LDS Freedom Forum

jdawg1012 wrote:

Jezebel wrote:To be blunt, any man who would be afraid to marry because he's afraid of losing everything isn't good enough for me. I'm glad those men are out of the running.

Meili, men aren't afraid of losing everything, that's always been a possibility.

Men aren't going to risk losing everything for a relationship that is currently one-sided no matter what, to which the benefit very little, in many instances. As happily married as I am, I can empathize with them. Women today have been taught they are the boss, and those who don't think they are generally still withhold sex as a manipulation tactic. It's widespread. They want men to cook, work, care for the kids etc. etc.

So if men are going to do everything themselves anyway, and they don't even get sex half the time, there isn't enough benefit to justify the ever increasing risk. It's like a slot machine that takes 50% of a skim (pardon, I'm from Vegas), but only pays out 5%, 45% of the time. It's a guaranteed losing bet for half the men, and the other half have questionable returns (though some marriages are great.

So for them, the question is: Why risk anything, when they can do better on average without. That's why they don't get married.

Admittedly, my comment was a bit extreme, but the whole point is, if a man is so worried about what he is going to get (or not get) out of marriage, then he has entirely missed the point.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4209837" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The word husband means to serve (think animal husbandry, etc.) The more challenging a marriage is, the more real blessings a man gets out of it. I empathize with men who have everything, including their children, stripped from them. I understand the fear. But again, there will always be challenges. If you're going to wait for things to be nice and easy then you've missed the whole point.

Climb the mountain. Don't sit around complaining that it is blocking your view.

It is a disgrace how men are treated in divorce settlements. I can fully understand the reluctance to marry.

skmo wrote:

Fiannan wrote:What we as humans see as beauty is based on what traits are associated with survival and enhanced possibility at reproduction. Obesity is a negative variable with both.

Tell that to Rubens. Or the huge numbers of women getting breast and/or butt implants.

Listen to the evolutionary psychologist I linked to. She points out why that would be the case.

As for obesity, again, not associated with overall health and only some people with fetish in modern society prefer obese women over slender or "plump" in the Marylin Monroe sort of context.

Jezebel wrote:Climb the mountain. Don't sit around complaining that it is blocking your view.

(This post is in general, but partially to you).

I actually agree with you, but the problem is that our way of thinking isn't the only way of thinking. I am a social psychologist by formal education (though it is not my current employment), and even though I have a good 16 years or so under my belt, I still continue to learn things. The brand of psychology I learned in college deals more with things that you might associate with marketing and the like, but in the last two years, I have gone back to school to expand my horizons, and have also personally dedicated thousands of hours in the last two years to understanding (better), interpersonal relationships. (I never wanted to be a counselor, so this was not the focus of my first two degrees). Anyway, I think there's something that would be worthwhile to add to this post.

People come in two types. One type is an introverted thinker/extroverted feeler (I'm going to call them dolphins, which is from a different way I explain this), and the other type is an extroverted thinker/introverted feeler (I'll call them monkeys). I should say, everyone is both extroverted and introverted, it's really just a matter of which thoughts and feelings are extroverted, and which are introverted. In all people they get one of those traits extroverted and one introverted. Recently in helping others in their relationships (I probably get a few dozen calls a week), I have made a bit of a breakthrough in helping people understand some of their conflicts with others.

It's important to understand these two types of people (it gets WAY MORE COMPLICATED, but I'll keep it simple). Monkeys are forward driven people. They interact, they build, they move. They get things done, regardless of their feeling on the matter. They have feelings, but they are not expressed in the way that the dolphins are. Their feelings are locked up in what I call "the lock box." Extroverted Thinkers/Introverted Feelers (Dolphins) have a deep set of feelings inside them, but it's locked up good and tight. In order to interact with them on a meaningful, emotional level, you have to get all the tumblers of the lock to click. Put another way, think of it as a series of three switches. All of the switches have to be turned on, or they don't light up. The problem is that these monkeys will not open their emotion box unless all the switches are on. Not one, not two, ALL. And one the lock is unlocked, that person feels loved/happy/joy joy (etc.), and until it happens, they are just frustrated, and feel isolated and misunderstood. It's absolutely vital to understand, because some monkeys have big switches, some are small, some are easy to turn on, and some are REALLY difficult. And one the switches are on, some monkeys are happy for a long time, and some need the switches on a lot. They NEED THAT ONE (sorta) PERFECT MOMENT, and that makes their soul happy. It's very important to understand this, because it's why monkeys and dolphins have big problems in their relationships.

Dolphins (extroverted feelers/introverted thinkers), do not have a lock box, they have a gift box. Their gift box doesn't have any locks. It's a big (or small), empty hole. In order for dolphins to feel happy, you have to fill up their gift box. Preferably, they want happy things in there, but they feel like they are empty, just like the box, until it is filled. This is EXTREMELY important. Each and every single day that box is depleted, empty. Some people have big boxes, some have small boxes. But all dolphins have an open box, and you have to fill it up, to make them happy. It doesn't matter if you throw in expensive things, or cheap things, tomorrow that box WILL BE EMPTY.

This is important to understand, because monkeys eat bananas and dolphins eat fish. And Extroverted thinkers have locks on their emotions that only open under the right conditions, and Extroverted feelers have gift boxes that need things placed in them every day.

Let's look at this in a real life example. My mother is a monkey. Her mother is a dolphin. My mother went to great lengths to give my mom a special weekend together. They went out to eat, and to a movie and did "old lady things" as they call it. My mom was happy, my grandma was happy. The next day came. My grandma wanted to do more stuff. My mother did not. My mother was satisfied, because her lock box was opened, and then it shut again, waiting for the right circumstances to come again in a few weeks or months. But grandma was angry, because my mom didn't call the next day, or the day after that, or the day after that. Because every single day, her box didn't get anything put in it. So my mom and grandma were both unhappy. My mom couldn't understand why she had to cater to my grandma everyday, and my grandma couldn't understand why my mom didn't want to go have fun anymore. It's because monkeys live on land, and dolphins live in the water. Monkeys drown in the world of extroverted feelers, and dolphins dry out and die in the land of extroverted thinkers.

Why this is important in marriage, is because the extroverted thinkers are "survivors." We're very resilient. We work, and we fight, and we don't give up. But inside we're big babies, and we want that ONE special person to come and unlock our strong box, to UNDERSTAND US.

Extroverted feelers need regular OUTWARD displays of intimacy. They want gifts, or nights out. Talking to them on an emotional level is like feeding dolphins bananas. They simply CANNOT understand why when they give the monkey some fish, the monkey eats bananas instead. It's because the monkeys don't value the briny fish, they like their sweet bananas. And the dolphins don't want the bananas either, because when the monkey sets them down for the dolphin, the dolphin doesn't understand that it's food.

This is important, because the metaphorical monkey and dolphins are attracted to the qualities of the opposing animal. There is a saying "Opposites attract, but they don't stay together." If a monkey and a dolphin marry, they will NEVER feel truly satisfied, not for long. It will be a daily struggle to feel cherished and understood. they can do it, but it will be a willful struggle, and a never ending personal battle. The monkeys can learn to swim, and the dolphins can learn to sit on the beach, but invariably, and always, the two animals will have to return home. Some people make these relationships work, but they ARE NEVER natural or easy. Once the passion dies down, these people are like real dolphins and monkeys. In completely different worlds. Then they usually eventually split up. Being on land tires dolphins, and swimming all day tires monkeys. (In psychology doing these unnatural things is called a "shadow function." Shadow functions ALWAYS drain you, and your true functions are easy and natural, like a dolphin swimming, or a monkey climbing a tree, natural functions are respectively easy and effortless.)

Now, monkeys and dolphins can learn to spend time and can even interact ok, but they'll always feel a little empty, or never quite understood. I believe that the atonement can solve these things, eventually, in eternity, but that for now, we can just make due. But not all people can just pick up and go, go, go. I can, I suspect you can. But it's important to understand that dolphins do not. Dolphins, while intelligent to not build things (like a monkey could). They live productive happy lives, but in their world, and in their way. For now, if a dolphin and monkey are married, they can learn to compromise by eating the bananas and the fish the other offers, and do the best they can. They can build a healthy life, but it will always drain them, and cause conflict, but they can do the best they are capable of. But I suspect the greatest problem of all, is that these two groups can't understand when the other is showing their love, like my mother and my grandma. It's for this reason that I wrote all this, because even I didn't fully understand the workings of the misunderstanding in my own marriage, because I didn't understand that I was a monkey, and my wife was a dolphin, for many, many years.

So I guess in closing, I would hope that people could learn more about themselves, and if they struggle with others, I hope they can learn more about these ideas. I might just create a post that's separate. But I think it's important to understand, that men aren't marrying, because if they are the extroverted thinkers, they are troubled by a system designed to take their mates, who are the ones they entrust with the combination to their lock box. And extroverted feelers prefer to deal with their virtual partners and surrogate intimacies (like hanging out), to risking a marriage that may leave them alone, isolated. Women can have these same fears, but government and church members coddle and provide temporally for women in ways that they will never do for men. So they are incentivized to exploit men, and men are punished for even trying, so much of the time.

I hope I've said something that adds value. I hope someone out there gets the message they might need. I so pray, in the Sacred Name of Jesus Christ, amen.

I sympathise with your Grandmother, it seems your Mother is a selfish daughter who forgets her debt to her mother and leaves her alone.

Elizabeth wrote:I sympathise with your Grandmother, it seems your Mother is a selfish daughter who forgets her debt to her mother and leaves her alone.

Your extroverted feeling/introverted thinking displayed in your post is completely understandable, and a beautifully crafted demonstration of exactly the problem I was addressing. And I appreciate you taking the time to prove my point exactly. It illustrates the frustrations and disconnect between the two types (Your Fe/Ti and my mother's Te/Fi).

Extroverted feelers (such as yourself) are incapable of understanding introverted feelers and cannot naturally commiserate with them in any meaningful way (and vice versa), as I just explained. However, with work, dialog, and commitment, then can learn to understand each other, objectively, if not subjectively. Additionally, based upon your response, you're obviously a strong introverted intuiter/weak extroverted sensor. Probably an INFJ (for future reference).

Extroverted feelers also have the additional handicap of generally being unable to sympathize with other people generally (even among themselves, because their thinking is driven inwards, only their EMOTIONAL expression is outwardly driven, hence your emotionally driven outward value judgement of my mother). And strong introverted intuiters (such as yourself) form black and white judgements, with very little sensory input (extroverted sensing is the weakest trait of an INFJ). (I won't bore you with details about all of the functions of your personality traits on this thread, feel free to PM me). And please understand that this doesn't make you "good," or "bad" it's just a difference in your personality, that needs to be considered when you deal with others. (My personality trait, ENTJ, has to carefully modulate it's interaction with strong feelers, such as yourself, because we are perceived as very aloof or robotic, because we are the most action and logic driven of all the types, each type has it's own considerations and struggles).

In your hasty desire to express your [unfounded] extroverted feeling (which is completely natural for your collective personality functions working together), you completely overlook your factual ignorance of the rest of the situation--such as that you are entirely ignorant of the fact that my mother has secondary progressive multiple sclerosis, has recently moved 2000 miles cross country, after my father (her husband of several decades) died, and has been taking care of my grandmother as best she can, while trying to coordinate her new schedule for her own medical treatment. You're also ignorant of the fact that my grandmother also has three other children who live in the area, and the fact that my mother lets my grandmother live in her house with her for extended period, so that she isn't alone in her own house, doing chores, such as cleaning up her incontinence, because my uncles refuse to. But like all strong introverted intuiters with strong extroverted feelings (observable by your matter-of-fact judgement call, and baseless judgement of my mother as "selfish"), you based your opinion by "shooting from the hip", with an emotionally based, unsubstantiated value judgement, that you didn't take the time to gather more information about. It's so commonly observable in the Ti-Fe/Ni-Se personality, that it's almost cliche. It's a liability in some instances (INFJ's can be overzealous and extreme), but is a strength in others (they are not easily dissuaded from their beliefs and are fiercely protective of their ingroups, like their children).

But like all extroverted feelers (which you obviously are, and again, almost certainly an INFJ), you mistakenly assert, in your factual ignorance, that my mother's introverted feeling function is "selfish." Extroverted feelers (dolphins) view the introverted feelers (monkeys) as cold, aloof, selfish, uncaring, and as "users"/"takers," and introverted feelers view extroverted feelers as demanding, overly dramatic, lazy, impersonal, impractical, fake, and contrived. This is because the dolphins and the monkeys live in different worlds, and operate differently. That was entirely my point. Dolphins and monkeys live differently, interact differently and understand differently. And it's important that we see the differences, if we ever want to understand them. And to many of us, understanding each other is VERY important.

You may be intrigued to know that it's a common trait for extroverted feelers to feel like introverted feelers don't appreciate them, or that they are "being used" (expressed by your phrase, "a selfish daughter who forgets her debt"). But that's because you eat fish and they eat bananas. It's because you're trying to "fill a gift box" and not "unlock the strong box." This is vitally important, especially in marriage, because dolphins try and fill the gift box every day (like my grandmother wanted my mom to cater to her/accompany her continually) while the monkey's try and unlock the strong box (such as my mom trying to make the perfect weekend). And thus the two types can wear themselves out trying to do the WRONG THING. The monkey's don't have gift boxes. The dolphins don't have strong boxes. The dolphins refuse to talk, and instead make emotional displays. And the Monkey's try to talk, and refuse to open up their emotions. This is vital, because it's impossible for the monkey to feel fullfilled by the dolphins gift, they MUST have the stong box unlocked. And it is IMPOSSIBLE for the monkey to "unlock" the dolphin, they MUST fill up the gift box. So each one must periodically sacrifice themselves (when in a mismatched relationship) to please the other.

Visualized another way, Dolphins want to play, not talk. Monkeys want to talk, not play. But they CAN fulfill each other, by making an effort to meet the needs of the other person, but if they're mismatched (a dolphin and a monkey, instead of two dolphins, or two monkeys), they will almost always feel drained and unfulfilled, with only brief and fleeting moment of unity. They may love each other, but they never really mesh correctly. It's because this is not a natural. They can make it work, and force it to work, but it's never going to have the natural flow and fulfillment of a correct match.

This is why understanding of the differences in personality functions is so important. I could have gotten offended by your baseless and crass value judgement of my mother, but instead I recognize that you're merely having a visceral response, characteristic to the Ti-Fe/Ni-Se personality group. I'm not offended, angry, or upset (my type isn't usually easily offended anyway). Because it's entirely understandable, and once you understand other people, you can work to find common ground, and improve each other's knowledge and understanding. Your passionate reply is based on a value judgment you made in ignorance ("a selfish daughter who forgets her debt"), but I don't fault you for your zeal, it's the protective nature of the INFJ (which I'm 99.9% confident you are, you are certainly a Ti-Fe/Ni-Se, and the Fe supersedes the Ti, and the Ni supersedes the Se).

And now you see how knowledge of the functions can help you avert that misunderstanding in the future. I appreciate the demonstration you just provided. This was very helpful in seeing how the different types communicate. Extroverted feelers (dolphins) outwardly express their passionate emotions, and extroverted thinkers (monkeys) outwardly express their logical thoughts. There is a place for both, and more knowledge and more understanding benefit everyone.

This is important, because when this happens in marriage, the communication can break down. When improperly matched, one dolphin with one monkey, the dolphin will refuse to talk about what's bothering them, to achieve a resolution, and will instead drop "hints," or be passive aggressive (they "clam up," and will often "simmer down" over time, rectifying the feelings separately, through introspection--they think to themselves), and the monkey will try and talk and fix things RIGHT NOW (they think aloud, talking to others), and wants to settle the matter immediately, and is perceived as nagging. That's why the two types should not mix. Two dolphins will go to their corners (their own thoughts, or emotional support network), and their box will be open again the next day (give or take), and two monkeys will fight/argue out the problem right then and there until they resolve it, and move on. But if mismatched, the monkey will follow the dolphin around the house begging, pleading and shouting, trying to get the dolphin to talk (Extroverted thinking), and the dolphin will just try and get away, seek time to sort their thoughts, alone (Introverted thinking). It's so, so common in marriages, one wants to talk it out, and the other wants to be left alone. That is a fundamental mismatch. They should both want the same method of conflict resolution, and that's natural if they are a good fit/correct personality match.

But, I thank you for your contribution, I think it greatly furthered the understanding of communication styles.

;)

do not forget I prefaced my comment with "it seems"

Elizabeth wrote: ;)

do not forget I prefaced my comment with "it seems"

LOL, that's very true. :ymhug: #:-s

Jezebel wrote:

jdawg1012 wrote:

Jezebel wrote:To be blunt, any man who would be afraid to marry because he's afraid of losing everything isn't good enough for me. I'm glad those men are out of the running.

Meili, men aren't afraid of losing everything, that's always been a possibility.

Men aren't going to risk losing everything for a relationship that is currently one-sided no matter what, to which the benefit very little, in many instances. As happily married as I am, I can empathize with them. Women today have been taught they are the boss, and those who don't think they are generally still withhold sex as a manipulation tactic. It's widespread. They want men to cook, work, care for the kids etc. etc.

So if men are going to do everything themselves anyway, and they don't even get sex half the time, there isn't enough benefit to justify the ever increasing risk. It's like a slot machine that takes 50% of a skim (pardon, I'm from Vegas), but only pays out 5%, 45% of the time. It's a guaranteed losing bet for half the men, and the other half have questionable returns (though some marriages are great.

So for them, the question is: Why risk anything, when they can do better on average without. That's why they don't get married.

Admittedly, my comment was a bit extreme, but the whole point is, if a man is so worried about what he is going to get (or not get) out of marriage, then he has entirely missed the point.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4209837" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The word husband means to serve (think animal husbandry, etc.) The more challenging a marriage is, the more real blessings a man gets out of it. I empathize with men who have everything, including their children, stripped from them. I understand the fear. But again, there will always be challenges. If you're going to wait for things to be nice and easy then you've missed the whole point.

Climb the mountain. Don't sit around complaining that it is blocking your view.

Why?! The mountain is my view now.
Climbing a real mountain would be easier, at least if I get hurt or die, it was nothing personal.
Life is hard, life has already been hard enough for me, unhappy and all that.
I couldn't give up what little joy I have to be miserable forever, what blessing is that?
Why don't I get to be happy in a marriage?

Obrien,

My post wasn't about me. I was using examples of my own children to illustrate how difficult it is, even, for those men who desire to step up to marriage and family do do so today.

However you said...

I would recommend in all seriousness that you divert your tithes and offerings directly to your family for a season, until they are better able to make it on their own. When they get on their feet, they can help others, and the ripples in the pond grow...

I know many here have lost their testimony in the fact that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the the true Church of Jesus Christ here on the earth at this time. So I must complete this story to demonstrate the truth of this church and his commandments.

I have paid my tithing most all of my adult life. I paid through many years in which I only did it because it was the right thing and "fire insurance", and I saw no economic benefit for doing so. I worked for Rockwell Automation for the last 16 years or so of my career. Rockwell, like many engineering firms was always looking at how to provide their services at a lower cost. They discovered that that there are a lot of smart engineers working in countries like India, China and the Ukraine who can work for a lot less than here in the U.S. They launched on a program to slowly transfer more and more of the engineering services performed here to those locations. I was in my mid 50s when they started doing this seriously. I feared the disaster that would occur when they layed me off at this time in my life in this economy. I worked in an office with about 20 engineers in it. Year after year they layed more and more engineers off as they were able to transfer those skills to lower cost foreign sources. Without going into a long description of this process, I can tell you that there is no logical reason why they layed certain other engineers off, but not me year after year. Then last year my turn came. I was 63, old enough to get Social Security, with just enough time in the pension plan to get a noticeable amount of money, and in fact to the day in time to get a last Christmas bonus. I testify that if you honestly pay your tithing, when the time comes God has your back.

How does God bless those who pay their tithing? Often by the acts of other people? How can you suggest that I stop paying my tithing, the very thing that blessed me so that I am not starving to give that money to my son? and what better use can I make of the blessing I got from paying my tithing that give some small portion of it to my son?

This is no big thing. I believe that the Lord has previously chastised his servants for lack of charity by noting that even the heathan takes care of his own family. I admire even more those who reach out beyond their family. Maybe one day I will be able to do so.


Regards,

George Clay

Someone above said:

Socialism isn't inherently evil, the United Order is an example of how a perfect socialist government could work. Everyone living within their means, providing for the people that are genuinely in need and need assistance.
Socialism is seen as an evil in the United States especially now because of the ways its attempting to be implemented. Socialism has worked well here in Canada with national healthcare system and even better in the Nordic countries with free post-secondary education. I agree though, people systematically living on welfare and food stamps is not the way we should be running society and is what gives Socialism its bad rep.

Socialism targets and victimizes mostly men, because socialism is based on force, someone has to be forced and it is usually the man.

Some countries and peoples deal with forced charity laws and penalties better than others....but how much force should be imposed on the "giver" to satisfy the user of charity?

Is a little force ok? how much force is enough? what are the side affects of socialism on men?...I think we are seeing it today.

The prophet says:

A little bit of Socialism is like a little bit cancer...

probably because a little bit of force stands a little bit against agency. I voted for agency and freedom in the premortal existence, why would I want to change my vote in mortality? Force has negative consequences that destroy men and families.

dauser wrote:Is a little force ok? how much force is enough? what are the side affects of socialism on men?...I think we are seeing it today.

The prophet says:

A little bit of Socialism is like a little bit cancer...

.

Socialism is fundamentally evil, because it violates the law of the harvest (you reap what you sow). I've written about this subject in great detail, with many quotes, if anyone feels like searching my posting history. The United Order is ABSOLUTELY NOT Socialism, even though to the unwary, it can appear that way. I recommend the talk, "Is Socialism the United Order? By President Marion G. Romney.

Sooooo, back to the original topic.... Anyone know a male who prefers video games and porn to real women and real life? If so, what pushed them to that decision?

jdawg1012 wrote:

Jezebel wrote:Climb the mountain. Don't sit around complaining that it is blocking your view.

(This post is in general, but partially to you).

I actually agree with you, but the problem is that our way of thinking isn't the only way of thinking. I am a social psychologist by formal education (though it is not my current employment), and even though I have a good 16 years or so under my belt, I still continue to learn things. The brand of psychology I learned in college deals more with things that you might associate with marketing and the like, but in the last two years, I have gone back to school to expand my horizons, and have also personally dedicated thousands of hours in the last two years to understanding (better), interpersonal relationships. (I never wanted to be a counselor, so this was not the focus of my first two degrees). Anyway, I think there's something that would be worthwhile to add to this post.

People come in two types. One type is an introverted thinker/extroverted feeler (I'm going to call them dolphins, which is from a different way I explain this), and the other type is an extroverted thinker/introverted feeler (I'll call them monkeys). I should say, everyone is both extroverted and introverted, it's really just a matter of which thoughts and feelings are extroverted, and which are introverted. In all people they get one of those traits extroverted and one introverted. Recently in helping others in their relationships (I probably get a few dozen calls a week), I have made a bit of a breakthrough in helping people understand some of their conflicts with others.

It's important to understand these two types of people (it gets WAY MORE COMPLICATED, but I'll keep it simple). Monkeys are forward driven people. They interact, they build, they move. They get things done, regardless of their feeling on the matter. They have feelings, but they are not expressed in the way that the dolphins are. Their feelings are locked up in what I call "the lock box." Extroverted Thinkers/Introverted Feelers (Dolphins) have a deep set of feelings inside them, but it's locked up good and tight. In order to interact with them on a meaningful, emotional level, you have to get all the tumblers of the lock to click. Put another way, think of it as a series of three switches. All of the switches have to be turned on, or they don't light up. The problem is that these monkeys will not open their emotion box unless all the switches are on. Not one, not two, ALL. And one the lock is unlocked, that person feels loved/happy/joy joy (etc.), and until it happens, they are just frustrated, and feel isolated and misunderstood. It's absolutely vital to understand, because some monkeys have big switches, some are small, some are easy to turn on, and some are REALLY difficult. And one the switches are on, some monkeys are happy for a long time, and some need the switches on a lot. They NEED THAT ONE (sorta) PERFECT MOMENT, and that makes their soul happy. It's very important to understand this, because it's why monkeys and dolphins have big problems in their relationships.

Dolphins (extroverted feelers/introverted thinkers), do not have a lock box, they have a gift box. Their gift box doesn't have any locks. It's a big (or small), empty hole. In order for dolphins to feel happy, you have to fill up their gift box. Preferably, they want happy things in there, but they feel like they are empty, just like the box, until it is filled. This is EXTREMELY important. Each and every single day that box is depleted, empty. Some people have big boxes, some have small boxes. But all dolphins have an open box, and you have to fill it up, to make them happy. It doesn't matter if you throw in expensive things, or cheap things, tomorrow that box WILL BE EMPTY.

This is important to understand, because monkeys eat bananas and dolphins eat fish. And Extroverted thinkers have locks on their emotions that only open under the right conditions, and Extroverted feelers have gift boxes that need things placed in them every day.

Let's look at this in a real life example. My mother is a monkey. Her mother is a dolphin. My mother went to great lengths to give my mom a special weekend together. They went out to eat, and to a movie and did "old lady things" as they call it. My mom was happy, my grandma was happy. The next day came. My grandma wanted to do more stuff. My mother did not. My mother was satisfied, because her lock box was opened, and then it shut again, waiting for the right circumstances to come again in a few weeks or months. But grandma was angry, because my mom didn't call the next day, or the day after that, or the day after that. Because every single day, her box didn't get anything put in it. So my mom and grandma were both unhappy. My mom couldn't understand why she had to cater to my grandma everyday, and my grandma couldn't understand why my mom didn't want to go have fun anymore. It's because monkeys live on land, and dolphins live in the water. Monkeys drown in the world of extroverted feelers, and dolphins dry out and die in the land of extroverted thinkers.

Why this is important in marriage, is because the extroverted thinkers are "survivors." We're very resilient. We work, and we fight, and we don't give up. But inside we're big babies, and we want that ONE special person to come and unlock our strong box, to UNDERSTAND US.

Extroverted feelers need regular OUTWARD displays of intimacy. They want gifts, or nights out. Talking to them on an emotional level is like feeding dolphins bananas. They simply CANNOT understand why when they give the monkey some fish, the monkey eats bananas instead. It's because the monkeys don't value the briny fish, they like their sweet bananas. And the dolphins don't want the bananas either, because when the monkey sets them down for the dolphin, the dolphin doesn't understand that it's food.

This is important, because the metaphorical monkey and dolphins are attracted to the qualities of the opposing animal. There is a saying "Opposites attract, but they don't stay together." If a monkey and a dolphin marry, they will NEVER feel truly satisfied, not for long. It will be a daily struggle to feel cherished and understood. they can do it, but it will be a willful struggle, and a never ending personal battle. The monkeys can learn to swim, and the dolphins can learn to sit on the beach, but invariably, and always, the two animals will have to return home. Some people make these relationships work, but they ARE NEVER natural or easy. Once the passion dies down, these people are like real dolphins and monkeys. In completely different worlds. Then they usually eventually split up. Being on land tires dolphins, and swimming all day tires monkeys. (In psychology doing these unnatural things is called a "shadow function." Shadow functions ALWAYS drain you, and your true functions are easy and natural, like a dolphin swimming, or a monkey climbing a tree, natural functions are respectively easy and effortless.)

Now, monkeys and dolphins can learn to spend time and can even interact ok, but they'll always feel a little empty, or never quite understood. I believe that the atonement can solve these things, eventually, in eternity, but that for now, we can just make due. But not all people can just pick up and go, go, go. I can, I suspect you can. But it's important to understand that dolphins do not. Dolphins, while intelligent to not build things (like a monkey could). They live productive happy lives, but in their world, and in their way. For now, if a dolphin and monkey are married, they can learn to compromise by eating the bananas and the fish the other offers, and do the best they can. They can build a healthy life, but it will always drain them, and cause conflict, but they can do the best they are capable of. But I suspect the greatest problem of all, is that these two groups can't understand when the other is showing their love, like my mother and my grandma. It's for this reason that I wrote all this, because even I didn't fully understand the workings of the misunderstanding in my own marriage, because I didn't understand that I was a monkey, and my wife was a dolphin, for many, many years.

So I guess in closing, I would hope that people could learn more about themselves, and if they struggle with others, I hope they can learn more about these ideas. I might just create a post that's separate. But I think it's important to understand, that men aren't marrying, because if they are the extroverted thinkers, they are troubled by a system designed to take their mates, who are the ones they entrust with the combination to their lock box. And extroverted feelers prefer to deal with their virtual partners and surrogate intimacies (like hanging out), to risking a marriage that may leave them alone, isolated. Women can have these same fears, but government and church members coddle and provide temporally for women in ways that they will never do for men. So they are incentivized to exploit men, and men are punished for even trying, so much of the time.

I hope I've said something that adds value. I hope someone out there gets the message they might need. I so pray, in the Sacred Name of Jesus Christ, amen.

I get what you are saying about different types of people. Maybe I shouldn't be speaking in terms of absolutes. What I am trying to do is identify an understanding of what the problem is and how it can be overcome. I get that different personalities will have different struggles. But no matter what, the principles of success are the same.

No one ever solved a problem by focusing on how overwhelmingly the odds were stacked against you. All this talk about why men don't want to get married may be true, but if that is the only side of the problem you look at, then you might as well give up now. Much of the conversation on this thread is by married people. I don't think it is helpful to those seeking marriage. It's kind of ironic, really. There's a lot of people saying, whew, I'm glad I didn't get stuck in the mud hole you are in. Why not promote hope?

A healthy look at the situation does help. It's fine to say, this is what the situation is like right now, and yes, it looks fairly grim. But if anything is going to change we need to get past that stage and start problem-solving.

The bottom line is, we are speaking of generals. And we are ignoring the ministrations of the heart. Marriage is an individual thing. Even if 99% of the female population is overly demanding and unloving, there is still 1%. And since a single man is only looking for a single woman (hopefully) then he has reason to hope. The focus ought to be, not on the masses of insensitive, demanding women, but on himself, on improving himself. Then he has reason to hope that he will attract a female who is focusing on improving herself as well.

The bottom line is, if a man is looking at marriage the way he would a business proposition, he just doesn't get the whole purpose of marriage. And even if he were to manage to find a woman who would stay with him the rest of their mortal lives, they still would have missed the boat, because they could never become spiritually one. That is just a universal principle of marriage. It applies to everyone, like the need to eat and drink applies to everyone, whether they are eating fish or bananas.

iWriteStuff wrote:Sooooo, back to the original topic.... Anyone know a male who prefers video games and porn to real women and real life? If so, what pushed them to that decision?

I knew a few, they had no success, had little skill or what have you.
I mean they didn't become total hermits they just hung around other men since the things they played (Magic the Gathering, Warhammer 40K) are heavily male populated.
If you're socially awkward or what not you're kind of doomed, or at least severely handicapped.
Women date up, never down or on their own level.
I met a lot of these men, some were lousy human beings, some were perfectly nice to be around.
Once upon a time I was quite heavy in the card game scene and the miniature game scene. Harder financial times caused me to fall behind but since I am getting back on my feet I can rekindle the joys of Warmachine.

Sirocco wrote:

Jezebel wrote:

jdawg1012 wrote:

Jezebel wrote:To be blunt, any man who would be afraid to marry because he's afraid of losing everything isn't good enough for me. I'm glad those men are out of the running.

Meili, men aren't afraid of losing everything, that's always been a possibility.

Men aren't going to risk losing everything for a relationship that is currently one-sided no matter what, to which the benefit very little, in many instances. As happily married as I am, I can empathize with them. Women today have been taught they are the boss, and those who don't think they are generally still withhold sex as a manipulation tactic. It's widespread. They want men to cook, work, care for the kids etc. etc.

So if men are going to do everything themselves anyway, and they don't even get sex half the time, there isn't enough benefit to justify the ever increasing risk. It's like a slot machine that takes 50% of a skim (pardon, I'm from Vegas), but only pays out 5%, 45% of the time. It's a guaranteed losing bet for half the men, and the other half have questionable returns (though some marriages are great.

So for them, the question is: Why risk anything, when they can do better on average without. That's why they don't get married.

Admittedly, my comment was a bit extreme, but the whole point is, if a man is so worried about what he is going to get (or not get) out of marriage, then he has entirely missed the point.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4209837" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The word husband means to serve (think animal husbandry, etc.) The more challenging a marriage is, the more real blessings a man gets out of it. I empathize with men who have everything, including their children, stripped from them. I understand the fear. But again, there will always be challenges. If you're going to wait for things to be nice and easy then you've missed the whole point.

Climb the mountain. Don't sit around complaining that it is blocking your view.

Why?! The mountain is my view now.
Climbing a real mountain would be easier, at least if I get hurt or die, it was nothing personal.
Life is hard, life has already been hard enough for me, unhappy and all that.
I couldn't give up what little joy I have to be miserable forever, what blessing is that?
Why don't I get to be happy in a marriage?

Um, you are the one who has to answer those questions yourself. Happiness isn't dependent upon your circumstances. Good circumstances can help, but those who are truly happy are happy because they have learned to by happy through the crap life throws at them. If getting married means trading a little joy for a lot of misery, then don't get married. But if you have learned to conquer life's challenges, then marriage will certainly throw enough of them your way to keep you occupied.

Jezebel wrote:
Why?! The mountain is my view now.
Climbing a real mountain would be easier, at least if I get hurt or die, it was nothing personal.
Life is hard, life has already been hard enough for me, unhappy and all that.
I couldn't give up what little joy I have to be miserable forever, what blessing is that?
Why don't I get to be happy in a marriage?

Um, you are the one who has to answer those questions yourself. Happiness isn't dependent upon your circumstances. Good circumstances can help, but those who are truly happy are happy because they have learned to by happy through the crap life throws at them. If getting married means trading a little joy for a lot of misery, then don't get married. But if you have learned to conquer life's challenges, then marriage will certainly throw enough of them your way to keep you occupied. [/quote]

I still don't see a point, the happier I get in life the more weary I become of things like marriage.
If I conquer many of life's, many of my challenges, why would I willingly just invite more?
After spending so long to overcome the ones I had...

Sunain wrote:

Thinker wrote:As mentioned, many possible reasons...

-Feminist movement
-Government redefining marriage so it's less meaningful
-High divorce rates scare them
-Addiction - especially video games
-Parents being too easy on them and not demanding response-ability
-Online socializing taking the place of in-person
-Pickiness - for men, porn causes unrealistic expectations; for women it's Disney
-Lack of perseverance - unrealistic expectation that love should always be passionate dopamine high
-Seeking after selfish pursuits - someone to worship/make them feel good

I would also add to this list:
- Worthy Companions (This is becoming a VERY seriously problem in the church as worldly ideals and ideas have crept into the lives of members of the church, not necessarily sinful but match the worlds status quo which is not the way members of the church should think.)
- Economic manipulation (Stock markets, stagnant wages, big business intent on excessive profit, Jobs)
- Economic Class (Almost impossible to have a 1 person working family anymore, Apostles now teach and recommend to only marry in ones economic class, which can also lower the available spouse pool.)
- Student loans at all time highs (Less disposable money for dates / no capital to purchase home or to think of starting a family)
- Acceptance of homosexuality / Gender differences dwindling
- Qualify of Life Standards (Current generations expect a higher standard of living but the costs limit who can attain it)
- Housing Costs at all time highs (Gentrification, Housing as commodities not abodes)
- Church pressure to marry immediately upon returning from a mission (Can lead to divorces, 30+ singles by church members are looked upon as something wrong with them)
- Young Single Adult/Single Adult Programs out of date or poorly run in many areas of the world
- Worldly requirements in a spouse (Barbie/Ken look, expensive clothes, car, house, ect)
- Prenup (Almost everywhere now recommend prenup as a way to protect both. Marriage is designed to fail now).

This goes along with a post I previously made on a similar forum thread:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=29405#p609778" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As a single, temple worthy person approaching mid-30's, I haven't completely given up on getting married but I feel with each passing day that getting married is less and less of a reality. I haven't given up but I get closer to accepting that being single is unfortunately the new reality in this world today and that is almost being forced upon us.

I think I am well off compared to many people these days, no debt, a strong foundation in gospel principles and doctrine, decent credentials yet I worry immensely that current conditions in the world would make raising a family extremely difficult even if I could find a worth member of the church to marry. Its not from a lack of trying or a lack of faith.

I know a few younger couples in the church and they have bucketloads of student loans and then loans on top of them and are trying to raise a family. The stress is immense and I go, yes, its a commandment and rewarding experience to raise a family and I have the faith to do so, but do I have the mental fortitude and money required for that kind of undertaking? We've been warned numerous times in the last couple decades by apostles to stay out of debt but that unfortunately is becoming less and less a reality for young people.

I personally think a lot of the marriage problem these comes down to one problem: Money. The recent economic downturn has had many consequences but I think the one consequence that really wasn't ever forecasted by economists was the social change. Nowadays most people think the stress and tension of a family can easily be avoided by getting a dog or a cat instead. Its cheaper and less stressful.

Hi Sunain,
I think your list has many valid points.
But I'd question the few I highlighted...
I don't believe people should marry within economic status - only maybe spiritual (character/integrity) status.
We can do without more - we don't need a fancy house and expensive cars.
If we get our priorities straight - we can make it work with one income - so one parent (usually mom) can actually parent their own kids.
We've done it and know many who have done it. They don't live luxurious lives - but their kids get a sense of security that is priceless.

I'm going to say something you may consider bold, but I hope you take it well.
If you really want to get married - you can - the only thing that's holding you back, is your high expectations nobody's been able to meet.
I'm not suggesting you lower important standards and values - just be flexible and realize that we all have imperfections.
There is a small degree of compatibility - and attraction - but ultimately, the passion fades and it's more about companionship - which is about how well you can be a good husband, and how well she can be a good wife.

Sirocco wrote:
I still don't see a point, the happier I get in life the more weary I become of things like marriage.
If I conquer many of life's, many of my challenges, why would I willingly just invite more?
After spending so long to overcome the ones I had...

My older brother is 35, socially awkward beyond all reason, and would rather draw and publish comic books from his bedroom than get trampled by the women in the area who have set their sites so much "higher" than him. That being said, he'd LOVE the "challenges" that come with getting married and having kids. It kills him that he's tried and failed in that department.

I guess my point is it's a matter of perspective and choice. He sees the blessing he's been denied (thus far), you see the challenges you can avoid.

I am getting a much better deal than my wife is. I'm a mess, and she is amazing.

iWriteStuff wrote:

Sirocco wrote:
I still don't see a point, the happier I get in life the more weary I become of things like marriage.
If I conquer many of life's, many of my challenges, why would I willingly just invite more?
After spending so long to overcome the ones I had...

My older brother is 35, socially awkward beyond all reason, and would rather draw and publish comic books from his bedroom than get trampled by the women in the area who have set their sites so much "higher" than him. That being said, he'd LOVE the "challenges" that come with getting married and having kids. It kills him that he's tried and failed in that department.

I guess my point is it's a matter of perspective and choice. He sees the blessing he's been denied (thus far), you see the challenges you can avoid.

Have him try dating sites. Considering this: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... eking-work" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and how socially awkward people are going to be replaced by robots, maybe we need to try to get our young people better able to compete in the workforce and in getting mates. Kinda ironic that psychopaths will win big time in the genetics game as they are the most socially skilled people on earth. The only thing that hinders a psychopath in mate selection is finding a wife/husband that is attractive enough to complete their wardrobe.

Where can you have a decent job and a decent inexpensive house? Times have changed a lot. Now even run-down houses cost more than a nice house used to. If you want to fix it up, you need much more money (have you checked the price of wood lately??), permits, contractors, etc. when you used to be able to do it with much less.

We've lived in poor housing, and we're living there now--in general, you're getting many more problems from neighbors. Which might not be too bad, but then your children are getting all kinds of problems in school, because you're living in a bad school district, too. Maybe some can handle it. But who wants to try, with their children? It makes it not worth living there, in general. Especially if you're one of those socially awkward guys looking to get married and have children.

JohnnyL wrote:Where can you have a decent job and a decent inexpensive house? Times have changed a lot. Now even run-down houses cost more than a nice house used to. If you want to fix it up, you need much more money (have you checked the price of wood lately??), permits, contractors, etc. when you used to be able to do it with much less.

We've lived in poor housing, and we're living there now--in general, you're getting many more problems from neighbors. Which might not be too bad, but then your children are getting all kinds of problems in school, because you're living in a bad school district, too. Maybe some can handle it. But who wants to try, with their children? It makes it not worth living there, in general. Especially if you're one of those socially awkward guys looking to get married and have children.

Darwin said that adaptation is the key to success.

Fiannan wrote:

JohnnyL wrote:Where can you have a decent job and a decent inexpensive house? Times have changed a lot. Now even run-down houses cost more than a nice house used to. If you want to fix it up, you need much more money (have you checked the price of wood lately??), permits, contractors, etc. when you used to be able to do it with much less.

We've lived in poor housing, and we're living there now--in general, you're getting many more problems from neighbors. Which might not be too bad, but then your children are getting all kinds of problems in school, because you're living in a bad school district, too. Maybe some can handle it. But who wants to try, with their children? It makes it not worth living there, in general. Especially if you're one of those socially awkward guys looking to get married and have children.

Darwin said that adaptation is the key to success.

Kinda like Rocky Balboa "adapted" himself into a punching bag, eh?

JK, of course. My point being you can't step into the ring without getting hit a few times. But it's worth it.

iWriteStuff wrote:

Sirocco wrote:
I still don't see a point, the happier I get in life the more weary I become of things like marriage.
If I conquer many of life's, many of my challenges, why would I willingly just invite more?
After spending so long to overcome the ones I had...

My older brother is 35, socially awkward beyond all reason, and would rather draw and publish comic books from his bedroom than get trampled by the women in the area who have set their sites so much "higher" than him. That being said, he'd LOVE the "challenges" that come with getting married and having kids. It kills him that he's tried and failed in that department.

I guess my point is it's a matter of perspective and choice. He sees the blessing he's been denied (thus far), you see the challenges you can avoid.

Oh I wouldn't argue that, of course some see it in a positive light and others in a negative one.
But how many times can one fail before they should give up?
Some take failure less easy then others.
I'm not sure where I stack up, I mean I certainly enjoy my time, I've heard so many people say in their life "I want to write a novel" I'm on my 6th.
Some people see the challenge as positive and welcoming, others see it as destructive and something to be avoided at all costs.