Wondering why?

[iWriteStuff]

I was not. However, it's the 21st century. Women are starting to get more and more annoyed by things that make them feel like they are "less" than men. Even Mormon women. ;-)

In my ward, it falls on the Priesthood to clean the church every week. Last week was my week. As I scrubbed toilets in the lady's room, it suddenly struck me how interesting it was that it was the MEN doing the cleaning of the church. I've never seen the sign-up sheet for such things go to the RS. Why do you suppose this is?

I don't think Mormon women of the 21st century even know how good they have it. You are annoyed because you have to wear a veil in the temple? Really? Gosh, I didn't realize how insensitive that was....

[sandman45]

Let's be realistic. MANY LDS women don't care for the fact that they are required to veil their faces in the temple. The temple ceremonies have evolved SIGNIFICANTLY since the 1840's. Did you know that in the 1800's all participants were required to completely disrobe and stand naked in a bathtub as they were washed and anointed in the Initiatory? Heck, it wasn't until 2005 when they stopped having ordinance workers touch people all over their nearly naked bodies with oil and water.

I knew a man who received his endowments in March of 1990. This was back when the penalties were still part of the endowment. He freaked out and stood up and said, "I WILL DO NO SUCH THING! THE LORD WOULD NEVER REQUIRE THIS OF HIS FOLLOWERS!" and he walked out. Sadly, if he had gone through the temple just two weeks later, he wouldn't have had to pantomime slitting his own throat. Was he "wrong" or "being defiant" because he didn't feel comfortable pretending to slash his own throat?

My point is, just because something doesn't offend YOU, doesn't mean it isn't offensive to someone else.

Sooo.. were you one of these women?

The Endowment used to has more symbolism and more teachings in it than it does now.. the truth about our Father and the plan of salvation was amazing and some teachings more obvious.. now its watered down... just like the initiatories being washed/annointed symbollically now instead of literal...

[sandman45]

Why women veil their faces?
Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: I Cor 11:4-5

This..

[AI2.0]

Let's be realistic. MANY LDS women don't care for the fact that they are required to veil their faces in the temple. The temple ceremonies have evolved SIGNIFICANTLY since the 1840's. Did you know that in the 1800's all participants were required to completely disrobe and stand naked in a bathtub as they were washed and anointed in the Initiatory? Heck, it wasn't until 2005 when they stopped having ordinance workers touch people all over their nearly naked bodies with oil and water.

I knew a man who received his endowments in March of 1990. This was back when the penalties were still part of the endowment. He freaked out and stood up and said, "I WILL DO NO SUCH THING! THE LORD WOULD NEVER REQUIRE THIS OF HIS FOLLOWERS!" and he walked out. Sadly, if he had gone through the temple just two weeks later, he wouldn't have had to pantomime slitting his own throat. Was he "wrong" or "being defiant" because he didn't feel comfortable pretending to slash his own throat?

My point is, just because something doesn't offend YOU, doesn't mean it isn't offensive to someone else.

I'm going take a educated guess and assume that you are the same 'Nortinsky' who has snuck in the temple, recorded the sessions, then put the temple sessions on youtube. Is it true you have a retraining order to stay away from LDS temples and chapels?

[AI2.0]

The Endowment used to has more symbolism and more teachings in it than it does now.. the truth about our Father and the plan of salvation was amazing and some teachings more obvious.. now its watered down... just like the initiatories being washed/annointed symbollically now instead of literal...

I attended before the changes and I see them as inspired. It's not lacking for anyone who has the spirit of revelation and actually, the whole temple ritual is symbolic because it's conditional on our faithfulness. Clearly they needed to remind us of this.

[iWriteStuff]

Let's be realistic. MANY LDS women don't care for the fact that they are required to veil their faces in the temple. The temple ceremonies have evolved SIGNIFICANTLY since the 1840's. Did you know that in the 1800's all participants were required to completely disrobe and stand naked in a bathtub as they were washed and anointed in the Initiatory? Heck, it wasn't until 2005 when they stopped having ordinance workers touch people all over their nearly naked bodies with oil and water.

I knew a man who received his endowments in March of 1990. This was back when the penalties were still part of the endowment. He freaked out and stood up and said, "I WILL DO NO SUCH THING! THE LORD WOULD NEVER REQUIRE THIS OF HIS FOLLOWERS!" and he walked out. Sadly, if he had gone through the temple just two weeks later, he wouldn't have had to pantomime slitting his own throat. Was he "wrong" or "being defiant" because he didn't feel comfortable pretending to slash his own throat?

My point is, just because something doesn't offend YOU, doesn't mean it isn't offensive to someone else.

I'm going take a educated guess and assume that you are the same 'Nortinsky' who has snuck in the temple, recorded the sessions, then put the temple sessions on youtube. Is it true you have a retraining order to stay away from LDS temples and chapels?

Is that for reals? If so then double high five for the outing! :ymapplause: :ymapplause:

[buffalo_girl]

How sad. Impatience to 'know' the LORD's mind impedes spiritual progress; line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little.

What did Adam call his help meet for him prior to the Fall?

Genesis 2
22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

NOT until after the Fall does Adam give Woman a name and an eternal designation and authority.

Genesis 3
20 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

[/color]

[Kitkat]

I was not. However, it's the 21st century. Women are starting to get more and more annoyed by things that make them feel like they are "less" than men. Even Mormon women. ;-)

In my ward, it falls on the Priesthood to clean the church every week. Last week was my week. As I scrubbed toilets in the lady's room, it suddenly struck me how interesting it was that it was the MEN doing the cleaning of the church. I've never seen the sign-up sheet for such things go to the RS. Why do you suppose this is?

I don't think Mormon women of the 21st century even know how good they have it. You are annoyed because you have to wear a veil in the temple? Really? Gosh, I didn't realize how insensitive that was....

Props for cleaning toilets. I have no issue with wearing the veil in the temple, but for you men that have never worn one...it does get very hot in there, and I can only imagine
if you have bad breath...

[shadow]

The clothing is extremely symbolic.
To the ignorant, many things seem awry.

You mean to those who think secret Freemasonry/Illuminati rituals and clothing seem awry.

I used to love the temple until I understood more about it - how it's used to make money (members are charged $$$$$$ for temple worthiness as a requirement for a temple recommend), and Freemasonry imitations.
The first time I went through, I felt an evil spirit, but then at the encouragement of others, I ignored it and tried to see the good.
Then I had mostly bad experiences in the temple (only one very sweet experience).

It is used as a tool to be exclusionary and anti-family (by breaking up families during weddings etc) - which to me, both equate to being anti-Christ and anti-God.

I'm all for uplifting symbols that point to GOoD, but when the symbols become the focus - they defeat their purpose - as has been the case of clothing in the temple endowment ceremonies.

I get that you think things seem awry. Others see things differently. If you see clothing as the focus, then you're probably focussing on the wrong thing.

[Thinker]

Shadow,
It was other women focusing on and messing with MY clothes that has bothered me several times, when I was trying to focus on the Spirit.
This has bothered others - men too.

I wish the temple taught more of how to do what Christ did - more in depth.
And I wish the temple was NOT used to make money or to make leader worshippers feel superior and others inferior, but was as God and Christ - welcoming to all who desired to come in.

[Nortinski]

In my ward, it falls on the Priesthood to clean the church every week. Last week was my week. As I scrubbed toilets in the lady's room, it suddenly struck me how interesting it was that it was the MEN doing the cleaning of the church. I've never seen the sign-up sheet for such things go to the RS. Why do you suppose this is?

Yup, definitely just in YOUR Ward. I have a lot of LDS friends spread out all over the U.S. and almost every single one of them have said that several families are assigned to do the cleaning. Moms, Dads, boy and girls. They ALL clean their chapels. In fact, you're the first person I've ever heard say that only the men in their Ward.

[ajax]

It's a sort of self-flagellation to make them feel better.

[shadow]

It's a sort of self-flagellation to make them feel better.

45 minutes of house cleaning at the church is also a good excuse to be able to watch football the rest of the day.

Wife- Can you help fold the laundry while you're sitting there?
Husband- My arms are so tired from mopping the gym and the women's bathroom at church this morning. That church is a big building. Lots of vacuuming too but I'm happy I was able to serve. Can you grab me a Coke while you're up?

[slimjamm]

So Nortinski, are you going to answer A12's question? Have you put recordings of the endowment on YouTube?

[buffalo_girl]

It was other women focusing on and messing with MY clothes that has bothered me several times, when I was trying to focus on the Spirit.
This has bothered others - men too.

As temple workers, we are counseled to be an example of correct conduct - NOT to 'fiddle' with the patron's clothes or otherwise cause them to be embarrassed or distracted from the proceedings.

When I first began attending the Bismarck Temple in earnest - before I was called to be a worker - some over zealous Sisters made a point of correcting every little misstep or oversight. I figured, since the Endowment Ceremony is symbolic of 'Real Life', and one DOES run into people who take their roles more seriously than they ought, why not let them feel they are doing their job thoroughly and well? I really had no problem allowing them to 'put me straight'. Would being offended or huffy help me or them enjoy their time in the temple?

Besides, I observed long ago, that those who adopt a prideful or bossy attitude in the temple are corrected by the LORD. Something will happen to pull them up short and cause them to be much more humble about their sacred calling.

People who work in the temple over several years mellow and learn to be more considerate of the patron's efforts and their need to learn through the Spirit. I've seen several Temple Presidencies come and go. At the beginning of their callings, everyone is supper uptight about EVERYTHING! After a year or so, they begin to calm down and actually begin to enjoy themselves.

As in 'Real Life' we can allow others to make mistakes with grace so there is no embarrassment on either side of the equation.

[Thinker]

Buffalo_girl,
Ideally, yes.
For me, though, because of my childhood - I really don't like people touching me without me asking for it.
And, I don't like being picked at, as if there is something wrong with me if my clothing is not exactly perfectly as someone wants it.
It is invasive - and people usually don't do that at church - but somehow, they felt like they could do it in the temple.

Overall, I have no desire to go to the temple.
My temple is wherever I am - I can feel God's love and spirit - anywhere.
Yes, some places, like nature, are easier - but really, my body is my temple and the spirit I feel is felt within.
I'm trying to treat my body well - love others and myself - do God's will - so I can have God's spirit with me as often as possible.

[buffalo_girl]

Well, they should NOT be fussing with you or your clothes. I am sorry you aren't comfortable attending the temple. Can you talk with one of the Temple Matrons and express your feelings? I'm sure you aren't the only patron who is made uncomfortable by over zealousness on the part of a temple worker.

I know the LORD understands. Are you ok about continuing to be temple worthy and wearing your garments even though you choose not to attend the temple? I seem to recall you have some questions about the tithing requirement for a recommend, but I'm not sure you need a recommend to wear your garments. Time will come when all our wounds will be healed.