping build something else up.

I'm actually particularly bothered these days in regards to how Scientology is treated by the media and the world, and how many of the more radical elements of Islam are focused on rather than the more moderate groups (Islam itself is another religion that has many more sects than people would think, and many of them also allow Polygamy. It's a fascinating study if you compare the evolution of LDS polygamy vs. Muslim polygamy, and wonder how attitudes could be very different among many Mormons if their main group were located in areas that were not so influenced by Western Culture).

But I suppose as it's more a hobby of mine, in many ways I deal with it in the same way (though I may be a bit more fanatical about reading up on the hobby than many others).

I know how it's helped me for the better. There are some books that my cousin introduced me to. The Book of Mormon was one of them and was the start of my fascination with Mormonism. One of the reasons I'm skeptical of the idea of feelings that many members push is probably due to this. The books were all great, fascinating reads. I DID feel something when reading the books. That includes the Book of Mormon. However, many of the other books I KNOW are works of fiction. How could the same feeling be in regards to works of fiction as something else...unless I couldn't truly trust that particular feeling in regards to telling truth. Rather, a better ideal was to compare it to the bible and the religion which I knew had been around from the beginning (Catholicism). That said, I was inspired in my life to be a better person, to try to be more honest and straightforward as the characters in those particular books. I was inspired to do Good rather than evil.

In that light, it was deeply ingrained in me and has deeply influenced my life.

[Zathura]

I DID feel something when reading the books. That includes the Book of Mormon. However, many of the other books I KNOW are works of fiction. How could the same feeling be in regards to works of fiction as something else...unless I couldn't truly trust that particular feeling in regards to telling truth.

This is why me and others have said many times that there are many people that THINK they've received an answer by the power of the Holy Ghost when they haven't really, especially in regards to the BoM.
You can get that same feeling reading the BoM as you do when reading a fictional book, even a spiritism book because even though that feelings are nice and warm, it isn't the answer by the power of the Holy Ghost that we are supposed to receive to have a true answer.

Of course when I say this I'm always told that I'm just like Apostates and that this isn't true Mormon belief and blah blah etc, but I don't care what others say.

For years I thought I had received answers about the BoM until I received an actual answer, an actual revelation that blew my previous "answer" way out of the water.
For years I thought I "knew" Jesus was my Savior until I was born of God and realized that I didn't know anything beforehand.

Trust me when I say, the answer you should look for in regards to anything will be powerful, and you will not be mistaken about what this experience is. You will not have to wonder if you can trust that feeling, because it'll be a true answer by the power of God, not just a warm fuzzy feeling. It may be something you've never experienced. It may be similar to something you've experience a select few times, but it will be powerful.
Then at that point, that new answer is the bar by which you measure all other answers, and you can trust that bar.

[rewcox]

Of course when I say this I'm always told that I'm just like Apostates and that this isn't true Mormon belief and blah blah etc, but I don't care what others say.

It's the other stuff you say, like today.

[Zathura]

Of course when I say this I'm always told that I'm just like Apostates and that this isn't true Mormon belief and blah blah etc, but I don't care what others say.

It's the other stuff you say, like today.

Meh.
The Pastor told Joseph that God doesn't speak to men in visions anymore. Didn't change a thing.
Joseph said on more than one occasion that he knew things that he couldn't share because even the 12 apostles would "accuse him of blasphemy and seek to kill him."
There are simply truths that we will not want to accept, and Joseph made that clear, and for this reason he didn't share all that was revealed.

I know what God has given me,it is written in heaven, and he knows it. I won't deny it. Your intentions may be good, and you have good desires, but you're incorrect when you suggest that I have not been born of God and that I don't speak according to the Spirit. Just as surely as Joseph knew that he saw God, I know that I have been born of God, and have received knowledge from time to time concerning a few things.

It does not matter what any human being teaches you, or what your earthly mind believes. Things must be learned spiritually, and discerned spiritually.
Knowing a plethora of quotes and verses does nothing for you without spiritual knowledge.
1 Corinthians 2:12-14
12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual
14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15. But he that is spiritual judgeth[Greek: Examine, Try(taste)] all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ
We have the mind of Christ, which IS the Spirit of God. Will you condemn and judge that which has been revealed by the Spirit of God? The Natural Man will say the things of God are foolish. The Spiritual man will find the things of God are delicious.

[rewcox]

Of course when I say this I'm always told that I'm just like Apostates and that this isn't true Mormon belief and blah blah etc, but I don't care what others say.

It's the other stuff you say, like today.

Meh.
The Pastor told Joseph that God doesn't speak to men in visions anymore. Didn't change a thing.
Joseph said on more than one occasion that he knew things that he couldn't share because even the 12 apostles would "accuse him of blasphemy and seek to kill him."
There are simply truths that we will not want to accept, and Joseph made that clear, and for this reason he didn't share all that was revealed.

I know what God has given me,it is written in heaven, and he knows it. I won't deny it. Your intentions may be good, and you have good desires, but you're incorrect when you suggest that I have not been born of God and that I don't speak according to the Spirit. Just as surely as Joseph knew that he saw God, I know that I have been born of God, and have received knowledge from time to time concerning a few things.

It does not matter what any human being teaches you, or what your earthly mind believes. Things must be learned spiritually, and discerned spiritually.
Knowing a plethora of quotes and verses does nothing for you without spiritual knowledge.
1 Corinthians 2:12-14
12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual
14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15. But he that is spiritual judgeth[Greek: Examine, Try(taste)] all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ
We have the mind of Christ, which IS the Spirit of God. Will you condemn and judge that which has been revealed by the Spirit of God? The Natural Man will say the things of God are foolish. The Spiritual man will find the things of God are delicious.

What you have said today is not consistent with the spirit. Denver and others have said similar things. The spirit doesn't fight against the church.

[Zathura]

What you have said today is not consistent with the spirit. Denver and others have said similar things. The spirit doesn't fight against the church.

You claim an awful lot to know what the spirit does and doesn't do.

Denver Snuffer claims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. So do you rewcox, goodness does that mean you are apostate?

[Zathura]

What you have said today is not consistent with the spirit. Denver and others have said similar things. The spirit doesn't fight against the church.

When someone (whorarely speaks of the Spirit, and of receiving knowledge by the Holy Ghost, and who has never even used the Holy Ghost as a reason for his/her beliefs, but instead just posts quote after quote) tries to tell me what the Spirit does and doesn't do, how can I take that person seriously? How do you know what the Spirit does and doesn't do? Are you an authority on the things that the Spirit does? Do you dictate what the Spirit does?
Is God limited in what he can teach us through the Spirit?

[rewcox]

What you have said today is not consistent with the spirit. Denver and others have said similar things. The spirit doesn't fight against the church.

You claim an awful lot to know what the spirit does and doesn't do.

Denver Snuffer claims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. So do you rewcox, goodness does that mean you are apostate?

Listen to what you are saying. If you are filled with the peace of the spirit, you wouldn't say that.

The people of King Benjamin had no disposition to do evil.

You really sound like BofM today.