LDS Freedom Forum

Came across this quote this morning...

In a conference held at Provo City, Utah Territory, in the year 1867, in the bowery, on the northwest corner of the now Provo Commercial Bank block, President Brigham Young, in the course of a sermon he was delivering to the people, made the following prophecy: "Brethren, this Church will be led onto the very brink of hell by the leaders of this people, then God will raise up the one `Mighty and Strong' (spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine & Covenants) to save and redeem this Church. The sending of this one "Mighty and Strong" the Lord has purposed for the salvation of the honest in heart among his people, and to be the initiative to bring about the great blessing the Lord has in reserve to cause the poor, the lame, the deaf, and the blind to rejoice.

What does it mean to us, to be "honest in heart"?

A recent experience:
We have been looking at homes for awhile, as we have been shown we will be leaving Provo, UT in the Lord's timing and way very soon - and in the course of doing so, we have come across some real estate agents, (all LDS in this case) who, after all is said and done, in the end, care little about us and mostly about money and getting what they feel they are entitled to.

It really shocked me with the last one, as she was very seemingly genuine in her interactions with us (more than most), and was one of a first (for an active LDS) who was very intrigued how we loved the gospel such and that we resigned our membership in the church this year, and we felt cared about our experience. Come to find out, this woman, who we feel sad for in light of this experience, was after all, all about getting her way, and went from someone who was interested in the human relationship to someone who was pushing and shoving to get her way, even trying to force us to see homes she knew we didn't care for (so she could pull the I showed you all these homes card) but aggressively flipped from seemingly someone who wanted our friendship to "you owe me this"!

I genuinely trust people upfront, and the spirit tends to warn me when someone ultimately has, maybe even in the moment, a dishonest motive, desire, or heart... but this repeat experience was another eye opener for me.

Do we as Saints put anything above genuine love towards people, esp. do we put money or objects of acquisition above others? Am I honest in heart with God and my fellow man? If so, how do I maintain that and improve upon it, if not, how do I repent and what is it that invites me to be dishonest in heart with God or my fellow man?

What does it mean to each of us to be Honest in Heart?

Is it too personal to ask what lead you to resign your membership?

As a customer, I have bought and sold approximately 10 homes over the course of my life, and sadly, I have never worked with a Real Estate Agent who put my needs first over his or hers. Half of them were LDS and half were not. It didn't make a bit of difference in how they treated me. Some were more ruthless than others in pursuit of their payday. Some tried to intimidate, bully, or guilt me into purchasing houses that they had shown me that clearly weren't in my best interest to buy, just so they could make a quick sale.

One agent had a good heart and tried honestly to help me, but he was so inexperienced that he kept botching things up when other agents would submit offers on my house and actually cost me the sale on my house because he was too busy spending time with his other job, his family, and his Church calling to respond promptly to other offers. One agent used to insist on driving me around in her car to see houses that were available and then would always stop at a gas station to fill up her car when I was with her. I think she was trying to show me how much money I was costing her so I would hurry up and buy something from her. My conclusion - when money is involved in business negotiations, don't trust anyone who acts like they want to be your friend or says they will give you the best in customer service. If you don't perform as they expect you to (move quickly to put more money in their pocket), you will see them for the fair-weather friend they really are.

I have an Uncle who retired to Logan as a reasonably wealthy man. He bought a new house for about 1/2 Million dollars. Within a few years the foundation split and fell down. He tried to get the contractor to make it good. The contractor refused. He sued. It turned out that his house also had Radon. His wife died of Radon poisoning. The lawyer representing the contractor prevailed over the judge to delay taking a deposition from his wife until the week after she died, so she could not be a witness. They also convinced other witnesses to the Contractor's misconduct to change their testimonies. The building inspector pointed out that Utah law makes no guarantees to protect citizen's against problems from inspections that are not properly conducted.

The bottom line. My uncle spent a fortune in legal fees trying to get justice from the contractor or somebody. His wife died as a result of this house. He then spent another fortune fixing up the house, because his conscience wouldn't let him sell an unsafe house. He then lost another fortune in selling the house because he felt he should be honest to whoever bought it about it's history. He then spent another fortune building another house. He is now broke, in debt and wondering how he is going to live the rest of his retirement.

To make it even worse. Everybody involved in this were "good" active Latter Day Saints, and many in the same Ward, and he had to see them every week in Church. He says Utah has more fraud, and fewer protections against fraud than any other state. He went to the stake president and tried to get him to hold a Church court and at least admonish the crooked contractor, but he was told that "It was just money" and they don't hold courts about that.

He has struggled with his bitterness, but he finally decided that the Church is true, and as bad as so many of the members may be, it is still true, and he has maintained his membership and his faith. Although he has admitted that it wasn't easy.

Regards,

George Clay

gclayjr wrote:I have an Uncle who retired to Logan as a reasonably wealthy man. He bought a new house for about 1/2 Million dollars. Within a few years the foundation split and fell down. He tried to get the contractor to make it good. The contractor refused. He sued. It turned out that his house also had Radon. His wife died of Radon poisoning. The lawyer representing the contractor prevailed over the judge to delay taking a deposition from his wife until the week after she died, so she could not be a witness. They also convinced other witnesses to the Contractor's misconduct to change their testimonies. The building inspector pointed out that Utah law makes no guarantees to protect citizen's against problems from inspections that are not properly conducted.

The bottom line. My uncle spent a fortune in legal fees trying to get justice from the contractor or somebody. His wife died as a result of this house. He then spent another fortune fixing up the house, because his conscience wouldn't let him sell an unsafe house. He then lost another fortune in selling the house because he felt he should be honest to whoever bought it about it's history. He then spent another fortune building another house. He is now broke, in debt and wondering how he is going to live the rest of his retirement.

To make it even worse. Everybody involved in this were "good" active Latter Day Saints, and many in the same Ward, and he had to see them every week in Church. He says Utah has more fraud, and fewer protections against fraud than any other state. He went to the stake president and tried to get him to hold a Church court and at least admonish the crooked contractor, but he was told that "It was just money" and they don't hold courts about that.

He has struggled with his bitterness, but he finally decided that the Church is true, and as bad as so many of the members may be, it is still true, and he has maintained his membership and his faith. Although he has admitted that it wasn't easy.

Regards,

George Clay

What a horrible experience for your Uncle and his wife to have to go through. I am so sorry. Now I understand why some people say, "Never go into business with a friend or relative." If things go bad, you still have to interact with them. That includes our "Ward family" too. That's the worst form of betrayal - betrayal by the few people you should be able to trust.

Matchmaker,

I agree. Also, while I was born in Utah, I have spent most of my life living in "the Mission Field". I can't count the number of friends and associates I know who have moved to Utah, thinking they were moving to "Zion", and then being appalled by the treatment they received, and what they saw, and then leaving the church.

Out here in the Mission Field we have a term "Utah Mormon", and I am afraid it is not particularly complimentary.

Regards,

George Clay

Any of you, including OP, who have had poor experiences with people who HAPPEN to be members of God's Church....fine, whatever.

But to extrapolate that to some sinister criticism of the Gospel or the Lord's prophets is absolutely disgusting. The absolute bias spewing from the OP's post is so obvious. He cannot accept the fact that he has failed his covenants and now he wants to nitpick the Church with some 'negative' experience he had.

Just leave the Church alone and go on your merry way.

It looks like you sent to the wrong service. I think this is more of what you were looking for http://rentafriend.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

MormonPatriot wrote:Any of you, including OP, who have had poor experiences with people who HAPPEN to be members of God's Church....fine, whatever.

But to extrapolate that to some sinister criticism of the Gospel or the Lord's prophets is absolutely disgusting. The absolute bias spewing from the OP's post is so obvious. He cannot accept the fact that he has failed his covenants and now he wants to nitpick the Church with some 'negative' experience he had.

Just leave the Church alone and go on your merry way.

Hast thou but 17 posts and discerned him (OP) already?

I lived in Utah for a while, and although my experience wasn't as bad as George's uncle, I certainly left Utah wondering why my expectations had been so high. To that end, I arrived at the same conclusion: the church is Christ's, the prophets His messengers, and if there's any lesson to be learned, it's that *I* need to hold myself to a higher standard, regardless of what other members are doing.

BTW welcome, and good call, MoPat :ymapplause:

Real estate brokers are like that everywhere. Contractors are like that everywhere. People are like that everywhere.
There are good people and bad people everywhere, in Utah, In California and both in and out of the church.
dc

iWriteStuff wrote:

MormonPatriot wrote:Any of you, including OP, who have had poor experiences with people who HAPPEN to be members of God's Church....fine, whatever.

But to extrapolate that to some sinister criticism of the Gospel or the Lord's prophets is absolutely disgusting. The absolute bias spewing from the OP's post is so obvious. He cannot accept the fact that he has failed his covenants and now he wants to nitpick the Church with some 'negative' experience he had.

Just leave the Church alone and go on your merry way.

Hast thou but 17 posts and discerned him (OP) already?

I lived in Utah for a while, and although my experience wasn't as bad as George's uncle, I certainly left Utah wondering why my expectations had been so high. To that end, I arrived at the same conclusion: the church is Christ's, the prophets His messengers, and if there's any lesson to be learned, it's that *I* need to hold myself to a higher standard, regardless of what other members are doing.

BTW welcome, and good call, MoPat :ymapplause:

IMHO, it's the same mindset that causes men to think that they're "friendzoned:" They mistake cordially for friendship.

MormonPatriot wrote:Any of you, including OP, who have had poor experiences with people who HAPPEN to be members of God's Church....fine, whatever.

But to extrapolate that to some sinister criticism of the Gospel or the Lord's prophets is absolutely disgusting. The absolute bias spewing from the OP's post is so obvious. He cannot accept the fact that he has failed his covenants and now he wants to nitpick the Church with some 'negative' experience he had.

Just leave the Church alone and go on your merry way.

Your enmity toward the OP is palpable. Your choice of words, "sinister criticism, absolutely disgusting, absolute bias spewing, failed his covenants, nitpick the Church with some negative experience," represents a personal attack on this man rather than an honest comment on his original post.

Matchmaker wrote:

MormonPatriot wrote:Any of you, including OP, who have had poor experiences with people who HAPPEN to be members of God's Church....fine, whatever.

But to extrapolate that to some sinister criticism of the Gospel or the Lord's prophets is absolutely disgusting. The absolute bias spewing from the OP's post is so obvious. He cannot accept the fact that he has failed his covenants and now he wants to nitpick the Church with some 'negative' experience he had.

Just leave the Church alone and go on your merry way.

Your enmity toward the OP is palpable. Your choice of words, "sinister criticism, absolutely disgusting, absolute bias spewing, failed his covenants, nitpick the Church with some negative experience," represents a personal attack on this man rather than an honest comment on his original post.

Personal attack? Are you serious. I am responding to his post. He is projecting some sort of rage against the Church onto someone he claims is a member of the Church who treated him poorly in a business transaction. I am not commenting on anything else about this OP.

He is obviously trying to make some larger point about the Church he now hates....I am calling him out on it. I do not see that as personal

iWriteStuff wrote:

MormonPatriot wrote:Any of you, including OP, who have had poor experiences with people who HAPPEN to be members of God's Church....fine, whatever.

But to extrapolate that to some sinister criticism of the Gospel or the Lord's prophets is absolutely disgusting. The absolute bias spewing from the OP's post is so obvious. He cannot accept the fact that he has failed his covenants and now he wants to nitpick the Church with some 'negative' experience he had.

Just leave the Church alone and go on your merry way.

Hast thou but 17 posts and discerned him (OP) already?

I lived in Utah for a while, and although my experience wasn't as bad as George's uncle, I certainly left Utah wondering why my expectations had been so high. To that end, I arrived at the same conclusion: the church is Christ's, the prophets His messengers, and if there's any lesson to be learned, it's that *I* need to hold myself to a higher standard, regardless of what other members are doing.

BTW welcome, and good call, MoPat :ymapplause:

I don't know how long MormonPatriot has been reading posts on the forum, but there have been newly registered members who state that they have been reading as guests for quite awhile before registering. A small number of posts, or recent registration date does not always equate to how long that person has been reading posts.

BrotherOfMahonri wrote:Came across this quote this morning...

In a conference held at Provo City, Utah Territory, in the year 1867, in the bowery, on the northwest corner of the now Provo Commercial Bank block, President Brigham Young, in the course of a sermon he was delivering to the people, made the following prophecy: "Brethren, this Church will be led onto the very brink of hell by the leaders of this people, then God will raise up the one `Mighty and Strong' (spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine & Covenants) to save and redeem this Church. The sending of this one "Mighty and Strong" the Lord has purposed for the salvation of the honest in heart among his people, and to be the initiative to bring about the great blessing the Lord has in reserve to cause the poor, the lame, the deaf, and the blind to rejoice.

What does it mean to us, to be "honest in heart"?

A recent experience:
We have been looking at homes for awhile, as we have been shown we will be leaving Provo, UT in the Lord's timing and way very soon - and in the course of doing so, we have come across some real estate agents, (all LDS in this case) who, after all is said and done, in the end, care little about us and mostly about money and getting what they feel they are entitled to.

It really shocked me with the last one, as she was very seemingly genuine in her interactions with us (more than most), and was one of a first (for an active LDS) who was very intrigued how we loved the gospel such and that we resigned our membership in the church this year, and we felt cared about our experience. Come to find out, this woman, who we feel sad for in light of this experience, was after all, all about getting her way, and went from someone who was interested in the human relationship to someone who was pushing and shoving to get her way, even trying to force us to see homes she knew we didn't care for (so she could pull the I showed you all these homes card) but aggressively flipped from seemingly someone who wanted our friendship to "you owe me this"!

I genuinely trust people upfront, and the spirit tends to warn me when someone ultimately has, maybe even in the moment, a dishonest motive, desire, or heart... but this repeat experience was another eye opener for me.

Do we as Saints put anything above genuine love towards people, esp. do we put money or objects of acquisition above others? Am I honest in heart with God and my fellow man? If so, how do I maintain that and improve upon it, if not, how do I repent and what is it that invites me to be dishonest in heart with God or my fellow man?

What does it mean to each of us to be Honest in Heart?

Wait, now you believe something attributed to Brigham Young? I'm not saying it isn't true, but it is interesting to me how many of his own statements you reject, yet post this second hand account.

I guess that's what happens when you have an ax to grind.

slimjamm wrote:

BrotherOfMahonri wrote:Came across this quote this morning...

In a conference held at Provo City, Utah Territory, in the year 1867, in the bowery, on the northwest corner of the now Provo Commercial Bank block, President Brigham Young, in the course of a sermon he was delivering to the people, made the following prophecy: "Brethren, this Church will be led onto the very brink of hell by the leaders of this people, then God will raise up the one `Mighty and Strong' (spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine & Covenants) to save and redeem this Church. The sending of this one "Mighty and Strong" the Lord has purposed for the salvation of the honest in heart among his people, and to be the initiative to bring about the great blessing the Lord has in reserve to cause the poor, the lame, the deaf, and the blind to rejoice.

What does it mean to us, to be "honest in heart"?

A recent experience:
We have been looking at homes for awhile, as we have been shown we will be leaving Provo, UT in the Lord's timing and way very soon - and in the course of doing so, we have come across some real estate agents, (all LDS in this case) who, after all is said and done, in the end, care little about us and mostly about money and getting what they feel they are entitled to.

It really shocked me with the last one, as she was very seemingly genuine in her interactions with us (more than most), and was one of a first (for an active LDS) who was very intrigued how we loved the gospel such and that we resigned our membership in the church this year, and we felt cared about our experience. Come to find out, this woman, who we feel sad for in light of this experience, was after all, all about getting her way, and went from someone who was interested in the human relationship to someone who was pushing and shoving to get her way, even trying to force us to see homes she knew we didn't care for (so she could pull the I showed you all these homes card) but aggressively flipped from seemingly someone who wanted our friendship to "you owe me this"!

I genuinely trust people upfront, and the spirit tends to warn me when someone ultimately has, maybe even in the moment, a dishonest motive, desire, or heart... but this repeat experience was another eye opener for me.

Do we as Saints put anything above genuine love towards people, esp. do we put money or objects of acquisition above others? Am I honest in heart with God and my fellow man? If so, how do I maintain that and improve upon it, if not, how do I repent and what is it that invites me to be dishonest in heart with God or my fellow man?

What does it mean to each of us to be Honest in Heart?

Wait, now you believe something attributed to Brigham Young? I'm not saying it isn't true, but it is interesting to me how many of his own statements you reject, yet post this second hand account.

And the statement thats most rejected is one that is well documented and was taught in GENERAL CONFERENCE.. hmmpf go figure

One thing I've learned about History is that it's close to impossible to get a sense of who a person really was without an INCREDIBLE amount of time and research into what they say, to whom they were speaking, what the climate was when the words were spoken, and even then, you're still left wondering which historical documents you've read were accurate and which have either been changed over time by one scribe or another, or if the words were written by someone with an axe to grind in the first place. I can read two articles about today's speech by Speaker of the House Paul Ryan and get two completely different stories about what he said.

Brigham Young is certainly one of the more difficult people to nail down. He was one of the greatest leaders in a young America. Wait, he was one of the biggest jerks this country, nay, this WORLD has ever seen. Or maybe he was both at the same time, or some combination.

gclayjr wrote:I have an Uncle who retired to Logan as a reasonably wealthy man. He bought a new house for about 1/2 Million dollars. Within a few years the foundation split and fell down. He tried to get the contractor to make it good. The contractor refused. He sued. It turned out that his house also had Radon. His wife died of Radon poisoning. The lawyer representing the contractor prevailed over the judge to delay taking a deposition from his wife until the week after she died, so she could not be a witness. They also convinced other witnesses to the Contractor's misconduct to change their testimonies. The building inspector pointed out that Utah law makes no guarantees to protect citizen's against problems from inspections that are not properly conducted.

The bottom line. My uncle spent a fortune in legal fees trying to get justice from the contractor or somebody. His wife died as a result of this house. He then spent another fortune fixing up the house, because his conscience wouldn't let him sell an unsafe house. He then lost another fortune in selling the house because he felt he should be honest to whoever bought it about it's history. He then spent another fortune building another house. He is now broke, in debt and wondering how he is going to live the rest of his retirement.

To make it even worse. Everybody involved in this were "good" active Latter Day Saints, and many in the same Ward, and he had to see them every week in Church. He says Utah has more fraud, and fewer protections against fraud than any other state. He went to the stake president and tried to get him to hold a Church court and at least admonish the crooked contractor, but he was told that "It was just money" and they don't hold courts about that.

He has struggled with his bitterness, but he finally decided that the Church is true, and as bad as so many of the members may be, it is still true, and he has maintained his membership and his faith. Although he has admitted that it wasn't easy.

Regards,

George Clay

Sorry about your aunt.
If they moved there after they retired, how would they know it was radon poisoning? There isn't a test to know if you have radon poisoning that I'm aware of. The result of long term radon exposure can be lung cancer. Is that what she died of?
I wonder if you just have your uncles side of the story. If both the judge and the stake president didn't think your uncle had a case, then maybe he didn't have a case. Utah law doesn't require contractors to test for radon and even home inspectors won't test for it unless you pay extra for it and specify you want it. As far as foundation failure, shoddy work would have to be shown. It may not have been the contractors fault if he managed the sub contractors correctly. It may not be the subcontractors fault if the concrete failed. It may not be the mixing companies fault if they mixed it correctly. It shouldn't be hard to see why the foundation failed. If it was from the earth settling it may not be anyone's fault.

As has been mentioned, LDS people are just people, same as everyone else unfortunately.

As to the OP's question, we all know what "Honest in Heart" is. We teach and believe that the Light of Christ is given to all so that we know right from wrong. When we misrepresent to someone else, we're being dishonest. It happens more everyday than most of us would like to admit, even among some of the best of us (a group of which I am not a member.) We all want to think we do the best we can, but we're all faced with the challenges of getting by in this world, providing and caring as best we can for our families. If we bend the truth to protect our families, it does reflect a lack of faith on our part to be truly Christlike, but I don't know a single person ever who has not done so. I doubt I'll ever meet one, as I'm not convinced they exist.

We're commanded to forgive seventy time seven, so we are not supposed to hold grudges, again, not always an easy thing to do. I'm back in Utah against my wishes, so I'm in the belly of the beast, but I have gone through enough that I'm much more likely to overlook slights against me now (I'm still holding on to the ones I have with a death grip, I don't have the strength for new ones.) There is good and bad in and out of the church, we know this, and if it's harder to accept with those with whom we share religious membership, it just means we have to try harder.

BrotherOfMahonri wrote:Came across this quote this morning...

In a conference held at Provo City, Utah Territory, in the year 1867, in the bowery, on the northwest corner of the now Provo Commercial Bank block, President Brigham Young, in the course of a sermon he was delivering to the people, made the following prophecy: "Brethren, this Church will be led onto the very brink of hell by the leaders of this people, then God will raise up the one `Mighty and Strong' (spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine & Covenants) to save and redeem this Church. The sending of this one "Mighty and Strong" the Lord has purposed for the salvation of the honest in heart among his people, and to be the initiative to bring about the great blessing the Lord has in reserve to cause the poor, the lame, the deaf, and the blind to rejoice.

...

I think Brigham's a good egg; it's too bad many people don't know it (including most Remnant folk in my limited experience).
Can you cite the source please.

skmo wrote:One thing I've learned about History is that it's close to impossible to get a sense of who a person really was without an INCREDIBLE amount of time and research into what they say, to whom they were speaking, what the climate was when the words were spoken, and even then, you're still left wondering which historical documents you've read were accurate and which have either been changed over time by one scribe or another, or if the words were written by someone with an axe to grind in the first place. I can read two articles about today's speech by Speaker of the House Paul Ryan and get two completely different stories about what he said.

Brigham Young is certainly one of the more difficult people to nail down. He was one of the greatest leaders in a young America. Wait, he was one of the biggest jerks this country, nay, this WORLD has ever seen. Or maybe he was both at the same time, or some combination.

Maybe he just spoke the truth and the truth hurts..

Hebrews 4
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Therefore according to the world and saints who rejected/criticized him he seemed to be a "Jerk"

Shadow,

He never claimed that the contractor should have known about the Radon, which was exposed after the foundation started to collapse.. The point was that when they knew that my aunt was dying, they deliberately used legal maneuvering to delay her ability to be deposed until after she died and couldn't give her testimony. Actually, he won the lawsuit, sort of. They forced my Uncle to take a settlement from the contractor, stating that he should settle, because this could still "go on forever" (it had already gone on for many years and cost him six figure lawyer fees). The contractor settled in kind with some property at Bear Lake that wasn't worth much.

I know there are 2 sides to every story, but the point is not so much the accuracy of my Uncle's story as it was that even though he believed he was treated miserably by fellow members of the Church, State Courts, and even the Church's lack of even a symbolic discipline, he decided that he knew that the church was true, and chose to stay, and chose to work diligently to purge his heart of bitterness.

Regards,

George Clay

MormonPatriot wrote:

Matchmaker wrote:

MormonPatriot wrote:Any of you, including OP, who have had poor experiences with people who HAPPEN to be members of God's Church....fine, whatever.

But to extrapolate that to some sinister criticism of the Gospel or the Lord's prophets is absolutely disgusting. The absolute bias spewing from the OP's post is so obvious. He cannot accept the fact that he has failed his covenants and now he wants to nitpick the Church with some 'negative' experience he had.

Just leave the Church alone and go on your merry way.

Your enmity toward the OP is palpable. Your choice of words, "sinister criticism, absolutely disgusting, absolute bias spewing, failed his covenants, nitpick the Church with some negative experience," represents a personal attack on this man rather than an honest comment on his original post.

Personal attack? Are you serious. I am responding to his post. He is projecting some sort of rage against the Church onto someone he claims is a member of the Church who treated him poorly in a business transaction. I am not commenting on anything else about this OP.

He is obviously trying to make some larger point about the Church he now hates....I am calling him out on it. I do not see that as personal

You have characterized this man negatively. It is a personal attack. His post did not spew bias the way your post did.

There is a difference between speaking your mind and being an a$$hole. I suggest you learn what that is.

Your enmity toward the OP is palpable. Your choice of words, "sinister criticism, absolutely disgusting, absolute bias spewing, failed his covenants, nitpick the Church with some negative experience," represents a personal attack on this man rather than an honest comment on his original post.[/quote]

Don't worry Mormon patriot......they say this kinda stuff to anyone who stands up for the church....leaders... ect. Matchmaker can dish it....but doesn't like to take it......Just a fact....... Welcome to this unusual forum......Gotta be tough....lol