Money is not evil...

[marc]

...and yet

2 Nephi 26:31 But the laborer in Zion shall labor for Zion; for if they labor for money they shall perish.

[sushi_chef]

those rich ones could have been with the begger lazarus in abrahams bosom, if they had imparted theirs to him/the poor....so, the wealth is the ploblem?! the salvation of the rich is the first one the church should aim at/tackle with. ....thus sushi_ is for the use of tithings received to the poor!!....

"13 No servant can serve two masters:.... Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."
(luke 16)

:-B

[Darren]

Money is a proxy for human energy, first developed in Babylon and progressed upon by each successor kingdom as seen in King Nebuchadnezzar's dream.
In Zion the oath, promise, or contract is human energy engaging in the marketplace as the trust that actually runs the enterprise of mankind.

Money is a head-fake of Satan's System. Money = control.

Read The History of Money, parts 1 and 2
http://s98822910.onlinehome.us/thousand ... part_1.pdf
http://s98822910.onlinehome.us/thousand ... part_2.pdf

In the Scriptures of the lost tribes of Israel is the story of how the birth of The Free Enterprise System, at FornSigtuna, Sweden, in 43 A.D. began with the oaths of the working together men unto the Lord.

God Bless,
Darren

[Separatist]

19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good--to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

Is Jacob advising to labor for money or Zion? I would argue the latter, money being used as a tool here. He had just gotten through telling the people how God had blessed them with many riches, namely the precious metals, but has let pride get the best of them. God can handle wealth, can we?

[marc]

19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good--to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

Is Jacob advising to labor for money or Zion? I would argue the latter, money being used as a tool here. He had just gotten through telling the people how God had blessed them with many riches, namely the precious metals, but has let pride get the best of them. God can handle wealth, can we?

I believe that Jacob is advising them to continue to become equal in temporal things, to lay up in store what they need to subsist on so that when there is enough and to spare, they might commence with the work of God, no longer laboring for money or worldly riches to elevate the poor so that they, too, may participate in laboring for the cause of Zion. I concede that a transitional period is inevitable in order that all who participate may shake off the bonds of Mammon and begin serving God with ALL their heart, might, mind and strength. Thereafter, laboring for money or riches or gain is cause to perish.

The early saints had this opportunity and blew it.

D&C 101:75 There is even now already in store sufficient, yea, even an abundance, to redeem Zion, and establish her waste places, no more to be thrown down, were the churches, who call themselves after my name, willing to hearken to my voice.

[Darren]

In moneyless Zion, the Bishop's Storehouses become the point of access to all of the temporal things of this world. Your key to having full access to those temporal things is your temple oath, as a stewardship over your calling in the kingdom. And as the bishop works with the bishops at the stake level he can represent the oaths of all of those under his stewardship, in their bond-ability to deliver what they say they will deliver, then he takes back to his bishop's storehouse the temporal things provided by those other bishop's from their storehouses. This is the true basis of what is called a Commonwealth.

In the Scriptures of the lost tribes of Israel is the story of how the first headquarters for The Free Enterprise System located on the Danish Island of Fyn where all of those bishops would meet together semi-annually to conduct the trade necessary to be transacted between these Bishop's Storehouses.

God Bless,
Darren

[marc]

What I see when I read Jacob is a people who had watched Nephi labor day in and day out year after year, digging for ore, refining it and forging plate after plate after plate, whereupon he would then labor day in and day out etching and engraving and scoring character after painstaking character to benefit his children and his posterity and us with a precious record. Everyone else thought it would be great to dig and smelt and refine and get rich and fat and greedy (and have more than one wife).

[Separatist]

I'm guessing part of what was in the storehouse was money. But fair enough. I don't have time to keep going.

I enjoy the conversation. I see it, and I hope you do as well, as fellow believers reasoning together.

[Separatist]

Greed doesn't go away when money goes away.

[zionminded]

Looking at money as a way to get gain, and be better than others is wrong. Looking at money or using it to get power is wrong.

But having money to do good, and take care of your family etc. isn't wrong.

There will come a time when money as a medium of exchange will go away, because need and want goes away, and so does the greed and all things telestial.

[Darren]

Greed doesn't go away when money goes away.

No,

but the controls from our ancestral Free Enterprise System produced a bottom up way to enforce goodness (juries), that today we call the system of Law, that operated very well from before time immemorial.

In The Free Enterprise System, an Oath, a promise, a contract imbue trust. Money becomes the infection upon the mind that ensures corruption.

God Bless,
Darren

[marc]

Greed doesn't go away when money goes away.

I agree. But what I keep emphasizing is to depart Babylon and redeem Zion. That is my focus. Those who are converted won't need money. They will have transitioned from it. But yes, as long as we're in this Telestial world, money will always be part of the equation, even when it is nobly used.

[Separatist]

I still tend to think that money is as essential to rational production as math is to the engineer.

28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?

Even without money, we know that building all our buildings out of gold is more costly than wood. The mining would take far greater effort than cutting down trees. The calculation is automatic in our head. Money calculations make this far more effective. And there are people who have legitimate skill and talent in managing these processes. Why do we tend to not like that particular skill?

[marc]

Well, Jesus used what the people could relate to, naturally, in his parables. But I do not believe money is needed and therefore not used in the Celestial Kingdom. I understand why we use it in the Telestial world, but I just don't see it as a need in the Terrestrial world where we will be engaged in heavenly work.

[sushi_chef]

:-B those rich ones could have been with the begger lazarus in abrahams bosom, if they had imparted theirs to him/the poor....so, the wealth is the ploblem?!

in that situation, the salvation of the rich is the first one the church should aim at/tackle with. the church should be the vehicle for it, ideally speaking....thus sushi_ is for the use of the tithing received to the poor, at least!!....

"16 But it must needs be done in mine own way; and behold this is the way that I, the Lord, have decreed to provide for my saints, that the poor shall be exalted, in that the rich are made low.

18 Therefore, if any man shall take of the abundance which I have made, and impart not his portion, according to the law of my gospel, unto the poor and the needy, he shall, with the wicked, lift up his eyes in hell, being in torment." (dc 104)

"17 ....in whose bosom it is decreed that the poor and the meek of the earth shall inherit it." (dc 88)

"112 And the bishop, Newel K. Whitney, also should travel round about and among all the churches, searching after the poor to administer to their wants by humbling the rich and the proud." (dc 84)

[Teancum]

Greed doesn't go away when money goes away.

I agree. But what I keep emphasizing is to depart Babylon and redeem Zion. That is my focus. Those who are converted won't need money. They will have transitioned from it. But yes, as long as we're in this Telestial world, money will always be part of the equation, even when it is nobly used.

The way I see it, is money is directly exchangable for energy / fuel. Therefore, if you have ways of producing your fuel / energy then you have in effect a way to print your own money. If one were to go completely off-grid, producing what you need, and donating what surplus you might have to the bishop's storehouse (if that were possible), then that would be leaving babylon for Zion. The trouble then becomes apparent when I need boots or shoes that I cant make on my own. But this idea of Energy=money (at the current exchange rates anyway) is why Spain is pulling the plug on alternative energy producers (ie. solar, wind etc). They are loosing tax money that used to come from the electric grid subscribers. Not only Spain but other places as well such as Colorado, California, and others have started seeing people escape from the grip of control with alternative energy sytems and are using energy regulatory thumbscrews to reign them back in.

We might be enlightened to ask ourselves the question: Why are we still at the same level of energy technology as we were in the 1970's?
Because if any of the workable new fuel / energy technologies were to be allowed to supplant oil, then the banking sytem (based on the petro-dollar) would not hold the control over people, nations, and economies of the world.

[sushi_chef]

kinda off topi....speaking of energy, seems some mainstream scientists have already got free energy stuff.... :-B

[2ndRateMind]

I believe the relevant quote is from 1 Timothy 6:10 KJV

For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

To my mind, someone who loves money is that individual who has it, but cannot bring themselves to part with it in some better or more moral cause than their own comfort. Or that individual who lacks it, and would commit crime to get it, for their own comfort.

Cheers, 2RM.

[gclayjr]

2RM,

I have to say that I generally agree with your last post. A lot of people confuse, "money" with "the Love of money". The fact is, that a society of any size couldn't exist without money. Barter only works when both people have something of similar value that the other person wants. Particularly in an industrial society, that rarely occurs. Money performs the function of being a medium of exchange that allows people to make what would be very complex exchanges.

That being said, Money as a medium of exchange not only tempts those who love it too much to be dishonest and selfish in their acquisition, and not sharing of money, but also tempts "lovers of money" to "game the system" by manipulating money and banks to benefit themselves at the expense of the rest of us. As the famous bank robber Willie Sutton once replied when asked "Why do you Rob banks>" ...

"... because that is where the money is? "

We live in a Telestial world and I guess that evil money lovers will be around us. Such people will always be trying to "Game the system". Although I think that it would be better if we had money that was based upon something with a reasonably fixed value like gold.

Regards,

George Clay

[2ndRateMind]

As you say, money is merely a means of exchange and a store of value. It is not, in itself, in any way evil, or even immoral. People may be evil, and immoral, but money, despite being the target of avarice and greed, cannot be.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[Darren]

As you say, money is merely a means of exchange and a store of value. It is not, in itself, in any way evil, or even immoral. People may be evil, and immoral, but money, despite being the target of avarice and greed, cannot be.

Best wishes, 2RM.

The problem with money is that money is a material proxy for human energy, an arbitrary unit first defined by the Government of Babel as a weight of silver, a shekel. Money had the benefit to the issuers of supplanting the inherent trust in oaths, promises and contracts from the institutions of trade to the institutions of government and empires. Money = control.

Human energy can engage in commerce without the material objects we call money. And from time immemorial that energy based commerce has been The Bond Market of the institutions of trade, the contracts, based upon promises and oaths, by goodly people. Trust be upon the people and their elected representatives.

The fallacy of money comes from Satan teaching that the basis of humanity is it's thinking, rather than it's inherent seeking. With money, those thoughts of the philosopher kings become the "God" or orthodoxy wherein is placed the people's trust.

From the Scriptures of the lost tribes of Israel is the beginnings of The Free Enterprise System, founded upon the purpose and seeking of goodness, that Jesus Christ told them to base their commerce upon. Rather than Babylonian Orthodoxy -trust in the thoughts of philosopher kings, the trust of The Free Enterprise System comes from the sublime perfection of each member of society seeking the Virtue of Jesus by the power of the Holy Ghost, upon the covenant keeping members and institutions of society.

After about 800 years of the lost tribes of Israel operating their economy that way, money invaded from the empire to their south, and became the parasite upon the Commonwealth Economy of our ancestors.

If you want Zion we will need to get back to the foundations of the constitution given to us from Jesus at Lake Law, Sweden in 43 A.D. wherein he told them to "Look unto me in every thought" (Law) as the basis for the trust that runs our ancestor's economy.

Money is the filth right out of Satan's toilet, so reach in deep and scoop it up while you can.



God Bless,
Darren

[gclayjr]

Darren,

A lot of words, a lot of assertions. No coherent thought.

From the Scriptures of the lost tribes of Israel is the beginnings of The Free Enterprise System, founded upon the purpose and seeking of goodness, that Jesus Christ told them to base their commerce upon.

Although I don't know how this does away with money, but since you said it, Ill assume you can explain it.

I'll ask you a simple question. Suppose I am a simple farmer who wants to better my life by using a tractor, that I might multiply my labors. How can I get such a tractor if no tractor companies want my vegetables?

Regards,

George Clay

[Separatist]

Money isn't created by government, though government tends to take it over and be its biggest abusers.

[Darren]

Darren,

A lot of words, a lot of assertions. No coherent thought.

From the Scriptures of the lost tribes of Israel is the beginnings of The Free Enterprise System, founded upon the purpose and seeking of goodness, that Jesus Christ told them to base their commerce upon.

Although I don't know how this does away with money, but since you said it, Ill assume you can explain it.

I'll ask you a simple question. Suppose I am a simple farmer who wants to better my life by using a tractor, that I might multiply my labors. How can I get such a tractor if no tractor companies want my vegetables?

Regards,

George Clay

Use your debit card, based on Anglo-Saxon Wealth (voting stock).

Anciently It was a ledger entry purchase upon the Commonwealth's Ledger.

It is in the market of the Commonwealth's clearing house (Bond Market) for vegetables and tractors that the vegetables are contracted upon and the tractors are contracted upon, often in advance of their creation and delivery.

The vegetables then go throughout the Commonwealth to other distribution points, Bishop's Storehouses or company stores, of the Industrial Burries and Agricultural Townships that make up the Commonwealth, where they are wanted at their company stores (Bishop's Storehouse) and the Tractors go to the Farmers Townships who want them through their company store.

You have credit in the system from the value you own at your company store, as found on the ledger of the Bishop's Storehouse Ledger, so your vegetables give you access to the Commonwealth's tractors and what ever else is there made available by those many companies working together for the betterment of mankind.

America was set up in Farming Townships subdivisions, a Farming Township is a unit of both land and number of participants of a Farming Guild Cooperative. Thomas Jefferson learned important ancient constitutional details of land division while studying in the original Anglo-Saxon Language of their business organizational principles of the original units of 10s, 50s, 100s, and 1,000s, particularly available from the Farmers Guild customs kept in London's Guildhall Library of which puritan New England was operating upon.

Anciently, in a Farming Guild Cooperative's Township, the tractor comes into the Bishop's Storehouse as ordered up the chain of leadership, at the merchandise exchange of the Commonwealth and is sold to a specific steward in exchange for voting stock ownership as kept upon the Bishop's Storehouse General Ledger. The Tractor becomes the "Socage" title property of a specific Steward in that Farming Township.

Socage is the ancient title upon which all property belonged to a Steward in his stewardship. And is how all property is owned in Heaven.

God Bless,
Darren

[Darren]

Money isn't created by government, though government tends to take it over and be its biggest abusers.

Money is a thought devised into a material proxy, and governments exist because they promote themselves as having the best thoughts about material proxies, and material in arbitrary units allotments.

Law is thought directed by virtue. As we seek virtue we create and develop the purpose of God, to bring life and abundance to mankind.

Money = Government.

God Bless,
Darren