Page 1 of 2

The Confederate Flag

Posted: October 28th, 2015, 3:29 pm
by Magus
Anyone have a problem with it?

My ancestors on my father's side fought for the Confederacy through the entirety of the war, made it through the whole thing alive. They fought with a Missouri regiment of "dismounted cavalry" which I think pretty much meant they were once cavalry but had their horses shot out from under them. I hear my great-great grandfather often went through the war barefoot, as well. He was young when he joined in 1861, a teenager. He died in the 1920's.

So, I honor the flag.

And not just because of my ancestors, but because of the good things it represented, like the emphasis on states' rights and the ability to secede if need be. I don't believe the South necessarily should have seceded, but they did, and in those times, the cultural and economic differences were much more stark. People also believed in fighting for honor back then, too. Robert E. Lee wasn't particularly pro-slavery or pro-secession, but when asked by Lincoln to lead the Union army before the war, he turned it down because he said he could not fight against Virginia.

Jefferson Davis wrote a large, 2 volume series called The Rise and Fall of the Confederate Government - and in it, he also disputes slavery being the chief cause of secession and subsequently the war. I haven't read it all, but the parts I have read make a pretty interesting case having largely to do with tariffs placed on the South by the U.S. government, and southern states being wedged out of power in the U.S. congress, and essentially this was a North vs. South economic interest where the Northern states were benefiting apparently at the expense of the Southern states, so when Lincoln was elected, it was the final straw. I'm not denying that slavery had anything to do with it, obviously it's part of the declared reasons for secession in the various state's official declarations of secession - but I am saying that I think the history books are written by the winners (and these days, by those who want to marginalize the conservative South through political correctness) and I think there is a large emphasis on slavery and a deliberate de-emphasis, if not total ignoring, of all the other reasons which were valid and all part of what lead to the decisions for individual states to secede and form a Confederacy.

I realize the flag has been the symbol of racism and segregation through the Jim Crow era, and I find that very unfortunate. I feel like real, bigoted racists took the flag and applied it to a cause not even Nathan Bedford Forrest would have endorsed, who ironically founded the original KKK, but disbanded it due to it getting out of control and straying from its intended purpose, which was to fight the Northern occupation and the carpetbaggers. The KKK we know today was founded much later, for a very different set of reasons that were all about anti-immigration, anti-Catholic/Jew/Mormon, pro-Protestant, White-Anglo-Saxon-Celtic culture. Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying the original KKK was "good," I'm just saying the founder had a different set of motivations and objectives in some significant ways. But that's a taboo subject that people don't want to hear about, they'd rather just totally demonize anyone and everyone ever involved with the organization at any point in history - but in the South, Nathan Bedford Forrest is considered a hero, despite some of his faults.

So I understand why a lot of people are offended by the flag. But I also believe that most of those people don't know their history very well at all, and if they do, they don't appreciate it.

I might be wrong, but I heard that Confederate veterans are considered, by law, to be U.S. war veterans and deserve the same honor as any solider that fought and died in any U.S. war at any time. So honoring them by flying their flag would then be backed up by U.S. law.

Furthermore, in this age of political correctness, where everyone is offended by every little thing - everyone considers how people might be offended by the flag flying. People play victim and say how offensive it is to them - but in the same breath, they don't consider how offensive it is to the descendants of those veterans to dishonor it, take it down, and treat it as a thing of pure evil. Because I can promise you, the Confederate flag is no more evil or racist than the Star Spangled Banner we all fly and salute and pledge allegiance to has ever been.

I feel like the Confederate flag and those that hate it need to come to terms of understanding and respect, if not acceptance and embracing. I feel like black people, in particular, have a stake in the South, because it's where most of them have their ancestry before the diaspora that happened after the Civil War. They built the South, they built much of this nation, and they should be honored or it, and although the South initially seceded to preserve slavery, there was still (among many, but not all) a paternal aspect of white/black relations that was much less harsh than how blacks were treated by many in the north. If you read text books these days, you'd think that everyone in the south was an abolitionist and everyone in the south was a cold-hearted slave-whipper, and that's just not the truth.

Anyway, your thoughts?

Re: The Confederate Flag

Posted: October 28th, 2015, 3:31 pm
by Separatist
No problem whatsoever.

Re: The Confederate Flag

Posted: October 28th, 2015, 3:40 pm
by Separatist
viewtopic.php?t=39318" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

viewtopic.php?t=39479" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

viewtopic.php?t=39266" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: The Confederate Flag

Posted: October 28th, 2015, 4:16 pm
by Cookies
Anyone have a problem with it?
Nope. A flag is a piece of cloth that means whatever the heck you want it to mean, and everyone is allowed to have their own opinions about it.
I see no problems with that.

Re: The Confederate Flag

Posted: October 28th, 2015, 4:32 pm
by David13
I agree totally.
And particularly with your clear understanding of much of the history of the era of the war, and subsequent events.
dc

Re: The Confederate Flag

Posted: October 29th, 2015, 7:53 am
by Sandinista
Nice synopsis Magus. Agree, most people really don't understand history so, in their ignorance, are easily swayed by whatever voice of persuasion shouts the loudest and longest.

Interesting family history tidbit. My wife is from Kentucky, one of the so-called "border states" in the Civil War. We've learned that her ancestors, some from the same immediate family, fought on both the Union and Confederate sides during the war. It truly was "brother against brother" and "father against son". Must have made for some interesting family conversations in the decades after the war! :)

Re: The Confederate Flag

Posted: October 29th, 2015, 8:25 am
by MormonPatriot
I am not from the South, but as soon as these Liberal pansies on tv started spewing their hatred towards a piece of cloth....I went out and bought me one.

I honor the Confederate flag as a modern symbol of freedom against tyranny. That is what it has become. I now stand with my brothers from the south and say: You can take my flag and my guns when you pull them from my cold dead hands.

Re: The Confederate Flag

Posted: October 29th, 2015, 11:02 am
by gclayjr
There has been a lot of "Revisionist" history written by "lost cause" writers, and others of the former Confederacy. The fact of the mater is that Slavery WAS the reason for the secession ... it is actually ENSHRINED in their constitution. I'm not going to again prove this fact here in a back and forth with those who want to fantasize otherwise because that is not my point.

However, contrary, to the actual reason for secession, it wasn't the reason that most who fought for the Confederacy fought, They were not fighting for slavery. As an unabashed Northern sympathizer, I know that the proper name for this war was "The War of the Rebellion". However, my many southern friends and relatives would rather know it as "The War of Northern Aggression". Most southern soldiers were honorable men who were fighting to eject an army they perceived as invaders.

They fought gallantly, and many stories have been taught about such gallantry, which are particularly dear to people whose ancestors fought in this war. In modern days, the confederate flag has become a synonym with self sufficient redneck country life (Think of that well known Dodge Charger... the General Lee).

While not everybody has agreed with these meanings for the Confederate flag, and there are those who truly associate it with the evils of Slavery and oppression of Black people in the south, the fact that suddenly, the culture has "gotten their panties in a twist" over the Confederate flag reflects more a hostility to those Bible thumpen gun toten redneck hicks who love this symbol, than a real thought out rejection of an evil symbol.

Regards,

George Clay

Re: The Confederate Flag

Posted: October 29th, 2015, 11:18 am
by Stacy Oliver
The Confederate flag was the flag of a nation of traitors and racists. The Confederacy was absolutely founded on slavery. Just look at South Carolina's causes of secession.http://www.civilwar.org/education/histo ... h_Carolina" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; It's all about slavery.

Why would anyone fly of a flag of a people who literally fought against the Constitution?

Re: The Confederate Flag

Posted: October 29th, 2015, 11:43 am
by Serragon
Stacy Oliver wrote:The Confederate flag was the flag of a nation of traitors and racists. The Confederacy was absolutely founded on slavery. Just look at South Carolina's causes of secession.http://www.civilwar.org/education/histo ... h_Carolina" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; It's all about slavery.

Why would anyone fly of a flag of a people who literally fought against the Constitution?

Disagree with the traitor part, agree with the racist part.

The south did not "literally" fight against the constitution. Secession was a part of the constitutional agreement. It was Lincoln who actually broke the constitution.

I think of the Confederacy as being correct in their position yet incorrect in their cause.

As far as the flag, today it is not symbolic of the incorrect causes of racism and slavery. It is symbolic of the correct position the southern states took on their own freedom and liberty. I understand that some people might feel offended by it, but I think they are misguided.

Re: The Confederate Flag

Posted: October 29th, 2015, 11:46 am
by Separatist
The North benefited from slavery just as much as the South. They were also just as racist. Simply put, the North forced the South not to walk away and invaded them for doing so. The South had no desire to invade the North and take over the government. So it wasn't really a 'civil war' in the strict sense. Prescient abolitionists thought secession was a good thing, so as to no longer enforce the fugitive slave law.

The proper response should have been "If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation … to a continuance in the union …. I have no hesitation in saying, ‘Let us separate.'” - Jefferson

Re: The Confederate Flag

Posted: October 29th, 2015, 11:48 am
by samizdat
Had ancestors that fought for the Confederacy. Others may have fought for the Union though the vast majority of my mom's side of the family made it to the country after the war.

Slavery at the time was not against the Constitution Stacy Oliver. Abhorrent practice, yes. But perfectly constitutional.

Re: The Confederate Flag

Posted: October 29th, 2015, 11:50 am
by Stacy Oliver
Serragon wrote:
Stacy Oliver wrote:The Confederate flag was the flag of a nation of traitors and racists. The Confederacy was absolutely founded on slavery. Just look at South Carolina's causes of secession.http://www.civilwar.org/education/histo ... h_Carolina" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; It's all about slavery.

Why would anyone fly of a flag of a people who literally fought against the Constitution?

Disagree with the traitor part, agree with the racist part.

The south did not "literally" fight against the constitution. Secession was a part of the constitutional agreement. It was Lincoln who actually broke the constitution.

I think of the Confederacy as being correct in their position yet incorrect in their cause.

As far as the flag, today it is not symbolic of the incorrect causes of racism and slavery. It is symbolic of the correct position the southern states took on their own freedom and liberty. I understand that some people might feel offended by it, but I think they are misguided.
Even if I agreed that secession were permissible, they were attempting to replace the Constitution with something of their own making. I'm surprised that people will o love the Constitution would be sympathetic to that. What about the whole Constitution hanging by a thread thing?

Re: The Confederate Flag

Posted: October 29th, 2015, 11:50 am
by Separatist
Serragon wrote: I think of the Confederacy as being correct in their position yet incorrect in their cause.
Position is greater than the cause. The cause is really insignificant. If a state wants to go it on their own, Godspeed per Jefferson.

What was the cause of the North's invasion? Economic. Reading a lot of overseas press on the issue really nails it.

Re: The Confederate Flag

Posted: October 29th, 2015, 11:51 am
by Separatist
samizdat wrote:Slavery at the time was not against the Constitution Stacy Oliver. Abhorrent practice, yes. But perfectly constitutional.
Which the North was promising the South not to touch.

Re: The Confederate Flag

Posted: October 29th, 2015, 11:51 am
by Separatist
Highly recommended podcast on secession
http://tomwoods.com/podcast/ep-52-secede/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: The Confederate Flag

Posted: October 29th, 2015, 11:52 am
by Stacy Oliver
samizdat wrote:Had ancestors that fought for the Confederacy. Others may have fought for the Union though the vast majority of my mom's side of the family made it to the country after the war.

Slavery at the time was not against the Constitution Stacy Oliver. Abhorrent practice, yes. But perfectly constitutional.
It was constitutional. But was the Confederacy fighting to preserve the Constitution, ornwere they fighting to replace it with something more like the Articles of Confederation?

Re: The Confederate Flag

Posted: October 29th, 2015, 11:52 am
by Separatist
They were fighting to govern themselves

Re: The Confederate Flag

Posted: October 29th, 2015, 11:53 am
by gclayjr
Stacy,

Wow! On this board, I usually find myself demonstrating the fallacy of those who believe that the southern cause was just a bunch of noble states rightists who had no interest in slavery. As I said before, for many, the only thing that the confederate flag represented was slavery. For those like you, I agree, don't fly such a flag.

The problem I have, is that in the last century, that is NOT how the flag has been represented. So why get so upset at those who want to show it in either respect of for their ancestors, or because they like Pickup trucks or 1969 Dodge Chargers.

I think it is more horrific that so many want to wear Che Guevera T-Shirts. There is NO good thing that ever was associated with Che Gueverra. He was evil personified. Most people who wear Che Guevera T-Shirts, have no idea all the brutality and murder he did to his fellow citizens. That being said, I am not going to try and deny those idiots the ability to wear their T-Shirts.

Regards,

George Clay

Re: The Confederate Flag

Posted: October 29th, 2015, 11:55 am
by Stacy Oliver
Separatist wrote:They were fighting to govern themselves
...By the divinely inspired Condition that we've been told to defend, or by a means of their own design? (One which deprives a substantial portion of their population of the most basic God-given rights?)

Re: The Confederate Flag

Posted: October 29th, 2015, 11:58 am
by Stacy Oliver
gclayjr wrote:Stacy,

Wow! On this board, I usually find myself demonstrating the fallacy of those who believe that the southern cause was just a bunch of noble states rightists who had no interest in slavery. As I said before, for many, the only thing that the confederate flag represented was slavery. For those like you, I agree, don't fly such a flag.

The problem I have, is that in the last century, that is NOT how the flag has been represented. So why get so upset at those who want to show it in either respect of for their ancestors, or because they like Pickup trucks or 1969 Dodge Chargers.

I think it is more horrific that so many want to wear Che Guevera T-Shirts. There is NO good thing that ever was associated with Che Gueverra. He was evil personified. Most people who wear Che Guevera T-Shirts, have no idea all the brutality and murder he did to his fellow citizens. That being said, I am not going to try and deny those idiots the ability to wear their T-Shirts.

Regards,

George Clay
I'm not personally offended by it. I'm a grown up and I don't particularly care what people do. But I do believe it represents slavery, rebellion, and anti-Constitutionalism. Everyone has the right to fly it, but I do oppose its use.

I absolutely agree with you about the Che shirt as well.

Re: The Confederate Flag

Posted: October 29th, 2015, 12:06 pm
by Separatist
Stacy Oliver wrote:
Separatist wrote:They were fighting to govern themselves
...By the divinely inspired Condition that we've been told to defend, or by a means of their own design? (One which deprives a substantial portion of their population of the most basic God-given rights?)
By killing people who want to govern themselves? The divinely inspired constitution included slavery. The Constitution was a compact between free sovereign states. They created the union and still retained sovereignty. If it weren't so, some of the states wouldn't have signed on. Secession is legitimate and moral and ought to be defended and applauded. I really suggest listening to that podcast I linked. Not too long.

Re: The Confederate Flag

Posted: October 29th, 2015, 12:09 pm
by Stacy Oliver
Separatist wrote:
Stacy Oliver wrote:
Separatist wrote:They were fighting to govern themselves
...By the divinely inspired Condition that we've been told to defend, or by a means of their own design? (One which deprives a substantial portion of their population of the most basic God-given rights?)
By killing people who want to govern themselves? The divinely inspired constitution included slavery. The Constitution was a compact between free sovereign states. They created the union and still retained sovereignty. If it weren't so, some of the states wouldn't have signed on. Secession is legitimate and moral and ought to be defended and applauded. I really suggest listening to that podcast I linked. Not too long.
Of course slavery was part of the Constitution. I've never said otherwise. We disagree on whether unilateral secession is permissible, but that's another matter.

My point is a simple one: The Confederacy abandoned the Constitution and tried to impose a system of government far removed from it.

Re: The Confederate Flag

Posted: October 29th, 2015, 12:15 pm
by Serragon
Stacy Oliver wrote: But I do believe it represents slavery, rebellion, and anti-Constitutionalism.

I know of no one who uses the confederate flag who is a proponent of slavery. This is silly. If it once was, it no longer is representative of that.

Secession is not rebellion. it is leaving an agreement that you have every right to leave.

I see no way that the southern position could be construed as anti-constitutional. It was the north that was using force to keep folks in an agreement they no longer wanted to be a part of.


The eradication of slavery was a good thing, but the methods used to achieve it were not. The reason the confederate flag has resonance with people is because of the methods used by the North. Love, kindness, persuasion were somewhat lacking...

Re: The Confederate Flag

Posted: October 29th, 2015, 12:23 pm
by Separatist
Stacy Oliver wrote:My point is a simple one: The Confederacy abandoned the Constitution and tried to impose a system of government far removed from it.
And what system of government was that? And if that was their choice, who cares? Perhaps you should compare the CSA Constitution and the US Constitution. Most is unchanged.
http://www.jjmccullough.com/CSA.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;