LDS Freedom Forum

It is my belief the "veil" was created by us with our agency as a part of our covenant to enter mortality. I also believe that we can remove it with that agency, so long as it is Gods will, and is for our good.

We often talk as if Got creating the veil, and that it is a shared experience, but I don't think that's the case. Just like God was not able to introduce separation into the world of Adam and Eve (it was a matter of the choice from Adam and Eve), the veil is also "separation", something that God is unable to create because it goes against His laws.

This point likely deserves a comment, since it is also part of my understanding that separation from God is our choice, not His. He will never "separate" us from Him, rather, we separate ourselves from Him. I think we did this as a part of our mortal journey and agency, and we continue to do so here by our choices (i.e. sin). In fact, I think we were pained by the choice to enter mortality in this regard, though we were very excited about entering the experience to grow, it came at cost of our choices, as is profoundly represented in the Adam and Eve narrative. The entire mortal experience is about returning to Him, and removing that separation, removing that veil.

In Ether Chapter 3 we read:

19 And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting.

20 Wherefore, having this perfect knowledge of God, he could not be kept from within the veil; therefore he saw Jesus; and he did minister unto him.

It wasn't the Lord that took the veil away, it was the knowledge (faith) of the brother of Jared. We too, are brother of Jareds, and have the choice to remove the separation from Christ by obedience, and then arrive at the point where we remove the veil itself. As I've stated. I think we made this veil. It was our agency that made it.

When we pass into the next life, part of that veil is removed because we accept anticipate this (our agency), and part of this veil remains for many who remain "earth-bound". Over "time" (as if time is a factor), those who remain earth-bound will remove the remainder of the veil they created and return to Father to continue in their journey. For many who pass on, they then remove the rest of the veil they created for themselves.

Just one last thought. As a psychologist, I can tell you the body-mind problem has been widely debated for many decades. It is my belief our body is a part in this veil, because our spirit connects to our body through a complex set of neurological factors that strongly make up our psychology. Mastering our body is more than controlling our sex drive, it is controlling our body's ability to understand the nature of the veil, and so you can interact with your body in a spiritual way, and control it, instead of it controlling you. In other words, instead of your biology controlling you, you (your spirit self) is in control of your biology. This is a part of lifting the veil.

It is my testimony through sacred experiences these things are true. In Jesus name.

Your comments are welcome.

Ether 4:15 Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.

Unbelief is a word used 70+ times in the scriptures.

Hmmm... Interesting. Let me ask this - does Satan and those who followed him have a veil placed over them? Are they 'separated' from God?

Onsdag wrote:Hmmm... Interesting. Let me ask this - does Satan and those who followed him have a veil placed over them? Are they 'separated' from God?

The scriptures are silent on this. But the veil is a veil of unbelief. Yet in the Bible we read even the devils believe and tremble. We read there is a place prepared for them. Thus they must be separated from God.

marc wrote:

Onsdag wrote:Hmmm... Interesting. Let me ask this - does Satan and those who followed him have a veil placed over them? Are they 'separated' from God?

The scriptures are silent on this. But the veil is a veil of unbelief. Yet in the Bible we read even the devils believe and tremble. We read there is a place prepared for them. Thus they must be separated from God.

So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that devils believe therefore they don't have a veil, and yet at the same time they must be separated from God therefore they do have a veil. Is this correct?

I'm just quoting scripture and drawing a conclusion based on scripture.

marc wrote:I'm just quoting scripture and drawing a conclusion based on scripture.

So what's your conclusion? I'm not sure I understood your response, that's why I asked for clarity. Do you believe devils have a veil placed on them or no? To me it would seem it must be the one or the other as they are mutually exclusive, but your response leads me to think that you believe they both do and don't have a veil at the same time. :-\

I don't believe one way or the other. I do not know what separates the Celestial Kingdom from Outer Darkness. I just know there is a veil of unbelief between God and me.

I'm not asking about what separates the Celestial Kingdom from outer darkness. I'm asking if devils, who have been cast out from Heavenly Father's presence onto the earth, do or do not have a veil placed over them. Surely you and the original poster have an opinion on this, right?

Onsdag wrote:Hmmm... Interesting. Let me ask this - does Satan and those who followed him have a veil placed over them? Are they 'separated' from God?

Great question. I think they do not have a veil, however, they are much less spiritually evolved, so the power evil spirits posses is rather small. They are masters at reading and manipulating people however.

Onsdag wrote:I'm not asking about what separates the Celestial Kingdom from outer darkness. I'm asking if devils, who have been cast out from Heavenly Father's presence onto the earth, do or do not have a veil placed over them. Surely you and the original poster have an opinion on this, right?

Um, yeah, I have an opinion. And that is I don't know. But if you want me to make something up, sure, there is a veil. We'll call it the veil of denial.

zionminded wrote:

Onsdag wrote:Hmmm... Interesting. Let me ask this - does Satan and those who followed him have a veil placed over them? Are they 'separated' from God?

Great question. I think they do not have a veil, however, they are much less spiritually evolved, so the power evil spirits posses is rather small. They are masters at reading and manipulating people however.

Thank you. So, if I'm understanding you correctly, based upon what you taught in the first post, then because they do not have a veil then it must follow that Satan and his followers have choosen to faithfully believe in God and therefore freely dwell in His presence?

I believe that when we read in the scriptures that devils believe, we observe that they recognized Jesus Christ, the Son of God. So they do not have the veil we have. They don't believe in Him because they rejected Him. But they still recognize Him even though they were cast out from His presence.

I believe you are correct. This is my favorite subject at this time in my life, and here is my favorite talk on the matter.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9xfa0 ... lQMUE/edit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Onsdag wrote:

zionminded wrote:

Onsdag wrote:Hmmm... Interesting. Let me ask this - does Satan and those who followed him have a veil placed over them? Are they 'separated' from God?

Great question. I think they do not have a veil, however, they are much less spiritually evolved, so the power evil spirits posses is rather small. They are masters at reading and manipulating people however.

Thank you. So, if I'm understanding you correctly, based upon what you taught in the first post, then because they do not have a veil then it must follow that Satan and his followers have choosen to faithfully believe in God and therefore freely dwell in His presence?

No, they faithfully choose to NOT follow God. Just because they veil isn't removed for them, doesn't mean they choose Him. Now, its possible, beyond my experiences or understanding or what has been written in scripture, the degree that they self blind (a veil of sort).

marc wrote:I believe that when we read in the scriptures that devils believe, we observe that they recognized Jesus Christ, the Son of God. So they do not have the veil we have. They don't believe in Him because they rejected Him. But they still recognize Him even though they were cast out from His presence.

But according to the premise of zionminded, and which premise (correct me if I'm wrong) you seem to agree with also, the "veil" equates to "separation" from God. "Separation" has also been defined in the first post as "sin" and that through "knowledge," "faith," and "obedience" to God's commands we can rend the "veil" and come back into His presence. If this is true then you are faced with quite a challenge in explaining how Satan and other fallen spirits "do not have the veil" while at the same time being "cast out from His presence." If Satan does not have a veil then, according to zionminded's "testimony through sacred experiences [that] these things are true," it must also be true that Satan dwells in God's presence because of his "knowledge," "faith," and "obedience" to God's commands. If, on the other hand, Satan is no longer in God's presence because of sin and rebellion then according to this same premise it must also be true that Satan does indeed have a veil placed upon him. Furthermore, didn't Christ himself have a veil placed upon him? According to this theory then Christ must be a sinner himself.

I cannot agree with such a premise. I know that Satan was cast out of heaven and that there is no veil (at least in the sense spoken of in this thread) upon him. I also know that Jesus Christ was a sinless and perfect man, who took upon himself a mortal body and in the process also had a veil placed upon him because the scriptures testify that he had to learn and grow himself until he could once again return to God's presence. Therefore what has been taught and testified as "true" (in the sacred name of Jesus Christ no less) by zionminded in the first post is in fact false doctrine.

Onsdag, respectively, I believe your over thinking this.

I don't wish to debate it, I'm not looking for everybody to agree with me... I hope it was helpful to others. Thank you for your comments.

marc wrote:

Ether 4:15 Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.

Unbelief is a word used 70+ times in the scriptures.

By the way, Unbelief is not the opposite of belief. It is believing false things, lies and or blocking beliefs that stop this process as described in Ether.

zionminded wrote:Onsdag, respectively, I believe your over thinking this.

I don't wish to debate it, I'm not looking for everybody to agree with me... I hope it was helpful to others. Thank you for your comments.

Debating helps us to understand and learn from others. It can also help us to know and better understand our positions and beliefs. Debating can help us to learn truths and expose falsehoods. There is nothing wrong with debating, so long as it is done respectfully and righteously.

I asked the questions I did so I could better understand your thoughts, get you to think about what you are saying, and help all of us come to learn truth.

For what it's worth, and to forward the discussion, I believe there are multiple "veils." Just from a quick study of the scriptures there seems to be at least five different veils:

A veil of darkness, which Satan controls (see Moses 7:26,57,61).
A veil of unbelief and/or knowledge, which we control (see Alma 19:6; Ether 3:6,19-20; 4:15; 12:19-21; D&C 67:10; 110:1; 2 Corinthians 3:14-16).
A veil of hiding, which God controls (see D&C 38:7-8; 101:23-26).
And, according to latter-day revelation, a veil of forgetfulness, which seems to be put in place by God as part of our mortal life and probationary test (see Abraham 3:24-26).
And finally, symbolically, Christ is referred to as a veil, and only through Him can we enter the Holy of Holies (see Hebrews 6:17-20; 10:19-20; 2 Nephi 9:41).

I appreciate Onsdag's observations, I do believe Jesus had a veil, though obviously pierced it early/often.
For me the veil is an important part of God's plan of agency, and will not be fully pierced until agency has run its course. It is a good and vital thing, though I will be overjoyed when the darn thing is gone.

I do believe that even after death, the veil is not 100% pierced, especially for those in spirit prison. Agency has not run its course.

I suspect that the way to remove the veil early is to have your agency run its course early. This will probably involve harsh trial.

Outsider's ideas.

I don't think the LDS concept of a veil in the context of the loss of knowledge of a prior existence (or pre-existence) is the same as separation. I think can still have the veil and not be separated from the Lord at the same time. The veil is a necessity, just as much as anything else.

I think that in the pre-existence everyone knew themselves, and knew how they would react in a given situation. They chose then where they would be and what they would do in this life. HOWEVER...you cannot be judged upon things which you HAVE NOT DONE. In otherwords, just because you planned it out, you had not acted upon that plan.

You must act in order to be judged, in this accord.

So, in the first instance, we planned on being here with the veil fully in place, and planned accordingly. In essence, because of that, all we have in this life is one choice, that of choosing either good or evil. We choose each day, but all those choices have been planned before and anticipated. We ARE choosing, but they are choices which we KNEW we would choose. What remains is to see whether we actually will choose the good or choose the evil.

So how does the veil follow this? Even though we knew how we probably would act and do, as did the Lord, we had not actually done anything or acted as of yet.

The veil is necessary for ONE reason, at least in my opinion.

The hardest part is explaining this. Imagine you had ultimate power. You could do anything you wanted on this earth. The old adage goes, absolute power absolutely corrupts.

How would you know to trust someone. It goes down to the very core of WHAT that person is. It cannot be predicated upon what they know or how they've acted before, because if power corrupts, that doesn't matter. What DOES matter is who that person REALLY is. Is that person actually corruptible. At the very center of who they are, will they choose to do evil.

You have to find out WHO they are...not from what they already know, but if everything else is only left to them, how they will act.

The ONLY way to find out who someone is, is to remove all that they already are. Basically, a test of what they really are at the core.

For instance, you can see in babies and infants actions and desires. This is the raw person of who they are. As they grow up and learn, they may hide these raw emotions away and it becomes harder to tell who they really are underneath, but in essence, what they were as infants is what they probably are as adults.

It is this raw necessity, to see how one will act when they do NOT have the influence of that which came before, in order to know how they will act on their own.

Only by this, and finding if someone is corruptible or not can you really say...if I were to grant this person absolute power over this earth and everyone on it, can they be trusted.

Hence the veil is not a separation, but a forgetting in order to be able to actually implement the test of your character. To see if you are worthy to enter and attain that absolute power (and from Mormon theology, that's exactly what I see the ultimate reward as being).

Can it be broken? Anything can be done if you have enough faith, but to have that faith you first must show that true character of self. Hence, the reward is a consequence of action. I don't necessarily see the veil as a separation, as you can have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost (according to Mormon doctrine) and even feel the presence of the Lord if you are righteous. You won't have the veil of knowledge or lack of it lifted necessarily in these instances, but you are definitely NOT separated.

Hence, that's my understanding of the veil and why it is there according to my understanding of Mormon theology (which is expanding all the time).

Adding, in that light, you COULD say we created the veil. However, we created it because we KNEW we needed to have it in order for a successful test (much like coming to this life and knowing almost all of us would sin). However, I don't know if I would necessarily say that particular veil is caused by unbelief (though as per the scriptures, there is a veil of unbelief which is probably similar to a veil of ignorance that this particular reference is too).