Elder Oaks promoting political left

[Col. Flagg]

Don't know why people have a problem with what Elder Oaks said. Just because something is legal does not make it right or moral or just. Many things in society are legal and also immoral and wicked. He did not say that gay marriage is right, good, moral, just, ect. He just is saiding that if you are employed, as an employee you need to do your job as expected of you. If you don't like what your job entails, quit your job. Public servants have a responsibility to do their jobs. If I choose to work at a bar, I have to expect I will have to serve people beer. It part of the job description. Gay marriage is legal in America whether we like it or not. If your job description includes giving out marriage licenses, you have to give them to gays. If you don't like it, find a new job. Simply doing your job does not mean however that you endorse everything you do on your job. Giving gays a license to marry at work does not mean you are obligated to support gay marriage anymore than a cashier who takes money from a prostitute to buy condoms means they support or endorse prostitution.

The point we are trying to make in expressing our disappointment in Bro. Oaks comments is that he abdicated his moral duty to stand against immorality by simply saying it is our duty to recognize a law contrary to the nature and laws of God since it is now on the books. He was behaving exactly as a lawyer would while looking good for the government. :p

[carbon dioxide]

Once again Elder Oaks continues to move more and more to the political left, especially on the issues of gay "rights"
http://www.ksl.com/?sid=37033080&nid=12 ... d=queue-16" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As someone who has lived as a Mormon my entire life in Utah I am shocked how far to the left politically that my "leaders" have moved. Not only does this new position toward the "center" goes against everything I have been taught in the church, it goes against the teachings of the scriptures and common sense.

Oaks=Disgrace

Once again we see an apostle criticized against a personal filter. Oaks is a disgrace? Who do you think YOU are? Just because he stakes a position different than your own doesn't necessarily make him wrong and it most certainly doesn't warrant this kind of un-Christlike condemnation.

I find it continually disappointing that there are those out there like you who hold apostles and prophets up like television shows to be reviewed.

Some people can't walk and chew gum at the same time. Does anyone really seriously believe the Church has changed its position on gay marriage even 1%? Oaks is speaking to a post Supreme Court reality that may suck but is reality. As citizens, we can reject gay marriage but when we are clocked in at work, we have to do our job even if that sometimes means the job stinks on occasion. If one does not like it, find a new profession.

[carbon dioxide]

Don't know why people have a problem with what Elder Oaks said. Just because something is legal does not make it right or moral or just. Many things in society are legal and also immoral and wicked. He did not say that gay marriage is right, good, moral, just, ect. He just is saiding that if you are employed, as an employee you need to do your job as expected of you. If you don't like what your job entails, quit your job. Public servants have a responsibility to do their jobs. If I choose to work at a bar, I have to expect I will have to serve people beer. It part of the job description. Gay marriage is legal in America whether we like it or not. If your job description includes giving out marriage licenses, you have to give them to gays. If you don't like it, find a new job. Simply doing your job does not mean however that you endorse everything you do on your job. Giving gays a license to marry at work does not mean you are obligated to support gay marriage anymore than a cashier who takes money from a prostitute to buy condoms means they support or endorse prostitution.

The point we are trying to make in expressing our disappointment in Bro. Oaks comments is that he abdicated his moral duty to stand against immorality by simply saying it is our duty to recognize a law contrary to the nature and laws of God since it is now on the books. He was behaving exactly as a lawyer would while looking good for the government. :p

I don't see he was doing anything wrong. There is no indication at all in his words that he sees gay marriage as moral and nobody who reads his words would come to a conclusion that he saw it as moral. If a clerk gives a license to a gay couple, they are not declaring the marriage to be good. They are simply following the requirements for the job. There are things I do at my job I don't like but I do them because I have to as condition of employment. Anyone who thinks that Oaks and the Church have not made a strong stand against gay marriage simply have been out to lunch for far too long. Look at the totality of what Oaks and the Church has said. Not just one speech regarding on specific issue that affects really only a small number of people.

[carbon dioxide]

Since LDS people are to be subject to laws of government, the Mormons should have surrendered themselves to Governor Boggs when he gave the extermination order, that ordered all Mormons to be killed. It was the law of the land and those wicked people disobeyed and fled Missouri. Now they will go to hell.

Hmm

We are not subject to all laws. If a law is passed that requires us to offer up our virgin daughters to Bill Clinton, we are not obligated to follow that law. We are required to follow just, constitutional laws. We are not required to follow laws that are wicked and unconstitutional. Daniel is an example. The king decreed that nobody could pray. That rule Daniel could not follow and he was just not to follow it even though it was the "law". If one is a clerk and they give out marriage licenses, if giving one to a gay couple goes beyond the limits of conscience, they can stand up for their beliefs and not grant the license by putting in their letter of resignation.

[buffalo_girl]

Stacy Oliver said:
So, they fired a quack professor, not for being a quack, but so that they could get the estimable pleasure of having Cheney speak at some boring event? No, I don't think it is reasonable to infer something like that.

Col. Flagg said:
That 'quack' Professor not only now has a multitude of Scientists backing him up, including Dr. Jeffrey Farrer at BYU and also a prominent Scientist from the University of Coppenhagen (in addition to thousands of Architects and Engineers), he was also directly threatened by a government thug who told him if he knew what was good for him, he'd cease and desist with his research. The threat forced he and his wife to move to Missouri under the radar. You're not making wise or courageous comments with your posts Stacy.

Referring to Dr. Jones as 'a quack professor' reveals in you an extremely closed mind and heart, Stacy.

On another issue playing out here in North Dakota in the summer of 2002, I was forced to question what I was witnessing with my own eyes. Even subsequent research which substantiated what I was seeing left me in a certain 'state of denial' - UNTIL - I received several threats to my life should I take my questions and research any further for public scrutiny.

You know, up until receiving those threats I probably could have been more easily convinced that I was just imagining what was appearing over my head day after day, night after night that horrible, long summer.

Years later, someone on this Forum posted an Ensign article published in 1972 which further confirmed the reality and truth of what I had found through my observations and research during a period when the internet allowed even 'quack shepherdesses' in North Dakota to access global scientific research, patents, and military libraries.

[Serragon]

Once again Elder Oaks continues to move more and more to the political left, especially on the issues of gay "rights"
http://www.ksl.com/?sid=37033080&nid=12 ... d=queue-16" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As someone who has lived as a Mormon my entire life in Utah I am shocked how far to the left politically that my "leaders" have moved. Not only does this new position toward the "center" goes against everything I have been taught in the church, it goes against the teachings of the scriptures and common sense.

Oaks=Disgrace

Once again we see an apostle criticized against a personal filter. Oaks is a disgrace? Who do you think YOU are? Just because he stakes a position different than your own doesn't necessarily make him wrong and it most certainly doesn't warrant this kind of un-Christlike condemnation.

I find it continually disappointing that there are those out there like you who hold apostles and prophets up like television shows to be reviewed.

Some people can't walk and chew gum at the same time. Does anyone really seriously believe the Church has changed its position on gay marriage even 1%? Oaks is speaking to a post Supreme Court reality that may suck but is reality. As citizens, we can reject gay marriage but when we are clocked in at work, we have to do our job even if that sometimes means the job stinks on occasion. If one does not like it, find a new profession.

First, she is not an employee clocking in. She is an elected official. There is a night and day difference.

Second, we have a strong history in the USA of civil disobedience by public officials.

Third, the requirement that someone quit their job because someone decides to force them to do something they believe to be immoral is discrimination. This is especially true if the requirements change in the middle of their service.

Fourth, public officials use their personal discretion all the time. The police do not arrest everyone for every crime, as each of us routinely breaks the law daily without even knowing it. Many DA's decide not to prosecute crimes that have been committed. Many judges deviate from written law and sentencing standard. Many clerks do not issues licenses for firearms, building permits, etc when there is no legal reason to deny them.

[Serragon]

Since LDS people are to be subject to laws of government, the Mormons should have surrendered themselves to Governor Boggs when he gave the extermination order, that ordered all Mormons to be killed. It was the law of the land and those wicked people disobeyed and fled Missouri. Now they will go to hell.

Hmm

We are not subject to all laws. If a law is passed that requires us to offer up our virgin daughters to Bill Clinton, we are not obligated to follow that law. We are required to follow just, constitutional laws. We are not required to follow laws that are wicked and unconstitutional. Daniel is an example. The king decreed that nobody could pray. That rule Daniel could not follow and he was just not to follow it even though it was the "law". If one is a clerk and they give out marriage licenses, if giving one to a gay couple goes beyond the limits of conscience, they can stand up for their beliefs and not grant the license by putting in their letter of resignation.

I am still uncertain why she should have to quit. She is free to do what she sees best. And the people are free to remove her if they disagree. If the people of her county are satisfied with the job she is doing, why should she have to leave?

What Kim Davis is doing is much more in line with what the founding fathers had in mind than what you are suggesting.

[samizdat]

One thing that I can tell you is that Dr. Jones is a man of integrity and is not afraid to bring things out that contradict the official accounts. He is wrong on a few things but to ignore him and call him a quack because of his imperfections would be akin to throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Exercise caution.

Sam, just curious... what was/is he wrong about RE 9/11?

My response has nothing to do with his 9/11 research as I think he is spot on with that research. There are other things or speculations (we all have them) where he has been wrong. The Earthquakes happening every so odd day of a sequence for one (I would have to dig up the EQ thread to find out that answer)...

I know him as a man of integrity. His imperfections aside he has done a lot of good.

[A Random Phrase]

I believe that any Mormon who cannot see the danger in upholding and supporting laws that legalize infanticide and deviant sexual behavior has been blinded by the evils of Babylon.

We are moving farther and farther away from becoming a Zion people. It is going to take a major cleansing of the Church, and this land, for any strides toward Zion to commence.

The good news is that this cleansing has been prophesied from the beginning. Christ knows exactly what is going on, and has always known what would occur preceding His Second Coming.

As someone once said, "The Book of Mormon is more prophecy than history."

3 Nephi 7 (Main points in red for the tl;dr folks) (too long; didn't read)

1 NOW behold, I will show unto you that they did not establish a king over the land; but in this same year, yea, the thirtieth year, they did destroy upon the judgment-seat, yea, did murder the chief judge of the land.

2 And the people were divided one against another; and they did separate one from another into tribes, every man according to his family and his kindred and friends; and thus they did destroy the government of the land.

3 And every tribe did appoint a chief or a leader over them; and thus they became tribes and leaders of tribes.

4 Now behold, there was no man among them save he had much family and many kindreds and friends; therefore their tribes became exceedingly great.

5 Now all this was done, and there were no wars as yet among them; and all this iniquity had come upon the people because they did yield themselves unto the power of Satan.

6 And the regulations of the government were destroyed, because of the secret combination of the friends and kindreds of those who murdered the prophets.

7 And they did cause a great contention in the land, insomuch that the more righteous part of the people had nearly all become wicked; yea, there were but few righteous men among them.

8 And thus six years had not passed away since the more part of the people had turned from their righteousness, like the dog to his vomit, or like the sow to her wallowing in the mire.

9 Now this secret combination, which had brought so great iniquity upon the people, did gather themselves together, and did place at their head a man whom they did call Jacob;

10 And they did call him their king; therefore he became a king over this wicked band; and he was one of the chiefest who had given his voice against the prophets who testified of Jesus.

11 And it came to pass that they were not so strong in number as the tribes of the people, who were united together save it were their leaders did establish their laws, every one according to his tribe; nevertheless they were enemies; notwithstanding they were not a righteous people, yet they were united in the hatred of those who had entered into a covenant to destroy the government.

12 Therefore, Jacob seeing that their enemies were more numerous than they, he being the king of the band, therefore he commanded his people that they should take their flight into the northernmost part of the land, and there build up unto themselves a kingdom, until they were joined by dissenters, (for he flattered them that there would be many dissenters) and they become sufficiently strong to contend with the tribes of the people; and they did so.

13 And so speedy was their march that it could not be impeded until they had gone forth out of the reach of the people. And thus ended the thirtieth year; and thus were the affairs of the people of Nephi.

14 And it came to pass in the thirty and first year that they were divided into tribes, every man according to his family, kindred and friends; nevertheless they had come to an agreement that they would not go to war one with another; but they were not united as to their laws, and their manner of government, for they were established according to the minds of those who were their chiefs and their leaders. But they did establish very strict laws that one tribe should not trespass against another, insomuch that in some degree they had peace in the land; nevertheless, their hearts were turned from the Lord their God, and they did stone the prophets and did cast them out from among them.

[A Random Phrase]

I find it continually disappointing that there are those out there like you who hold apostles and prophets up like television shows to be reviewed.

We are expected to review everything they say and compare it to what written scripture teaches.

No you're not. You're expected to listen to the Spirit and compare them to nothing. That's a fool's errand right there.

[A Random Phrase]

The church is intentionally going out of its way to appease the government in order to preserve its tax-exempt status - it's almost as if they are willing to do and/or say anything, no matter how questionable it is to members or contrary to Christ's teachings and will of the Lord in order to keep the church tax-exempt while existing as a corporation sole under the chains of the IRS.

This is how it appears to me. I certainly hope I am wrong, but I fear that the coming years will jolt all but the most devoted to the doctrine of "follow the current prophets and hang the scriptures; we don't need them anymore."

[Sunain]

The church is intentionally going out of its way to appease the government in order to preserve its tax-exempt status - it's almost as if they are willing to do and/or say anything, no matter how questionable it is to members or contrary to Christ's teachings and will of the Lord in order to keep the church tax-exempt while existing as a corporation sole under the chains of the IRS.

This is how it appears to me. I certainly hope I am wrong, but I fear that the coming years will jolt all but the most devoted to the doctrine of "follow the current prophets and hang the scriptures; we don't need them anymore."

No only that, there is a big movement in the United States right now to be PC (politically correct). The church and its members cannot fall into that trap as there are plenty of things that the gospel teaches that wouldn't be considered politically correct these days. It also seems to me that the church is trying to appear politically correct though.

[A Random Phrase]

I wish that were so, but Stacy, they've been doing everything in their power to protect their tax-exempt status for a LONG time - just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it never will as that is exactly what they are trying to prevent.

I don't know if there was such a thing as tax-exempt churches in the 1800s, but the Church was disenfranchised and their assets seized by the gov't. I'm sure the Church learned a huge lesson from that experience (who has the real power when the Church comes up against the State).

[A Random Phrase]

Again, you're assuming they irrationally fear something, and are acting on that fear, without any evidence.

It's true he's assuming this, but do you think what he suggested might possibly be what is happening?

Absolutely not. It is paranoia to suggest that someone is acting out of fear of something that has never happened. You might as well say that Elder Oaks did this out if fear of Martians.

But something like this DID happen. In the 1800s. A moral issue. The State demanded that the Church stop living a practice that the leaders were teaching was essential for their salvation (the leaders were also teaching that God would never let the practice stop - words to that effect).

State and Church collided over a moral issue. The State stole the Church's property. The Church wanted it back. To do that, they gave in to Big Brother, even though everyone (as far as I can tell) claimed that that would never happen.

The president of the Church, to save face, told the people, "The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty."

In essence, God will kill any president of the Church would would choose to lead the people astray and away from the oracles of God (the oracles are the revelations given through Joseph Smith as part of the restoration God intended).

Ever since then, the Church has toed the line more and more, bowing down (however subtly). The Church is very aware of who can shut them down in a heartbeat, remove their tax-exempt status and steal their property again.

[A Random Phrase]

Our Prophets and Apostles are SEERS! They SEE into the future. We aren't privy to the inspiration that they receive from the Lord. Much more going on than we have any clue.

This is what I cannot understand. They are seers (see-ers). They are supposed to see into the future. They are supposed to receive revelation. They are supposed to prophecy in the name of the Lord.

ALL of the prophets in scriptural history, from Joseph Smith back, were prolific in writing or speaking the words of the Lord to the people. They made no secret that they were seeing. And when a nation was on the brink of destruction, God ALWAYS sent a prophet to warn the people to repent or be destroyed. He didn't mince words and, because he didn't, the people usually hated him. He never spoke smooth words. He did not fear governments. He had no organized tax-free entity to protect, no billion dollar assets to lose.

Our prophets don't prophecy, are not firm about the myriad of sins we have (pride, boasting, anger, lusting for power, adoration of men, not recognizing our perilous state, etc. - all the sins that are in the Book of Mormon we are guilty of, and more), neither do they open up the scriptures to our understanding. What has gone wrong?

[A Random Phrase]

Does anyone really seriously believe the Church has changed its position on gay marriage even 1%? Oaks is speaking to a post Supreme Court reality that may suck but is reality. As citizens, we can reject gay marriage but when we are clocked in at work, we have to do our job even if that sometimes means the job stinks on occasion. If one does not like it, find a new profession.

I am totally not being contentious in this post (or in my posts above). Just so you know.

This post reminds me of the nazis. They clocked in, did their work, clocked out. It was just a job. In fact, I understand that when the trials of Nuremberg were underway, there was some disagreement among people in the world as to whether those who did the dirty work really ought to be punished. They were only carrying out orders from above. They were only doing their jobs. They had families at home. They were only employees, employed to harm and torture people, even kill them.

Now, I know that gay marriage et al is not akin to this, but the reasoning above really was the reasoning used during that regime by folks who, in normal times, would have vomited and refused rather than to carry out orders they later carried out as part of their jobs that just happened to stink.

[A Random Phrase]

No only that, there is a big movement in the United States right now to be PC (politically correct). The church and its members cannot fall into that trap as there are plenty of things that the gospel teaches that wouldn't be considered politically correct these days. It also seems to me that the church is trying to appear politically correct though.

That's true.

The Church has so much to offer. The Book of Mormon is an incredible book, for example. I hope and pray that they gain the courage to step away from that trap before it springs shut.

[CraigNewton]

Like Daniel and his companions who were elevated to top leadership in the politics of Babylon, the great kingdom of evil. Because of their influence not a word could be spoken against the God of Israel or the entire family of that person would be cut to pieces. How many of you naysayers are in politics? Are you campaigning for those who God has elevated in this campaign season? Either put-up or shut-up. The October Conference had many who told us that we should be like Daniel and his brethren. I am on the Republican Central Committee, The Christian Nevada Republican Assembly, Campaigning for Cruz, Carson and Trump. Remember, Daniel promoted Nebuchadnezzar, not because the king was righteous but Daniel was righteous.

[CraigNewton]

Remember, King Benjamin, Ammon, Captain Moroni and most others whom Mormon thought showed great courage in defending the Church for 1000 years were not Church leaders. They were political warriors. ETB stressed that it would not be leaders of the church who would save the constitution but elders like me and you and I would say there are none but me in Reno, Nevada. But there is another sister Janine Hansen with EagleForum.org http://www.eagleforum.org/topics/concon ... y-Penn.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; My blog TheAmericanInformationXchange.com so get with it people.

[Thomas]

“One generation of homosexual “marriage” would depopulate a nation, and, if sufficiently widespread, would extinguish its people. Our marriage laws should not abet national suicide.” –Dallin H. Oaks Principles to Govern. P. 19. 1984


Elder Oaks I'm a little confused here. You said pro gay marriage laws would be "national suicide" but now your hitting Kim Davis for standing up for her religious beliefs?

This is conflicting, but the views and policies of the church have evolved in step (albeit a little behind) with the cultural climate of the day -- polygamy, interracial marriage, blacks and the priesthood/temple blessings, and now homosexuals.

We as members, who sustain the prophet, believe those changes were divinely inspired/revealed -- not done because of social pressure.

Perhaps Elder Oaks is also inspired? I believe so.

So what of the previous so called PSRs who stated polygamy was here to stay, blacks will never get the priesthood and homosexuals choose their sinful behavior. I guess all the past prophets were false and the current ones are true prophets. That leaves me a little confused though because that means today's true prophet will be tomorrow's false one.

[Thomas]

Like Daniel and his companions who were elevated to top leadership in the politics of Babylon, the great kingdom of evil. Because of their influence not a word could be spoken against the God of Israel or the entire family of that person would be cut to pieces. How many of you naysayers are in politics? Are you campaigning for those who God has elevated in this campaign season? Either put-up or shut-up. The October Conference had many who told us that we should be like Daniel and his brethren. I am on the Republican Central Committee, The Christian Nevada Republican Assembly, Campaigning for Cruz, Carson and Trump. Remember, Daniel promoted Nebuchadnezzar, not because the king was righteous but Daniel was righteous.

You cant change jack squat with politics. All you can do is live righteously and try to preach the gospel. You cannot force morality. If the majority choose immortality then it is their choice not yours.

[Todd]

“One generation of homosexual “marriage” would depopulate a nation, and, if sufficiently widespread, would extinguish its people. Our marriage laws should not abet national suicide.” –Dallin H. Oaks Principles to Govern. P. 19. 1984


Elder Oaks I'm a little confused here. You said pro gay marriage laws would be "national suicide" but now your hitting Kim Davis for standing up for her religious beliefs?

This is conflicting, but the views and policies of the church have evolved in step (albeit a little behind) with the cultural climate of the day -- polygamy, interracial marriage, blacks and the priesthood/temple blessings, and now homosexuals.

We as members, who sustain the prophet, believe those changes were divinely inspired/revealed -- not done because of social pressure.

Perhaps Elder Oaks is also inspired? I believe so.

So what of the previous so called PSRs who stated polygamy was here to stay, blacks will never get the priesthood and homosexuals choose their sinful behavior. I guess all the past prophets were false and the current ones are true prophets. That leaves me a little confused though because that means today's true prophet will be tomorrow's false one.

Just so I know where you stand, Thomas, do you believe the changes that were made were inspired from God or done because of the social pressure of the times?

[MormonPatriot]

This whole thing with OAKS is making my blood boil. Has he lost his mind!!!!!

The idea that we must sit here and watch these tyrants take over our country is laughable.

George Washington is rolling over in his grave right now.

Maybe Ms. Davis is a Dem, whatever...I forgive her. God Bless her for stepping up.

I will do the same.

I am going to chalk this one up to a misunderstanding.

I know the Church is TRUE!

[Thomas]

“One generation of homosexual “marriage” would depopulate a nation, and, if sufficiently widespread, would extinguish its people. Our marriage laws should not abet national suicide.” –Dallin H. Oaks Principles to Govern. P. 19. 1984


Elder Oaks I'm a little confused here. You said pro gay marriage laws would be "national suicide" but now your hitting Kim Davis for standing up for her religious beliefs?

This is conflicting, but the views and policies of the church have evolved in step (albeit a little behind) with the cultural climate of the day -- polygamy, interracial marriage, blacks and the priesthood/temple blessings, and now homosexuals.

We as members, who sustain the prophet, believe those changes were divinely inspired/revealed -- not done because of social pressure.

Perhaps Elder Oaks is also inspired? I believe so.

So what of the previous so called PSRs who stated polygamy was here to stay, blacks will never get the priesthood and homosexuals choose their sinful behavior. I guess all the past prophets were false and the current ones are true prophets. That leaves me a little confused though because that means today's true prophet will be tomorrow's false one.

Just so I know where you stand, Thomas, do you believe the changes that were made were inspired from God or done because of the social pressure of the times?

My position on past leaders is exactly the same as the church's position, which is they acted and spoke without inspiration from God. That leaves me to wonder how it is I am supposed to assume all the actions and words of current leaders are inspired of God.

[Todd]

My position on past leaders is exactly the same as the church's position, which is they acted and spoke without inspiration from God. That leaves me to wonder how it is I am supposed to assume all the actions and words of current leaders are inspired of God.

Thank you for stating where you stand. Since I believe our current and past prophets are inspired by God we really don't have a common ground to discuss this issue. Best of luck with your journey.