Allodial Title, Covenant and Deed

[davedan]

Robert Sinclair has been very outspoken on this forum about what he interprets to be a command of God for the LDS Church Prophets and Apostles to use tithing and other Church funds to purchase and "deed" individual members land. Because he is open in his criticism, I am being open in my defense of LDS Leadership.

If I am understanding correctly, Robert believes that a solution to our proverty, inequality, and social injustice problem rests in giving everyone their own piece of private property, and a house with working plumbing, AC, heating, and a roof that doesn't leak. If the LDS Church would use its money to buy and deed land and houses to all its members, this equity of private property ownership among members would establish the foundation of Zion.

I see a parallel between Denver Snuffer and Robert Sinclair. Denver Snuffer's overall message was that LDS members have a right to seek and receive the Second Comforter, and if we have not seen the face of the Savior yet, its the fault of Church leadership. According to Mr. Snuffer, modern church leaders are holding us back from realizing the fullness of blessing promised by Joseph Smith and in scripture.

Likewise, Robert Sinclair has also been openly critical of our current LDS Apostles and Prophets, claiming that their missappropriation of tithing funds is holding us back from realizing the blessings of Zion. We do not have a Zion society and it is the fault of Church leadership who do not understand scriptures or the principles of Zion.

The first issue here is that I believe LDS members should not criticize LDS Leadership. There is order in Christ's kingdom and we are warned in scripture about "evil speaking" and "steadying the ark". But Bro. Sinclair would say, he is not criticizing LDS Leadership but only pointing to scripture which he interprets as criticizing the modern LDS Church and its wayward leadership. Robert, in a way, is indirectly claiming by his assertions that his spiritual understanding of scripture is superior to the Prophets and Apostles and anyone else.

"And thou shalt not command him who is at thy head, and at the head of the church;" (Doctrine and Covenants, D&C 28:6)

Now some of Robert Sinclair's interpretation of scripture may be correct. I read the "Second Comforter" by Denver Snuffer and much of what Mr. Snuffer was saying is correct. All people should seek to "have their calling and election made sure" and "approach the heavenly gift." Likewise, Bro. Sinclair may be correct that scripture teaches that part of the foundation of Zion may be property rights "with a covenant and deed that cannot be broken".

Right or wrong, my issue with Mr. Snuffer and Bro. Sinclair is not the correctness or incorrectness of they are saying but their veiled criticism of LDS Leadership. It seems like they are saying that LDS Leadership is holding us back and if LDS Leadship would "get with the program" we could establish Zion today, we could see the face of the Savior today.

Israel and the Early LDS Church was originally established by giving inheritances of land. Although, I will point out that this had more to do with the situation of, in the case of Israel, the nation took over and came into control of a large tract of land and had to divide it up. Isreali Leadership could have kept all the land and only rented it out Likewise in the Early LDS Church, according to the laws of the time you could only buy allottments of 640 or 320 acres at a time. So in the beginning, only a few LDS members could apply for and purchase cheap land. So, now what do you do with it. Does the United Firm, give it away, sell it at a profit, or rent it out?

Recently, forum members have been discussing the idea of Allodial title. I think the lack of true Allodial Tile in the US is an important explanation of why the LDS Leadership cannot now use Church funds to purchase land and homes and freely distribute them to members with "a covenant and deed that cannot be broken".

Allodial Title is a title upon land that the government can not take away by taxes, or eminent domain or for any reason. The States of TX abd NV have a stripped-down, limited form of allidial title, but it simply involves pre-paying property tax and still is subject to eminent domain and must be renewed after death by the person inheriting the land. Because there is no true allodial title in America, the LDS Church cannot buy and gift land to its members "with a covenant and deed that cannot be broken" even if they wanted to. There is no true allodial title in the US or is the Church to establish Zion in Nevada and pre-pay everyone's property tax? Is Zion to be established in Nevada?

If the LDS Church were to purchase and gift land "with a covenant and deed that cannot be broken" to all its members, how would that work? Who gets the best land? Does that include a house? Who pays the property tax? How big of house do I get? What happens if my AC breaks? Who fixes my leaky roof? No fair, they got a house with a pool and I didn't, Where's my pool, I deserve a pool! Etc etc.

What LDS Leadership is doing, is that Churches and non-profits can buy land in the US that is NOT subject to property tax. So, in a way, non-profits are the only groups that can own property in allodium or close to it. So, the LDS Church is buying land and building churches, temples, and welfare farms to provide as much equality in physical and spiritual things that the law currently allows.

Will Robert Sinclair reject this explaination? Will he cease to criticize LDS Leadership on this point?

[Robert Sinclair]

Where there is desire and a will to fullfill the word of God, there is always a way.

Laws in the United States of America can be changed by a vote of the people for the people.

Your elected represenatives may sit down with you, and discuss drafting the "Ordinances of Justice" whether it be in the tax code, or somewhere else.

Have faith, your Jewish counterparts, in this land of America, need the same "Ordinances of Justice" drafted and enacted into law, that they also may freely impart homes and lands, to help others become self sufficient, as is taught by their leaders, as the highest levels of righteousness, of temporal charity one can impart, setting others up, to be self sufficient.

They also, need the laws amended to practice their religious beliefs as well.

There are LDS of Ephraim, and Jews of Judah in the halls of government, that will fullfill Ezekiel 37:15-23 where they both together, defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions, but together they shall both serve God.♡

The scriptures written are true, read them and wax stronger and stronger in the words of the LORD, that yes, none are exempt from this law who belong to the church (or synagouge) of the living God---------

"In your temporal things you shall be equal, and this not grudgingly, for food and for raiment; for an inheritance; for houses and for lands, in whatsoever circumstances I the Lord, shall place them, and whithersoever I, the Lord shall send them."

You can have and manifest great faith in Jesus Christ, that there is more than enough and to spare, to do this which he has commanded, or not.

It is a choice of freewill to hearken unto the Good Shepherd's voice, and weep and howl, and sound the alarm, and spare not, and shew his people their transgressions of the perversion of equity and loftiness or not, your choice, your decision.

For it is written-----

"Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision."

Decide whether to hearken unto Jesus Christ, or the wind of men, the freewill choice is yours, in this your day of probation upon this earth.

Decide wisely.♡

[Ezra]

I never thought of it that way. Thanks for making that connection of no allodiol titles no covenant and deed that cannot be broken.

[Robert Sinclair]

It is the promise of God to give his righteous children that keep his commandments, inheritances in the lands of promise, that cannot be broken, by the hands of his righteous servants, like Enoch, and Melchizedek, and others that serve him likewise, and he will keep all his promises which he has given.♡

[Ezra]

Do you have one Robert?

[Robert Sinclair]

I live in a 1911 rehabbed lava rock farmhouse with 24" thick walls, on 7.58 acres zoned R4, with my family we purchased from a bank, seeking to unload it, a little over a year ago for $105,900.00 with 3% down through a government fha203k rehab loan, fixed rate at 3.75% for 30 years, which included another $150,000.00 to rehab the farmhouse which was totally trashed, having been vacant for years. I am quite secure that as long as we keep the well and septic working, and pay our monthly mortgage, and taxes and insurance, our family will have a place to live as long as we desire to live here. America is a safe place to invest and people and investors from all over the world are investing in land in America because of how safe it is. A firm from Thailand just paid almost a billion dollars for a 295,000 acre timberland tract of land, near where I live in Oregon, like the church did in Florida, of timberland and housing for around $500,000,000.00 because America is a safe place to have land, without worry much about having it taken away from you, like in war torn areas like Syria.

Laws can be put upon the books to safeguard inheritances, but in the case of Doctrine and Covenants section 42, I think the LORD was meaning between the church and the poor, that once given, it was one way, and could not be taken back.♡

[Ezra]

So as long as you can afford to pay the banks and government your covenant and deed most likely won't be broken?

[Robert Sinclair]

Think clearly of what is being said to do in Doctrine and Covenants, section 42, and I feel the spirit of that verse 30, is between the giver and the poor. That it is one way, and will not be broken by some other clause in the covenant and deed by restriction, such as on my land, which many years ago forbade the distilling of alcohol on this our property, recorded in the title report. All kinds of things can be placed upon a deed, where you could state that it would revert back to you in 50 years or the oil rights, or water rights ect, can have all manner of clauses where it may be broken or ended. So I feel the spirit of those words, "cannot be broken" is that you are handing this over to the poor, free and clear on your part. I hope that helps a little with understanding the "intent" of the word of God. But you may get upon your knees and pray to know his will further if you so desire.♡

[dauser]

Without allodial title, the property is owned by the international debt collectors...as collateral to the nation's debt. We may use it but it must be registered and we must pay for using such, according to their dictates.

The Church however has allodial title, like the railroads have allodial title...perhaps deeding over our land, buildings, businesses, vehicles and ourselves (all of which have liens thereon) to the church...perhaps that will release the iron grip of the lien holder on what was our stuff. The world ends up with only 2 landlords, Lucifer's kingdom of zio banks and Jesus' church and kingdom...

You and your stuff may one day either belong to Lucifer or Jesus.

It may difficult to deed over land, buildings, businesses, vehicles and ourselves if their is a debt against it.

Perhaps Jesus' grace is sufficient and He can redeem, out of hock, not only our selves from bondage but also our stuff.

Get out debt and when the bishop comes for it...sign it over.

[Robert Sinclair]

The dictates of men, can and will be changed by the elders of Israel from both Houses of Joseph and Judah, working together, as this is the promised land of the New Jerusalem, and God's will shall be fullfilled.♡

[davedan]

Robert,

I like the idea of allodial title and real land ownership. But I think we need to recognize the current laws of the land and cut LDS leadership some slack.

The LDS Church leadership is teaching for members to get out of debt and encourage members to pay off their mortgages as soon as they are able.

Allodial title is not something the LDS Church can give its members at this time.

I look forward to when the Elders of Judah assist. Maybe when Judah and Joseph become one is when this will be fullfilled.

[Robert Sinclair]

I have not read in the law of God "Allodial title", but I have read a "covenant and a deed that cannot be broken", which when given from me to you, I see as unencumbered with deed restrictions or conditions put there by me, upon you, where if you break our agreement, I get the property back.

I feel the intent and spirit of D&C 42, is that when the church or I give to you, it is one way, and no take backs, period, ever.

Once I impart this property to a poor person or the church, this gift, cannot be taken back, by any side agreement or restriction I put upon the covenant and deed imparted, thus it cannot be broken, by me.

Same with the church to the poor, no take backs.

This is the feeling or spirit, I have from reading section 42.

I feel if you desire more, you may ask heavenly father of his intent for his children, in verse 30.♡

[davedan]

Allodial title is not a scriptural term but it is the term to describe unencumbered land ownership.

What we need to do is pressure congress to institute unencumbered land ownership in America.

Without allodial title the LDS Church cannot give "a covenant and deed" to the poor. The government would confiscate all the land from the poor for not paying property taxes.

And who is going to pay for neighborhood association fees.

[Robert Sinclair]

Yes, represenatives should be approached about these things, but I would not want to stand before Jesus Christ and say for decades and centuries, the poor of the church had to go without covenants and deeds imparted.

Because there in no way, the bishops and home teachers and visiting teachers and fellow members would allow that to happen to one of their own members, they were called to help serve watch over, that taxes or fees, would take away one's home who had fell on hard times.♡

So no more excuses, let us seek to see the word and celestial law of God is fullfilled, this coming next April General Conference, "if" at all possible, to get back on track, repairing this breach in equity of the fruits, and restoring the paths of "All things common among us".♡

[davedan]

There is evidence to support the idea that housing the poor works and actually reduces costs.

Utah and other western states have a "housing first" initiative where the state is paying to house homeless. In reality, welfare is the jurisdiction of religion and not the state (James 1:27).

But research on the program is that the state spends less money overall by housing the homeless.

[Robert Sinclair]

Section 42, called the "law to be embraced by the church" says covenants and deeds for inheritances of stewardships sufficient for the support of the poor, is to be imparted to them from the storehouse treasury, before any "residue" is used for buildings of worship, or lands ect, for the public benefit of the members, and none who read this section with a prayerful heart, can deny these things. The words "cannot be broken" simply means, one way, no take backs, once it is imparted, no stings attached.

Housing the poor is the will of God, as is written in Section 70, equal in your temporal things for homes and lands, food and raiment.

None who read this section called "the foundation of the church", can deny these things as well.

Sections 42 & 58 & 70 all add up as instructions on how to have "all things common among you" as testified in the law of Moses, and in the book of Acts with Peter when Christ set up his first chuch in Jerusalem, as the stick of the House of Judah's witness. Then you have the witness of the House of Joseph in 4th Nephi, in the Americas, of "All things common among them", and instructions on exactly how to accomplish this in D&C 42, 58, &70 called the stick of Ephraim, because it is in his hands from God, with the stick of Judah, joined together into "One Stick" that all false doctrine might be laid to rest, and that the people may learn, to be confounded no more, on how to treat the poor among them perfectly.--------

"Equal in their temporal things and this not grudgingly, for homes and lands, food and raiment, no matter where the LORD places you, or your circumstances."

None who seek to see these things testified by so many witnesses, can deny these things before the judgement seat of Jesus Christ.

Good to see that you are equal, as so many have testified, even as it is written in Jacob 5:74-75, that they were no more corrupt, but------

"They became like unto one body; and the fruits were equal"

"Most precious unto him"

So become most precious unto him, keeping all his commandments as is written in this Jacob 5:72----

"And it came to pass that the servants did go and labor with their mights; and the LORD of the vineyard labored also with them; and they did obey the commandments of the LORD of the vineyard in all things."

Yes, "in all things".♡

[Robert Sinclair]

davedan,

It has been my desire to see a wonderful Thanksgiving and Christmas season where we can all give thanks, that everyone in this church will have a home of their own, free and clear, to pray and live and work from, as a safe place of sanctuary for all, none fearful of being cast out upon the street, for any reason, no child left in want or tears, or even any adults.♡

[Analyzing]

davedan, I appreciate the time and respectful manner you took to address your disagreement. Thank you.

I ask, respectfully, if in giving your explanation(allodial title) for the Church not giving deeds, if you are putting words into the mouths of the Prophets? I respect searching for answers and using logic. I have and do the same thing in many circumstances. That is why this is a question not an accusation.

I thought that we may do well to remember the story of Israel inheriting the promised land. Deuteronomy 1. vs 1-5 & 9-18 redacted.

[color=#The Lord our God spoke to us in Horeb, saying: ‘You have dwelt long enough at this mountain. Turn and take your journey, and go to the mountains of the Amorites, to all the neighboring places in the plain, in the mountains and in the lowland, in the South and on the seacoast, to the land of the Canaanites and to Lebanon, as far as the great river, the River Euphrates. See, I have set the land before you; go in and possess the land which the Lord swore to your fathers; to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; to give to them and their descendants after them.


So we departed from Horeb, and went through all that great and terrible wilderness which you saw on the way to the mountains of the Amorites, as the Lord our God had commanded us. Then we came to Kadesh Barnea. And I said to you, ‘You have come to the mountains of the Amorites, which the Lord our God is giving us. Look, the Lord your God has set the land before you; go up and possess it, as the Lord God of your fathers has spoken to you; do not fear or be discouraged.

And everyone of you came near to me and said, ‘Let us send men before us, and let them search out the land for us, and bring back word to us of the way by which we should go up, and of the cities into which we shall come.’ The plan pleased me well; so I took twelve of your men, one man from each tribe. And they departed and went up into the mountains, and came to the Valley of Eshcol, and spied it out. They also took some of the fruit of the land in their hands and brought it down to us; and they brought back word to us, saying, ‘It is a good land which the Lord our God is giving us.

Nevertheless you would not go up, but rebelled against the command of the Lord your God; and you complained in your tents, and said, ‘Because the Lord hates us, He has brought us out of the land of Egypt to deliver us into the hand of the Amorites, to destroy us. Where can we go up? Our brethren have discouraged our hearts, saying, “The people are greater and taller than we; the cities are great and fortified up to heaven; moreover we have seen the sons of the Anakim there. Then I said to you, ‘Do not be terrified, or afraid of them. The Lord your God, who goes before you, He will fight for you , according to all He did for you in Egypt before your eyes, and in the wilderness where you saw how the Lord your God carried you, as a man carries his son, in all the way that you went until you came to this place.’ Yet, for all that, you did not believe the Lord your God, who went in the way before you to search out a place for you to pitch your tents, to show you the way you should go, in the fire by night and in the cloud by day.

And the Lord heard the sound of your words, and was angry, and took an oath, saying, ‘Surely not one of these men of this evil generation shall see that good land of which I swore to give to your fathers, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh; he shall see it, and to him and his children I am giving the land on which he walked, because he wholly followed the Lord.’ The Lord was also angry with me for your sakes, saying, ‘Even you shall not go in there; Joshua the son of Nun, who stands before you, he shall go in there. Encourage him, for he shall cause Israel to inherit it. Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it. But as for you, turn and take your journey into the wilderness by the Way of the Red Sea.

Then you answered and said to me, ‘We have sinned against the Lord; we will go up and fight, just as the Lord our God commanded us.’ And when everyone of you had girded on his weapons of war, you were ready to go up into the mountain. And the Lord said to me, ‘Tell them, “Do not go up nor fight, for I am not among you; lest you be defeated before your enemies.”‘ So I spoke to you; yet you would not listen, but rebelled against the command of the Lord, and presumptuously went up into the mountain. And the Amorites who dwelt in that mountain came out against you and chased you as bees do, and drove you back from Seir to Hormah. Then you returned and wept before the Lord, but the Lord would not listen to your voice nor give ear to you. So you remained in Kadesh many days, according to the days that you spent there
[/color]

Edit: forgot the last verses and highlighting was wrong.

[davedan]

if you are putting words into the mouths of the Prophets?

This is an LDS forum. We can talk about social equity. We can talk about the principles of Zion. We can discuss the principle of unencumbered land ownership. What is even better is that several forum members (myself included) are even experimenting with implementing these principles on an individual and limited basis.

Forum members routinely take different sides of any issue. Some forum members choose to make criticisms against LDS leadership knowing LDS Leadership are not here to respond. I have taken the opposite position with, I hope, a reasoned response. Elder Ballard has invited LDS members to be active online and defend the Church and our faith.

I agree that if a forum member has a question/criticism against LDS Leadership, it does little good to post that criticism here when LDS leadership themselves are not present to answer for themselves.

Good point, we would all do well to avoid questioning/ criticizing those who are not here to answer. But my un-authoritative responses are sanctioned. The criticisms are not sanctioned.

[Robert Sinclair]

Is sound the alarm, of loftiness and perversion of equity criticism?

Or is it simply that which the LORD Jesus Christ has commanded to be done?

Is it righteousness to defend the perversion of equity?

Good to do, and hearken, unto that which the Good Shepherd has said to do.♡

[davedan]

We can sound the alarm concerning inequality. We don't need to criticize the Lord's anointed or direct them.

[isaacs2066]

Allodial title was never common in the United States under any circumstance.

"Cannot be broken" means that the united order cannot take it back if a person leaves the united order as it would be their real property.

Try again bro.

[Robert Sinclair]

The heads of Jacob and princes of the house of Israel of Ephraim, need to hear the cry, and alarm, and weeping and howling, and trumpet being blown, in Zion, of the loftiness and perversion of equity, as the LORD has commanded every bit as much as when leaders of churches commit child abuse or other crimes against God. To close your eyes to these things leads to blindness, and deafness, and spiritual crippling, even amonst the leaders, as well as the sheep.

Would you remain silent when the LORD has commanded that you not remain silent, but has commanded to shew my people their transgressions, and spare not?

Will you yourself fight against what the LORD himself has commanded that we do?

What will be your reasoning at the judgement bar of Christ, to not lift up your voice?

Decisions, decisions to be made.♡

[davedan]

Allodial title was never common in the United States under any circumstance.

"Cannot be broken" means that the united order cannot take it back if a person leaves the united order as it would be their real property.

Try again bro.

Good point. Allodial title has never been given to individuals in the US. Although churches and non-profits do not pay property tax.

Wiki- "In most states, property held by churches for the purpose of worship also has status similar to allodial title."

I believe the directive to give inheritances was dealing with the situation of only a few LDS Members (United Firm) being able to apply for and purchase super-cheap land. (320 acre plots). The Federal government only allowed people to purchase land in huge allotments.

The Church then had the decision of how to distribute the land so as to organize and build a city (too much for any one person). They could give it away, or sell it, or rent it, or keep it. The Lord instructed them to deed it to individual members.

Robert was saying the LDS Church should use tithing to buy individual members equitable land and houses instead of using tithing to build equitable churches and temples and welfare farms and canneries. (Robert's Housing-First Initiative)

Robert was claiming, that scripture calls for the LDS Church to use its revenue to purchase and gift property to all its members "with a covenant and deed that cannot be broken".

I was pointing out that the LDS Church cannot at this time, extend the allodial benifit it receives in its land purchases to its individual members. If members were to receive land, those properties would be subject to taxation. Consequently, in the case of the poor, much of that property would end up confiscated by the state for back taxes unless the Church perpetually paid their property taxes also.

So, the main point is, in such a scenario, I dont see the creation of a "covenant and deed that cannot be broken". Maybe one day, we will see the realization of this. But in our current situation, I don't seeing this course of action leading to the desired outcome.

[Robert Sinclair]

Use all the tithing you desire, to build all the temples and meetinghouses, or, to purchase all the tracts of land for welfare farms or any other public benefit you desire for the members, as there will be more than enough and to spare, with the "residue" left over, as the LORD has promised, just make sure all have homes and lands of stewardships, with covenants and deeds, that cannot be broken or taken back, sufficient for their support as the LORD has commanded.

This we all can agree, requires faith in the LORD Jesus Christ, that he does not lie, but that the windows of heaven, shall then open up, and pour out such blessings, that there will not be room enough to receive it. (See Malachi 3:10)

Good to manifest faith in the LORD Jesus Christ, that there is more than enough and to spare. (See 104:11-18)♡