Elder Oaks promoting political left

[iWriteStuff]

I whole point is made with, "Nevertheless, there was no law against a man’s belief; therefore, a man was punished only for the crimes which he had done; therefore all men were on equal grounds". The problem is laws are putting men on unequal ground. If you don't want to hire a smoker, a homosexual, or a person of color it is illegal. But if you want to fire a Christian for his beliefs it is okay. I think my problem with Elder Oaks' comments is that there are now laws in existence with which I cannot harmonize the gospel.

I don't disagree with your statement. My main point is identifying where Elder Oaks seems to think we should apply the cure: the hearts of men. If their hearts are changed, they won't desire sin. Until then, the laws are what we make them.

Make the people righteous, get righteous laws.

[h_p]

As our country continues to lurch toward a dictatorship, I think it's helpful to be reminded of our guidance from the scriptures. Note that there are conditional clauses placed on our sustaining and upholding the law:

We believe that all men are bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they reside, while protected in their inherent and inalienable rights by the laws of such governments; and that sedition and rebellion are unbecoming every citizen thus protected, and should be punished accordingly; and that all governments have a right to enact such laws as in their own judgments are best calculated to secure the public interest; at the same time, however, holding sacred the freedom of conscience.

This exculpates people such as Rosa Parks, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the Founding Fathers, and maybe even Kim Davis here.

[gkearney]

Here are some other early written constitutions to consider I think this list should dispel the notion of the U.S. Constitution being the "first written constitution" or for that matter the one in longest use, that honour goes to San Marino.

The Medina Charter, written and promulgated by Prophet Muhammad for the city-state of Medina in 622 A.D (It is interesting to note that central to this document was insuring the rights of the various religions of the city Jews, Muslims, Christians and pagans.)
Cyfraith Hywel (Wales) c. 942–950
Pravda Yaroslava and the later Ruska Pravda, (Russia) 1017 and 1054
Charter of Liberties (England) 1100
The Magna Carter 1215
Nomocanon of Saint Sava (Законоправило/Zakonopravilo) Serbia 1219
Golden Bull of 1222 Hungary
Dušan's Code (Душанов Законик/Dušanov Zakonik) Serbia 1349
Sachsenspiegel German states 1220-1230
Fetha Negest Ethiopia 1240
Golden Bull of 1356 Holy Roman Empire
Ancestral Injunctions 1375 Ming Dynasty China
Catalan constitutions 1283 to 1716 Catalonia (now Spain)
Carta de Logu 1392 Sardinia
Leges Statutae Republicae Sancti Marini 1600 San Marino (this constitution is still in use to this day, making it the world's oldest constitution still in use.)
Fundamental Orders (Connecticut) 1638
Instrument of Government 1653 to 1657 England, under Cromwell (gave us the ideas of a bicameralism, separation of powers, judicial review)
Corsican Constitution of 1755
Swedish Constitution of 1772

[mes5464]

I whole point is made with, "Nevertheless, there was no law against a man’s belief; therefore, a man was punished only for the crimes which he had done; therefore all men were on equal grounds". The problem is laws are putting men on unequal ground. If you don't want to hire a smoker, a homosexual, or a person of color it is illegal. But if you want to fire a Christian for his beliefs it is okay. I think my problem with Elder Oaks' comments is that there are now laws in existence with which I cannot harmonize the gospel.

I don't disagree with your statement. My main point is identifying where Elder Oaks seems to think we should apply the cure: the hearts of men. If their hearts are changed, they won't desire sin. Until then, the laws are what we make them.

Make the people righteous, get righteous laws.

I see your point and I agree with you that as a church we must focus on changing the hearts of the people. My tone with you is not one of contention and I hope that comes across in the text.

I think Elder Oaks advice is misguided in that it contradicts the quote you just made from Mosiah:

21 And behold, now I say unto you, ye cannot dethrone an iniquitous king save it be through much contention, and the shedding of much blood.
22 For behold, he has his friends in iniquity, and he keepeth his guards about him; and he teareth up the laws of those who have reigned in righteousness before him; and he trampleth under his feet the commandments of God;
23 And he enacteth laws, and sendeth them forth among his people, yea, laws after the manner of his own wickedness; and whosoever doth not obey his laws he causeth to be destroyed; and whosoever doth rebel against him he will send his armies against them to war, and if he can he will destroy them; and thus an unrighteous king doth pervert the ways of all righteousness.

The only reversal for the level of corruption we have today is "much contention, and the shedding of much blood". That same point was reaffirmed by President Benson, "No nation which has kept the commandments of God has ever perished, but I say to you that once freedom is lost, only blood—human blood—will win it back".

[Thomas]

Since LDS people are to be subject to laws of government, the Mormons should have surrendered themselves to Governor Boggs when he gave the extermination order, that ordered all Mormons to be killed. It was the law of the land and those wicked people disobeyed and fled Missouri. Now they will go to hell.

Hmm

[ebenezerarise]

Once again Elder Oaks continues to move more and more to the political left, especially on the issues of gay "rights"
http://www.ksl.com/?sid=37033080&nid=12 ... d=queue-16" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As someone who has lived as a Mormon my entire life in Utah I am shocked how far to the left politically that my "leaders" have moved. Not only does this new position toward the "center" goes against everything I have been taught in the church, it goes against the teachings of the scriptures and common sense.

Oaks=Disgrace

Once again we see an apostle criticized against a personal filter. Oaks is a disgrace? Who do you think YOU are? Just because he stakes a position different than your own doesn't necessarily make him wrong and it most certainly doesn't warrant this kind of un-Christlike condemnation.

I find it continually disappointing that there are those out there like you who hold apostles and prophets up like television shows to be reviewed.

[Thomas]

No thinking for yourself allowed. The thinking has been done already. You are not here to test your own sense o right and wrong. You are here to prove if you can be a mindless slave that will obey, even if the orders you receive are wrong and immoral.

God will bless you for being a mindless slave.

[samizdat]

Why criticize an Apostle of the Lord?


BSA has been taken over by bad actors. Do you then abandon BSA or take it back?

America has been taken over by bad actors. Do we abandon America or take her back?

Continued support of BSA should NOT be interpreted as any type of support of homosexuality.

America has now legalized both abortion and homosexual marriage, and Elder Oaks says it is our duty as citizens to uphold the laws that have been ratified by the Supreme Court.

How, in the name of heaven, is that taking our country back??? We are being told by one of our eminent leaders to condone grievous sin. It is truly shameful.

You have the Constitutional process of turning back said SCOTUS decisions that has to be obeyed. There are enough Democrats and pro abortion and pro gay marriage supporters in our halls of Congress and the Senate, to turn back ANY attempt to utilize the Constitutional process. There really is nothing we can do about this at the moment. Just teach your kids the TRUE order of marriage and the TRUE order of life.

We can gripe and moan about how anticonstitutional both abortion and gay marriage are. However, SCOTUS has determined that they are indeed constitutional, in their opinion. Good luck changing that.

[Zathura]

I find it continually disappointing that there are those out there like you who hold apostles and prophets up like television shows to be reviewed.

We are expected to review everything they say and compare it to what written scripture teaches.

[OhioState001]

Is Oaks forgetting that workplaces have to provide reasonable accommodation for religious beliefs unless they cause hardship? In the case of Kim Davis we could easily make an accommodation at no extra cost if they would simply allow one of her deputies to sign the licenses. We make accommodations for terrorists in GITMO we can make an accommodation for Kim Davis

[Lizzy60]

I believe that any Mormon who cannot see the danger in upholding and supporting laws that legalize infanticide and deviant sexual behavior has been blinded by the evils of Babylon.

We are moving farther and farther away from becoming a Zion people. It is going to take a major cleansing of the Church, and this land, for any strides toward Zion to commence.

The good news is that this cleansing has been prophesied from the beginning. Christ knows exactly what is going on, and has always known what would occur preceding His Second Coming.

[OhioState001]

“One generation of homosexual “marriage” would depopulate a nation, and, if sufficiently widespread, would extinguish its people. Our marriage laws should not abet national suicide.” –Dallin H. Oaks Principles to Govern. P. 19. 1984


Elder Oaks I'm a little confused here. You said pro gay marriage laws would be "national suicide" but now your hitting Kim Davis for standing up for her religious beliefs?

[Darren]

Is it time for the Elders to come forth and save the constitution?

The Original Constitution is this one established between Jesus Christ and his people in 43 A.D. at Lake Law, Sweden. All other constitutions come from and attempt to capsulize this Original Constitution.

THE “ORIGINAL CHARTER”

Up to about the year 1,000 A.D. all of the people of Scandinavia worked together on the basis of all being in the same BUSINESS one with another. This included the people of Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Iceland, almost all of the British Isles and other Colonies.

They worked together on the basis of all being in the same BUSINESS with one another because in those days they all had and used the “Original Charter of the Law,” which had written on it the PURPOSE OF THE LAW. Because they all had the same, one PURPOSE, on their Business Charter, they were all one BUSINESS.

Greco-Roman GOVERNMENT was entirely unused among them. (So, as we have seen, modern Americans are always talking about getting GOVERNMENT out and letting BUSINESS run things. But, they will never be able to until they all have a knowledge of and all subscribe to the single PURPOSE of their Law again, just as all of their Scandinavian Ancestors did, up to about the year 1,000 A.D.)

At about the year 1,000 all Scandinavians decided to stop working together strictly as a BUSINESS and allowed the Greco-Roman idea of GOVERNMENT into their lives instead. Prior to that their lives had all been “business-like”; from then on their lives would be mostly “fooling around.”

The hundred years after the year 1,000 A.D. was a very bloody 100 years for the Scandinavian peoples. During that 100 years they decided to introduce Greco-Roman GOVERNMENT among themselves so that after they conquered the Mediterranean Sea area (during what others named, the “Crusades”), with all of its trade, they would know how to administer it, with Greco-Roman GOVERNMENT or, in one word, “Money.”

That bloody 100 years ended with them essentially accomplishing their goal with their victory in the First Crusade. It was such a bloody 100 years IN Scandinavia, though, because in order to introduce “money” and Greco-Roman Government there, they had to DESTROY the copies of the Original Charter of the Law with everyone’s PURPOSE written down on it. This occurred during those 100 years except in Scandinavia’s very remote outpost across the Atlantic, on the fringe of America. That was Iceland.

Of course Iceland had to hand in all of its copies of the “Original Charter” to the Leaders of the Norwegian Vikings when the decision was made to change life among Scandinavians over from being strictly “business-like” to being mostly “fooling around,” that is, with the introduction of Money. But, there was a peculiarity in Iceland. The Ancestors of the Icelanders, who had first come there from Norway, were the most educated people in Norway. They left when they saw that life there was getting to be just more and more “fooling around,” as Scandinavia got ready for what it thought was a final showdown with Catholicism. They took all of their vast resources for learning with them from Norway to Iceland and have remained there in Iceland, as an entire people, the Most Educated Country in the World ever since. An example of this may be in place. The best place in the world to be from, with one exception, if you are of European extraction and want to know your Genealogy, is New England. Since the people of New England have been very orderly and literate from the beginning, have kept very thorough records and have had no Wars there that have destroyed their Records, a person may find a Record for nearly every one of his/her Ancestors who lived there, all of the way back to when New England was founded by the Pilgrims, in 1620 A.D. There is NOTHING like that available to any other people of European descent, with one exception. That one exception is Iceland. There is a record of every Icelander who has ever lived there. Every modern person of Icelandic blood may trace his or her ancestry back to the day when those first educated people from Norway came there, to found Iceland, in 870 A.D.

So, the Icelanders all handed in all of their copies of the Original Charter of the Law to the Leaders of Norway, to be destroyed, in the year 1,000 A.D. However, because they were all so educated, it is presumed that 100% of all Icelanders have been literate throughout the entire history of Iceland, THEY ALL REMEMBERED THE STORY.

When the Crusaders from Northwest Europe won the Fourth Crusade, in the year 1204, they at last had destroyed their more than a millennium-old Mortal Enemy, the Byzantine-Roman Empire. At that time they began to rule it. Now they had become the “Ultimate Issuing Authority” behind European Money in place of the Byzantines. This required, at the least, a very vicious extirpation of any remaining idea that the people of Northwest Europe still retained of what their PURPOSE was. When the Crusader Normans who ran England tried that in England they found that the Danish people in the Danelaw of Eastern England had grown to such numbers in that lush, fertile place that they and their Earls could force a termination of that effort. It was, then, these Free Sokemen, or “Commune Men,” from the Communes of the “Weapontakes” of the Danelaw, in England, who forced King John to sign the Magna Carta.

The people of Iceland were not quite so lucky. In their relatively barren land they had not multiplied in like strength as the Anglo-Danes of England’s Danelaw. They were relatively easy prey to the ruthless Crusader Normans, sent to Iceland, in these same times that produced the Magna Carta in England, to destroy there any surviving memory of the Purpose of Law. This was done quite completely, even bringing a temporary halt to the operations of the Parliament of the Commonwealth of Iceland, that had begun its operations in 930 A.D.

However, as these efforts progressed, to strengthen the concept of “Money” throughout Europe, by utterly destroying any remaining knowledge that the people of Northern Europe might have retained of the “Purpose” of their Law, they came upon what turned out to be an impossibility for their project, in the person of the man, Snorri Sturlusson, who had served as the High Steward of Iceland’s Commonwealth at the time the Magna Carta was signed, in England. The more that the Crusader Normans decreed that all knowledge of the Original Charter of the Law should be destroyed, the more this High Steward of the Law in Iceland “wrote it down.”

At last, in desperation the King of Norway ordered that this High Steward be killed. He was finally killed on September 22, 1241 A.D., but not before he had written down a quite complete copy of the ORIGINAL CHARTER OF THE LAW, which his friends in Iceland succeeded in hiding until long after the pressure was off. As a matter of fact, in a little more than 250 years, the pressure had turned the other way.

The Kaiser and the Pope wanted to take authority away from the Traditional Rulers of Northern Europe, around the year, 1500 A.D. They were doing this with their standard, age-old assertion of Socrates that none of the people had any idea at all what was good for them, that all of the rest of the people could agree with. The people of the “Sokes” or “Communes” of Scandinavia, on the other hand, in general had hung on, with an almost incredible tenacity, to every scrap of the tradition of their ancient Ancestors, in resistance to this universal assertion of Socrates that is the essence of the Catholicism that they all hated so desperately.

During these times, just before the 1500’s, when the Kaiser and the Pope were trying to reassert their authority over the Money of all of Europe, by their same “tried and always proven effective” assertions of Socrates and his fellow ancient Greek Philosophers, the King of Denmark was getting desperate as to what in the world he could do to protect his traditional base of power from the Kaiser and the Pope.

At this moment of his considerable distress, an Icelander got the word to him that the High Steward of Iceland, that had led Iceland at the time of the Magna Carta uprising in England, had written down almost the entirety of the Original Charter of Law.

At hearing this, the King had Copies of it duplicated and distributed throughout his Realm of Denmark, Iceland, Norway and Sweden, all joined under one King at that time, to be prepared against the ominous-seeming scheme that the Kaiser and the Pope seemed to be plotting. Eventually a Copy of that High Steward of Iceland’s Original Charter of the Law was eagerly welcomed into, and, with the Bible, made the heart of, nearly every home in Scandinavia, like a dearly beloved, long-lost child, who was long ago despaired of but who suddenly appeared back again at the house’s door.

With that heart-felt acceptance into the homes of almost all Scandinavians, the name of that former High Steward of Iceland, Snorri Sturlusson, became household words throughout Scandinavia, and almost all of the details of his Original Charter of the Law are now known by all Scandinavians. But, there is a catch.

All Scandinavians identified with this Original Charter very much. It explained where all of their Parliaments came from, where Juries came from, where all of their Rights came from, all of their Traditions, Folk Customs, Practices, Holidays, old way of Writing, their most ancient Monuments, the place-names in these Countries etc. etc. BUT, Scandinavians aren’t supermen. They are very human. The Original Charter is in form a wonderful, beautiful “Story.” Scandinavians delight in telling it, for all of the incredible number of explanations it gives for so many of the features of life in Scandinavia; however, on top of that, they hardly expect that the rest of the world would actually anticipate that they BELIEVE the Story.
They love the Story; they love to tell it; they love to talk about it; but they DON’T believe it.

Instead they treat the Story of the Original Charter of Law in, quite nearly, the same way that Americans treat the story of Santa Claus (which story is, indeed, contained in the Story of the Original Charter). They tell the story to their children; it has been required learning in Schools throughout Scandinavia, now, for a long while. They drill them in it and expect them to know it. They take tourists to the places where it was all supposed to have happened; they tell the tourists the Story; and then they have a big laugh. To them it is a joke, a joke that pervades life in Scandinavia, but a joke none-the-less.

This Story shows the origin of the “fairy tales” of the Germanic race, such as were collected by the Grimm Brothers in Germany. Indeed, we could say that the Scandinavians treat that Story in the same way that Americans do Fairy Tales.

Mormon Genealogy Work

When the Lord restored the Church He said that the “first responsibility” of the Latter-day Saints was “to seek after their dead”: to do Genealogy Work and learn of their Ancestors. Accordingly they began slowly putting together a more and more complete picture of where the Records of their Ancestors were. Before long they made a discovery. Almost all of the important Genealogical Records, of the People of Northern Europe, were kept in the Commune Meetinghouses of all of the thousands of tiny Communes into which all of “Germanic” or Nordic Europe is divided. So the Church undertook a massive program to microfilm all of these Commune Records throughout Europe. It then bored a Tunnel into a solid granite mountain near Salt Lake City and stored those precious Records in Vaults reached by the Tunnel. If a nuclear explosion went off at the door of the Tunnel, it still would not damage these very Valuable Records of Europe’s Communes inside. This is, incomparably, the ultimate authority on Earth as to what the true “-ISM” of the COMMUNES of Europe is.

The assembly of those Commune Records, into these Vaults, is largely the work of one man. His name was Archibald F. Bennett. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints formally advertised Archibald F. Bennett as, “the man who probably knew more about Genealogy than any man who has ever lived.”

In the early days of his career, in the early 1930’s, Archibald F. Bennett used to say that it was possible to prove that the Story in the Original Charter of the Law was not a fairy tale but THAT IT WAS TRUE. It could be proven by all of the most ancient Germanic Genealogies kept all over Europe. Toward the end of his career, in the early 1960’s, he used to say that it was possible to prove that the Story of the Original Charter was TRUE, THAT IT COULD BE DEFINITIVELY PROVEN THAT IT WAS TRUE FROM ALL OF THE COMMUNE RECORDS THAT HE HAD GATHERED FROM EVERY CORNER OF EUROPE.

“So, what is the Story of the Original Charter of the Law?”

...

The Story of our Law for little children pp. 61-64http://s98822910.onlinehome.us/thousand ... ur_law.pdf

[samizdat]

I believe that any Mormon who cannot see the danger in upholding and supporting laws that legalize infanticide and deviant sexual behavior has been blinded by the evils of Babylon.

We are moving farther and farther away from becoming a Zion people. It is going to take a major cleansing of the Church, and this land, for any strides toward Zion to commence.

The good news is that this cleansing has been prophesied from the beginning. Christ knows exactly what is going on, and has always known what would occur preceding His Second Coming.

What do you propose, Lizzy? How are you going to oppose laws legalizing abortion? Simple, don't have one. Or laws for gay marriage? Simple. Don't get gay married.

What I am saying, is that right now we don't have the capabilities of fighting against these laws. There are enough pro abortion Senators and Congressmen that would block ANY Constitutional process of people that would vote against abortion or gay marriage. Nothing short of insurrection and the shedding of blood would work right now, and the result would be civil war and millions of martyrs.

The Apostles are trying to keep a type of middle ground and asking for peace from both sides. That is what a peacemaker is supposed to do. Not throw bombs into the fire.

When Zion is established in the New Jerusalem there will be no borders. No United States of America. No Mexico. No Brazil. There will be the Kingdom of God, which will be established, on His terms, not on ours. The nations will all have been judged for their iniquities. We can try to establish Zion according to our own ideals and be examples of Zion like behavior but we can't leave the system behind as it will be from there where Zion is to be established in the last days.

[Serragon]

I disagree with this whole quote. There are simply some laws that can't be harmonized. And even if there is no law today that you can't harmonize, just give it time, eventually there will be a law that even the most liberal LDS can't harmonize. I actually feel that this council of his contradicts scripture and over a century of previous council.

Believers, he said, should seek to harmonize divine and civil laws. They should not assert the free exercise of religion to override every law and government action that could possibly be interpreted to infringe on institutional or personal religious freedom.

They also will be more persuasive if they explain their positions in terms understandable to those who don't share their beliefs.

"None," he said, "should adopt an 'us vs. them' mentality."

Believers also should submit to a law once it is sustained by the highest available authority, he said.

To sum up..

It is immoral for us to assert our constitutionally protected right of free exercise of religion.
It is moral to submit to any law once it has been approved by the government.

Is this really what the church leadership believes?

[Lizzy60]

Sam, I personally know members who say that abortion is not really that bad, and even okay in some circumstances, and they cite the fact that it has not been "condemned" by any GA in conference for many years. My own sister says that gay marriage is not an evil institution, as long as the couple are celibate, and cites the statement by Oaks and Christofferson several months ago.

It seems, to some members, that the Brethren are telegraphing more liberal views by their silence on the grave evils of infanticide and sexual deviancy. I adamantly oppose taking any sort of "middle ground" on these issues, no matter whether we in the US have any real hope of changing the laws.

[iWriteStuff]

The Apostles are trying to keep a type of middle ground and asking for peace from both sides. That is what a peacemaker is supposed to do. Not throw bombs into the fire.

Personally, I bring marshmallows to fires :ymparty:

I think the point most folks here are trying to make is that the gulf between good and evil is getting wider. "Middle ground" is somewhere in the gulf. Personally, I'd rather be on the "good" side of the ground.

My personal take on Elder Oaks' words is for us to stake out the high/good ground, invite others to it, but decline from open warfare with those on the other side of the gulf. Time and eternal judgment will take care of that.

[Serragon]

Once again Elder Oaks continues to move more and more to the political left, especially on the issues of gay "rights"
http://www.ksl.com/?sid=37033080&nid=12 ... d=queue-16" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As someone who has lived as a Mormon my entire life in Utah I am shocked how far to the left politically that my "leaders" have moved. Not only does this new position toward the "center" goes against everything I have been taught in the church, it goes against the teachings of the scriptures and common sense.

Oaks=Disgrace

Once again we see an apostle criticized against a personal filter. Oaks is a disgrace? Who do you think YOU are? Just because he stakes a position different than your own doesn't necessarily make him wrong and it most certainly doesn't warrant this kind of un-Christlike condemnation.

I find it continually disappointing that there are those out there like you who hold apostles and prophets up like television shows to be reviewed.

So apostles can state their personal opinions about political subjects without anyone questioning them?

I guess Abinadi was the bad guy then and King Noah good.

[Todd]

“One generation of homosexual “marriage” would depopulate a nation, and, if sufficiently widespread, would extinguish its people. Our marriage laws should not abet national suicide.” –Dallin H. Oaks Principles to Govern. P. 19. 1984


Elder Oaks I'm a little confused here. You said pro gay marriage laws would be "national suicide" but now your hitting Kim Davis for standing up for her religious beliefs?

This is conflicting, but the views and policies of the church have evolved in step (albeit a little behind) with the cultural climate of the day -- polygamy, interracial marriage, blacks and the priesthood/temple blessings, and now homosexuals.

We as members, who sustain the prophet, believe those changes were divinely inspired/revealed -- not done because of social pressure.

Perhaps Elder Oaks is also inspired? I believe so.

[Serragon]

“One generation of homosexual “marriage” would depopulate a nation, and, if sufficiently widespread, would extinguish its people. Our marriage laws should not abet national suicide.” –Dallin H. Oaks Principles to Govern. P. 19. 1984


Elder Oaks I'm a little confused here. You said pro gay marriage laws would be "national suicide" but now your hitting Kim Davis for standing up for her religious beliefs?

This is conflicting, but the views and policies of the church have evolved in step (albeit a little behind) with the cultural climate of the day -- polygamy, interracial marriage, blacks and the priesthood/temple blessings, and now homosexuals.

We as members, who sustain the prophet, believe those changes were divinely inspired/revealed -- not done because of social pressure.

Perhaps Elder Oaks is also inspired? I believe so.

And in this case, I believe he is not.

I remember being taught to hold to the iron rod as a child. Apparently the rod is now a limp piece of spaghetti.

[Zathura]

“One generation of homosexual “marriage” would depopulate a nation, and, if sufficiently widespread, would extinguish its people. Our marriage laws should not abet national suicide.” –Dallin H. Oaks Principles to Govern. P. 19. 1984


Elder Oaks I'm a little confused here. You said pro gay marriage laws would be "national suicide" but now your hitting Kim Davis for standing up for her religious beliefs?

This is conflicting, but the views and policies of the church have evolved in step (albeit a little behind) with the cultural climate of the day -- polygamy, interracial marriage, blacks and the priesthood/temple blessings, and now homosexuals.

We as members, who sustain the prophet, believe those changes were divinely inspired/revealed -- not done because of social pressure.

Perhaps Elder Oaks is also inspired? I believe so.

Look how this person presented his/her views without sounding condescending and condemning others . I hope everyone can follow this example.

[OhioState001]

“One generation of homosexual “marriage” would depopulate a nation, and, if sufficiently widespread, would extinguish its people. Our marriage laws should not abet national suicide.” –Dallin H. Oaks Principles to Govern. P. 19. 1984


Elder Oaks I'm a little confused here. You said pro gay marriage laws would be "national suicide" but now your hitting Kim Davis for standing up for her religious beliefs?

This is conflicting, but the views and policies of the church have evolved in step (albeit a little behind) with the cultural climate of the day -- polygamy, interracial marriage, blacks and the priesthood/temple blessings, and now homosexuals.

We as members, who sustain the prophet, believe those changes were divinely inspired/revealed -- not done because of social pressure.

Perhaps Elder Oaks is also inspired? I believe so.

That's not a good sign. It shows we are following and not leading.

[h_p]

What Elder Oaks said actually reaffirmed D&C 134. He left room for disregarding civil law when justified:

"So taught, we must, to the extent possible, obey both systems of law. When there are apparent conflicts, we must seek to harmonize them. When they are truly irreconcilable, we should join with others of like mind in striving to change the civil law to accommodate the divine. In all events, we must be very measured before ever deciding—in the rarest of circumstances—to disregard one in favor of the other."

D&C 134:12 even gives guidance on slavery, that I believe could be applied to our present situation:

We believe it just to preach the gospel to the nations of the earth, and warn the righteous to save themselves from the corruption of the world; but we do not believe it right to interfere with bond-servants, neither preach the gospel to, nor baptize them contrary to the will and wish of their masters, nor to meddle with or influence them in the least to cause them to be dissatisfied with their situations in this life, thereby jeopardizing the lives of men; such interference we believe to be unlawful and unjust, and dangerous to the peace of every government allowing human beings to be held in servitude.

No new ground is being broken here, folks. Things suck for us right now, and the suck is going to get much worse, but keep focused on Zion. All will be made right, and everybody will get justice eventually.

[tribrac]

I don't believe that it should be said "Elder Oaks Disappoints" because it places the op in the position of moral authority holding Elder Oaks accountable. The positions should be reversed, so that Oaks is the authority and the poster is accountable for a reaction to what Oaks said, Therefore, a more correct statment by the op would be "I am confused by recent statements made by Elder Oaks". To which the op might find that he is not alone.

Although I am not troubled by this particular topic, there have been other things that have confused me. Some of the recent changes in to emphasize the contributions of women for example. I don't mind the changes, but I wonder why if the changes bring the church into the correct order, why was the church taught a different way for so many years until the customs had become engrained in the culture. this question creates a little dissonance in my soul, and if the op is experiencing that dissonance I can empathize. I hope the op, and any others confused are able to find harmony. Good luck.

[Robin Hood]

As a Church we should get comfortably complacent in our relationship with Babylon?

The Viking blood in my veins is calling me to arms, to defend the "Liberties of the Gospel"

But alas I know that even this Country will fall of it's own weight, and some few elders will be ready to bear the constitution away and rebuild Zion.

We were commanded to “continue in” the Lord’s “goodness,” and our Church Leaders directed us in how to do that until it was time for Utah to become a State; and Federal Government Politicians prohibited our Church Leaders from continuing to promote this “United Order,” that was a “continuation” of “their Forefathers’ Guild System’s way of Working Together By The Law.”

“So, what do we do now?” “How are we going to obey the Lord’s words to us, to continue in His goodness, as our Forefathers did, and Work Together By The Law, as those “Puritan” Forefathers of the First Leaders of the Restored Church tried to do that as they invented “the World’s First Written Constitution,” to work together by, (copied today by every Government in the World but 6 of them) and who said, in their Second Edition of that, “The Articles of Confederation and Perpetual League of the United Colonies of New England” that they had all come to America, “With one and the same end and aim, to advance the Kingdom of Our Lord, Jesus Christ and to enjoy THE LIBERTIES OF THE GOSPEL IN PURITY!” (for which such a holy saying, their Enemies tried to deride them, with their “cooked-up” name for them of, “the Puritans”).

“Seriously, how can ‘the Way’ ‘open up’ for us to keep this, which the LDS people adhered to as a ‘very important instruction to us’ from Our Heavenly Father, when the Politicians who have control of the US Government have forbidden us to adhere to that?”

The Cleansing is coming. Are you ready?

God Bless,
Darren

"Copied by every government in the world but 6"?
Not true.
Not even nearly true.

Care to back up your statement mr hood?

Saudi Arabia, Syria, Libya, Jordan, United Arab Emerites, Yemen, Oman, Russia, Iran, China, Vietnam, Cuba, Laos, Somalia, Greece.......... I make that 15 and I've barely started!