LDS Freedom Forum

iWriteStuff wrote:

Fiannan wrote:

JohnnyL wrote:Where can you have a decent job and a decent inexpensive house? Times have changed a lot. Now even run-down houses cost more than a nice house used to. If you want to fix it up, you need much more money (have you checked the price of wood lately??), permits, contractors, etc. when you used to be able to do it with much less.

We've lived in poor housing, and we're living there now--in general, you're getting many more problems from neighbors. Which might not be too bad, but then your children are getting all kinds of problems in school, because you're living in a bad school district, too. Maybe some can handle it. But who wants to try, with their children? It makes it not worth living there, in general. Especially if you're one of those socially awkward guys looking to get married and have children.

Darwin said that adaptation is the key to success.

Kinda like Rocky Balboa "adapted" himself into a punching bag, eh?

JK, of course. My point being you can't step into the ring without getting hit a few times. But it's worth it.

How? (to you)

Sirocco wrote:

iWriteStuff wrote:

Fiannan wrote:

JohnnyL wrote:Where can you have a decent job and a decent inexpensive house? Times have changed a lot. Now even run-down houses cost more than a nice house used to. If you want to fix it up, you need much more money (have you checked the price of wood lately??), permits, contractors, etc. when you used to be able to do it with much less.

We've lived in poor housing, and we're living there now--in general, you're getting many more problems from neighbors. Which might not be too bad, but then your children are getting all kinds of problems in school, because you're living in a bad school district, too. Maybe some can handle it. But who wants to try, with their children? It makes it not worth living there, in general. Especially if you're one of those socially awkward guys looking to get married and have children.

Darwin said that adaptation is the key to success.

Kinda like Rocky Balboa "adapted" himself into a punching bag, eh?

JK, of course. My point being you can't step into the ring without getting hit a few times. But it's worth it.

How?

My wife is my best friend. Every good thing I have in life I can attribute to her positive influence. And I absolutely live for my kids. They bring more joy and meaning to my life than I ever thought was possible back in my bachelor days, or even in my days of just being married without kids.

Wouldn't trade the experience for anything. And even if my wife ripped my heart out and ate it for breakfast, I'd still do it again. In fact, I already have once (been divorced - got fleeced - came right back at it again, but a bit wiser than before).

I dunno, there are some things you can't quantify in life. That's difficult even for an accountant. Suffice it to say that every sacrifice is worth it, and every blessing worth having requires you to pay a price. If you know the value of the blessing, you pay the price. If you don't, or if you doubt that it's worth it, then likely you sit on the sidelines.

Well for better or worse I am on the sidelines, it is nice to see some who have success, but just because some get success makes it no guarantee or even a good chance.
I dislike taking chances or risks in things, I have a great desire of control of my life which in many ways, most ways I do.
Obviously there is some variables but I have grown such a need for this that I couldn't imagine how I could function any other way.

Sirocco wrote:Well for better or worse I am on the sidelines, it is nice to see some who have success, but just because some get success makes it no guarantee or even a good chance.
I dislike taking chances or risks in things, I have a great desire of control of my life which in many ways, most ways I do.
Obviously there is some variables but I have grown such a need for this that I couldn't imagine how I could function any other way.

Trust me, I know what you mean. My brother is beholden to no one, buys what he wants, does what he wants... In one way he's free, in another way he's painfully lonely. I don't think the toys he's been able to purchase with his extra money have really filled the hole, so to speak. I sometimes envy the toys until I realize they don't hug you back.

I hope you have a family some day, Sirocco. Till then, hope you can trust that it's worth it!

iWriteStuff wrote:

Sirocco wrote:Well for better or worse I am on the sidelines, it is nice to see some who have success, but just because some get success makes it no guarantee or even a good chance.
I dislike taking chances or risks in things, I have a great desire of control of my life which in many ways, most ways I do.
Obviously there is some variables but I have grown such a need for this that I couldn't imagine how I could function any other way.

Trust me, I know what you mean. My brother is beholden to no one, buys what he wants, does what he wants... In one way he's free, in another way he's painfully lonely. I don't think the toys he's been able to purchase with his extra money have really filled the hole, so to speak. I sometimes envy the toys until I realize they don't hug you back.

I hope you have a family some day, Sirocco. Till then, hope you can trust that it's worth it!

True but to some it's all life offers.

iWriteStuff wrote:Sooooo, back to the original topic.... Anyone know a male who prefers video games and porn to real women and real life? If so, what pushed them to that decision?

Unfortunately, the church seems to be pushing the idea that 'video games are bad'. I wouldn't say I'm a gamer at all but I do play a few games and actually with a lot of church members from around the world. You don't get any trash talk, the gaming is civil and fun. I really don't like that the church downplays gaming. Don't see them chastising members for playing basketball or football, or professional members playing sports on Sunday's anymore. Some people get addicted to video games true, but that's like anything else that people get addicted to. Yes, there are some bad games and members should avoid them, but gaming is no different than TV or movies as an entertainment media. I think its actually better. I hate how members now automatically link it as a bad thing and group it in with drugs and porn.

"Women age 18 or older represent a significantly greater portion of the game-playing population (33%) than boys age 18 or younger (15%)"

TOP REASONS PARENTS PLAY GAMES WITH THEIR KIDS:
➊ It’s fun for the entire family: 85%
➋ Because they’re asked to: 75%
➌ It’s a good opportunity to socialize with their child: 75%
➍ It’s a good opportunity to monitor game content: 58%
➎ They enjoy playing video games as much as their child does: 54%

http://www.theesa.com/wp-content/upload ... s-2015.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I need to get back to playing video games, apparently that's where all the women are these days!
Porn on the other hand is destructive in all its implementations including in video games which has now become a bigger thing.

Sirocco wrote:

Jezebel wrote:
Why?! The mountain is my view now.
Climbing a real mountain would be easier, at least if I get hurt or die, it was nothing personal.
Life is hard, life has already been hard enough for me, unhappy and all that.
I couldn't give up what little joy I have to be miserable forever, what blessing is that?
Why don't I get to be happy in a marriage?

Um, you are the one who has to answer those questions yourself. Happiness isn't dependent upon your circumstances. Good circumstances can help, but those who are truly happy are happy because they have learned to by happy through the crap life throws at them. If getting married means trading a little joy for a lot of misery, then don't get married. But if you have learned to conquer life's challenges, then marriage will certainly throw enough of them your way to keep you occupied.

I still don't see a point, the happier I get in life the more weary I become of things like marriage.
If I conquer many of life's, many of my challenges, why would I willingly just invite more?
After spending so long to overcome the ones I had...

I don't know. Why do people keep climbing mountains?

Jezebel wrote:

Sirocco wrote:

Jezebel wrote:
Why?! The mountain is my view now.
Climbing a real mountain would be easier, at least if I get hurt or die, it was nothing personal.
Life is hard, life has already been hard enough for me, unhappy and all that.
I couldn't give up what little joy I have to be miserable forever, what blessing is that?
Why don't I get to be happy in a marriage?

Um, you are the one who has to answer those questions yourself. Happiness isn't dependent upon your circumstances. Good circumstances can help, but those who are truly happy are happy because they have learned to by happy through the crap life throws at them. If getting married means trading a little joy for a lot of misery, then don't get married. But if you have learned to conquer life's challenges, then marriage will certainly throw enough of them your way to keep you occupied.

I still don't see a point, the happier I get in life the more weary I become of things like marriage.
If I conquer many of life's, many of my challenges, why would I willingly just invite more?
After spending so long to overcome the ones I had...

I don't know. Why do people keep climbing mountains?

Thrills, bragging rights, the challenge- over coming a challenge.
Not exactly things marriage is about...

Thinker wrote:I don't believe people should marry within economic status - only maybe spiritual (character/integrity) status.

That's true, IF, and that's a HUGE if, the level of spirit/character/integrity is at or near superb levels. One cannot marry out of their general classes without bringing something of equal value to the relationship unless both people are completely and truly living Christlike lives. Our human nature ensures this.

We can do without more - we don't need a fancy house and expensive cars.

That's a very good point, and for some it's an easy thing to say. However, living in Utah I've seen that's often not the case. It's true in other places at somewhat increasing levels, but I've seen it in Utah for decades. I moved here in the mid 80s. After a few years of marriage, I mentioned to my wife that I noticed something different about the cars when we'd drive home to Colorado to visit my family. Drive down a neighborhood road on Loveland or Arvada in CO and you'd see cars from the 60s, 70s, and 80s. I could have sworn that Lexus, Honda, and Infinity were the only car dealers selling cars in Utah, other than the Californication plants moving in who brought their BMWs and Benz's. In our married college ward, my 1970 Ford pickup was by far the oldest vehicle in the ward.

Things have not gotten much better with time.

Sirocco wrote:Women date up, never down or on their own level.

Not true (at least not entirely.) You're talking about gold-diggers, and there you're right. However, in many ways my wife married down. I have a couple of real strengths I bring, but she's better than I am on most levels other than beating people up and finding my way into sin.

skmo wrote:

Sirocco wrote:Women date up, never down or on their own level.

Not true (at least not entirely.) You're talking about gold-diggers, and there you're right. However, in many ways my wife married down. I have a couple of real strengths I bring, but she's better than I am on most levels other than beating people up and finding my way into sin.

what do you mean by the last part?

iWriteStuff wrote:Trust me, I know what you mean. My brother is beholden to no one, buys what he wants, does what he wants... In one way he's free, in another way he's painfully lonely. I don't think the toys he's been able to purchase with his extra money have really filled the hole, so to speak.

And God knew this:

And I, the Lord God, said unto mine Only Begotten, that it was not good that the man should be alone; wherefore, I will make an help meet for him.
- Moses 3:18

Sirocco wrote:

Jezebel wrote:I don't know. Why do people keep climbing mountains?

Thrills, bragging rights, the challenge- over coming a challenge.
Not exactly things marriage is about...

True, marriage shouldn't be about bragging rights, but I'm okay with the other things being a part of marriage. The biggest thrill I've had in my life comes from my dating days, from the courtship.

I'd say that climbing a mountain isn't so much the challenge of it as the experience of it. Some do specifically choose a difficult mountain to add more thrills, but people generally choose one that will be within their ability so they can enjoy the experience. The same is true with marriage. We need to find one that will be challenging but still can be mastered. I'm not saying we men need to master our women, I'm saying as a species we need to choose mates we can make a masterful marriage with. Common ground helps a LOT. The Apostles are generally correct: Choose someone within your same bounds, as near as you can. If you're a particle physicist, don't choose a beauty queen or body builder with the IQ of a gnat. If you're from a home where your British import nanny changed your Vera Wang diapers while mommy waited on the sidelines, don't marry someone who needed 5 scholarships and a Pell grant to get into community college.

There are exceptions to that, of course, but marriage brings enough challenges on its own. No need to add more.

Sirocco wrote:

skmo wrote:

Sirocco wrote:Women date up, never down or on their own level.

Not true (at least not entirely.) You're talking about gold-diggers, and there you're right. However, in many ways my wife married down. I have a couple of real strengths I bring, but she's better than I am on most levels other than beating people up and finding my way into sin.

what do you mean by the last part?

My wife is closer to the Spirit than I am, though my painful life lessons are helping me grow there. She's more intelligent than I am, having HS, University, and grad school honors in all her degrees (including a 4.0 all the way through her Master's degree.) She's more loving and trusting than I am, she's more kind and forgiving than I will ever hope to be in this life. She comes from a very close-knit family who still gathers every chance they can to enjoy each others' company (I am conspicuously absent from these functions because they pissed me off one time to many - not an easy thing to do.) She's responsible, practical, and well-principled.

Like I said, I'm better than she is at beating people up (she's never done that) and I fall into sin much more easily than she does. Both of those were meant more as a joke, being more sinful than beneficial, so they're actually more reasons my wife is better than I am.

As for strengths, when we met I was full of life, zest, fun, positive energy and drive. I'm exceedingly charming and I can make myself extremely personable when I wish. I have a very strong seed of faith inside me that seemingly cannot be broken, but it's narrow in its reach to direct me to make correct choices. I have absolute faith in God's love for me and His Grace for my failures but I have shown repeatedly an inability to make wise choices until the bad choices come crashing down on me. My love of life and my positive attitude had its throat slit, it's deader than Kenny on South Park. It's not uncommon for one of my first thoughts in the morning to be "Damn, I woke up again." I refuse to roll over and quit, so I'll try to keep going and making more of myself and make the world a better place, but I don't believe I'll succeed much on either front.

My wife lived through some of the same problems I did, but on the other side of them. She has emerged a better person, stronger, and more in control of who she is. I emerged broken, bitter, hoping for a quick and merciful death as soon as possible to go nicely along with a newfound hatred of her family, which really disappoints me, because it was them who helped me see some of the things I'd hoped were true about family (turns out I was right, "family" means nothing more or less than you want it to - and to me it means a pile of crappy people forced to come together to pretend they like each other.)

All this, and my wife still loves me. I'd say that makes her better than me.

skmo wrote:

Sirocco wrote:

Jezebel wrote:I don't know. Why do people keep climbing mountains?

Thrills, bragging rights, the challenge- over coming a challenge.
Not exactly things marriage is about...

True, marriage shouldn't be about bragging rights, but I'm okay with the other things being a part of marriage. The biggest thrill I've had in my life comes from my dating days, from the courtship.

I'd say that climbing a mountain isn't so much the challenge of it as the experience of it. Some do specifically choose a difficult mountain to add more thrills, but people generally choose one that will be within their ability so they can enjoy the experience. The same is true with marriage. We need to find one that will be challenging but still can be mastered. I'm not saying we men need to master our women, I'm saying as a species we need to choose mates we can make a masterful marriage with. Common ground helps a LOT. The Apostles are generally correct: Choose someone within your same bounds, as near as you can. If you're a particle physicist, don't choose a beauty queen or body builder with the IQ of a gnat. If you're from a home where your British import nanny changed your Vera Wang diapers while mommy waited on the sidelines, don't marry someone who needed 5 scholarships and a Pell grant to get into community college.

There are exceptions to that, of course, but marriage brings enough challenges on its own. No need to add more.

I hate dating, I'm awful at it, it's never any fun and it obviously has never gone anywhere.
Anyone I like hates me.
People around me who share my bizarre hobbies and interests don't like me, they want more.
That's why I stopped, there is no one.
I tried, and failed. It got harder and less fun as time went on.
Despite being alone, there's no remedy for that, my type want normal guys, normal people want normal guys. I am left out.
I grew up to be bitter and angry but there ain't no one to help me down that road, and most days I want to do nothing but sleep.

skmo wrote:

Sirocco wrote:Women date up, never down or on their own level.

Not true (at least not entirely.) You're talking about gold-diggers, and there you're right. However, in many ways my wife married down. I have a couple of real strengths I bring, but she's better than I am on most levels other than beating people up and finding my way into sin.

You're definitely a lucky guy because these days its impossible to find women in the church that will even date guys that they think are below them, that is when they decide too look up from their cell phone to even talk and pay attention. I've seen it with others and I've had it happen to me a couple times. It also doesn't help that the amount of active members in the dating poll outside of Utah is pretty slim.

Thinker wrote:I'm going to say something you may consider bold, but I hope you take it well.
If you really want to get married - you can - the only thing that's holding you back, is your high expectations nobody's been able to meet.
I'm not suggesting you lower important standards and values - just be flexible and realize that we all have imperfections.
There is a small degree of compatibility - and attraction - but ultimately, the passion fades and it's more about companionship - which is about how well you can be a good husband, and how well she can be a good wife.

I don't think I have very high expectations and I think I'm quite flexible. I live a pretty humble life as it is. A temple worthy member of the church, intelligent, spiritual, not after worldly pursuits, knows the correct doctrine of the church, caring and loving. That's basically what I look for in a spouse but its harder these day's than it sounds.

Sunain wrote:

skmo wrote:

Sirocco wrote:Women date up, never down or on their own level.

Not true (at least not entirely.) You're talking about gold-diggers, and there you're right. However, in many ways my wife married down. I have a couple of real strengths I bring, but she's better than I am on most levels other than beating people up and finding my way into sin.

You're definitely a lucky guy because these days its impossible to find women in the church that will even date guys that they think are below them, that is when they decide too look up from their cell phone to even talk and pay attention. I've seen it with others and I've had it happen to me a couple times. It also doesn't help that the amount of active members in the dating poll outside of Utah is pretty slim.

I have a bunch of girl(friends) that are incredibly picky about who they'll date. Most guys I present to them , they won't consider. They have all kinds of worldly conditions. Height, some of them refuse to date a guy who doesn't go to the gym every day. If he is even a little chubby they won't consider him. Incredibly picky. It's very sad.

Stahura wrote:

Sunain wrote:

skmo wrote:

Sirocco wrote:Women date up, never down or on their own level.

Not true (at least not entirely.) You're talking about gold-diggers, and there you're right. However, in many ways my wife married down. I have a couple of real strengths I bring, but she's better than I am on most levels other than beating people up and finding my way into sin.

You're definitely a lucky guy because these days its impossible to find women in the church that will even date guys that they think are below them, that is when they decide too look up from their cell phone to even talk and pay attention. I've seen it with others and I've had it happen to me a couple times. It also doesn't help that the amount of active members in the dating poll outside of Utah is pretty slim.

I have a bunch of girl(friends) that are incredibly picky about who they'll date. Most guys I present to them , they won't consider. They have all kinds of worldly conditions. Height, some of them refuse to date a guy who doesn't go to the gym every day. If he is even a little chubby they won't consider him. Incredibly picky. It's very sad.

I know women like that too, they've been single the entire time I've known them (5+ years in some cases) and I am gonna assume they'll be single for a long while.

I have not read this thread, but want to give you my two cents.

Men today do not marry because:

1) They don't have to. They get sex very easily without having to marry to get it. This started with the invention of birth control.
2) Some like men.
3) Porn and masturbation satisfy them sexually, feeling their need for intimacy (at least they think so) - this implies to LDS men that are not to fornicate, so they justify porn/masturbation.
4) Men fear failure. So they look at relationships logically and see their chances are 50/50, and determine it is safer to stay single, and may feel a need to protect their careers and incomes.
5) And there are some men that really do want to get married, work very hard at finding their mate, but at present has alluded them, and is their cross to bear. And these men should not be judged by the rest of us.
6) Some came from dysfunctional and painful, broken homes and actually may have PTSD, so when trying to date and court a woman, she may unknowingly trigger his pain, and he may run from her.

ilovetherain wrote:I have not read this thread, but want to give you my two cents.

Men today do not marry because:

1) They don't have to. They get sex very easily without having to marry to get it. This started with the invention of birth control.
2) Some like men.
3) Porn and masturbation satisfy them sexually, feeling their need for intimacy (at least they think so) - this implies to LDS men that are not to fornicate, so they justify porn/masturbation.
4) Men fear failure. So they look at relationships logically and see their chances are 50/50, and determine it is safer to stay single, and may feel a need to protect their careers and incomes.
5) And there are some men that really do want to get married, work very hard at finding their mate, but at present has alluded them, and is their cross to bear. And these men should not be judged by the rest of us.
6) Some came from dysfunctional and painful, broken homes and actually may have PTSD, so when trying to date and court a woman, she may unknowingly trigger his pain, and he may run from her.

All true, except for #6, I had a fine home life.

Sirocco wrote:

ilovetherain wrote:I have not read this thread, but want to give you my two cents.

Men today do not marry because:

1) They don't have to. They get sex very easily without having to marry to get it. This started with the invention of birth control.
2) Some like men.
3) Porn and masturbation satisfy them sexually, feeling their need for intimacy (at least they think so) - this implies to LDS men that are not to fornicate, so they justify porn/masturbation.
4) Men fear failure. So they look at relationships logically and see their chances are 50/50, and determine it is safer to stay single, and may feel a need to protect their careers and incomes.
5) And there are some men that really do want to get married, work very hard at finding their mate, but at present has alluded them, and is their cross to bear. And these men should not be judged by the rest of us.
6) Some came from dysfunctional and painful, broken homes and actually may have PTSD, so when trying to date and court a woman, she may unknowingly trigger his pain, and he may run from her.

All true, except for #6, I had a fine home life.

Are you saying 1-5 are true and reflect you and your situation, implying 6 is true also but not applicable to you, or are you saying 6 is incorrect? I can see all 6 being a justifiable reason for not marrying. The justification may be wrong, but it could be used any way.

skmo wrote:

Sirocco wrote:

ilovetherain wrote:I have not read this thread, but want to give you my two cents.

Men today do not marry because:

1) They don't have to. They get sex very easily without having to marry to get it. This started with the invention of birth control.
2) Some like men.
3) Porn and masturbation satisfy them sexually, feeling their need for intimacy (at least they think so) - this implies to LDS men that are not to fornicate, so they justify porn/masturbation.
4) Men fear failure. So they look at relationships logically and see their chances are 50/50, and determine it is safer to stay single, and may feel a need to protect their careers and incomes.
5) And there are some men that really do want to get married, work very hard at finding their mate, but at present has alluded them, and is their cross to bear. And these men should not be judged by the rest of us.
6) Some came from dysfunctional and painful, broken homes and actually may have PTSD, so when trying to date and court a woman, she may unknowingly trigger his pain, and he may run from her.

All true, except for #6, I had a fine home life.

Are you saying 1-5 are true and reflect you and your situation, implying 6 is true also but not applicable to you, or are you saying 6 is incorrect? I can see all 6 being a justifiable reason for not marrying. The justification may be wrong, but it could be used any way.

1-5 I would say apply to me, 6 does not apply to me, all are true things, not all apply to me.

Sunain wrote:

skmo wrote:

Sirocco wrote:Women date up, never down or on their own level.

Not true (at least not entirely.) You're talking about gold-diggers, and there you're right. However, in many ways my wife married down. I have a couple of real strengths I bring, but she's better than I am on most levels other than beating people up and finding my way into sin.

You're definitely a lucky guy because these days its impossible to find women in the church that will even date guys that they think are below them, that is when they decide too look up from their cell phone to even talk and pay attention. I've seen it with others and I've had it happen to me a couple times. It also doesn't help that the amount of active members in the dating poll outside of Utah is pretty slim.

Thinker wrote:I'm going to say something you may consider bold, but I hope you take it well.
If you really want to get married - you can - the only thing that's holding you back, is your high expectations nobody's been able to meet.
I'm not suggesting you lower important standards and values - just be flexible and realize that we all have imperfections.
There is a small degree of compatibility - and attraction - but ultimately, the passion fades and it's more about companionship - which is about how well you can be a good husband, and how well she can be a good wife.

I don't think I have very high expectations and I think I'm quite flexible. I live a pretty humble life as it is. A temple worthy member of the church, intelligent, spiritual, not after worldly pursuits, knows the correct doctrine of the church, caring and loving. That's basically what I look for in a spouse but its harder these day's than it sounds.

Belief is powerful!
There are times when maybe each of us feels so alone - and when we focus on all of the times when something or someone didn't work out - it can confirm beliefs based on cognitive distortions (which often filter out the good so the entire focus is on the bad).
When I consider how people have come into my life and I into theirs at just the right moment - to love or teach each other something, I consider that the more I actively progress spiritually (and as part of that - socially), I have faith that those who I need to connect with - will come along.

There could be a million of women with the basics you described - but it doesn't matter because all it takes is one. And if I were you, I would explore "correct doctrine" that reveals that all of us billions - are all brothers and sisters - children of God.

How does that help?