Is polygamy the New and everlasting covenant?

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freedomforall
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Re: Is polygamy the New and everlasting covenant?

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?
Last edited by freedomforall on November 9th, 2015, 6:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Melissa
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Re: Is polygamy the New and everlasting covenant?

Post by Melissa »

Rachael wrote:I'm just a plain ole inbred from a stagnant gene pool in the South. So the best I can boast of is my Heavenly Father
I have never felt that polygamy in ancestry was something to boast about. Neither did I find coming from a notable early member being something to boast about.

Don't feel bad about coming from regular families in the south. I wish all my lines were regular. I do respect my ancestors as I respect anyone else. Just because one of my lines had polygamy in it, doesn't mean I respect them anymore than my family line from the dirt of Mississippi.

I honestly kind of hate dealing with polygamy family lines when doing ancestry work and research. Which it never happened.

Zathura
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Re: Is polygamy the New and everlasting covenant?

Post by Zathura »

rewcox wrote:Polygamy is not a sin if God authorizes it. See Abraham, Jacob, Moses, David, Soloman.
deep water wrote:Rewcox wrote; I don't believe Brigham Young was a sinner.

Could this be our difference rewcox. Could you please give some of the things you do believe are sins. And those things BY did but are not sins according to scripture.
Like is it not a sin to be unequal in things things?
Like is it immoral to marrying 14 year olds?
Like making whisky and drinking and selling it?
Like making a law restricting the art of liquor making to himself only?
Like making the Lords daughters to mourn and sorrow?
The difference is, It's not a sin If God GIVES a woman to you. Which is apparently what happened with Solomon, Abraham, and David. God gave specific women to them, for his own purposes that I'll never understand.

There is no record that God never GAVE women to Brigham. Brigham Young took them according to his desires, which doesn't seem lawful in the least bit, no matter what key's and position of power you hold.

Zathura
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Re: Is polygamy the New and everlasting covenant?

Post by Zathura »

Melissa wrote: ]

So what would be an example of God not approving of these men practicing polygamy? Would he destroy them?
Would he destroy them? Not if he had a mission for them.
I think a lack of revelation could be very telling.
Did Brigham Young need to be perfect in order for God to use him? Of course not.
In my most wicked moments in life, I can testify that God used me to help someone else.

We know of stories where Bishops, or Stake Presidents were committing adultery throughout their whole calling. Were they still able to perform their tasks? Yes. Were they able to everything a Stake President/Bishop is expected to do? Yes.
Perhaps the only thing thing that lacked was the Power of God. They could not enjoy the companionship of the Holy Ghost, and the gifts that come with it. They could not receive revelation, as revelation is given by the Spirit.
This would not stop them from performing their duties for the 3-6 years that they had these callings.
It wouldn't be any different for a General Authority. God can use whomever he pleases, if they are willing, no matter how fallen and weak they are.

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Melissa
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Re: Is polygamy the New and everlasting covenant?

Post by Melissa »

Stahura wrote:
rewcox wrote:Polygamy is not a sin if God authorizes it. See Abraham, Jacob, Moses, David, Soloman.
deep water wrote:Rewcox wrote; I don't believe Brigham Young was a sinner.

Could this be our difference rewcox. Could you please give some of the things you do believe are sins. And those things BY did but are not sins according to scripture.
Like is it not a sin to be unequal in things things?
Like is it immoral to marrying 14 year olds?
Like making whisky and drinking and selling it?
Like making a law restricting the art of liquor making to himself only?
Like making the Lords daughters to mourn and sorrow?
The difference is, It's not a sin If God GIVES a woman to you. Which is apparently what happened with Solomon, Abraham, and David. God gave specific women to them, for his own purposes that I'll never understand.

There is no record that God never GAVE women to Brigham. Brigham Young took them according to his desires, which doesn't seem lawful in the least bit, no matter what key's and position of power you hold.
Yes, and he took the fallen prophets wives. He said he would entertain any reasonable offer from other women to be his wife. Well, he was the prophet - the "highest" priesthood office -and back then they taught and believed that a woman can have guaranteed salvation by being seed to the highest priesthood man as possible. So all women should have wanted to be his wife.

I thought melchizedek priesthood was what all then men should have had that were of marrying age.

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Melissa
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Re: Is polygamy the New and everlasting covenant?

Post by Melissa »

Stahura wrote:
Melissa wrote: ]

So what would be an example of God not approving of these men practicing polygamy? Would he destroy them?
Would he destroy them? Not if he had a mission for them.
I think a lack of revelation could be very telling.
Did Brigham Young need to be perfect in order for God to use him? Of course not.
In my most wicked moments in life, I can testify that God used me to help someone else.

We know of stories where Bishops, or Stake Presidents were committing adultery throughout their whole calling. Were they still able to perform their tasks? Yes. Were they able to everything a Stake President/Bishop is expected to do? Yes.
Perhaps the only thing thing that lacked was the Power of God. They could not enjoy the companionship of the Holy Ghost, and the gifts that come with it. They could not receive revelation, as revelation is given by the Spirit.
This would not stop them from performing their duties for the 3-6 years that they had these callings.
It wouldn't be any different for a General Authority. God can use whomever he pleases, if they are willing, no matter how fallen and weak they are.
That is true and that is what my point was.

freedomforall
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Re: Is polygamy the New and everlasting covenant?

Post by freedomforall »

Melissa wrote:
Rachael wrote:I'm just a plain ole inbred from a stagnant gene pool in the South. So the best I can boast of is my Heavenly Father
I have never felt that polygamy in ancestry was something to boast about. Neither did I find coming from a notable early member being something to boast about.

Don't feel bad about coming from regular families in the south. I wish all my lines were regular. I do respect my ancestors as I respect anyone else. Just because one of my lines had polygamy in it, doesn't mean I respect them anymore than my family line from the dirt of Mississippi.

I honestly kind of hate dealing with polygamy family lines when doing ancestry work and research. Which it never happened.
I just don't let my past dictate my future. I agree that Rachael needs to be pleased with her own background. I have a black friend who was raised in Shreveport Louisiana, and I listened intently to his life's stories from childhood.
When I was born my parents lived on a street called Clayton Court in Salt Lake. The street no longer exists since the fifties, I suppose. I think Cross Roads Mall was built right over the top of it later on.

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rewcox
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Re: Is polygamy the New and everlasting covenant?

Post by rewcox »

Well, Saul wasn't obedient, so David took over.

David had hundreds of wives, but he took Uriah's.

So I think your philosophy of the Lord using wicked people is extremely flawed.
Stahura wrote:
Melissa wrote: ]

So what would be an example of God not approving of these men practicing polygamy? Would he destroy them?
Would he destroy them? Not if he had a mission for them.
I think a lack of revelation could be very telling.
Did Brigham Young need to be perfect in order for God to use him? Of course not.
In my most wicked moments in life, I can testify that God used me to help someone else.

We know of stories where Bishops, or Stake Presidents were committing adultery throughout their whole calling. Were they still able to perform their tasks? Yes. Were they able to everything a Stake President/Bishop is expected to do? Yes.
Perhaps the only thing thing that lacked was the Power of God. They could not enjoy the companionship of the Holy Ghost, and the gifts that come with it. They could not receive revelation, as revelation is given by the Spirit.
This would not stop them from performing their duties for the 3-6 years that they had these callings.
It wouldn't be any different for a General Authority. God can use whomever he pleases, if they are willing, no matter how fallen and weak they are.

Zathura
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Re: Is polygamy the New and everlasting covenant?

Post by Zathura »

rewcox wrote:Well, Saul wasn't obedient, so David took over.

David had hundreds of wives, but he took Uriah's.

So I think your philosophy of the Lord using wicked people is extremely flawed.
Stahura wrote:
Melissa wrote: ]

So what would be an example of God not approving of these men practicing polygamy? Would he destroy them?
Would he destroy them? Not if he had a mission for them.
I think a lack of revelation could be very telling.
Did Brigham Young need to be perfect in order for God to use him? Of course not.
In my most wicked moments in life, I can testify that God used me to help someone else.

We know of stories where Bishops, or Stake Presidents were committing adultery throughout their whole calling. Were they still able to perform their tasks? Yes. Were they able to everything a Stake President/Bishop is expected to do? Yes.
Perhaps the only thing thing that lacked was the Power of God. They could not enjoy the companionship of the Holy Ghost, and the gifts that come with it. They could not receive revelation, as revelation is given by the Spirit.
This would not stop them from performing their duties for the 3-6 years that they had these callings.
It wouldn't be any different for a General Authority. God can use whomever he pleases, if they are willing, no matter how fallen and weak they are.
You give one example , Saul, and I know of 10's of stories of Bishops, Stake Presidents,and other leaders.

Have you ever admitted when you were wrong ? Just wondering.
Have you ever considered another point of view?
I rather enjoy seeing how you respond to everything. It's impressive how you manage to always have a response :)

Zathura
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Re: Is polygamy the New and everlasting covenant?

Post by Zathura »

rewcox wrote:Well, Saul wasn't obedient, so David took over.

David had hundreds of wives, but he took Uriah's.

So I think your philosophy of the Lord using wicked people is extremely flawed.
Also ,what point are you making about David taking Uriah's wife?
That actually proves what I'm saying correct. I don't understand your thinking. He never sinned in having other wives because God gave them to him. God did not give Uriah's wife to David, and in taking her, David sinned.

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Rachael
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Re: Is polygamy the New and everlasting covenant?

Post by Rachael »

freedomforall wrote:?
I saw before you deleted. I lived in one similar to the orange and white one, but it was on the ground floor. There is a colonial mansion ~40miles from here that bears a striking resemblance. I have been to your grandpappy's house in Nauvoo

freedomforall
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Re: Is polygamy the New and everlasting covenant?

Post by freedomforall »

Rachael wrote:
freedomforall wrote:?
I saw before you deleted. I lived in one similar to the orange and white one, but it was on the ground floor. There is a colonial mansion ~40miles from here that bears a striking resemblance. I have been to your grandpappy's house in Nauvoo
I deleted the post because it seemed to be more insulting than humorous. I was attempting to be funny but even I didn't think it was going to go over as a joke.

Anyway, I have been to that home as well. I have also been to his grave site in Salt Lake Cemetery.
woodrufwilford.jpg
woodrufwilford.jpg (31.99 KiB) Viewed 1120 times
Here is my Great-great grandmother, Sarah Brown, fourth wife to Wilford.
Woodruff Sarah Brown.jpg
Woodruff Sarah Brown.jpg (10.45 KiB) Viewed 1115 times

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Rachael
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Re: Is polygamy the New and everlasting covenant?

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I used to have that trailer park pic as my screen saver. I think it is fabulous
Edit: wall paper
Last edited by Rachael on November 10th, 2015, 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rachael
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Re: Is polygamy the New and everlasting covenant?

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She is pretty.

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Rachael
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Re: Is polygamy the New and everlasting covenant?

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you will have to try harder to offend me :)

deep water
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Re: Is polygamy the New and everlasting covenant?

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Out of all the people posting here, I didn't read one post that answered the original question. Again is polygamy the New and Everlasting Covenant, As stated in sec 132????? Section 132 specifically states that having more than one wife is the New and Everlasting Covenant. I have seen where some have tried to redefine the New and Everlasting covenant, but I have not seen one person come forth and defend the words that are printed in 132 as an revelation from God.

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Re: Is polygamy the New and everlasting covenant?

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I would say the answer is no. Plural marriage is not the "new and everlasting covenant". Celestial marriage is the new and everlasting covenant being referred to in D&C 132, although it doesn't use the term "celestial" but makes reference to a man and a woman being married and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. D&C 132 gives allowance for plural marriage but plural marriage is not the new and everlasting covenant. The covenant is described more so in the earlier versus of that section, plural marriage is described later on in the section. It does mention a man could marry multiple women in the new and everlasting covenant but I believe a man could be sealed to only one woman and they would still be entering into the "new and everlasting covenant".

Also, there is a focus in that section about the law.. the law being that you do as commanded by the Lord and receive that which is given to you by the Lord.. and do no other thing except for that which is commanded.

freedomforall
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Re: Is polygamy the New and everlasting covenant?

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Rachael wrote:you will have to try harder to offend me :)
Give me a hint. ;) :D

Only kidding! :ymhug:

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marc
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Re: Is polygamy the New and everlasting covenant?

Post by marc »

Joseph Smith stated this ONE MONTH before he was killed.
What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers. --
Joseph Smith, May 1844; History of the Church Vol 6 pg 411.
I believe Joseph. I stand with him.

deep water
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Re: Is polygamy the New and everlasting covenant?

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BrianM wrote:I would say the answer is no. Plural marriage is not the "new and everlasting covenant". Celestial marriage is the new and everlasting covenant being referred to in D&C 132, although it doesn't use the term "celestial" but makes reference to a man and a woman being married and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. D&C 132 gives allowance for plural marriage but plural marriage is not the new and everlasting covenant. The covenant is described more so in the earlier versus of that section, plural marriage is described later on in the section. It does mention a man could marry multiple women in the new and everlasting covenant but I believe a man could be sealed to only one woman and they would still be entering into the "new and everlasting covenant".

Also, there is a focus in that section about the law.. the law being that you do as commanded by the Lord and receive that which is given to you by the Lord.. and do no other thing except for that which is commanded.
Are we reading the same Sec 132 Brian?
Doctrine and Covenants 132:1
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines

First let's look at the word justified= an act, claim or statement ect., that is just or right,
BOM's description of polygamy= An abomination=a vile, shameful, or detestable action, condition, habit ect.. So the first thing we notice is that the Lord has changed his mind and what was once a vile, shameful, or detestable action, condition, habit ect, is now just or right. We now have two directly opposing doctrines, both stating that the Lord was the author of both. Yet the lord also states that he is not the author of confusion, and if anything is added to or taken from his self professed Gospel, we can know that it is not from HIM. (# Nephi Ch 11) Some will bring up Nephi slaying Laban, as an opposing doctrines to justify the opposing doctrines above.,Christ is not the author of confusion, and He explained to Nephi and therefore us, why He had Laban killed. I see no such explanation concerning polygamy.

Doctrine and Covenants 132:2-3
2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.
3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.


Has the Lord stated another subject other than the justification of having more than one wife? No, so in asking and receiving an answer, any who believe in the self described unchangeableness of the Lord, either have to live this law or believe that this Law was not from him.

4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

Now after establishing the groundwork for the Lord justifying polygamy, the lord swears man into obeying what he is revealing. And then like in the earlier temple ceremony he backs up his claim that if you do not enter said covenant ye are damned, and have no place in his glory.
then after I am totally confused He restates that he is not the author of confusion.

8 Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion. So if we go back to what Christ said in 3 Nephi Ch 11 we are either totally confused or we have the tools to be able to discern truth from false. Look at the teachings here as compared to a manual for building a house. If the said manual had so many contradictions would you know if you put the windows in before you put the roof on or would you build the walls before you laid the foundation.

Another contradiction we need to consider is they had failed at loving their neighbor as themselves, (united order) and are put under condemnation for not living that higher law, so the Lord rewards them by giving them an even higher law of polygamy, to see if they can live that higher law, a law that is called an abomination, in the book that taught the higher law. (all things common). And God stating that they will remain under said condemnation until they remember and do the teachings found in the BOM. Again one of the teachings being that polygamy is an abomination.
Last edited by deep water on November 11th, 2015, 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is polygamy the New and everlasting covenant?

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deep water wrote:Are we reading the same Sec 132 Brian?
I answered the question. We have different glasses on.

deep water
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Re: Is polygamy the New and everlasting covenant?

Post by deep water »

We must, and each will be held accountable for not only what they believe but also who they influence by their words. Are you so sure of your truth, that you are willing to take that risk? I am.

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Re: Is polygamy the New and everlasting covenant?

Post by Robert Sinclair »

Reconcile this, men of the church of the living God, every single last one, that you must cleave unto you wife, and love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else. This is part of the "law unto the church to be embraced" in Doctrine and Covenants section 42 verse 22-------

"Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else."

You can spend the rest of your life, trying to find anywhere that God "commands his people" to take wives and multiply, and bring up seed unto him, and you shall not find it.

Recognize what "desire" is of "carnal things", and the consequences thereof. God never commanded anyone anywhere to take more than one wife, but you will find the word "if" a man "desires", which thing has been forbidden of God, so come to know what a "stumbling block" of "desire" can be, when it is placed in your path, to help you become mindful, when you stumble upon this "desire" and fall, that it is good to always be watchful, and wise, and to keep the "commandments" of God "perfectly", that you may become "one" with "clean hands", and a "pure heart", that you might be an instrument in the hands of God, to help bring again Zion upon the face of this earth, no one lifting their hearts above one another, but equal and as one, delightful fruits and most precious to the Father, from the beginning.♡

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TrueIntent
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Re: Is polygamy the New and everlasting covenant?

Post by TrueIntent »

DW, so the gate is baptism by water and repentance right? And u are saying the gate is the new and everlasting covenant???

freedomforall
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Re: Is polygamy the New and everlasting covenant?

Post by freedomforall »

D&C 132:6
6 And as pertaining to the (a)new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.

(a) D&C 66:2
2 Verily I say unto you, blessed are you for receiving mine everlasting covenant, even the fulness of my gospel, sent forth unto the children of men, that they might have life and be made partakers of the glories which are to be revealed in the last days, as it was written by the prophets and apostles in days of old.

The new and everlasting covenant is the fulness of the gospel.

A part of that covenant is the marriage of a man and a woman in the temple and having it sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise.

So...once a person figures out what the new and everlasting covenant pertains to in every aspect, then we'll have a greater understanding. It is not plural marriage exclusively.

It pays to check out references so one doesn't get the wrong impressions, and then pass it along as fact.

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