LDS Freedom Forum

davedan wrote:1. The problem with current economics is that money has been gold or oil-backed or fiat. The problem is that not all countries have gold or oil or "we say so".

2. Next, fractional reserve lending lets the big banks create money from nothing and lets the little banks fail if there is a bank run, stock market crash or housing default. Banks lose fractional reserves and become insolvent.

Solution = (Constitutional) Safety Society System
1. Congress via US Treasury coins/prints/creates all money
2. Every country creates its own currency
3. Full reserve lending
4. Local banks (safety societies) lend only for real assets like land and houses and building etc
5. The land, houses, buildings, developement is the backing for the money creation
6. Since every country has land and every country can build buildings, every country has full control of their own credit and currency.
7. Treasury charges a simple prime interest rate.
8. Non-profit local Safety Society charge loan origination fee
9. Missed payment is deducted from equity (built-in reverse mortgage mortgage insurance)
10. default occurs when all equity is lost and SSS repossesses real asset.
11. prices of everything based on quantity and quality of labor required to produce and deliver priduct or service and not scarcity.
12. apprentice, journeyman, mastercraftsman pay scale

My issue with this is where does the interest come from (no.7)?
If the money is based on the real value of a created asset (a building for example), how can interest be conjured up? Where does it come from if nobody is creating any money other than that which is fixed to real assets?

Interest is a function of time. People generally want things now rather than later and in order to get them to take it later prefer to be paid a premium for waiting - interest. Really nothing wrong with interest. Usury is extracting from the poor.

A good discussion on this topic in general is:
http://www.garynorth.com/HonestMoney.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

See chapter 7 on usury and interest.

Separatist wrote:
Freedom and capital accumulation would help the poor.

While I agree with you about 'men of system', and do not see where my initiative invokes such a horrible individual, I think the above quote is our real bone of contention.

'Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow'. The freedom for the rich to accumulate wealth, in a world of finite resources, is the lack of freedom for the poor who need them more to gather them in. I do not see how the accumulation of wealth by a few in any way aids the absolutely poor. To be sure, large sums are needed to fund corporate, corporation endeavours. But why should such sums not be gathered from many investing a little, rather than a few investing much? I do not see that this would be any the less effective. But now you have me implying that the freedom of the rich needs curtailing. I am not proposing that, only that they voluntarily donate their excess of wealth to economic development in the developing world.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Separatist wrote:The idea is not efficiency. That's more of a neoclassical view. I'm more concerned with liberty.

Another one that is dependent upon people being at a certain stage in terms of how they choose to conduct themselves.

Separatist wrote:We can share and work together, with many tools. Your ideas of idle resources is Keynesian 101. Recommend: WH Hutt's Theory of Idle Resources, a refutation of this Keynesian idea.

Shall we have one tool, a toilet, per one hundred families?, so as to keep it constantly working? Non sensical. So is the idea we have too many tools, and some should cut back. Lots of tools doesn't keep us from working together.

The sharing economy will take care of this. Right now I'm working on an app, AirPnPoo, sort of an Airbnb of toilets where you can rent out your toilet.

2ndRateMind wrote:

Desert Roses wrote:
Hmmm. By your figures then, my husband and I would have to sell our home in Southern Utah and move to some rural place where homes cost only $66,000. ... I'm not at all convinced that my diminishing my already modest life will benefit any of those in the nations of the world that suffer. They suffer not because of my greed or wealth, but because of the political corruption and greed of their own leaders. When you can change that, then the rest may actually happen. I expect that to remain or become worse until the real King arrives.

As I said, this is a voluntary scheme. I am aware that LDS people already do quite considerable good work amongst the poor. If your circumstances make this kind of arrangement unworkable for you, then by all means skip it, and do other good things instead.

Just on the matter of house prices, though. Clearly, they are not equal everywhere, because money is not evenly distributed, everywhere. If it was, we could expect houses in the nature of what people need and could afford, rather than the inflated values that afflict many property markets today.

Finally, I am not persuaded that we can blame corruption and the greed of leaders for all of absolute poverty. Certainly they are factors. But I am always suspicious of sentiments along the lines of 'There is no point in helping the poor because of corruption/bad governance/fecklessness/absent property laws/vicious wars/gang rule/addiction*' It always smacks to me of an excuse to do nothing, rather than, as I see it, a challenge to be tackled.

Best wishes, 2RM

*insert your favorite

Which is why the fast offering and humanitarian systems of the LDS church are the perfect vehicle for helping the poor. No money goes to pay extravagant salaries to CEOs, nothing for "overhead". All that I give (which what the active Latter day Saint gives in fast offering etc. in comparison to what the average American gives for the poor is substantially more) goes directly to the needs of the poor around the world and here in my community. Few if any other charities can do this.

Buy some land, build big rooms ("houses") around a few central rooms, buy in together considering everyone's needs, limits, abilities. As Jason has said, you really could save a BIG bundle on lots of things.

My issue with this is where does the interest come from (no.7)? If the money is based on the real value of a created asset (a building for example), how can interest be conjured up? Where does it come from if nobody is creating any money other than that which is fixed to real assets?

There has to be some simple interest on loans as this constitutes a fee on money usage, generates revenue in place of income tax, makes saving money better than borrowing, and is the constitutional mechanism to regulate the value of currency by regulating the money supply.

There are other sources of treasury money creation such as printing based on gold or silver or platinum or other real asset. Gold backinig isnt wrong, its just insufficient by itself.

There is also the issue of velocity where 1 printed/created dollar equals 3-5 printed dollars as it circulates in the economy before being returned and retired (loan repayment not just physical currency).

So, let's stop and think a little, about what an equitable world might look like, where everyone pledges their excess of wealth away, and no one is left behind.

No private jets. No one malnourished, or dieing of hunger.
No private Caribbean islands. No one dieing of preventable diseases.
No gin-palace yachts. Everyone educated at least to primary level - reading, writing, arithmetic.
No multi-million dollar hobby ranches. Universal sanitation and clean water.
No extravagant fashion. Property and land at affordable prices.
No economic wars. Political egalitarianism.

Wouldn't all this be pleasing to God? It would certainly please me.

Cheers, 2RM.

Desert Roses wrote:
Which is why the fast offering and humanitarian systems of the LDS church are the perfect vehicle for helping the poor... All that I give (which what the active Latter day Saint gives in fast offering etc. in comparison to what the average American gives for the poor is substantially more) goes directly to the needs of the poor around the world and here in my community. Few if any other charities can do this.

Bravo! I applaud your efforts, and, indeed, the efforts of all Americans, who even in their vanilla, non-Mormon state, are among the most generous of peoples.

Best wishes, 2RM.

So, this thread has gone a little quiet, for a while. Can I take it then, that we are all in agreement about the radical redistribution of wealth, from where it buys luxury, to where it satisfies need?

Best wishes, 2RM

Well, I don't normally spend a lot of time talking to myself, which is famously the first sign of madness. But seeing as no one wants to discuss this with me directly, I thought I'd let you all know how I am getting on with my earlier pledge to you, anyway.

In English £ sterling, my allocation of the world's income would be £9,500.00 per year almost exactly, at current exchange rates. My net worth allocation would be £21,437.00. My net worth is currently slightly negative, so I don't need to worry about that for a while. But my income is £11,121.00 per year, which means I have to find £32.00 per week from my budget to give away to the poor. Some of this money will come from my debt repayments, which are around £13.00 a week. As my debts are finished, so that money will go to charity.

I currently have two charities in mind, but am still on the lookout for other worthy causes. I prefer small projects to international NGOs; if you are aware of any, please let me know.

1. I plan to sponsor a child in Sri Lanka, which will cost £15.00 per month, or £0.50 per day. (Google 'sponsor a girl', if you are interested).
2. I have a microfinance charity in mind, which lends directly to poor people with businesses who need a small cash injection. As the money is lent, not given, it is repaid and may be lent and relent many times, helping many people, before, inevitably, defaults and exchange rate fluctuations and inflation depreciate it to nothing. That will come to £24 per month, approx. (Google 'Deki', if you are interested).

Why am I telling you this? Not to boast; I am sure many of you are doing more. Just to keep you informed, and let you know I have not forgotten my pledge to you, and still take it seriously.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Right hand, left hand.

Please distribute your wealth as you wish. Once you've gone beyond that, you've erred.

Uh huh. But, for reasons which will become clear in due course, I intend to be 100% transparent about this pledge. I do not expect the same of anyone else.

Best wishes, 2RM.

2ndRateMind,,

I would not consider it bragging to declare your intentions. In fact, I have more respect for those who can show that they "Walk the Talk", than for those who endlessly talk.

I also conclude that with all of those funny looking L's you use to describe money, that you must live on the OTHER side of the pond.

I assume that your income is 11,121 and your calculated share of the world's income is 9,500. So you plan to give the difference. Good for you!. But what if you can live on less than 9,500, would it not be better to give more than the difference? You seem to be frustrated at not being able to do this because of your debt. Well I can't tell you whether or not this was foolish debt, or necessary to cover needed expense. That being said. It does provide the reason you are not and at least for now cannot give what you have determined as "your fair share". It would be terrible if some power decided to take it away from you because you have more than your fair share.

From an LDS perspective, that which you earn is your stewardship, and God has given us guidance to give all that we can spare (and for those who have trouble figuring out what that is... at least 10%). You are the one who can best determine how much you need and how much you can spare, and it is up to use to be as charitable as you can.

However, you don't know any one else's situation any more that I know yours, so you should neither determine how much others should give, nor criticize them if it isn't up to your expectations.


Bottom line. You set a goal to give 13.00 a week. Good! You can't actually do it. Does that mean you are selfish? I don't know, probably not. It is good to set goals. That is how we progress. If this works for you Great!
Regards,

George Clay

2ndRateMind wrote:So, this thread has gone a little quiet, for a while. Can I take it then, that we are all in agreement about the radical redistribution of wealth, from where it buys luxury, to where it satisfies need?

Best wishes, 2RM

No.

2EstablishZion wrote:

2ndRateMind wrote:So, this thread has gone a little quiet, for a while. Can I take it then, that we are all in agreement about the radical redistribution of wealth, from where it buys luxury, to where it satisfies need?

Best wishes, 2RM

No.

And your rationale would be?

According to Oxfam, the 80 richest people in the world have the same amount of wealth as the 3,500,000,000 poorest. This is clearly obscene. I truly do not see how a Christian can accept the situation, and not choke on their communion wafer.

Cheers, 2RM.

Thanks for your support, George. I truly value it.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Instead of giving money away, apart from a generous fast offering and tithing, we can help people in other ways. Giving money and cars to people doesn't help them very much or for very long (tried it a few times). I had another idea:

Instead of investing in the stock market and giving the Gadianton's my money and sharing in their spoils. I buy real estate. If I don't need the rent, I just have my renters pay cost of living there (home shield insurance, property tax, home insurance, HOA fee, utilities).

The renters are also expected to do home repairs, and keep the yard, but the home shield covers the big stuff.

2ndRateMind,

I think the point of DaveDan's post, and the encouragement I was giving you was for each of us to focus on what WE can do with our stewardship to make the world better. Each of us has different resources, and each of us can find a different way to help one another. Don't focus on what you see as inequalities and injustice. Focus on what you can do.

Also, things are different from place to place. You would be living on the street, in San Francisco with what you say you have. However, you would be among those filthy rich you hate if you lived in Sierra Leon.

So focus on what you can do to make a better world, and don't spend your time fretting about perceived failures in others, or unfairness in the system.

Regards,

George Clay

Yes, George, I agree with what you say. And, it seems to me, the best thing I can do is live out my life on an equitable share of the world's wealth, and witness to that, and prove it can be done, even in the first world among inflated property prices and high costs of living. I do not fret about others; their salvation is their own concern. I merely wish to blaze a trail.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Lets extrapolate here to make the subject matter more easily understood. Do you demand that God redistributes his wealth to you and make you equal with him through no effort of your own (and the same goes for anyone else that should be made equal). That is a devil principle that is all there is to it. I just hope it's all ignorance. In a few years time when Gods portion have again increased by his own wisdom and yours have diminished through your own ignorance so that you are poor once again. Will you demand equality with God again? This is foolishness.

Remember nothing in this world is truly ours. We are only stewards. Try to be a wise one.

Matthew 13:12
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

Dear Hogmeister

It is certain that, taken in context, your reference is concerned with spiritual knowledge, not any financial status:

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

Matthew 13:10-14 KJV

So, I am entirely unclear as to the relevance of your meaning. I am sure you can explain yourself better. Please do so, so that I can respond with all due respect.

Best wishes, 2RM.

2ndRateMind wrote:Dear Hogmeister

It is certain that, taken in context, your reference is concerned with spiritual knowledge, not any financial status:

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

Matthew 13:10-14 KJV

So, I am entirely unclear as to the relevance of your meaning. I am sure you can explain yourself better. Please do so, so that I can respond with all due respect.

Best wishes, 2RM.

I take it that you do not believe that wisdom and knowledge should correlate to temporal success. On the other hand, great way to avoid the subject. ;)

Exodus 20:17
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his @#$, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

"You take these very characters who are so anxious for the poor, and
what would they tell us? Just what they told us back yonder--"Sell your
feather beds, your gold rings, ear rings, breast pins, necklaces, your
silver tea spoons or table spoons, or anything valuable that you have in
the world, to help the poor." I recollect once the people wanted to sell
their jewellery to help the poor; I told them that would not help them.
The people wanted to sell such things so that they might be able to bring
into camp three, ten, or a hundred bushels of corn meal. Then they would
sit down and eat it up, and they would have nothing with which to buy
another hundred bushels of meal, and would be just where they started. My
advice was for them to keep their jewellery and valuables, and to set the
poor to work--setting out orchards, splitting rails, digging ditches,
making fences, or anything useful, and so enable them to buy meal and
flour and the necessaries of life.

A great many good men would say to me--"Br. Brigham, you have a gold
ring on your finger, why not give it to the poor?" Because to do so would
make them worse off. Go to work and get a gold ring, then you will have
yours and I will have mine. That will adorn your body. Not that I care
anything about a gold ring. I do not have a gold ring on my finger
perhaps once in a year.

You who are poor and want me to sell that ring, go to work and I will
dictate you how to make yourselves comfortable, and how to adorn your
bodies and become delightful. But no, in many instances you would
say--"We will not have your counsel, we want your money and your
property." This is not what the Lord wants of us.

There was a certain class of men called Socialists, or Communists,
organized, I believe, in France. I remember there was a very smart man,
by the name of M. Cabot, came over with a company of several hundreds.
When they came to America they found the City of Nauvoo deserted and
forsaken by the "Mormons," who had been driven away. They set themselves
down there where we had built our fine houses, and made our farms and
gardens, and made ourselves rich by the labor of our own hands, and they
had to send back year by year to France for money to assist them to
sustain themselves. We went there naked and barefoot, and had wisdom
enough, under the dictation of the Prophet, to build up a beautiful city
and temple by our own economy and industry without owing a cent for it.
We came to these mountains naked and barefoot. Are you not speaking
figuratively? Yes, I am, for it was only the figure that got got [sic]
here, for, comparatively, we left ourselves behind. We lived on rawhide
as long we could get it, but when it came to the wolf beef it was pretty
tough. We lived, however, and built a fort, and built our houses inside
the fort. Then we commenced our gardens, we planted our corn, wheat, rye,
buckwheat, oats, potatoes, beets, carrots, onions, parsnips, and we
planted our peach and apple seeds, and we got grapes and strawberries, and
currants from the mountains. The seeds grew, and so did the Latter-day
Saints, and we are here to-day."

...

"Shall I make an application of this? If you please I will. The Lord
owns the heavens and the earth, all things are His, and He delights to
give them to His children, and He would much sooner that they should enjoy
the good things of the earth than that they should not do so, if they
would use them for the accomplishment of His purposes. It would cheer and
comfort His heart to see all the Latter-day Saints combined in their
efforts to promote His kingdom instead of promoting the kingdoms of this
world. But we are but children, and the Lord is merciful, gracious, and
long-suffering to His people and to all the inhabitants of the earth. We
are all His children--saint or sinner, it makes not difference. Every son
and daughter of Adam and Eve that ever came on this earth is the offspring
of that God who lives in the heavens whom we serve and acknowledge. How
merciful He is to His children! To see the wicked flourish like a green
bay tree, and see the nations of the earth that oppose Him, set at naught
all His counsel and will have none of His reproof, and spurn His servants,
yet see how merciful He is to them. But let me say that the time is now
at hand when the chastening hand of the Almighty will be upon the nations
of the earth. He has commenced His work. Through His kind providences He
has ordained that it should commence here where it commenced in the
morning of creation. On this continent He will wind up His work; from
here He will send the gospel of Jesus Christ to the uttermost parts of the
earth, and woe to the nation that rejects it, and that persecutes and
slays His servants; they will have to pay the debt."

...

"Now, if you will please to hearken and hear, you Latter-day Saints,
do not spend another dollar with an apostate, neither in this city nor in
any other. Will we purchase from outsiders? Yes, and call them ladies
and gentlemen, because many of them are the friends of God if they did but
know it. There are plenty in the world who want to be, but very few come
here except these apostates, who would sap the fountain of the Kingdom of
God, and destroy all that was virtuous and truthful on the earth, like
many others who never come into the Church. Let them alone. Will you
sell them your wheat? No, sir; if you do--but remember you can do just as
you please. I will not injure you, nor speak, nor even think evil of you,
but my prayer will ever be--"O, God, the eternal Father, I ask Thee, in
the name of Thy Son Jesus Christ, to save the righteous, and let the
wicked and the ungodly go to their place and share the reward of their
doings." I will lift my heart to God in your behalf who feel to build up
the kingdoms of this world. You say this is harsh. No, it is not, it is
good policy, to say nothing abut religion. Is it not good policy to trade
with and support our friends? If you go to London, Paris, the German
States, or even in America, do you ever hear a Catholic found fault with
for trading at a store owned by a Catholic? And the same is true with
regard to the Church of England, Methodists, or any other society. It is
good policy and economy to sustain each other. Then why is it not so with
the Latter-day Saints? It is so, and we will do it, so help us God. We
are here because there was no other place on the face of the earth where
we could go and be safe; but here we are all right, and here the Lord
designs that we should stay. By and bye we shall hear the locomotive
whistle, screaming through our valleys, dragging in its train our brethren
and sisters, and taking away and the apostates. "Will not our enemies
overslaugh us when we get the railroad?" No, ladies and gentlemen. Do
you want to know what will take every apostate and corrupt hearted man and
woman from our midst? Live so that the fire of God may be in you and
around about you and burn them out. But if we mingle, fellowship, shake
hands with, and think they are as good as anybody, the Lord says: All
right; you may try it until you are tired. But the Lord has said that He
will gather the pure in heart; they shall come by thousands, and "the
chariots shall rage in the streets, they shall jostle one another in the
broadways, they shall seem like torches, they shall run like the
lightnings." I do not know what the prophet referred to here unless it
was one of those engines. But the Lord will gather up His people, and
fill the land of Zion with those who love and serve Him, and will waste
away the wicked and the ungodly."