LDS Freedom Forum

American society has become anti-male. Men are sensing the backlash and are consciously and unconsciously going "on strike." They are dropping out of college, leaving the workforce and avoiding marriage and fatherhood at alarming rates. The trend is so pronounced that a number of books have been written about this "man-child" phenomenon, concluding that men have taken a vacation from responsibility simply because they can. But why should men participate in a system that seems to be increasingly stacked against them?

As Men on Strike demonstrates, men aren't dropping out because they are stuck in arrested development. They are instead acting rationally in response to the lack of incentives society offers them to be responsible fathers, husbands and providers. In addition, men are going on strike, either consciously or unconsciously, because they do not want to be injured by the myriad of laws, attitudes and hostility against them for the crime of happening to be male in the twenty-first century. Men are starting to fight back against the backlash. Men on Strike explains their battle cry.

I plan on reading the book. Seems like an interesting page turner. That said, is it basically a bunch of men saying, "Stop picking on me. I'm gonna take my ball and go home"?

Real women, in my experience, want their men to be men. This doesn't mean some feminized limp wristed PC type that doesn't know how to take responsibility or show some sense of direction in his life, but someone who isn't afraid to lead, isn't afraid to make changes in his life, and isn't afraid to do "manly things". That's one of the things my wife loved about me.

Perhaps I'm wrong on that point. Any ladies care to chime in?

You are right, at least as far as I'm concerned - however, I am very likely in the minority on this. From what my college age kids tell me (and their friends of both sexes, and their friend's moms, etc.), a great portion of male BYU students now act "gay" - they're not gay, but they have found that a great portion of the female BYU students prefer the males as "limp-wristed PC types" - so the males oblige by acting the part, and they then do indeed receive more attention from the females. Makes me shake my head in a combination of disbelief and disgust.

I have to believe most women who are secure in their femininity would much prefer men to be men (as you describe above, iWrite). At least this one does.

This is because young adults perceive marriage differently than previous generations in the following ways:

• Intimacy can be found outside of marriage and is appropriate outside of marriage.
• Divorce rates send signals marriage is risky (emotionally and financially).
• Marriage as a social or religious expression is being made optional to youth.

Oh I've read a lot about this, I mean I'm 26 and never seriously dated (I've tried but it's a system I can't win in, why play a game you can't ever win?).
So I stopped. Rather spend my money on myself then have it sucked away by someone who never cared for me in the first place.

Seems like so many things are really getting messed up!
Men can be men if they chose to and women can be women if they chose to. Apparently too many people are acting in accordance to those around them and it's spiraling down.

It's true women do want a man who is capable of being compassionate and sensitive especially with her and their children. Other than that women want a man who can be a man and protect and guide and lead and help and provide to a reasonable degree and let her be a woman.

At least that's how I understand it but I have been out of the dating scene for 10 years. So glad to be married, it seems like it's getting harder to based on what people say here.

Melissa wrote:Seems like so many things are really getting messed up!
Men can be men if they chose to and women can be women if they chose to. Apparently too many people are acting in accordance to those around them and it's spiraling down.

It's true women do want a man who is capable of being compassionate and sensitive especially with her and their children. Other than that women want a man who can be a man and protect and guide and lead and help and provide to a reasonable degree and let her be a woman.

At least that's how I understand it but I have been out of the dating scene for 10 years. So glad to be married, it seems like it's getting harder to based on what people say here.

How does someone be a total alpha and yet have beta behaviour, those two things don't really gel, people often have very unrealistic expectations, I've met these people.
I've known them for years and they were alone when I met them and they are alone now.
They expect perfection and perfection doesn't exist, people nowadays want everything, expect everything and feel anything less is settling.
I am doomed, I feel doomed, got little to offer. Kindness is poison out there.
I got no alpha skills.
The only winning move is not to play.

A REAL man IS compassionate and sensitive with his wife and children. ;) The most attractive men I've ever seen, and the men I respect the most, are those who are doing such things - properly taking care of their families in kindness.

EmmaLee wrote:A REAL man IS compassionate and sensitive with his wife and children. ;) The most attractive men I've ever seen, and the men I respect the most, are those who are doing such things - properly taking care of their families in kindness.

Well then what do you feel makes a real man, I'm genuinely curious.

zionminded wrote:This is because young adults perceive marriage differently than previous generations in the following ways:

• Intimacy can be found outside of marriage and is appropriate outside of marriage.
• Divorce rates send signals marriage is risky (emotionally and financially).
• Marriage as a social or religious expression is being made optional to youth.

And since the Church has been in the world and of it (ever notice how many Disney movies and memes are referenced on LDS blogs?) our youth and young adults are as part of the consumer matrix as anyone else. We need to teach that we are a separate people!

Sirocco wrote:

EmmaLee wrote:A REAL man IS compassionate and sensitive with his wife and children. ;) The most attractive men I've ever seen, and the men I respect the most, are those who are doing such things - properly taking care of their families in kindness.

Well then what do you feel makes a real man, I'm genuinely curious.

I was replying to Melissa's post. You and I must have posted at the same time. A real man, in my opinion, in addition to what I've already said in this thread (and what iWriteStuff has said, as well) is someone who provides for and protects his family. Someone who is comfortable being a man and who isn't confused about what his roll should be or how he should act. Someone who understands his purpose in the grand scheme of things and then seeks to do it to the best of his ability. Someone like Christ.

EmmaLee wrote:

Sirocco wrote:

EmmaLee wrote:A REAL man IS compassionate and sensitive with his wife and children. ;) The most attractive men I've ever seen, and the men I respect the most, are those who are doing such things - properly taking care of their families in kindness.

Well then what do you feel makes a real man, I'm genuinely curious.

I was replying to Melissa's post. You and I must have posted at the same time. A real man, in my opinion, in addition to what I've already said in this thread (and what iWriteStuff has said, as well) is someone who provides for and protects his family. Someone who is comfortable being a man and who isn't confused about what his roll should be or how he should act. Someone who understands his purpose in the grand scheme of things and then seeks to do it to the best of his ability. Someone like Christ.

Interesting, interesting.

Ever notice how many TV shows (especially reality shows that are aimed at women) feature effeminate males? Young people would be better off watching Game of Thrones, Walking Dead and other shows that feature true manly characters. I mean it, letting your children watch fashion shows and situation comedies and the like and then wondering why girls turn into useless princess wanna-bees and boys go recluse into watching porn and gaming rather than forming relationships?

Fiannan wrote:Ever notice how many TV shows (especially reality shows that are aimed at women) feature effeminate males? Young people would be better off watching Game of Thrones, Walking Dead and other shows that feature true manly characters. I mean it, letting your children watch fashion shows and situation comedies and the like and then wondering why girls turn into useless princess wanna-bees and boys go recluse into watching porn and gaming rather than forming relationships?

games cost less and I can win :))
I'm like really good at Starcraft you guys...

Sirocco wrote:

Fiannan wrote:Ever notice how many TV shows (especially reality shows that are aimed at women) feature effeminate males? Young people would be better off watching Game of Thrones, Walking Dead and other shows that feature true manly characters. I mean it, letting your children watch fashion shows and situation comedies and the like and then wondering why girls turn into useless princess wanna-bees and boys go recluse into watching porn and gaming rather than forming relationships?

games cost less and I can win :))
I'm like really good at Starcraft you guys...

Sirocco - I have the cure for your loneliness, so long as you like Korean women:

As mentioned, many possible reasons...

-Feminist movement
-Government redefining marriage so it's less meaningful
-High divorce rates scare them
-Addiction - especially video games
-Parents being too easy on them and not demanding response-ability
-Online socializing taking the place of in-person
-Pickiness - for men, porn causes unrealistic expectations; for women it's Disney
-Lack of perserverence - unrealistic expectation that love should always be passionate dopamine high
-Seeking after selfish pursuits - someone to worship/make them feel good

iWriteStuff wrote:

Sirocco wrote:

Fiannan wrote:Ever notice how many TV shows (especially reality shows that are aimed at women) feature effeminate males? Young people would be better off watching Game of Thrones, Walking Dead and other shows that feature true manly characters. I mean it, letting your children watch fashion shows and situation comedies and the like and then wondering why girls turn into useless princess wanna-bees and boys go recluse into watching porn and gaming rather than forming relationships?

games cost less and I can win :))
I'm like really good at Starcraft you guys...

Sirocco - I have the cure for your loneliness, so long as you like Korean women:

I do lol

Thinker wrote:As mentioned, many possible reasons...

-Feminist movement
-Government redefining marriage so it's less meaningful
-High divorce rates scare them
-Addiction - especially video games
-Parents being too easy on them and not demanding response-ability
-Online socializing taking the place of in-person
-Pickiness - for men, porn causes unrealistic expectations; for women it's Disney
-Lack of perserverence - unrealistic expectation that love should always be passionate dopamine high
-Seeking after selfish pursuits - someone to worship/make them feel good

I donno what more mine could want, I live on my own, don't ask them for money lol
plus come on, starcraft!

Most guys I know consider marriage too risky. Not worth it.

Sirocco wrote:

Thinker wrote:As mentioned, many possible reasons...

-Feminist movement
-Government redefining marriage so it's less meaningful
-High divorce rates scare them
-Addiction - especially video games
-Parents being too easy on them and not demanding response-ability
-Online socializing taking the place of in-person
-Pickiness - for men, porn causes unrealistic expectations; for women it's Disney
-Lack of perserverence - unrealistic expectation that love should always be passionate dopamine high
-Seeking after selfish pursuits - someone to worship/make them feel good

I donno what more mine could want, I live on my own, don't ask them for money lol
plus come on, starcraft!

Sirroco,
Maybe I'm going out on a flimsy limb, but my guess your biggest obstacles are
-Lack of perserverence - don't give up so easily! Each miss is a way to get you closer to a hit (so to speak) And along with that is positivity/hope... and
-Substituting online socializing for in person socializing.

Yeah you'd be right there.
I mean I have no idea where people meet other people, apart from all the weird hobbies but the women there seem none to interested in the men.

Todd wrote:Most guys I know consider marriage too risky. Not worth it.

I think this is the biggest thing, combined with the complete acceptance of sex outside of marriage.


No fault divorce and the anti-male divorce courts are a deterrent. Yet many many still chose to get married because sex was not readily available outside of it. Now that sex is readily available (as well as pornography) outside of marriage, the risks outweigh any perceived benefit.

Men aren't getting married, because the supply of women worth marrying (for them) isn't very big. And it's dwindling.

That's exactly the message about wages being so low (like in Utah). The oft repeated, "The markets will determine the price," is just as relevant here.

Men who opt out of marriage (church members or not) are obviously under the impression that the value they have to offer isn't met with commensurate "pay." (whatever form it takes). All the time in church, I hear the stupid lie about how much better women are than men. How a mother's love is better, than say, a father's. How they are tender and kind, but men aren't. How, "women could get everything done, and in half the time, ahhahaaha."

It's stupid, deceitful, and pandering. Either men and women are of equal worth, or they are not. I believe they are. I'm sick of hearing how righteous, wonderful and loving women are, while simultaneously being told how brutish, stupid and sinful men are. They are both equally capable of good, and evil.

Men are not more sinful than women, and women aren't more loving than men. Period. They are both just flawed human beings, capable of rising to their circumstances, if they choose. Your genitals don't make you righteous. End of story.

However, manyt women, in our society today, have utilized government to be able to rip off men at every turn. I can't say if it's "most women," but it's a big enough pool to spoil the pot, apparently. Whether in divorce proceedings (almost universally brought by women, mind you), custody battles (almost universally awarded to women, mind you), etc. I know of at least a few cases, some personal, some national, in which a man who wasn't the father of a child (and proven by DNA testing), was forced to pay child support. Some women pick names of men out of a phonebook, to give to the courts (to be listed as the father, a requirement in some states, where they demand to know a father before receiving publicly funded benefits), and then the unknowing, random man is hounded by child support collections to pay for a child that isn't his (and the woman almost NEVER goes to jail for it).

The VAST majority of divorces are brought by women (I think it's like 80% of divorces). The VAST majority of domestic violence is committed by women (60%+), and sexual assault committed by women is on the rise. And if men got married, they could have anything they build or work for taken away, at one lying phone call. I have dozens of examples, but will tell one story, I know of (I personally knew the people, albeit not very well).

I think I mentioned it before on the forum, but a kid I once supervised (I knew his family, somewhat) told me of his brother's troubles. His brother's wife wanted a divorce, and wanted the kids, so she said that he had done something to them (I don't remember what, either violent, or sexual, sorry I can't remember the exact details of the woman's flagrant lie), but she had him reported to the police (this was either in Idaho, Utah or Arizona, and these were LDS church members). In any event, she patently lied, got a temporary restraining order, got the kids, and by the time the police had investigated and found that she was an absolute liar, she had run off to another state. When he wished to press charges, they told him they wouldn't, because it MIGHT keep other women/children from coming forward with "real" issues. Even though making a false report is a felony in many jurisdictions. In the meantime, he was removed from his home, his house was ransacked (she cleaned it out of everything she wanted), and his kids taken, and they wouldn't even charge her. I have dozens more examples, of just people I know. I know another man who was beaten so badly by his wife, he lost hearing in his ear because she ruptured his eardrum (this was in Nevada), but the police wouldn't press charges, because they didn't think a jury would convict a woman.

Men and women have equal value, but men have been shafted in marriage for decades. You could argue that women had been before that, but just because the pendulum swings both ways, doesn't mean that it's right. Now many men don't care to marry anymore. They have no incentive. Literally none. That's largely true, even in the church. Tremendous pressure is placed on men, and women are given a free pass. It's absolutely true. In years of church educational classes, and years of Sunday school, I have heard thousands of times, how great women are, and how lowly and unworthy men are to marry them. Absolute garbage. They are two oxen in a team. There's no demand for men to marry, because the supply of favorable women has dried up. Women whine about how men play video games, are lazy, etc., and yet they think they they're worth marrying. New flash, just like supply and demand, if you're worth marrying (that is to say, have a desirable trait set, and I don't mean looks), people will hound you to try and marry you.

So many LDS women are unrealistic in all their expectations. Many want a man to be a powerless figurehead. HE can't have a voice, he can't have normal emotions (like anger), he can't have the decorations he wants, or doesn't want, he has to work so she is able to work or not work (her choice! Not his), and he can't want frequent sex. I know so, so many Mormon men, whose wives have been taught sex is bad, and they rarely ever have sex. It's on tons and tons of KSL new article comment threads, too. The man is expected to work, come home and care for the kids, have no sex drive, have no personal time, and be fully supportive of everything his wife does. And he's expected to do all that, and risk losing everything (or at least a substantial portion, and probably his home) the second she isn't happy, because remember ALMOST ALL DIVORCES ARE BROUGHT BY WOMEN.

My advice to young women who whine about not finding good men is this: Men want to protect their cave, and their mates IN the cave. If you're not willing to remain in the cave, to make the cave inviting, and to enjoy life in the cave, don't be surprised that many men won't want you. It's a fact. If you want to go out and work, and be surrounded by other powerful men (in a career setting), don't be surprised that you husband doesn't want to enable that. When you put on a pretty face to go please other men (and women), and come home and wipe it all off, and say you're too tired for intimacy, then you're not going to find the mate you probably want. I realize women can work, and do many other things outside the home. That is their choice, but with all choices come consequences.

Men are told they MUST provide and protect their wives, not just the basics, but things they need, like accent pillows and scrapbook supplies. Ok, fine. Now women are also to nurture their husbands, and see to his needs and his every comfort. Many women have no problem with the men providing for them, but then they expend energy pleasing other people, and are shocked that their husbands turn to other sexual outlets, after being neglected by their wives.

Men are territorial (I'm a behavioralist), if women refuse to stay in the man's territory, they should expect that he'll find a new mate who will be willing to. Men are giving up on marriage, because they receive little to nothing in exchange for total susceptibility, and total responsibility, all while being degraded continually.

I once was visiting my friends house in Provo, and was helping prepare dinner. I was drying lettuce, and used a hanging dish towel. My friend yelped, and said, "Where did you get that towel!?" I said, "It was hanging on the oven." He said, "Oh no those are Katie's (his wife) good towels, now we're both going to get in trouble." She came in, she was angry, she glared at him, and basically told him off, through gritted teeth. I said, "Sorry," and she said, "It's not your fault, HE (pointing at her husband) should have known better than to let you use them." (In defense of Katie, her husband was also unreasonable on some things, and both were relatively nice people, but they did divorce).

If a man has to be frightened about using the wrong dish towel (I have since learned from maybe 2/3s of the LDS women I have told this story to, that they would be just as angry, by the way), then his wife is not worthy of being married. Any woman who treats her husband with contempt over decor is has big issues. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

I know many single men, and they have expressed exactly why they are NOT getting married. There's no reason to open themselves up to risk in a system that is ABSOLUTELY stacked against them. They receive too little in exchange, there's no devotion at all from most women (At least not the 80+% who are brining the divorces that end many/most marriages). Men are naturally inclined to protect what they have in their caves more than to find a new cave. The problem is systemic, but men absolutely won't risk the abuse most face through their wife's violence, potential false accusations and highly probable divorce, because they can live as bachelors for less than half the price, and with none of the nagging.

Serragon wrote:

Todd wrote:Most guys I know consider marriage too risky. Not worth it.

I think this is the biggest thing, combined with the complete acceptance of sex outside of marriage.

No fault divorce and the anti-male divorce courts are a deterrent. Yet many many still chose to get married because sex was not readily available outside of it. Now that sex is readily available (as well as pornography) outside of marriage, the risks outweigh any perceived benefit.

Women commit the most domestic violence. Women file for almost all divorces. Women in many states (like Utah), get virtually everything in divorce. I know that on virtually every KSL article that I've read discussing sex problems in marriage, many commenters talk about themselves, or couples they know that almost never have sex, and primarily, the wife acts like the man is a pig if he's not satisfied with one every several weeks of sex (in fairness a few women, also mention it, in any event, there's a sexual dysfunction).

I know it's hip and trendy to blame lots of things on pornography, but the fact of the matter is that while men (and women), may turn to pornography, they do so, because it's better than the real thing (for them). Either it's easier than finding a mate, or easier than dealing with a mate, or more satisfying than with a mate. In any of those cases, the problem is that their sex life with their partner is bad). I have found that most of the sex issues stem from unreasonably low sex-drive spouses, or a lack of communication.

Sadly, many people are attracted to people they have no idea how to communicate with, and thus, they have no real groundwork for romantic relationships.(For example introverted thinkers should NEVER marry extroverted thinkers, and Introverted feelers should NEVER marry extroverted feelers. It's always going to be a daily, if not hourly communication fight, but for some reason, they're almost always attracted to the opposite, and it almost always works out badly, and it ALWAYS is a strain and a struggle on both parties).

But your post's point echos mine. Men don't receive enough in exchange for the price they pay, or they would be lining up for marriage (supply and demand, demand vs. price!).

Porn is free, marriage could and probably would ruin me. And I am not a gambling man.