LDS Freedom Forum

I say that to anyone who is being an a$$hole. Even if I agree with them.

gclayjr wrote:Shadow,

He never claimed that the contractor should have known about the Radon, which was exposed after the foundation started to collapse.. The point was that when they knew that my aunt was dying, they deliberately used legal maneuvering to delay her ability to be deposed until after she died and couldn't give her testimony. Actually, he won the lawsuit, sort of. They forced my Uncle to take a settlement from the contractor, stating that he should settle, because this could still "go on forever" (it had already gone on for many years and cost him six figure lawyer fees). The contractor settled in kind with some property at Bear Lake that wasn't worth much.

I know there are 2 sides to every story, but the point is not so much the accuracy of my Uncle's story as it was that even though he believed he was treated miserably by fellow members of the Church, State Courts, and even the Church's lack of even a symbolic discipline, he decided that he knew that the church was true, and chose to stay, and chose to work diligently to purge his heart of bitterness.

Regards,

George Clay

I was just curious about the radon. I almost started a radon testing and mitigation company but Utah requires a general contractors license to mitigate.
Good on your uncle for not allowing his opinion of members to determine his testimony of the church. If only others could be as strong.
Is he still in Logan? That's where I live.

sandman45 wrote:Maybe he just spoke the truth and the truth hurts..

Hebrews 4
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Therefore according to the world and saints who rejected/criticized him he seemed to be a "Jerk"

Could be. Like I said, he's certainly a difficult one to nail down, but I'm leaning toward some of both. He certainly was a great, inspired leader who I believe had the help of the Spirit when he needed it after Joseph's death. He was strong and capable as a decision-maker in a VERY hard time. I believe this also kind of explains how some (including me) see him as a bit of a jerk at times. Doesn't diminish my thankfulness for all he did to further the Kingdom of God on earth.

MormonPatriot wrote:Any of you, including OP, who have had poor experiences with people who HAPPEN to be members of God's Church....fine, whatever.

But to extrapolate that to some sinister criticism of the Gospel or the Lord's prophets is absolutely disgusting. The absolute bias spewing from the OP's post is so obvious. He cannot accept the fact that he has failed his covenants and now he wants to nitpick the Church with some 'negative' experience he had.

Just leave the Church alone and go on your merry way.

I believe the intent of OP was to open up a discussion on being honest in heart, not about destroying the church.

Your post however, seems to be nitpicky, actually, I would go so far as to say it borders on bigoted.

I would feel a bit chagrined if I were you... to be caught assigning judgment to another soul (whom you do not know) of not being able to "accept the fact that he has failed in his covenants". You are not the judge of who has failed their covenants. :-$

slimjamm wrote:

BrotherOfMahonri wrote:Came across this quote this morning...

In a conference held at Provo City, Utah Territory, in the year 1867, in the bowery, on the northwest corner of the now Provo Commercial Bank block, President Brigham Young, in the course of a sermon he was delivering to the people, made the following prophecy: "Brethren, this Church will be led onto the very brink of hell by the leaders of this people, then God will raise up the one `Mighty and Strong' (spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine & Covenants) to save and redeem this Church. The sending of this one "Mighty and Strong" the Lord has purposed for the salvation of the honest in heart among his people, and to be the initiative to bring about the great blessing the Lord has in reserve to cause the poor, the lame, the deaf, and the blind to rejoice.

What does it mean to us, to be "honest in heart"?

A recent experience:
We have been looking at homes for awhile, as we have been shown we will be leaving Provo, UT in the Lord's timing and way very soon - and in the course of doing so, we have come across some real estate agents, (all LDS in this case) who, after all is said and done, in the end, care little about us and mostly about money and getting what they feel they are entitled to.

It really shocked me with the last one, as she was very seemingly genuine in her interactions with us (more than most), and was one of a first (for an active LDS) who was very intrigued how we loved the gospel such and that we resigned our membership in the church this year, and we felt cared about our experience. Come to find out, this woman, who we feel sad for in light of this experience, was after all, all about getting her way, and went from someone who was interested in the human relationship to someone who was pushing and shoving to get her way, even trying to force us to see homes she knew we didn't care for (so she could pull the I showed you all these homes card) but aggressively flipped from seemingly someone who wanted our friendship to "you owe me this"!

I genuinely trust people upfront, and the spirit tends to warn me when someone ultimately has, maybe even in the moment, a dishonest motive, desire, or heart... but this repeat experience was another eye opener for me.

Do we as Saints put anything above genuine love towards people, esp. do we put money or objects of acquisition above others? Am I honest in heart with God and my fellow man? If so, how do I maintain that and improve upon it, if not, how do I repent and what is it that invites me to be dishonest in heart with God or my fellow man?

What does it mean to each of us to be Honest in Heart?

Wait, now you believe something attributed to Brigham Young? I'm not saying it isn't true, but it is interesting to me how many of his own statements you reject, yet post this second hand account.

Truth is truth, no matter who says it, conversely, falsehoods are falsehoods no matter who says them. SO, embrace the truth and diligently strive to discern between truth and error. Is that not a huge portion of why we are here?

MormonPatriot wrote:

Matchmaker wrote:

MormonPatriot wrote:Any of you, including OP, who have had poor experiences with people who HAPPEN to be members of God's Church....fine, whatever.

But to extrapolate that to some sinister criticism of the Gospel or the Lord's prophets is absolutely disgusting. The absolute bias spewing from the OP's post is so obvious. He cannot accept the fact that he has failed his covenants and now he wants to nitpick the Church with some 'negative' experience he had.

Just leave the Church alone and go on your merry way.

Your enmity toward the OP is palpable. Your choice of words, "sinister criticism, absolutely disgusting, absolute bias spewing, failed his covenants, nitpick the Church with some negative experience," represents a personal attack on this man rather than an honest comment on his original post.

Personal attack? Are you serious. I am responding to his post. He is projecting some sort of rage against the Church onto someone he claims is a member of the Church who treated him poorly in a business transaction. I am not commenting on anything else about this OP.

He is obviously trying to make some larger point about the Church he now hates....I am calling him out on it. I do not see that as personal

Your assumptions betray you my friend. ""he is obviously trying to make some larger point about the church he now hates..."

There is no way you can know this Traditionally "calling someone out" lead to a duel of sorts. Is that what you want? You want a duel? ... Or would you like a discussion?

Your post would be much stronger if were to state it more like this....
I feel...
It seems to me...
I get a sense that...

This would open the door for a more civil discussion, rather than an... attack.

Kitkat wrote:I believe the intent of OP was to open up a discussion on being honest in heart, not about destroying the church.

When we moved to Houston, our SLC realtor didn't do much. A family came by to see the house, my wife talked to them and they ended up buying the house. My wife is my best realtor.

Hope your family is doing well.

rewcox wrote:

Kitkat wrote:I believe the intent of OP was to open up a discussion on being honest in heart, not about destroying the church.

When we moved to Houston, our SLC realtor didn't do much. A family came by to see the house, my wife talked to them and they ended up buying the house. My wife is my best realtor.

Hope your family is doing well.

Thank you. Wives do make good realtors...if the house is clean

"Why the heart? Because the heart is a synonym for one’s entire makeup. We often use phrases about the heart to describe the total person. Thus, we describe people as being “big-hearted” or “goodhearted” or having a “heart of gold.” Or we speak of people with faint hearts, wise hearts, pure hearts, willing hearts, deceitful hearts, conniving hearts, courageous hearts, cold hearts, hearts of stone, or selfish hearts.

The measure of our hearts is the measure of our total performance. As used by the Lord, the “heart” of a person describes his effort to better self, or others, or the conditions he confronts...What does it mean to be honest in heart? It describes an individual who is open to truth, who will evaluate information or people without prejudice.

Honest-hearted persons are individuals without pretense, without hypocrisy. They are reliable in word and action. They have no “hidden agendas” to deceive others or to misrepresent facts. In contrast, those with conniving hearts will deceive and misrepresent.

An honest heart will lead to a change of heart. Spiritually speaking, a change of heart is not only desirable, but essential for eternal life. The Book of Mormon describes the conversion experience, which all of us must have, as a “mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually.” (Mosiah 5:2.)" MARVIN J ASHTON

Great thoughts by Elder Ashton.

Melissa wrote:Is it too personal to ask what lead you to resign your membership?

Melissa. Thanks for the question which questions, especially Heavenly inspired ones, lead to allow the spirit to facilitate discussion that uplifts, teaches, and edifies, even and esp. when we disagree!

Might I add this thought in answering your question: Was it too personal to ask Christ by what authority he did what he did if our hearts were honest (unlike those who asked him to try and trap him), would it have been too personal to ask Lehi, if we lived in his days, why the heck he was preaching against the then established "church" if you will, what about Samuel the Lamanite, would he have been giddy to answer people, rather than have stones and arrows chucked his way? what do you think? Would they, or any person with a righteous heart, not jump at the opportunity to share an answer with one whose heart is honest and seeking, esp. if that one is seeking in love?

We resigned after years of the Lord preparing us for, and promising us peace in our diligently seeking Him. The Lord knows us perfectly, right? So knowing us perfectly, he tests us individually to see if we will obey and trust His voice over all others, even maybe against the commandment of thou shalt not kill (ie. Abraham).

Some questions to ask ourselves, in response to yours:
If the bishop asked you to take your children out of primary, would you do it?
What about the stake president? The brethren?
What about if they said to take them out of scouts? Would you do it?

What if God asked you to take your children out of primary or scouts, against the then counsel (because you felt to check your promptings with the leaders) of bishops, stake leaders, and others? WOULD YOU DO IT????

God gives us spiritual gifts, and if we are diligent we can apply to those spiritual gifts, improve upon them with your trusting in him and counseling NOT with man as he teaches us to utilize these spiritual gifts in love.

A gift I have been given is to discern plainly when anyone, man or woman, LDS or not, is practicing a form of D&C 121 control or compulsion, and frankly it is almost everyone, the gift even works in my own self if I step over the line, for which I'm very grateful. I don't believe this gift should be unique to me, and perhaps it is not, but for some reason I admit I'm hyper sensitive to this gift.

So... to conclude and answer your question in light if what I shared above, I am so stubborn, and God was so much trying to tell us to not freak out about leaving the church, resigning, that he finally set it up, as he does in his way of PATTERNS SO AS TO NOT BE DECEIVED (with personal revelation and one's heeding the voice of the spirit over all others) - he told us to buy this home in Provo (our last choice of location to move to (we could go anywhere in the USA and had specifically spent much time and resources to get to Washington State)) - we moved to provo, the spirit confirming our revelation - and as I sat with the bishop (the Lord knows these experiences we are about to have and works according to our understanding, breaking points, etc.) - the bishop in our interview asked me the Temple Recommend questions, which I lovingly and honestly and openly answered and said exactly this...

I am quoting myself here, because so many LDSFF members seem to miss this, and WILL NOT DISCUSS it with this loving, not perfect, struggling as many others are father and family...

I have faith the brethren are who they claim to be, prophet, seers, and revelators, but I haven't a witness but am seeking such a witness diligently.

I also added that I sustain them as beloved brothers in their stewardships over so many members that look to them for inspiration, but haven't the witness nor am I finding the fruits of prophets, seers, and revelators, laid out in scriptures.

The bishop then said he needs my recommend. I asked him why? He didn't give me much of a thoughtful response. I asked him if my worthiness to worship my God in His holy temples was determined on my sustaining of a man as a prophet seer and revelator? He affirmed the same.

Stake pres. affirmed the same. Long story short, we resigned rather than take ourselves through the stress of dealing with a potential discimplinary counsel - when these leaders were so willing to tell us how we would wander in darkness if we left the church but so slow to lovingly help us get whatever witness they had of the brethren, let alone discuss such. As soon as they heard we couldn't sustain them as those three titles, it was like we were diseased. A different experience for sure from our previous bishop and esp. stake pres. who felt the spirit tell them of our faith and said we need the temple more often in such a case of "faith" crisis in the brethren.

All this please must be taken with the realization that it isn't because of some bishop we left, but the Lord leading us through personal revelation to learn what we must learn to find peace in Him alone, as well as His perspective of what he has been trying to show me my entire conscious life in the LDS church, something I have, because of the fears that came true for daring to have my own brain thinking and my own revelation concerning things we are being taught and told to do, learned painfully.

If any are wondering - I see us back in a church (defined as people who love Christ, with many prophets) that Christ has set in order and cleansed of the serious hypocrites (those are his words not mine). We love the gospel, we live the gospel, and church is our temple, which is our home, which temple, Christ is welcome and invited in.

So, in return, my question for you. What is a witness to you? How do you distinguish between a witness and feeling the spirit testify to you of truth? During GC, I had the spirit testify of truth to me, but also of error and things taught that were D&C 121 to small or great degrees. Does that mean the church is not true? Does it mean the church it true? No. It means people have agency, and the grand test for us to be not deceived is to know His voice over the voices of all mankind, and to follow his voice to him.

Hope that clarifies a little.

Matchmaker wrote:As a customer, I have bought and sold approximately 10 homes over the course of my life, and sadly, I have never worked with a Real Estate Agent who put my needs first over his or hers. Half of them were LDS and half were not. It didn't make a bit of difference in how they treated me. Some were more ruthless than others in pursuit of their payday. Some tried to intimidate, bully, or guilt me into purchasing houses that they had shown me that clearly weren't in my best interest to buy, just so they could make a quick sale.
Should we at this point have the right to discern whether or not this person's heart is honest? And be able to help that person by calling them out on it in love (confronting them as the the scriptures lay out)?

One agent had a good heart and tried honestly to help me, but he was so inexperienced that he kept botching things up when other agents would submit offers on my house and actually cost me the sale on my house because he was too busy spending time with his other job, his family, and his Church calling to respond promptly to other offers.
Bless this person's heart, I think I have been there in other ways, getting in the way when the Lord is plainly telling me, this person does NOT need your help - I got this one the Lord says. Leave me to my perfect work with this, I have someone else this person will be helped by.

One agent used to insist on driving me around in her car to see houses that were available and then would always stop at a gas station to fill up her car when I was with her. I think she was trying to show me how much money I was costing her so I would hurry up and buy something from her. face palm... /:)

My conclusion - when money is involved in business negotiations, don't trust anyone who acts like they want to be your friend or says they will give you the best in customer service. If you don't perform as they expect you to (move quickly to put more money in their pocket), you will see them for the fair-weather friend they really are.

Thanks for sharing. I agree with your analogies with money and business - I do think one can learn quickly the current condition of another's heart as soon as money is involved.

gclayjr wrote:I have an Uncle who retired to Logan as a reasonably wealthy man. He bought a new house for about 1/2 Million dollars. Within a few years the foundation split and fell down. He tried to get the contractor to make it good. The contractor refused. He sued. It turned out that his house also had Radon. His wife died of Radon poisoning...

He has struggled with his bitterness, but he finally decided that the Church is true, and as bad as so many of the members may be, it is still true, and he has maintained his membership and his faith. Although he has admitted that it wasn't easy.

What a tragedy.

As some are falsely assuming, this blaming the church for one experience is NOT the point of my thread, nor would it be a show of one's maturity in living the gospel - that of accusing the church because this agent and others happened to be LDS. That is the point of the church's existence, a spiritual hospital for the spiritually sick to be strengthened by those who are spiritually strong in love unfeigned.

The point is however that where greater truth is had, greater expectations are asked. Not expecting perfection, but what purpose is there in any LDS specific human interaction (ie. these real estate human interactions) if it isn't to build trust relationships and praise God?

If we are taking advantage of another, that is sin, and we should privately call it out to the benefit of the other party, but yes such calling one out (rebuking as the scriptures state) must be done in love, not to some prideful motive to being right or self righteous.

gclayjr wrote:Matchmaker,

I agree. Also, while I was born in Utah, I have spent most of my life living in "the Mission Field". I can't count the number of friends and associates I know who have moved to Utah, thinking they were moving to "Zion", and then being appalled by the treatment they received, and what they saw, and then leaving the church.

Out here in the Mission Field we have a term "Utah Mormon", and I am afraid it is not particularly complimentary.

Regards,

George Clay

It's not all, but many. And I am so far being told by God to figure out what spirit it is and cry against it, which many assume means I am attacking the church entirely, am anti Christ, and even go so far as to judge my covenant keeping abilities, which is a sure sign of one's lack of maturity and love and potentially their current heavenly inspired capacity. When one attacks, they are simply following the same "Utah Mormon" spirit if you will, which is more anti-Christ's-teachings than anything I'm doing here.

Mormon Patriot. I must ask, as the term "patriot" is someone who feels a strong support for their country church - did you feel attacked in my OP? If so how? Where did I talk about any of your points in your discussion with me, response, potentially a bad reaction?

MormonPatriot wrote: Any of you, including OP, who have had poor experiences with people who HAPPEN to be members of God's Church....fine, whatever.

But to extrapolate that to some sinister criticism of the Gospel or the Lord's prophets is absolutely disgusting. The absolute bias spewing from the OP's post is so obvious.
With all the love of my heart, let's just for this once, give me some room, ok? Pretend you are Pahoran, and I am Moroni. Let's say I censured you in error. Where is the spirit-filled inspired response Pahoran gave Moroni for his assuming wrong to me? If I have said something in this OP that caused you grief, let's talk about it and discuss, as you left me very little room here with your attacks.
He cannot accept the fact stop right here... you already lost by telling another what he or she accepts that he has failed his covenants :ymsick: :-$ [-( and now he wants to nitpick the Church with some 'negative' experience he had.
Please, go back, reread it with a prayer of Love, Hope and Faith. Tell me what a Loving God then speaks to you and share that. Are you not reacting here? What is this type of response for? Where did I nitpick the church. I am addressing the HEART OF PEOPLE, in particular LDS people who like myself (I consider myself LDS through and through, a latter day saint) indeed one can expect more from, as King Benjamin lays out clearly in his Tower Address to the saints of his time.

Just leave the Church alone and go on your merry way. I must know where in the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ this type of doctrine - telling one to leave the church alone and go on your merry way - even comes close to existing. I am responding to you because I do care, I am sincere, and my heart and motives which you falsely judged can be felt if one allows themselves to feel it, as the spirit can communicate across any barriers. Here's to another try at this? :ymhug:

For potential discussion's and learning's sake. I have dealt with this type of reaction my entire life, assuming the worst, when my heart is so far from such shallow judgements.

My Edits added...

MormonPatriot wrote: Personal attack? Are you serious. I am responding reacting to his post. He is projecting sincerely sharing some sort of rage real experience he had against the Church onto someone he claims is a with a member of the Church who treated him poorly in a business transaction. I am not commenting reacting on anything else about to this OP just as Christ asks me to react?.

He is I am obviously trying to make some larger point about the Church he now spirit of hates.... I am calling have called him myself out on it in my lacking love reaction and assuming the worst . I do not see that as personal ?

I give you my edit above in hopes that you can step back and try again with me, as you are being told (see if you can give another human soul the same courtesy you would hope they give you) your assumption is way way off by the person you indeed have attacked.

Also, please know I do this in love not for some other motive, as HOW IN THE WORLD will you and I be in the same Zion with such mean spirited assumptions as this feels to have been?

slimjamm wrote:

BrotherOfMahonri wrote:Came across this quote this morning...

In a conference held at Provo City, Utah Territory, in the year 1867, in the bowery, on the northwest corner of the now Provo Commercial Bank block, President Brigham Young, in the course of a sermon he was delivering to the people, made the following prophecy: "Brethren, this Church will be led onto the very brink of hell by the leaders of this people, then God will raise up the one `Mighty and Strong' (spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine & Covenants) to save and redeem this Church. The sending of this one "Mighty and Strong" the Lord has purposed for the salvation of the honest in heart among his people, and to be the initiative to bring about the great blessing the Lord has in reserve to cause the poor, the lame, the deaf, and the blind to rejoice.

Wait, now you believe something attributed to Brigham Young? I'm not saying it isn't true, but it is interesting to me how many of his own statements you reject, yet post this second hand account.

Thanks for the invite?

Brigham Young was a man to me. Just like you and I. He himself said he was no prophet, but a president. I believe him in that statement.

I am quoting a man whose polygamy I appose and do not feel was EVER from God but the creation of men doing things their own way. This is an LDS forum, so I am quoting LDS leaders who like any of us, can definitely be inspired. The Lord calls a man evil at one point and chose at another, he sees them as they are - and if we repent, if Brigham Young was inspired in the quote I used, great! the spirit will tell each of us personally whether or not it is of God. If Brigham Young erred, if Joseph erred, if Thomas errs, it is up to us to discern such.

The issue I have is when such errors are taught as doctrine and if one get's the voice of Christ telling them to not follow such errors, they are anti-everything and hellians to most active LDS on this LDSFF.

slimjamm wrote:I guess that's what happens when you have an ax to grind.

What is so ironic slimjamm is that could you or anyone at that, esp. the san hedren say the same about Christ? I dare venture say they did say it often in their own LDSFF of sorts. The issue here is whether or not you and I realize where we stand - whether we stand in the true church and would recognize Christ, or reject him because of leaders who cause us to err (not all, but definitely some) as plainly shown in scripture (saints of their times rejecting prophets and the very Christ).

Jezebel wrote: You have characterized this man negatively. It is a personal attack. His post did not spew bias the way your post did.

There is a difference between speaking your mind and being an a$$hole. I suggest you learn what that is.

I have a good friend, left the church way long before I ever considered such a damnable thing - I think I'm leaning more to his perspective on people.

I asked him what makes him so easy to get along with (keep in mind this guy is a huge bear of a man, who has every right to be mean, but is gentle, kind, and very thoughtful before he speaks). He laughed and said, because you are my friend I'll tell you my secret.

All I do is, the moment I meet any person, is I put them on the level of an A$$ - that way, no matter how much they take advantage of me, mistreat me or otherwise be a jerk, they were already at that level, so I had no expectations otherwise and I have no reason to be upset with them. In fact, because I start all new people I meet at the level of an A$$, it is very easy for them to move to a higher level of admiration in my eyes.

BrotherOfMahonri wrote: Brigham Young was a man to me. Just like you and I. He himself said he was no prophet, but a president. I believe him in that statement.
...
...if Brigham Young was inspired in the quote I used, great!
...

So, Brigham was no prophet, but you've clearly laid out an instance where you think he actually DID prophesy. Hm.

I think Brigham was directed by God often, he was just realistic and unprideful while comparing himself to Joseph and some others.

BrotherOfMahonri wrote:For potential discussion's and learning's sake. I have dealt with this type of reaction my entire life, assuming the worst, when my heart is so far from such shallow judgements.

My Edits added...

MormonPatriot wrote: Personal attack? Are you serious. I am responding reacting to his post. He is projecting sincerely sharing some sort of rage real experience he had against the Church onto someone he claims is a with a member of the Church who treated him poorly in a business transaction. I am not commenting reacting on anything else about to this OP just as Christ asks me to react?.

He is I am obviously trying to make some larger point about the Church he now spirit of hates.... I am calling have called him myself out on it in my lacking love reaction and assuming the worst . I do not see that as personal ?

I give you my edit above in hopes that you can step back and try again with me, as you are being told (see if you can give another human soul the same courtesy you would hope they give you) your assumption is way way off by the person you indeed have attacked.

Also, please know I do this in love not for some other motive, as HOW IN THE WORLD will you and I be in the same Zion with such mean spirited assumptions as this feels to have been?

I wonder if the real estate agent who you accused of not being honest in heart would edit your original post? I suspect she has her side of the story that may be different than yours. How in the world will you be in Zion when you're always judging others so negatively?


Didn't God give you the go-ahead to leave Utah?

skmo wrote:

sandman45 wrote:Maybe he just spoke the truth and the truth hurts..

Hebrews 4
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Therefore according to the world and saints who rejected/criticized him he seemed to be a "Jerk"

Could be. Like I said, he's certainly a difficult one to nail down, but I'm leaning toward some of both. He certainly was a great, inspired leader who I believe had the help of the Spirit when he needed it after Joseph's death. He was strong and capable as a decision-maker in a VERY hard time. I believe this also kind of explains how some (including me) see him as a bit of a jerk at times. Doesn't diminish my thankfulness for all he did to further the Kingdom of God on earth.

Couple things.

Joseph the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, attempted to establish the "Kingdom" of God, Brigham was left to further the "church" as the President of such (his own words, I'm a president, not a prophet as Joseph) - which church could (even the Lord stated such in D&C1) be a hopeful step towards the Kingdom, Zion.

In light of brother Brigham being "a great, inspired leader who I believe had the help of the Spirit when he needed it after Joseph's death. He was strong and capable as a decision-maker in a VERY hard time. "

I agree - however I am leaning towards this description of what a good leader he was, excepting BY didn't do justice to many of his people according to scholars and some practices he influenced others to partake of:
Ether 10:9-11

As to Brigham and Polygamy:
2 Nephi 2:16

16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.

I have a personal witness God did not establish polygamy as a law and BY was enticed by the one not the other.

It is up to us to find our own witnesses from God. I do fear we confuse the spirit telling us a message is true to mean the messenger is who he claims to be, otherwise there would not have been so many deceived into so many other denominations don't you think?

I am still seeking such in regards to the current brethren (Which honesty of heart cost me my ability to worship God in his temples - which is an error on part of church policy (not Christ's doctrine) coming down the chain), and so far the majority of my fellow saints on this forum have done nothing but react and assume the worst, which is fruit enough to make one sick and high tail it out of the church, but like was mentioned, I am learning to ignore the members who are bitter, ruthless, and acting in contrary to the gospel of Christ, they are not the restored gospel - and have found some few members so far on this LDSFF who are actually quite inspired - just haven't found what it seems so many here have found in regards to a WITNESS of these good, very oft inspired (as much as you and I can be in our stewardships) brethren being seers and revelators, I give them they are prophets as much as we all can be in our own homes over our own stewardships (like my stewardship of those (not in my family) under my sphere of direct influence to help them to Christ).

Happy to receive any help from anyone as to their gaining a witness of the brethren.

braingrunt wrote:

BrotherOfMahonri wrote: Brigham Young was a man to me. Just like you and I. He himself said he was no prophet, but a president. I believe him in that statement.
...
...if Brigham Young was inspired in the quote I used, great!
...

So, Brigham was no prophet, but you've clearly laid out an instance where you think he actually DID prophesy. Hm.

I think Brigham was directed by God often, he was just realistic and unprideful while comparing himself to Joseph and some others.

Can one attain to the spirit of prophecy (such a spirit and attaining to it is laid out by the sons of mosiah) and prophesy but later fall from grace?

What of the son of Beor, Balaam. He prophesied for God and Israel, but was slain for his doctrine, way, and counsel? A prophecying prophet who spoke to God and God spoke to him died for his errors.

What about Judas? Do you believe he might give a spirit filled sacrament talk in his days? Was he ever filled with the spirit around Christ? What about King Noah? What about Alma Sr as a High Priest. Doesn't God allow the wicked to self-fulfill their own prophecy - fall into the pit they dug in their mis-aligned motives?

Why would a loving God allow Brigham to do what he did if it was in error, yet allow him to prophesy? Could it be that God really only wants to test us all to see if we will follow his voice rather than traditional narratives and the lusts of the flesh? God will deal with Brigham as much as he will with us. Brigham is just as vulnerable as we are and vice versa.

I just truly hope his last words before he passed on of "Joseph, Joseph, Joseph" by one account, and yelling "Joseph! Joseph! Joseph!" by another account were his rejoicing and embracing (as we are told endlessly in LDS books), not begging for him to touch the tip of his finger to quench his thirst as Joseph walks away with the Lazarus's of Brigham's time in his bosom, or better yet, with Emma in his arms, the same Emma Brigham said Joseph "had to go to hell for her, and he will have to go to hell for her as sure as he ever gets her." (Journal of Discourses, Volume 17)

BrotherOfMahonri wrote:I have a personal witness God did not establish polygamy as a law and BY was enticed by the one not the other.

I don't have a personal witness because I've never felt a need to delve into the subject more than I was required to for classes at BYU (both UT and religious History) but I have my opinions based on the material I've studied, that is that in the early church polygamy served a valuable temporal function which could have included spiritual blessings as well had the saints been able to practice it righteously. They were not, and so it was taken. I do not doubt your witness as you've had it, but we each have our own gifts and witnesses according to our own time and in accordance with God's time (if we're not enough on the ball to keep up with His plan.)

It is up to us to find our own witnesses from God. I do fear we confuse the spirit telling us a message is true to mean the messenger is who he claims to be, otherwise there would not have been so many deceived into so many other denominations don't you think?

There are several cans of worms I won't open in that other than to say I agree with more of this than I disagree with.

I am still seeking such in regards to the current brethren...

I wish you God's blessings in this and hope you humbly find what you seek. I will neither condemn nor praise you for your choice other than to appreciate your frankness.

...I am learning to ignore the members who are bitter, ruthless, and acting in contrary to the gospel of Christ...

I am sorry you've had to learn the lesson I learned thirty years ago upon moving to Utah. Again, I will wish you His choicest blessings, and recommend you HUMBLY seek what you are looking for (please forgive the emphasis, but my own hard lessons in life have shown me how much harder my lessons will be if I fail to humble myself.)

BrotherOfMahonri wrote:

Jezebel wrote: You have characterized this man negatively. It is a personal attack. His post did not spew bias the way your post did.

There is a difference between speaking your mind and being an a$$hole. I suggest you learn what that is.

I have a good friend, left the church way long before I ever considered such a damnable thing - I think I'm leaning more to his perspective on people.

I asked him what makes him so easy to get along with (keep in mind this guy is a huge bear of a man, who has every right to be mean, but is gentle, kind, and very thoughtful before he speaks). He laughed and said, because you are my friend I'll tell you my secret.

All I do is, the moment I meet any person, is I put them on the level of an A$$ - that way, no matter how much they take advantage of me, mistreat me or otherwise be a jerk, they were already at that level, so I had no expectations otherwise and I have no reason to be upset with them. In fact, because I start all new people I meet at the level of an A$$, it is very easy for them to move to a higher level of admiration in my eyes.

The man must have a lot of friends.