Is polygamy the New and everlasting covenant?

[deep water]

While discussing sec. 132 and polygamy we might as well discuss the new and everlasting covenant, polygamy. We are under condemnation until we remember BOM and the New covenant, now called the new and everlasting covenant, which is polygamy. What say yea?

[deep water]

Is there no one willing to discuss this?

[Robin Hood]

While discussing sec. 132 and polygamy we might as well discuss the new and everlasting covenant, polygamy. We are under condemnation until we remember BOM and the New covenant, now called the new and everlasting covenant, which is polygamy. What say yea?

No.

[deep water]

Why, is it not important? Do not care? Why?

[deep water]

Ok I will start. The New Covenant spoken about in section 84"57-58 given September 22 and 23 1832
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—
58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.
The new covenant is; I will be your God, if you will be my people. Demonstrated many times in the BOM.


The new and everlasting Sec 132:1-4 Recorded July 12 1843, Said to have been received in 1831 by Joseph. However the first mentioning of a new and everlasting covenant was mentioned in sec 22 in 1830 and it says that the Gate is the new and everlasting covenant, the same gate that Nephi identified in 2 Nephi.
Sec 132 1:4
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines—
2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.
3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.
4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.
D&C 22:1
1 Behold, I say unto you that all old covenants have I caused to be done away in this thing; and this is a new and an everlasting covenant, even that which was from the beginning.

D&C 22:1-4
1 Behold, I say unto you that all old covenants have I caused to be done away in this thing; and this is a new and an everlasting covenant, even that which was from the beginning.
2 Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works.
3 For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old.
4 Wherefore, enter ye in at the gate, as I have commanded, and seek not to counsel your God. Amen.
3 Nephi 14:13
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate; for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, which leadeth to destruction, and many there be who go in thereat;
Jacob 6:11
11 O then, my beloved brethren, repent ye, and enter in at the strait gate, and continue in the way which is narrow, until ye shall obtain eternal life.
2 Nephi 31:17
17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.
3 Nephi 27:33
33 And it came to pass that when Jesus had ended these sayings he said unto his disciples: Enter ye in at the strait gate; for strait is the gate, and narrow is the way that leads to life, and few there be that find it; but wide is the gate, and broad the way which leads to death, and many there be that travel therein, until the night cometh, wherein no man can work.
2 Nephi 31:9
9 And again, it showeth unto the children of men the straitness of the path, and the narrowness of the gate, by which they should enter, he having set the example before them.
2 Nephi 31:18
18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.
2 Nephi 33:9
9 I also have charity for the Gentiles. But behold, for none of these can I hope except they shall be reconciled unto Christ, and enter into the narrow gate, and walk in the strait path which leads to life, and continue in the path until the end of the day of probation.

So in collusion you either believe sec 132 or you believe the BOM, I see no other choice.

[Zathura]

This topic seems so broad and confusing that I don't know what to say about it. I don't know enough to contribute.

[Sarah]

Everyone needs to be sealed to a spouse, and that is part of the new and everlasting covenant, the marriage sealing of husband and wife. So yes, I think everyone agrees it is important, and essential to exaltation. I also believe that individuals will need to agree to live the plurality principle if they want to progress and keep the covenant for eternity. Right now we are living a lower form of the law of husband/wife sealings.

The church was kicked out of Missouri, it's place of inheritance, for not obeying the Celestial Law of Consecration among other things. I don't think we are under condemnation anymore than the children of Israel were for only living the lower laws. That was all the Lord required after they rejected the higher law Moses presented to them. It wouldn't have been appropriate for an off-shoot to start preaching that everyone abandon the lower law in favor of the higher law. That direction needs to come from the Lord and his anointed servant.

If members can live the Law of Consecration, they will be prepared to live the highest and most exalting form of the marriage covenant that includes a plurality. They will be able to share their spouses.

[Dash jones]

I have to admit, I'm not quite certain what is being discussed regarding Polygamy and the New and Everlasting covenant in the thread. If you could be more specific and precise in exactly what you are saying and what you are meaning.

I can take a stab...perhaps?

When googling the term LDS new and everlasting covenant (yes, I google a lot)...I get an article from the LDS site.

It is found here.

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and ... t?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In it, it states

The new and everlasting covenant is the fulness of the gospel. It is composed of ‘All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations’ that are sealed upon members of the Church by the Holy Spirit of promise, or the Holy Ghost, by the authority of the President of the Church who holds the keys. The President of the Church holds the keys of the Melchizedek Priesthood. He delegates authority to others and authorizes them to perform the sacred ordinances of the priesthood.

“Marriage for eternity is a new and everlasting covenant. Baptism is also a new and everlasting covenant, and likewise ordination to the priesthood, and every other covenant is everlasting and a part of the new and everlasting covenant which embraces all things.” (Answers to Gospel Questions, 1:65.)

What I get from that is that every covenant made by an LDS individual in the LDS church is part of this new Covenant, inclusive of the Marriage covevenant.

Now, when researching a little bit more, I recall at one time I read that there are several different types or orders of the priesthood in the LDS church. The highest being the Patriarchal priesthood. In order for one to be a member of this order of the priesthood, one needed to be Sealed to their spouse, or have a celestial marriage.

In many ways this I sreferred to in D&D 131.

1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

More research into this shows

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and ... n?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Elder George Q. Cannon taught: “We believe that when a man and woman are united as husband and wife, and they love each other, their hearts and feelings are one, that that love is as enduring as eternity itself, and that when death overtakes them it will neither extinguish nor cool that love, but that it will brighten and kindle it to a purer flame, and that it will endure through eternity; and that if we have offspring they will be with us and our mutual associations will be one of the chief joys of the heaven to which we are hastening. … God has restored the everlasting priesthood, by which ties can be formed, consecrated and consummated, which shall be as enduring as we ourselves are enduring, that is, as our spiritual nature; and husbands and wives will be united together, and they and their children will dwell and associate together eternally, and this, as I have said, will constitute one of the chief joys of heaven; and we look forward to it with delightful anticipations.” (In Journal of Discourses, 14:320–21; see also Notes and Commentary for D&C 22:1; 132:13–18.)

The explanatory phrase in brackets in verse 2 was inserted by Elder Orson Pratt, under the direction of President Brigham Young, when the section was added to the Doctrine and Covenants.

Now this last part is particularly interesting if I understand what you want to discuss.

I believe I've read that Brigham Young stated that one must be a polygamist in order to receive exaltation, or at least some attribute that to him. If we combine that with the last portion above, it would indeed indicate that perhaps Polygamy falls under the New and Everlasting covenant of marriage.

However...not everyone practiced polygamy, nor were they given more than one wife. However, this does not preclude them from receiving exaltation from what I gather during Brigham Young's time. I think it merely meant, and what Brigham Young meant is that one merely needs to accept the concepts and principles behind and and be willing to live as the Lord dictates within the confines of the New and Everlasting Covenant.

What is more, is that from what I gather (as I am NOT privy to such things...others probably would know more about the specific temple rites and such) is that the same ceremony for one wife (or the first) is the same for another (or second and subsequent wives). Therefore, the actual marriage is the same in detail, if not in number. Hence, it could be considered that one who is sealed to their spouse (s) in the LDS temple are therefore in a Celestial marriage but these may differ in the number of wives thereof, with some with one, others with two, others with other numbers.

But it is all the same type of marriage (with each marriage being it's own individual entity, so wives are NOT married to each other, each marriage is it's own unique thing). In that light, the marriage of polygamy and the singular marriage in the LDS church would actually be the same thing?

At least that would be my hypothesis. If there were actual differences in how those ceremonies are performed, I am unaware of it (though I also would not be one to know if they are as I'm actually not privy to the actual ceremony...just my hypothesis).

Does that touch upon what you are wishing to discuss?

[deep water]

No not realy. What i'm wanting to discuss is what is true doctrine and what is false doctrine. You will have to go back and reread the post ever closely to see the distinct differences of Doctrine.

[Melissa]

While discussing sec. 132 and polygamy we might as well discuss the new and everlasting covenant, polygamy. We are under condemnation until we remember BOM and the New covenant, now called the new and everlasting covenant, which is polygamy. What say yea?

The new and everlasting covenant actually includes any covenants made. It includes baptism. Look it up on lds.org

[Sarah]

I have to admit, I'm not quite certain what is being discussed regarding Polygamy and the New and Everlasting covenant in the thread. If you could be more specific and precise in exactly what you are saying and what you are meaning.

I can take a stab...perhaps?

When googling the term LDS new and everlasting covenant (yes, I google a lot)...I get an article from the LDS site.

It is found here.

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and ... t?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In it, it states

The new and everlasting covenant is the fulness of the gospel. It is composed of ‘All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations’ that are sealed upon members of the Church by the Holy Spirit of promise, or the Holy Ghost, by the authority of the President of the Church who holds the keys. The President of the Church holds the keys of the Melchizedek Priesthood. He delegates authority to others and authorizes them to perform the sacred ordinances of the priesthood.

“Marriage for eternity is a new and everlasting covenant. Baptism is also a new and everlasting covenant, and likewise ordination to the priesthood, and every other covenant is everlasting and a part of the new and everlasting covenant which embraces all things.” (Answers to Gospel Questions, 1:65.)

What I get from that is that every covenant made by an LDS individual in the LDS church is part of this new Covenant, inclusive of the Marriage covevenant.

Now, when researching a little bit more, I recall at one time I read that there are several different types or orders of the priesthood in the LDS church. The highest being the Patriarchal priesthood. In order for one to be a member of this order of the priesthood, one needed to be Sealed to their spouse, or have a celestial marriage.

In many ways this I sreferred to in D&D 131.

1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

More research into this shows

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and ... n?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Elder George Q. Cannon taught: “We believe that when a man and woman are united as husband and wife, and they love each other, their hearts and feelings are one, that that love is as enduring as eternity itself, and that when death overtakes them it will neither extinguish nor cool that love, but that it will brighten and kindle it to a purer flame, and that it will endure through eternity; and that if we have offspring they will be with us and our mutual associations will be one of the chief joys of the heaven to which we are hastening. … God has restored the everlasting priesthood, by which ties can be formed, consecrated and consummated, which shall be as enduring as we ourselves are enduring, that is, as our spiritual nature; and husbands and wives will be united together, and they and their children will dwell and associate together eternally, and this, as I have said, will constitute one of the chief joys of heaven; and we look forward to it with delightful anticipations.” (In Journal of Discourses, 14:320–21; see also Notes and Commentary for D&C 22:1; 132:13–18.)

The explanatory phrase in brackets in verse 2 was inserted by Elder Orson Pratt, under the direction of President Brigham Young, when the section was added to the Doctrine and Covenants.

Now this last part is particularly interesting if I understand what you want to discuss.

I believe I've read that Brigham Young stated that one must be a polygamist in order to receive exaltation, or at least some attribute that to him. If we combine that with the last portion above, it would indeed indicate that perhaps Polygamy falls under the New and Everlasting covenant of marriage.

However...not everyone practiced polygamy, nor were they given more than one wife. However, this does not preclude them from receiving exaltation from what I gather during Brigham Young's time. I think it merely meant, and what Brigham Young meant is that one merely needs to accept the concepts and principles behind and and be willing to live as the Lord dictates within the confines of the New and Everlasting Covenant.

What is more, is that from what I gather (as I am NOT privy to such things...others probably would know more about the specific temple rites and such) is that the same ceremony for one wife (or the first) is the same for another (or second and subsequent wives). Therefore, the actual marriage is the same in detail, if not in number. Hence, it could be considered that one who is sealed to their spouse (s) in the LDS temple are therefore in a Celestial marriage but these may differ in the number of wives thereof, with some with one, others with two, others with other numbers.

But it is all the same type of marriage (with each marriage being it's own individual entity, so wives are NOT married to each other, each marriage is it's own unique thing). In that light, the marriage of polygamy and the singular marriage in the LDS church would actually be the same thing?

At least that would be my hypothesis. If there were actual differences in how those ceremonies are performed, I am unaware of it (though I also would not be one to know if they are as I'm actually not privy to the actual ceremony...just my hypothesis).

Does that touch upon what you are wishing to discuss?

Good for you for doing your research and trying to understand it. I think we as members just assume we all know what we are talking about, but yes, the New and Everlasting Covenant does include all covenants and Priesthood ordinances that have been revealed to man in the latter-days. Some refer to it as the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage because that is the final ordinance and covenant required to inherit a Celestial Exaltation. Joseph, Brigham, and others also made comments that polygamy, or the plurality of wives as it was practiced, was necessary for the resurrection. Plurality of wives gives every woman an equal chance at having the sealing necessary for a Celestial resurrection to the highest degree. It is due to the nature of the Patriarchal order, that the man is able to receive more than one woman and be in essence, be like a savior, or vehicle providing the way to entering into her Celestial glory.

[deep water]

While discussing sec. 132 and polygamy we might as well discuss the new and everlasting covenant, polygamy. We are under condemnation until we remember BOM and the New covenant, now called the new and everlasting covenant, which is polygamy. What say yea?

The new and everlasting covenant actually includes any covenants made. It includes baptism. Look it up on lds.org

I do not take something as true, just because it is posted upon lds.org. I look at when It came about and by who and the context it came in. I, like Joseph Smith being a descendant of Joseph of old, through Ephram, I do not take teachings without questioning and searching. Why didn't Joseph just take the Bible word for word? Did God tell Joseph that the Bible was to be believed only as far as it was translated correctly, or did joseph find out upon his own that the bible and BoM read differant upon some gospel principles, and since he knew the BOM to be correct, needed to warn the masses that the Bible had misspoken messages? To just believe in man's words and not engage study and the HG, would be tying your salvation to man. Which is not recommended by God.

[Jason]

While discussing sec. 132 and polygamy we might as well discuss the new and everlasting covenant, polygamy. We are under condemnation until we remember BOM and the New covenant, now called the new and everlasting covenant, which is polygamy. What say yea?

The new and everlasting covenant actually includes any covenants made. It includes baptism. Look it up on lds.org

I do not take something as true, just because it is posted upon lds.org. I look at when It came about and by who and the context it came in. I, like Joseph Smith being a descendant of Joseph of old, through Ephram, I do not take teachings without questioning and searching. Why didn't Joseph just take the Bible word for word? Did God tell Joseph that the Bible was to be believed only as far as it was translated correctly, or did joseph find out upon his own that the bible and BoM read differant upon some gospel principles, and since he knew the BOM to be correct, needed to warn the masses that the Bible had misspoken messages? To just believe in man's words and not engage study and the HG, would be tying your salvation to man. Which is not recommended by God.

You have no authority...so it just comes down to opinions and personal interpretations. Nor do I.

Precisely the reason for establishment of church with priesthood keys and authority...so the house is a house of order.

[deep water]

While discussing sec. 132 and polygamy we might as well discuss the new and everlasting covenant, polygamy. We are under condemnation until we remember BOM and the New covenant, now called the new and everlasting covenant, which is polygamy. What say yea?

The new and everlasting covenant actually includes any covenants made. It includes baptism. Look it up on lds.org

I do not take something as true, just because it is posted upon lds.org. I look at when It came about and by who and the context it came in. I, like Joseph Smith being a descendant of Joseph of old, through Ephram, I do not take teachings without questioning and searching. Why didn't Joseph just take the Bible word for word? Did God tell Joseph that the Bible was to be believed only as far as it was translated correctly, or did joseph find out upon his own that the bible and BoM read differant upon some gospel principles, and since he knew the BOM to be correct, needed to warn the masses that the Bible had misspoken messages? To just believe in man's words and not engage study and the HG, would be tying your salvation to man. Which is not recommended by God.

You have no authority...so it just comes down to opinions and personal interpretations. Nor do I.

Precisely the reason for establishment of church with priesthood keys and authority...so the house is a house of order.

Will God stand behind truth or the authority of those He pronounced under Condemnation, and being under condemnation how is it that they are receiving God's word? Israel put to death, those who were receiving Gods word while they were cursed with the Law of Moses. Why do you think Gods way of doing things is different today?

[Jason]

That's where we have a difference of opinion regarding what is true and what is not...and I'll stick to my knowledge that you are taking that out of context as well as the confirmation of the Holy Spirit confirming the authority of church leadership down to my Bishop.

[deep water]

I would be careful who you are dragging into the mud pit with you, as you will be held accountable. Just saying.

[Melissa]

I would be careful who you are dragging into the mud pit with you, as you will be held accountable. Just saying.

I see why you call yourself "deep water"

You pose questions to test people and to tell them how they may be wrong. I have noticed this about many of your threads you start.

[butterfly]

No not realy. What i'm wanting to discuss is what is true doctrine and what is false doctrine.

It's an interesting comparison, the way the BOM describes the gate and the way it's described in the D&C.
So what is your opinion? Do you believe the D&C is in error?

[deep water]

Yes Melissa, I do. I have an understanding very different that of the mainstream. I am very confident and comfortable in my understandings and knowledge. My desire is to make people think and ask, those unwilling to think and ask receive unwanted understandings thrown at them. My hope is some will stick.

[deep water]

No not realy. What i'm wanting to discuss is what is true doctrine and what is false doctrine.

It's an interesting comparison, the way the BOM describes the gate and the way it's described in the D&C.
So what is your opinion? Do you believe the D&C is in error?

If the Lord and Joseph Smith both vouched for the BOM as the word of God and God pronounced the organization under condemnation until they repent and remember the New convenant and the BOM, accepting something taught different than the teachings found in the BOM would lead to disaster. The BOM never contradicts itself, but the ever changing doctrine, is ever changing, Yet many just explain it away as being a living organization. Who do you trust?.
The BOM was already in print and could not be changed without many questions. However the Book of Covenants was changed and revised and morphed into the Doctrine and Covenants. It could have been tampered with, even as late as the late 1800s.

[deep water]

How many of you that did not understand actually read this post???????????
Ok I will start. The New Covenant spoken about in section 84"57-58 given September 22 and 23 1832
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—
58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.
The new covenant is; I will be your God, if you will be my people. Demonstrated many times in the BOM.

The first mentioning of a New and Everlasting Covenant was mentioned in sec 22 in 1830 and it says that the Gate is the new and everlasting covenant, the same gate that Nephi identified in 2 Nephi.
D&C 22:1
1 Behold, I say unto you that all old covenants have I caused to be done away in this thing; and this is a new and an everlasting covenant, even that which was from the beginning.
2 Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works.
3 For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old.
4 Wherefore, enter ye in at the gate, as I have commanded, and seek not to counsel your God. Amen.

The New and Everlasting Covenant was changed from the Gate given in 1832 to plural marriage in Sec 132 1-4. Recorded July 12 1843, Said to have been received in 1831 by Joseph.
Sec 132 1-4
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines—
2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.
3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.
4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

Here are some more references that the GATE is the New and Everlasting Covenant, not plural marriage.
3 Nephi 14:13
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate; for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, which leadeth to destruction, and many there be who go in thereat;
Jacob 6:11
11 O then, my beloved brethren, repent ye, and enter in at the strait gate, and continue in the way which is narrow, until ye shall obtain eternal life.
2 Nephi 31:17
17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.
3 Nephi 27:33
33 And it came to pass that when Jesus had ended these sayings he said unto his disciples: Enter ye in at the strait gate; for strait is the gate, and narrow is the way that leads to life, and few there be that find it; but wide is the gate, and broad the way which leads to death, and many there be that travel therein, until the night cometh, wherein no man can work.
2 Nephi 31:9
9 And again, it showeth unto the children of men the straitness of the path, and the narrowness of the gate, by which they should enter, he having set the example before them.
2 Nephi 31:18
18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.
2 Nephi 33:9
9 I also have charity for the Gentiles. But behold, for none of these can I hope except they shall be reconciled unto Christ, and enter into the narrow gate, and walk in the strait path which leads to life, and continue in the path until the end of the day of probation.

So in collusion you either believe sec 132 or you believe the BOM, I see no other choice.

The Church may include all the covenants nowadays, to try and confuse or deflect the issue of the new and everlasting covenant being called polygamy, But that was not the case back in 1843.

[rewcox]

[quote="deep water]I, like Joseph Smith being a descendant of Joseph of old, through Ephram, I do not take teachings without questioning and searching.[/quote]

Since you question the church, you have no idea you are of Ephraim. Your patriarchal blessing would be worth less than the paper it is on.

[deep water]

[quote="deep water]I, like Joseph Smith being a descendant of Joseph of old, through Ephram, I do not take teachings without questioning and searching.

Since you question the church, you have no idea you are of Ephraim. Your patriarchal blessing would be worth less than the paper it is on.[/quote][/quote]

Please be carefull rewcox. If you will not be careful, I will quit communicating with you, as I do not want your downfall upon my conscience.

[rewcox]

[quote="deep water]I, like Joseph Smith being a descendant of Joseph of old, through Ephram, I do not take teachings without questioning and searching.

Since you question the church, you have no idea you are of Ephraim. Your patriarchal blessing would be worth less than the paper it is on.

[/quote]

Please be carefull rewcox. If you will not be careful, I will quit communicating with you, as I do not want your downfall upon my conscience.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

Threat? You need to worry about yourself. You are in open opposition to Christ's church and kingdom. That is not a good place to be.

[deep water]

I worry about all mankind.