LDS Freedom Forum

My mother was officiating in an endowment session last week, when during a certain point of the endowment, five sisters refused to veil their faces during the prayer. My mother said she just cried as they had to stop the endowment. The new policy if this happens again, is to stop the endowment and have security come escort the individual(s) out.

I was wondering why these women felt the need to go into the temple to display their defiance? Why only the second time of veiling the face? I'm confused at the need to show a display of defiance in the temple. They came in, all five knowing what they planned to do ahead of time. Maybe one or some of the individuals are on this forum, and could explain why?

They probably want to sit on the stand with the bishop too.

The cleansing moves forward, but they and others here probably believe it is the TBMs that will be cleansed.

I can't imagine the mindset where people would defy, disrupt and do this in the temple.

slimjamm wrote:My mother was officiating in an endowment session last week, when during a certain point of the endowment, five sisters refused to veil their faces during the prayer. My mother said she just cried as they had to stop the endowment. The new policy if this happens again, is to stop the endowment and have security come escort the individual(s) out.

I was wondering why these women felt the need to go into the temple to display their defiance? Why only the second time of veiling the face? I'm confused at the need to show a display of defiance in the temple. They came in, all five knowing what they planned to do ahead of time. Maybe one or some of the individuals are on this forum, and could explain why?

Yikes.

Here's hoping they have a chance to explain it to the SP and after that NO chance of doing it again.

If you can't show respect for the ordinance, you shouldn't be performing it.

There was a display of defiance and even violence at the Kirtland Temple.
So this behaviour isn't new.

slimjamm wrote:My mother was officiating in an endowment session last week, when during a certain point of the endowment, five sisters refused to veil their faces during the prayer. My mother said she just cried as they had to stop the endowment. The new policy if this happens again, is to stop the endowment and have security come escort the individual(s) out.

I was wondering why these women felt the need to go into the temple to display their defiance? Why only the second time of veiling the face? I'm confused at the need to show a display of defiance in the temple. They came in, all five knowing what they planned to do ahead of time. Maybe one or some of the individuals are on this forum, and could explain why?

Satan told them it was a good idea.

Plot twist: the brethren told these sisters to do this to test the reaction of the temple workers

Stahura wrote:Plot twist: the brethren told these sisters to do this to test the reaction of the temple workers

Sure, like Jesus told Mary to spit on the altar.... 8-|

Interesting.

The church has shown that it is willing to change the temple ordinances to make them less offensive. The question I have is how the offense is normally communicated up the chain of command. I think that surveys are usually involved, but what prompts the surveys?

For lack of a better way to communicate that they are offended and want the ceremony changed, we get this—a form of civil (ritual?) disobedience.

This is also a result of a general lack of information about symbolism, and temple symbolism in particular. It is obvious that these women feel that veiling their faces is representative of being in submission to their husbands, and to men in general. They are not aware that the women wearing veils in the temple is symbolic of being brides to the Bridegroom. It is traditional in a non-temple marriage for the bride to have her veil covering her face, and the groom lifts it off, before kissing his bride, symbolizing that they are now marriied.

When I was a temple ordinance worker (12 years, so I went to a lot of preparation meetings) we were never taught anything about temple symbolism, and we were told each person should work out the symbolism for themselves, and that we as workers should NEVER offer our opinions on temple symbolism when asked for our thoughts by a patron. They were to be referred to the temple presidency.

There are a few LDS books on symbolism, but it is the rare temple patron who will buy them and study them.

Personally, I would veil my face in submission, in preparation to enter into Christ's presence, with much joy and rejoicing. The husband/wife relationship as a symbol of the bride/Bridegroom relationship is not widely understood in the LDS church. A wife is only in covenant to hearken to her husband if she knows that he is following the will of the LORD. And if her husband uses any sort of unrighteous dominion or force, amen to the priesthood (the mind and will of God) of that man.

Maybe better education in the temple prep classes would help. I've heard several people who have gone through the temple for the first time recently saying they feel like the ceremony has an occult feel to it. Obviously, it's not, but that seems to be the perception these days among the younger generation, who has little connection with ritual and symbolism and finds it more associated with the dark side. My daughter has only been to the temple twice, and shows zero interest in going back. She took one look at the Nauvoo temple star-windows and said "that's satanic," for example. A friend of my son is the same way--bigtime aversion to what he saw in there, and refuses to go back.

Would it hurt too much to teach about some of the symbolism in the endowment ceremony *before* they experience it, so they're a little more prepared?

And with the growing sensitivity around the feminist movement, any difference between the sexes in the temple is going to be taken as oppressive, especially the women's veil. We could point out the reason why Moses veiled his face after coming down off Mount Sinai, for example, to at least give the uninitiated something to think about when they see it in the temple.

I, for one, am going to teach my next child more about this stuff before he goes through.

These women don't understand the symbolism of the veil. They are not as progressive in their gospel knowledge as they think. If they don't understand the ordinance and are unwilling to participate fully in the session then by all means don't attend.

Spiritual Symbolism of Veils

I have been thinking about writing this post ever since I posted my “Getting Adam to Partake” essay several months ago. I realized after I wrote it that there is a lot of confusion and misconceptions about the practice and tradition of women wearing veils.

The practice of women wearing veils is found repeatedly throughout the scriptures, and for a good portion of human history it has been common for women (and sometimes men) to veil their heads and faces. Today, in many religions around the world (not just Islam) women still cover their heads and their faces when they are in the presence of people not of their family and/or during religious ceremonies and practices. It is a tradition seeped in powerful religious symbolism and one which Satan has done a good job of misconstruing.

Today many people see a veil as an indicator that what ever is being veiled needs to be protected from outside influences because it is weak, unimportant, or should be controlled. For example there are people in the world who argue that women need to be veiled in order to protect them from men and their lusts. Or in a similar vein, there are people who see veils as a way to keep something secret, hidden, and untouched. Yet the truth is that such interpretations of veils are exactly opposite from what they really symbolize.

The reason you veil something is because it is powerful and the veil is to protect those outside of it from the power beneath it.

Let me give several scriptural examples to illustrate what I mean.

First, in Exodus 26 the Lord gave Moses instructions about how to build the tabernacle. Moses was instructed that a veil should be hung around the Holy of Holies, in order to separate it from the rest of the tabernacle. Later in Leviticus 16: 2, 15 we learn that the Holy of Holies possessed sacred power and that anyone who entered into it without the proper authority, or without an atoning sacrifice, would die. The veil was to protect those outside from the power within.

Second, in Exodus 34:33-34 we read how when Moses came down from the mount, after speaking face to face with God, his face shone so brightly that the children of Israel were afraid to be in his presence. He had to veil his face while he was talking to them because they couldn't look upon him. Yet Moses didn't veil when he talked to God, only when he spoke in front of the congregation. Verse 34 says,

“But when Moses went in before the Lord to speak with him, he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel that which he was commanded.”
2 Corinthians 3:13 also explains that one of the reasons Moses veiled his face in front of the children of Israel, but not before God, was because Israel was not yet ready for the power and knowledge that Moses possessed. But that when Israel “… shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away… But we all, with open faces beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.” (2 Corinthians 3: 16, 18)

Third, in D&C 101:23 God explains that He himself wears a veil.

“And prepare for the revelation which is to come, when the veil of the covering of my temple, in my tabernacle, which hideth the earth, shall be taken off, and all flesh shall see me together.” (emphasis added)
The veil which we often think as being "over the earth” is actually over God. God is the one being veiled because the earth is not yet ready for the knowledge and power He possesses. In fact, God warns that in the day when He does reveal himself to the earth that,
“…every corruptible thing, both of man, or of the beasts of the field, or of the fowls of the heavens, or of the fish of the sea, that dwells upon all the face of the earth, shall be consumed; And also that of element shall melt with fervent heat; and all things shall become new, that my knowledge and glory may dwell upon all the earth.” (24-25)
God keeps himself veiled because if we were to see Him, in our fallen and sinful state, we would not be able to withstand His presence, we would burn-- physically and spiritually. His power and glory are that great.

Understanding these scriptures can also help us better understand the concept of modesty and why, both men and women, clothe their bodies. Clothing, in any form, is a type of veil. Joseph Smith once taught,

“All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not.” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith (2007), 211.)
Our bodies are powerful and when we clothe them or veil them we are acknowledging and respecting that power. Satan doesn’t have a body, nor the power that comes with one, and so he tries to coerce us into misusing our bodies to do his work. The one and only way he can gain power over us is if those with bodies give it to him.

Most of the religious women I know who veil do it because they understand this principle in one degree or another. In my “Getting Adam to Partake” post I said,

“…my Muslim friends understood something that, at that time in my life, I was only beginning to comprehend. They knew that because they were women they had real POWER housed within their souls. They knew that they had the power to love men and to attract them to them-- hopefully for life. They knew that within their bodies lay the ability to bestow life and that how they chose to use that power would affect future generations. They fully comprehended the importance and divinity of that power and as a result they protected it and refused to misuse it.”
For every righteous thing Satan always comes up with a counterfeit and veils are no exception. Satan and the world have turned veils into symbols of oppression and ignorance. He wants us to think that the power of wickedness and darkness are what is powerful and that we need to veil things to keep them protected and pure, but that mentality ascribes way more power to Satan and the world than they actually have.

The real power lies in us, the children of God, who have been endowed with a physical body that possesses a portion of God's unfathomable power. The veil, whether worn around our heads or around our bodies, is a constant reminder to the followers of darkness that what lies beneath is powerful... really powerful... and that they will never be able to have it.

As long as we don't give our power away.

Update 12/28/12:

I was recently reading the list of symbols in "The Lost Language of Symbolsim" by Alonzo Gaskill and was really struck by what the ancient symbol of a veil represented. It said:

"Veils : Three significant symbolic connotations of a veiled face are chastity, virtue, and modesty; submission, obedience, or commitment; and divinely recognized authority or power possessed by the veiled person."

This symbolism would have been much more understood anciently than it is today, when veils have lost much of their real meaning. It makes me sad that so many brides today are omitting (or refusing to wear) a veil, because is really an incredible symbol of female power and authority. It has just been so corrupted that the real meaning has been lost, and with it women's understanding of who they really are and their innate power.
Heather@Women in the Scriptures at 7:20 PM

The post above is written by a blogger, not myself.

It is very judgemental and unkind to suggest that these women should lose their recommends, and that they are under the influence of Satan, when the real problem is that there is a severe lack of information about religious symbolism.

If these women had tried to get any clarification of the symbolism of veiling their faces from the women I worked with in the temple, or from any of the temple presidencies/matrons I served with, the far greater odds are that they would not have been taught anything useful.

My guess is they felt it was not of God (not GOoD) for women to have to cover their faces - especially in praying to God, who created them.
It's like, "Why do we NOT cover our faces as some Muslim women do?"

So many Why's I could ask...
Why did a woman slap my hand when I was going through the veil in the temple? Did she feel the need to express her anger at that moment?
Why are endowment sessions patterned after Free Masonry secret ceremonies?
Why did Jesus go the temple to express his anger when people were using it to make money?
Why are we charged money for temple worthiness - even with 2 interviews and tithing settlements?
Why are we charged tithes based on income rather than as scriptures say, on "increase"?
Why are church finances kept dark and secret - yet Oaks admitted that NO tithes go to the poor, and this breaks the law of tithing (Deut. 14:28-29)?
Why is that scripture (Deut 14:28-29) that commands leaders to share 1/3 of TITHES with the poor, hidden from church curriculum and even when you search lds paper bible indexes & dictionaries under "tithing"?

If you look at it from a more objective point of view - to see if it fits with the greatest commandments, the answers are obvious.

Lizzy60 wrote:It is very judgemental and unkind to suggest that these women should lose their recommends, and that they are under the influence of Satan, when the real problem is that there is a severe lack of information about religious symbolism.

I guess you're implying you know why they did it. So would you care to explain?

My comments are based on the notion that the proper place for protest is not in the middle of a sacred ordinance, thereby bringing the spirit of contention and disobedience into one of the more spiritual activities in which one can participate. Their outward rebellion violates the very spirit in which their recommends were extended to them, not to mention completely betrays their willingness to live up to covenants they have made.

Now, of course, if they sinned ignorantly, my apologies. But willful rebellion in the middle of an ordinance? I don't see any good excuse for that.

Catherine wrote:These women don't understand the symbolism of the veil. They are not as progressive in their gospel knowledge as they think. If they don't understand the ordinance and are unwilling to participate fully in the session then by all means don't attend.

Spiritual Symbolism of Veils

This is a GREAT post, Catherine. Though you didn't write it, it was very useful. I think I know what I'm teaching for FHE tonight...

And welcome back, btw.

Thinker wrote:My guess is they felt it was not of God (not GOoD) for women to have to cover their faces - especially in praying to God, who created them.
It's like, "Why do we NOT cover our faces as some Muslim women do?"

So many Why's I could ask...
Why did a woman slap my hand when I was going through the veil in the temple? Did she feel the need to express her anger at that moment?
Why are endowment sessions patterned after Free Masonry secret ceremonies?
Why did Jesus go the temple to express his anger when people were using it to make money?
Why are we charged money for temple worthiness - even with 2 interviews and tithing settlements?
Why are we charged tithes based on income rather than as scriptures say, on "increase"?
Why are church finances kept dark and secret - yet Oaks admitted that NO tithes go to the poor, and this breaks the law of tithing (Deut. 14:28-29)?
Why is that scripture (Deut 14:28-29) that commands leaders to share 1/3 of TITHES with the poor, hidden from church curriculum and even when you search lds paper bible indexes & dictionaries under "tithing"?

If you look at it from a more objective point of view - to see if it fits with the greatest commandments, the answers are obvious.

I don't buy this. If at any point you feel something in the temple isn't of God, you don't act out in defiance. I lean more towards what others have stated, as these women not understanding the symbolism and ordinances of the temple. What they did was selfish and disruptive to the others in the temple that day. There are many other ways to display our displeasure with something like this. The temple is a place for an individual to gain more insight and spiritual knowledge. A place to draw nearer to the Lord. These women took that away from the others in that ceremony with their selfish behavior.

slimjamm wrote:

Thinker wrote:My guess is they felt it was not of God (not GOoD) for women to have to cover their faces - especially in praying to God, who created them.
It's like, "Why do we NOT cover our faces as some Muslim women do?"

So many Why's I could ask...
Why did a woman slap my hand when I was going through the veil in the temple? Did she feel the need to express her anger at that moment?
Why are endowment sessions patterned after Free Masonry secret ceremonies?
Why did Jesus go the temple to express his anger when people were using it to make money?
Why are we charged money for temple worthiness - even with 2 interviews and tithing settlements?
Why are we charged tithes based on income rather than as scriptures say, on "increase"?
Why are church finances kept dark and secret - yet Oaks admitted that NO tithes go to the poor, and this breaks the law of tithing (Deut. 14:28-29)?
Why is that scripture (Deut 14:28-29) that commands leaders to share 1/3 of TITHES with the poor, hidden from church curriculum and even when you search lds paper bible indexes & dictionaries under "tithing"?

If you look at it from a more objective point of view - to see if it fits with the greatest commandments, the answers are obvious.

I don't buy this. If at any point you feel something in the temple isn't of God, you don't act out in defiance. I lean more towards what others have stated, as these women not understanding the symbolism and ordinances of the temple. What they did was selfish and disruptive to the others in the temple that day. There are many other ways to display our displeasure with something like this. The temple is a place for an individual to gain more insight and spiritual knowledge. A place to draw nearer to the Lord. These women took that away from the others in that ceremony with their selfish behavior.

I can understand your perspective - and how many may have been shaken up, rather than going through the usual, more reverent ceremony.
Still, if something is wrong, is it of God to go along with it? Is peace more important than defening what is of God?
Would you say the same of Jesus - when he expressed violent anger in the temple?

They could have left quietly. There are even times during the ceremony where that option is given.

Thinker wrote:

slimjamm wrote:

Thinker wrote:My guess is they felt it was not of God (not GOoD) for women to have to cover their faces - especially in praying to God, who created them.
It's like, "Why do we NOT cover our faces as some Muslim women do?"

So many Why's I could ask...
Why did a woman slap my hand when I was going through the veil in the temple? Did she feel the need to express her anger at that moment?
Why are endowment sessions patterned after Free Masonry secret ceremonies?
Why did Jesus go the temple to express his anger when people were using it to make money?
Why are we charged money for temple worthiness - even with 2 interviews and tithing settlements?
Why are we charged tithes based on income rather than as scriptures say, on "increase"?
Why are church finances kept dark and secret - yet Oaks admitted that NO tithes go to the poor, and this breaks the law of tithing (Deut. 14:28-29)?
Why is that scripture (Deut 14:28-29) that commands leaders to share 1/3 of TITHES with the poor, hidden from church curriculum and even when you search lds paper bible indexes & dictionaries under "tithing"?

If you look at it from a more objective point of view - to see if it fits with the greatest commandments, the answers are obvious.

I don't buy this. If at any point you feel something in the temple isn't of God, you don't act out in defiance. I lean more towards what others have stated, as these women not understanding the symbolism and ordinances of the temple. What they did was selfish and disruptive to the others in the temple that day. There are many other ways to display our displeasure with something like this. The temple is a place for an individual to gain more insight and spiritual knowledge. A place to draw nearer to the Lord. These women took that away from the others in that ceremony with their selfish behavior.

I can understand your perspective - and how many may have been shaken up, rather than going through the usual, more reverent ceremony.
Still, if something is wrong, is it of God to go along with it? Is peace more important than defening what is of God?
Would you say the same of Jesus - when he expressed violent anger in the temple?

No, I wouldn't say the same about Jesus and what he did in the temple. I don't think what you are trying to point out in those examples are even related.

slimjamm wrote:.. I was wondering why these women felt the need to go into the temple to display their defiance? Why only the second time of veiling the face? I'm confused at the need to show a display of defiance in the temple. They came in, all five knowing what they planned to do ahead of time. Maybe one or some of the individuals are on this forum, and could explain why?

Sounds like NOM's (New Order Mormon's) and/or Kate Kelly followers. I doubt it is anyone on this forum.

h_p wrote:

Catherine wrote:These women don't understand the symbolism of the veil. They are not as progressive in their gospel knowledge as they think. If they don't understand the ordinance and are unwilling to participate fully in the session then by all means don't attend.

Spiritual Symbolism of Veils

This is a GREAT post, Catherine. Though you didn't write it, it was very useful. I think I know what I'm teaching for FHE tonight...

And welcome back, btw.

Thank you:) I think I just need to avoid certain threads and I should be fine:) I really like reading insight from many members of the forum.

Lizzy60 wrote:This is also a result of a general lack of information about symbolism, and temple symbolism in particular. It is obvious that these women feel that veiling their faces is representative of being in submission to their husbands, and to men in general. They are not aware that the women wearing veils in the temple is symbolic of being brides to the Bridegroom. It is traditional in a non-temple marriage for the bride to have her veil covering her face, and the groom lifts it off, before kissing his bride, symbolizing that they are now marriied.

Although I agree mostly with what you wrote, are not males also part of the "bride" of Christ? If so, why wouldn't they veil themselves as well.

I wonder, as paperface made me aware, that the womb is a veil. Maybe there is a connection.

jockeybox wrote:

Lizzy60 wrote:This is also a result of a general lack of information about symbolism, and temple symbolism in particular. It is obvious that these women feel that veiling their faces is representative of being in submission to their husbands, and to men in general. They are not aware that the women wearing veils in the temple is symbolic of being brides to the Bridegroom. It is traditional in a non-temple marriage for the bride to have her veil covering her face, and the groom lifts it off, before kissing his bride, symbolizing that they are now marriied.

Although I agree mostly with what you wrote, are not males also part of the "bride" of Christ? If so, why wouldn't they veil themselves as well.

I wonder, as paperface made me aware, that the womb is a veil. Maybe there is a connection.

Males wearing veils gets confused with the KKK.

Veil the desires of the body (Eve) and hearken to the desires of the spirit (Adam) as the spirit hearkens to the desires of the father. Something like that.

Spirit/Adam created first. Body/Eve created second. We are both Adam and Eve.