LDS Freedom Forum

Jason wrote: Depends on who is defining what is Constitutional or not and what their measurement stick is...

Are we saying that Constitutional interpretation is arbitrary and subjective? I'll agree that there doesn't seem to be a universal understanding of the constitution or how it was intended to be used by the Founders.....

iWriteStuff wrote:

Jason wrote: Depends on who is defining what is Constitutional or not and what their measurement stick is...

Are we saying that Constitutional interpretation is arbitrary and subjective? I'll agree that there doesn't seem to be a universal understanding of the constitution or how it was intended to be used by the Founders.....

Nope sure isn't. Many use the Constitution as their stick of choice...but their ultimate endpoint is radically different than what the Constitution intended. What is claimed to be Constitutional is at odds with the gleaned and stated intent (Federalist papers, Declaration of Independence, Preamble, etc).

Ron Paul is one of the very good examples of this. He constantly wielded the "constitutional" stick whilst promoting agenda's that were dangerous if not outright destructive to "creating a more perfect union, establishing justice, insuring domestic tranquility, providing for the common defense, promoting the general welfare, and securing the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity"...from control over money to favored nation status to China to supporting deviant sexual behavior in the military to pork projects to keep his constituents happy to supporting globalist policies & programs.

Not to make him anything special of him or to pick on him...as all of the mainstream politicians are as deceptive and with ill-intent...or more so. Kind of like picking on HI which has a 5% market share rather than ES&S or DVS that have 90%+ market share...all corrupt.

The Founding Father's comments are as valid, if not more so, than when they made them...

We have no government armed with the power capable of contending with human passions, unbridled by morality and true religion. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

- John Adams, The Changing Political Thought of John Adams, Howe, p. 189

Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious they have more need of masters.

- Benjamin Franklin, Speech at the Constitutional Convention, Sept. 17, 1787

Neither the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt.

- Samuel Adams

...and the Lord's statements are as applicable as ever....

Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ.

Ether 2:12

Wherefore he that doth possess it shall serve God or shall be swept off; for it is the everlasting decree of God. And it is not until the fulness of iniquity among the children of the land, that they are swept off.

Ether 2:10

Satan is making war against...the very foundations upon which society, government, and religion rest...He plans to destroy freedom–economic, political, and religious, and to set up in place thereof the greatest, most widespread, and most complete tyranny that has ever oppressed men. He is working under such perfect disguise that many do not recognize either him or his methods. There is no crime he would not commit, no debauchery he would not set up, no plague he would not send, no heart he would not break, no life he would not take, no soul he would not destroy. He comes as a thief in the night; he is a wolf in sheep's clothing. Without their knowing it, the people are being urged down paths that lead only to destruction...

David O. McKay, Conference Report, p. 13 October 1942

Jason wrote:

EmmaLee wrote:Well, that may be, but what matters most to me, personally, is how he actually votes on constitutional issues (that is the whole point of having a Congress, yes? Although with the SC effectively taking over Congress' role, maybe it's a moot point anymore X( ) - and his voting record is the best I've seen - especially amongst the current crop of presidential candidates. For any who may be interested, here is his current voting record -

http://www.thenewamerican.com/freedomin ... id=P000603" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Depends on who is defining what is Constitutional or not and what their measurement stick is...

I'm going by the link in my post, a magazine called The New American - and specifically, their "Freedom Index", which lists every member of Congress and how they actually voted, and how what they voted for or against is or isn't constitutional. I've read TNA regularly for many years - and while I don't agree with everything in its pages, I do agree with a good 95%+ of it. It's the best measuring stick, if you will, of constitutional interpretation that, I believe, actually understands the document and the original intent of the Founders. Click on the link and see what you think (hey, a rhyme! :p ).

I love the Pres. McKay quote Jason. Man how one can see its literal fulfillment over the past 70 years in this land since this warning was given by a Prophet of The Lord. Most complete tyranny that has EVER oppressed men? Working under perfect disguise? But communism was defeated by Reagan wasn't it? Tear down that wall Mr Gorbachev! Haha that's a good one..

iWriteStuff wrote:This is gonna seem odd, but on my way to work this morning I found myself feeling like I should pray for Rep. Chaffetz from Utah. I'm not from Utah, don't vote in Utah, and have only heard about him a bit in the news. But when I looked him up, I think I get an idea why I might have felt prompted:

Score breakdown:
55% (114th Congress: 2015-2016);
52% (113th Congress: 2013-2014);
79% (112th Congress: 2011-2012);
92% (111th Congress: 2009-2010)

His voting record has gotten progressively worse since he was voted in. Do you suppose he's under pressure to abandon his principles? Or is he just soaking in the swamp atmosphere in DC and slowly switching teams?

My .02. They have something on him and are using it to pressure him to vote how they want. Blackmail is a massively strong motivator and is, IMO, the driving force behind why the vast majority of Congresspersons (see how PC I am?!) vote the way they do. Some are just ignorant; some are truly evil; but most probably got caught with their literal and/or proverbial pants down and the powers that be are exquisitely good at using that to their advantage.

Also, people like Chaffetz, i.e. Mormons (and other actual christian types), have MUCH to lose if "found out" - not only their political career, but their religious/social/family life, as well (which is also why corrupt gov't entities such as the FBI, CIA, NSA, etc. very strongly recruit Mormons, as they can tend to be naive, hyper patriotic to the gov't (as opposed to the constitution), obey orders, don't question, and if caught with porn or having an affair, for example, are very easily manipulated to do their controllers bidding rather than be outed publicly). Not saying this is what's happening to him specifically, but his numbers definitely mean something.

EmmaLee wrote:

iWriteStuff wrote:This is gonna seem odd, but on my way to work this morning I found myself feeling like I should pray for Rep. Chaffetz from Utah. I'm not from Utah, don't vote in Utah, and have only heard about him a bit in the news. But when I looked him up, I think I get an idea why I might have felt prompted:

Score breakdown:
55% (114th Congress: 2015-2016);
52% (113th Congress: 2013-2014);
79% (112th Congress: 2011-2012);
92% (111th Congress: 2009-2010)

His voting record has gotten progressively worse since he was voted in. Do you suppose he's under pressure to abandon his principles? Or is he just soaking in the swamp atmosphere in DC and slowly switching teams?

My .02. They have something on him and are using it to pressure him to vote how they want. Blackmail is a massively strong motivator and is, IMO, the driving force behind why the vast majority of Congresspersons (see how PC I am?!) vote the way they do. Some are just ignorant; some are truly evil; but most probably got caught with their literal and/or proverbial pants down and the powers that be are exquisitely good at using that to their advantage.

Also, people like Chaffetz, i.e. Mormons (and other actual christian types), have MUCH to lose if "found out" - not only their political career, but their religious/social/family life, as well (which is also why corrupt gov't entities such as the FBI, CIA, NSA, etc. very strongly recruit Mormons, as they can tend to be naive, hyper patriotic to the gov't (as opposed to the constitution), obey orders, don't question, and if caught with porn or having an affair, for example, are very easily manipulated to do their controllers bidding rather than be outed publicly). Not saying this is what's happening to him specifically, but his numbers definitely mean something.

I can't quite believe you said, or believe that EL, yet you cannot see the same scenario when it comes to Christs Gospel. It's the same brainwashing that covers up truth in both government and religion. Why do they sing all hail to the prophet instead of give said the little stream in primary and Sunday school?

deep water wrote:

EmmaLee wrote:

iWriteStuff wrote:This is gonna seem odd, but on my way to work this morning I found myself feeling like I should pray for Rep. Chaffetz from Utah. I'm not from Utah, don't vote in Utah, and have only heard about him a bit in the news. But when I looked him up, I think I get an idea why I might have felt prompted:

Score breakdown:
55% (114th Congress: 2015-2016);
52% (113th Congress: 2013-2014);
79% (112th Congress: 2011-2012);
92% (111th Congress: 2009-2010)

His voting record has gotten progressively worse since he was voted in. Do you suppose he's under pressure to abandon his principles? Or is he just soaking in the swamp atmosphere in DC and slowly switching teams?

My .02. They have something on him and are using it to pressure him to vote how they want. Blackmail is a massively strong motivator and is, IMO, the driving force behind why the vast majority of Congresspersons (see how PC I am?!) vote the way they do. Some are just ignorant; some are truly evil; but most probably got caught with their literal and/or proverbial pants down and the powers that be are exquisitely good at using that to their advantage.

Also, people like Chaffetz, i.e. Mormons (and other actual christian types), have MUCH to lose if "found out" - not only their political career, but their religious/social/family life, as well (which is also why corrupt gov't entities such as the FBI, CIA, NSA, etc. very strongly recruit Mormons, as they can tend to be naive, hyper patriotic to the gov't (as opposed to the constitution), obey orders, don't question, and if caught with porn or having an affair, for example, are very easily manipulated to do their controllers bidding rather than be outed publicly). Not saying this is what's happening to him specifically, but his numbers definitely mean something.

I can't quite believe you said, or believe that EL, yet you cannot see the same scenario when it comes to Christs Gospel. It's the same brainwashing that covers up truth in both government and religion. Why do they sing all hail to the prophet instead of give said the little stream in primary and Sunday school?

Spiritual gadianton alert!

http://youtu.be/OWwOJlOI1nU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

deep water wrote:

EmmaLee wrote:Also, people like Chaffetz, i.e. Mormons (and other actual christian types), have MUCH to lose if "found out" - not only their political career, but their religious/social/family life, as well (which is also why corrupt gov't entities such as the FBI, CIA, NSA, etc. very strongly recruit Mormons, as they can tend to be naive, hyper patriotic to the gov't (as opposed to the constitution), obey orders, don't question,

I can't quite believe you said, or believe that EL, yet you cannot see the same scenario when it comes to Christs Gospel. It's the same brainwashing that covers up truth in both government and religion. Why do they sing all hail to the prophet instead of give said the little stream in primary and Sunday school?

What makes you think I "cannot see the same scenario when it comes to Christ's gospel"? You might be surprised what I think. Please don't presume you know the full range of my thoughts on these subjects, or that you know my heart - because of a few posts on an internet forum. I DO in fact see the same scenario in many aspects of many LDS members' behavior - it is disappointing, for sure. Is it going to make me leave the Church and rail against it? Nope. I'm sorry if seeing the non-perfectness in LDS members, or in how the Church is run, causes you such distress and makes you hate the Church and everything it entails.

I'm the least perfect person I know, so I give my fellow LDS members (and the Church, Brethren, etc.) a lot of slack. Either the Lord is part of it, or he is not. If he is, then great! HE is in charge, in control, and it would be highly presumptuous for a mere mortal to try and change things. Patience is a virtue - let the Lord do his "strange act" thing. If he isn't a part of it, well, he knows where my heart is and will judge me accordingly. So yes, I CAN see and know and understand what you're talking about here, but unlike many on the forum and in the world, it doesn't cause me to spit on the members or the Church.

As for what they sing in Primary (there is no singing in Sunday school - hasn't been for decades - must be a long, long time since you've been to LDS Sunday school) - I think many of the songs they sing are not appropriate - for several reasons. Several of the songs in the LDS Hymnal are not appropriate either. But, and here's the cool part - nobody makes me sing them if I don't want to! :ymparty:

Mark wrote:Spiritual gadianton alert!

http://youtu.be/OWwOJlOI1nU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mark! I love you, man! Thank you for the little trip to my childhood - that was awesome - just what I needed. :ymhug:

EmmaLee wrote:

Jason wrote:

EmmaLee wrote:Well, that may be, but what matters most to me, personally, is how he actually votes on constitutional issues (that is the whole point of having a Congress, yes? Although with the SC effectively taking over Congress' role, maybe it's a moot point anymore X( ) - and his voting record is the best I've seen - especially amongst the current crop of presidential candidates. For any who may be interested, here is his current voting record -

http://www.thenewamerican.com/freedomin ... id=P000603" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Depends on who is defining what is Constitutional or not and what their measurement stick is...

I'm going by the link in my post, a magazine called The New American - and specifically, their "Freedom Index", which lists every member of Congress and how they actually voted, and how what they voted for or against is or isn't constitutional. I've read TNA regularly for many years - and while I don't agree with everything in its pages, I do agree with a good 95%+ of it. It's the best measuring stick, if you will, of constitutional interpretation that, I believe, actually understands the document and the original intent of the Founders. Click on the link and see what you think (hey, a rhyme! :p ).

I've read the Bircher's mag a plenty over the years. Pretty good organization but they were compromised some time ago as well....I still have somewhere in my collection one of the early copies of "The Politician" by Robert Welch...which is a great insightful read by the way! Also a handwritten note somewhere in my collection of writings from then Apostle Ezra Taft Benson with a copy of the book to the Joseph F. Smith - prophet at that time.

That said...not to say your list isn't good...probably the best. But the reality is you are relying on their research and interpretation...for better or worse...

I would like changes to our government by getting the special interest groups of corporations and liberal interest groups out. As it stands now, our congress-people are bought sold like cattle or slaves. Perhaps removing the ability of either the Democratic party or the Republican party to hold a majority in either branch of congress is needed along with a limited number of terms. We really shouldn't have career politicians because they are useless bloody wankers. I firmly think that the voice of the people should rise up and declare "No more hogging Congress, Democrats and Republicans!". It is a wonder our country even functions these days.

I am deciding more and more to be involved in a political party that has only cat candidates. Cats would do a better job of running our government than our current congress. I also consider a political party, Imperial, which would have its chief platforms be based on what worked about the Star Wars Galactic Empire. The Imperial Party, it could use the Imperial symbol from Star Wars. I don't feel that Congress actually cares for America.

How long before our congress or two political parties (Which is unconstitutional for them to be the only parties anyone can be a part of, as there is nothing in our constitution that says there can be only two recognized parties) are a threat to our freedoms? Why are they allowed to monopolize control? Why do we all special interests and corporations to trade our congress-people like cattle or sheep? This is a disgrace and must change. Get corporations, which are evil and solely interested in profit out, and get out their rich minions. Get special interests out with their minions.

The Founding Fathers believed in government for the people, by the people; not government for the people by the corporations and special interest groups. They would be ashamed of how terrible our country has gone.

Jason wrote:

EmmaLee wrote:

Jason wrote:

EmmaLee wrote:Well, that may be, but what matters most to me, personally, is how he actually votes on constitutional issues (that is the whole point of having a Congress, yes? Although with the SC effectively taking over Congress' role, maybe it's a moot point anymore X( ) - and his voting record is the best I've seen - especially amongst the current crop of presidential candidates. For any who may be interested, here is his current voting record -

http://www.thenewamerican.com/freedomin ... id=P000603" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Depends on who is defining what is Constitutional or not and what their measurement stick is...

I'm going by the link in my post, a magazine called The New American - and specifically, their "Freedom Index", which lists every member of Congress and how they actually voted, and how what they voted for or against is or isn't constitutional. I've read TNA regularly for many years - and while I don't agree with everything in its pages, I do agree with a good 95%+ of it. It's the best measuring stick, if you will, of constitutional interpretation that, I believe, actually understands the document and the original intent of the Founders. Click on the link and see what you think (hey, a rhyme! :p ).

I've read the Bircher's mag a plenty over the years. Pretty good organization but they were compromised some time ago as well....I still have somewhere in my collection one of the early copies of "The Politician" by Robert Welch...which is a great insightful read by the way! Also a handwritten note somewhere in my collection of writings from then Apostle Ezra Taft Benson with a copy of the book to the Joseph F. Smith - prophet at that time.

That said...not to say your list isn't good...probably the best. But the reality is you are relying on their research and interpretation...for better or worse...

Not "only" on their research and interpretation - it's one of my main sources for news and voting records of Congress though. I also read/study the Constitution itself, The Making of America, Dave Barton's material, and too much else to list here. I also pray about it all. ;)

ok, just gotta say it.

I watched the Republican Presidential Debate last night. When they weren't putting me to sleep reciting statistics, they were yipping at each other like a bunch of nap-deprived Chihuahuas.

Please, Lord, give us someone worthy of the job.

[/quote]My .02. They have something on him and are using it to pressure him to vote how they want. Blackmail is a massively strong motivator and is, IMO, the driving force behind why the vast majority of Congresspersons (see how PC I am?!) vote the way they do. Some are just ignorant; some are truly evil; but most probably got caught with their literal and/or proverbial pants down and the powers that be are exquisitely good at using that to their advantage.[/quote]

I believe that they are threatened - they will kill their wives and their children, grand children! Its more than money for some! I believe they already have bought them and trapped them before they ever land in DC! They have to know they will play, before they throw the millions at them. I did some research on a politician in Utah few years back, can't remember who, and there is a corrupt attorney I know who donated to both candidates. I'm thinking it was Sean Reyes - yes, Reyes vs. Swallow. He donated the same amount (like $5,000) to both men. I already know the attorney is in the mob, so it says a lot. They fund both sides to show they are on their side, then see if they will play. I believe that they already have corrupt money funneled into their campaign funds, maybe personal accounts, before they win.

I know there is voter fraud in Utah. The last election was not supposed to be Governor Herbert winning another term. One of the candidates was the chosen one who was to win. He was promised the seat from his brothers in the GOP. And it did not happen as planned. He later told a friend of mine that he was the one chosen to win, and that the GOP turned on him.

iWriteStuff wrote:ok, just gotta say it.

I watched the Republican Presidential Debate last night. When they weren't putting me to sleep reciting statistics, they were yipping at each other like a bunch of nap-deprived Chihuahuas.

Please, Lord, give us someone worthy of the job.

Why should He? Do we, as a people, deserve it???

I think we'll get what we have coming to us as a whole.....otherwise He's taking away a whole lot of agency for a very small minority....and that doesn't typically (or historically) happen until fully ripe and not any hope left of repentance....or a whole lot of repentance stimulus is needed...

Jason wrote:

iWriteStuff wrote:ok, just gotta say it.

I watched the Republican Presidential Debate last night. When they weren't putting me to sleep reciting statistics, they were yipping at each other like a bunch of nap-deprived Chihuahuas.

Please, Lord, give us someone worthy of the job.

Why should He? Do we, as a people, deserve it???

I think we'll get what we have coming to us as a whole.....otherwise He's taking away a whole lot of agency for a very small minority....and that doesn't typically (or historically) happen until fully ripe and not any hope left of repentance....or a whole lot of repentance stimulus is needed...

Plague or warfare or both?

I'd favor plague, if for no other reason than the factor that if we actually won a war, that would make us boastful and less likely to repent. Only God can save us from a plague.

iWriteStuff wrote:

Jason wrote:

iWriteStuff wrote:ok, just gotta say it.

I watched the Republican Presidential Debate last night. When they weren't putting me to sleep reciting statistics, they were yipping at each other like a bunch of nap-deprived Chihuahuas.

Please, Lord, give us someone worthy of the job.

Why should He? Do we, as a people, deserve it???

I think we'll get what we have coming to us as a whole.....otherwise He's taking away a whole lot of agency for a very small minority....and that doesn't typically (or historically) happen until fully ripe and not any hope left of repentance....or a whole lot of repentance stimulus is needed...

Plague or warfare or both?

I'd favor plague, if for no other reason than the factor that if we actually won a war, that would make us boastful and less likely to repent. Only God can save us from a plague.

Much has been written/posted on here concerning the plague and purple spots....