LDS Freedom Forum

I have never managed to discover this, to my own satisfaction. Do the LDS believe heaven is earned, or given?

Thanks for your insights, 2RM

I think most Mormons SAY they believe attaining heaven is based on Christ's Grace, but they BEHAVE as if it's all on them and their works.

The heart is a tricky thing to judge, but external works are easy to use as a measure if righteousness. HT percentage, #of trips to the temple, tithing on gross etc etc etc don't get you there without Grace.

The question isn't really valid, as I have never met another Christian who believes in the either/or

We do not believe anything different in this regard than any other Christian.

Salvation comes through God's grace. There are things we have to do in order to receive that gift.

Christ said a person has to be born of the water and of the spirit to go to the kingdom of God.

A person has to chose.

Here is an expanded description found in the Doctrine and Covenants Section 76

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testa ... 6?lang=eng

Sons of Perdition go to Hell:
35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

Celestial Kingdom:
51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—

52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;

53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

Terrestrial Kingdom:
74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.

75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.

76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.

Telestial Kingdom:
81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.

85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

2ndRateMind wrote:I have never managed to discover this, to my own satisfaction. Do the LDS believe heaven is earned, or given?

Thanks for your insights, 2RM

Neither. It is like asking if our relationship with God is given or earned. God offers his love freely. We choose whether or not go accept it. But that doesn't make it free, and it isn't "given," because the onus is on us to act because God is immovable and unchangeable.

D&C 76: 96
" And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory of the sun."

There is only 1 kingdom where the presence of Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father will be, and that is the highest level in the celestial kingdom.

Serragon wrote:The question isn't really valid, as I have never met another Christian who believes in the either/or

We do not believe anything different in this regard than any other Christian.

Salvation comes through God's grace. There are things we have to do in order to receive that gift.

No one said the question was valid. If we only answered valid questions, this place would barely ever have a comment...

2ndRateMind wrote:I have never managed to discover this, to my own satisfaction. Do the LDS believe heaven is earned, or given?

Thanks for your insights, 2RM

The correct answer is both.

It is given, in the since that no one is never worth of heaven but by the grace of Jesus Christ we are forgiven and made worth.
It is earned, in that the degree of heaven to which one attains is awarded based on works (earned). D&C 76:50-119

What is heaven?
What are the conditions/constraints/laws to living there?
How do you get there?

You can't do it without Grace...and you can't do it without becoming capable of living the laws. Thus it is personal effort to repent (change). You wouldn't be able to repent or change except through the atonement of Jesus Christ. Change to what? Becoming obedient to the laws of Heaven or more specifically the Celestial Kingdom.

Thus no man is capable of being saved except through Jesus Christ since no man is capable of starting out perfectly obedient. And no man is capable of being saved who does not make the effort to repent and become perfectly obedient.

The gospel is our Heavenly Father's plan of happiness. The central doctrine of the gospel is the Atonement of Jesus Christ. The Prophet Joseph Smith said, “The first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost” (Articles of Faith 1:4).
Additional Information

In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us to be exalted in the celestial kingdom. The Savior has promised that if we endure to the end, faithfully living the gospel, He will hold us guiltless before the Father at the Final Judgment (see 3 Nephi 27:16).

https://www.lds.org/topics/gospel?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hebrews 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

4 ...and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost...

4 Nephi 1: 3 And they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift.

D&C 6:13 If thou wilt do good, yea, and hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation.

Gifts are given, but we must receive them. God does not and will never force us to receive His gifts.

Most LDS people will say one earns it based on their good works and then Christ's grace will make up the mistakes. Sadly this isn't quite right.

Heaven is not earned, it is where people "be" based on who they have become; which process comes through obedience and applying the principles of the atonement and the grace of Christ. Heaven isn't a place walled off from others who don't qualify to enter, rather its a place (or many places) where only those like God will choose to go because of who they are. Its more about who you are, not where you go. Its more about what you become, not what you did or didn't do.

LDS theology is the most liberal in this way, even though many LDS people stumble on this point; while the vast majority of Christian churches teach either strong dogmatic qualification and punitive damnation or grace for all regardless of who you become.

bornfree wrote:D&C 76: 96
" And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory of the sun."

There is only 1 kingdom where the presence of Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father will be, and that is the highest level in the celestial kingdom.

This is a very basic answer, the reality is much more complex.

Obrien wrote:I think most Mormons SAY they believe attaining heaven is based on Christ's Grace, but they BEHAVE as if it's all on them and their works.

The heart is a tricky thing to judge, but external works are easy to use as a measure if righteousness. HT percentage, #of trips to the temple, tithing on gross etc etc etc don't get you there without Grace.

The big problem in this form of teaching, is that one is saying you must "earn" the grace of Christ. Which isn't true. We all get His grace 100%, but we may not all use it to change who we are from the "natural man" to one who is like our elder brother Christ, Father and/or Mother.

2ndRateMind wrote:I have never managed to discover this, to my own satisfaction. Do the LDS believe heaven is earned, or given?

Thanks for your insights, 2RM

We haven't been able to discover it either.

zionminded wrote:Heaven is not earned, it is where people "be" based on who they have become; which process comes through obedience and applying the principles of the atonement and the grace of Christ.

Hmmmm, obedience and applying...Is not doing?

lemuel wrote:

2ndRateMind wrote:I have never managed to discover this, to my own satisfaction. Do the LDS believe heaven is earned, or given?

Thanks for your insights, 2RM

We haven't been able to discover it either.

Where you been Lemuel?

rewcox wrote:

zionminded wrote:Heaven is not earned, it is where people "be" based on who they have become; which process comes through obedience and applying the principles of the atonement and the grace of Christ.

Hmmmm, obedience and applying...Is not doing?

We don't "do" things to earn Christ's grace, we do things because we can become like Christ through covenants and obedience. His grace is always at work, 100%.

I like how zionminded described it. It's almost like asking if peace is something you earn or are given.
"Hey, honey, where are u going?"
"I'm gonna go earn some peace today!"
or
"Happy Birthday, I have a gift for you - open it- it's peace!"

If the kingdom of God is within us, we could truly feel the elation of love and hope and joy and literally be in heaven no matter where we are. I think heaven is something we can experience here on earth.
In regards to grace vs works, yeah, I'm still trying to figure that one out myself. I feel like we're looking at it the wrong way, though, as has already been stated earlier in this thread.

zionminded wrote:

rewcox wrote:

zionminded wrote:Heaven is not earned, it is where people "be" based on who they have become; which process comes through obedience and applying the principles of the atonement and the grace of Christ.

Hmmmm, obedience and applying...Is not doing?

We don't "do" things to earn Christ's grace, we do things because we can become like Christ through covenants and obedience. His grace is always at work, 100%.

So we do, Do? Nephi say:

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

So we do!

zionminded wrote:Heaven is not earned, it is where people "be" based on who they have become; which process comes through obedience and applying the principles of the atonement and the grace of Christ. Heaven isn't a place walled off from others who don't qualify to enter, rather its a place (or many places) where only those like God will choose to go because of who they are. Its more about who you are, not where you go. Its more about what you become, not what you did or didn't do.

This.

Christ's grace allows us to grow and become like Christ. That is how we become saved. Jesus Christ is the example of what a saved being looks like. You turn the other cheek. You possess charity. You give to them that ask according to their wants. You return love for railing. You lay down your life for your fellow man. Because He purchased us with His blood, He has claim on mercy. And He is merciful to those who show mercy, etc.

Being saved is not something you earn. It is something you become. By becoming, you manifest the kind of society, whose company you will most naturally keep. Christ paid the price for each time you get it wrong until you get it right, if you choose discipleship. It means not judging. It means giving. It means loving. It means all the things Christ said to become because that is what He became and what every saved person looks like. Anyone can do, even unwillingly and by compulsion. But not everyone will of their own free will do to become. If you walk into heaven, it is because the kingdom of heaven is already within you.

rewcox wrote:

zionminded wrote:

rewcox wrote:

zionminded wrote:Heaven is not earned, it is where people "be" based on who they have become; which process comes through obedience and applying the principles of the atonement and the grace of Christ.

Hmmmm, obedience and applying...Is not doing?

We don't "do" things to earn Christ's grace, we do things because we can become like Christ through covenants and obedience. His grace is always at work, 100%.

So we do, Do? Nephi say:

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

So we do!

I would highly recommend watching this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVUPWd7s-4c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think he does a good way to explain it. I will also testify from my own personal experience that Brad (in the link), is right on the money.

zionminded wrote:

rewcox wrote: Hmmmm, obedience and applying...Is not doing?

zionminded wrote:

rewcox wrote:

zionminded wrote:Heaven is not earned, it is where people "be" based on who they have become; which process comes through obedience and applying the principles of the atonement and the grace of Christ.

We don't "do" things to earn Christ's grace, we do things because we can become like Christ through covenants and obedience. His grace is always at work, 100%.

So we do, Do? Nephi say:

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

So we do!

I would highly recommend watching this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVUPWd7s-4c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think he does a good way to explain it. I will also testify from my own personal experience that Brad (in the link), is right on the money.

Money is Babylonian. I don't think you want to do that.

zionminded wrote:Most LDS people will say one earns it based on their good works and then Christ's grace will make up the mistakes. Sadly this isn't quite right.

Heaven is not earned, it is where people "be" based on who they have become; which process comes through obedience and applying the principles of the atonement and the grace of Christ. Heaven isn't a place walled off from others who don't qualify to enter, rather its a place (or many places) where only those like God will choose to go because of who they are. Its more about who you are, not where you go. Its more about what you become, not what you did or didn't do.

LDS theology is the most liberal in this way, even though many LDS people stumble on this point; while the vast majority of Christian churches teach either strong dogmatic qualification and punitive damnation or grace for all regardless of who you become.

Just an argument over perceptions. I agree with you wholeheartedly on its about who you are and who you are trying to become rather than what you've done or not done.

One has to work to repent and be obedient (put forth good works)...if you do not do this you will not be saved...period...end of story.

This is only possible through Jesus Christ who provided an opportunity for repentance/change (ultimately not having to pay for sins if we repent)....and if not for Jesus Christ we could not be saved...period...end of story.

Most LDS people I've come across in multiple decades of worshiping and fellowshipping and involvement in one capacity or another....get this.

Heaven is earned in a sense because its based upon individual effort to become and then continue to be obedient (endure to the end). Jesus Christ paid the price....its done...now its on us to go the distance. This is based on your agency and individual effort. You determine your destiny and salvation.

That said...we only enter as humble contrite little children who are obedient to the Master...and recognize we would not have that opportunity except for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

butterfly wrote:I like how zionminded described it. It's almost like asking if peace is something you earn or are given.
"Hey, honey, where are u going?"
"I'm gonna go earn some peace today!"
or
"Happy Birthday, I have a gift for you - open it- it's peace!"

If the kingdom of God is within us, we could truly feel the elation of love and hope and joy and literally be in heaven no matter where we are. I think heaven is something we can experience here on earth.
In regards to grace vs works, yeah, I'm still trying to figure that one out myself. I feel like we're looking at it the wrong way, though, as has already been stated earlier in this thread.

Peace comes from obedience...in a sense you do earn it by your daily decisions (or not earn it). What zionminded said (as I read) is that its 100% available to you...and it comes down to whether you choose to take advantage of that grace and become obedient...or not.

And no you won't get it no matter where you are...because if you are not where you are supposed to be....you won't be entitled to it.

Brad Wilcox description of doing is perfect. One way is working to pay the rent, the other is working to own the home. That video is really spot on.