LDS Freedom Forum

Sirocco wrote:Porn is free, marriage could and probably would ruin me. And I am not a gambling man.

That's a common sentiment.

Once upon a time (like 15-20 years ago), when people would talk about prenuptual agreements before marriage, I would tell them, "I think that if you walk into marriage expecting failure, and preparing for it, you're not ready for it." I told people that if they couldn't trust a person to share everything with them, including a bank account and their bed, than maybe they weren't ready to marry, or they might need to look for another person.

I no longer feel this way.

I don't have a simple solution to this problem (it would require a revolution in terms of societal thinking), and fortunately it isn't really an issue for my personal (marital) situation. We have separate bank accounts, for simple financial/accounting reasons (not because of trust or anything), and I'm very happily married, but if I were in the "dating/marriage" market today, I think it would be a rough decision on how to insulate myself from the total disadvantage men have. I, PERSONALLY, still believe that if I am getting into marriage (I mean hypothetically, if I were getting into a new one), I would not marry unless I trusted the other person, without reservations, and be open with finances, etc. But I am an excellent judge of character, and predictor of behaviors (not to flaunt, but to explain). Even so, the older I get, and the more established, the more I think I would be open to prenuptuals, if I had to marry again. It's simply stacked too unevenly against men, today.

I have seen too many people destroyed in divorce (almost exclusively men, destroyed by their wives, but not always). My (adopted) dad got a divorce from his first wife, and married my mother (and this was way back in the 1980's). And his divorce was awful. My dad hadn't cheated (as far as I know, and have been told), but his first wife just didn't want to be married (she thought he had cheated, but he hadn't, again as best I know). But they were a bad match, anyway. But the point is, at divorce time, he gave her everything. The house, the savings, EVERYTHING (My step-sisters--his daughters--were adults, so there was no custody issue). He gave her the car, the furniture, any other physical and financial assets, all of it. He only asked that he be allowed to keep his old work truck, and that she couldn't get access to his eventual pension when he did eventually retire. He also wanted to keep a small box of his childhood toys, and a few silver dollars that his sister had given him before she died (silver money was not worth a lot, because it hadn't been out of circulation for too long), the value was sentimental, not financial.

But his wife demanded not only all the other stuff, but took the silver dollars that had almost no monetary worth, and sold them (they were worth barely over face value), then she gave him half of the proceeds. It wasn't about the money for him, she had already given her everything, it was about the memory of his dead sister. But she took it all, and tried to get the retirement fund too, but the judge refused. But she got almost 100% of their life's savings/assets, and still she had to hurt him more. Even when he had rolled over for her.

Anyway, since those many decades ago, society values men even less. I don't blame any man for protecting himself. Women usually take close to everything in divorce, and so often beat their husbands violently, and walk Scott free. I would hate to be in the marriage market today.

When I was an EQP, one of my elders went through a divorce.

He was a good guy and a hard worker. He was working as a salesman and worked long hours for small pay. His wife wanted him to change careers to make more money.

When he didn't do this, she claimed the Lord told her in the temple that this was a violation of his temple covenants and divorced him. He was blind-sided. She took the kids and the stuff and married a doctor within 8 months. His child support payments and alimony were over 60% of his income. He had to get a second job to pay them.

We talk about this being a worldly issue, but how the church handled this was even more devastating. She destroyed this family and marriage and was treated as a victim in her new ward and was never subject to any church discipline.

About a year after her new marriage, he came to me asking if the church could cancel his sealing without his permission. He had received a letter from someone in the church leadership (maybe her Bishop.. i don't remember) asking if he would agree to cancel the sealing. I don't know what happened after that.

Men incur all the risk in marriage. Both in the church and society at large. I say this as a happily married man of 20 years. I am blessed to be married to a wonderful woman. And yet, I realize that all that we have built over the last 20 years could be taken in the blink of an eye if she so chose, and there would be nothing I could do about it.

I have both married and unmarried children.

I have a son who graduated from USU in 2008 with a BS degree in Computer science. He returned here in SE Pennsylvania, and has never been able to find an entry level job in his field. He lives at home (pays rent) and works at Giant supermarkets. He has been careful with his money and has paid off his student loan, but I know he fears trying to start a family and is not pursuing marriage, not because of not wanting the responsibilities, but because he fears that he cannot properly fulfill the responsibilities of husband and provider.

I have a grandson who recently graduated from Penn State university. It took him a year working part time minimum wage labor jobs, but he finally found a job in his field... paying about $40K a year. It is difficult enough to start a family with this income, but he also has over $50K in student loans that cost him some $700 / month. He is a returned missionary and would also like to start a family, but doesn't see any way out of his financial hole

I know that the church recommends that you just have faith and marry and let the Lord help you work things out....

However...

I have another son who also went on a mission, upon returning home from his mission, he did get married (in the temple). He is active in the church and they have 3 kids. He works for a local Rocket engine manufacturing company as a skilled machinist. He gets pretty good "blue collar" pay. That being said, they live extremely modestly, and yet they would almost starve, if they didn't get both fast offering assistance and help from me.

I suppose there is plenty of social forces tempting our young men to not get married and not deal with cultural hostility towards men, but I can show you from my personal experience, it is difficult and discouraging for even those who would like to create a traditional family.

Regards,

George Clay

gclayjr wrote:I have both married and unmarried children.

I have a son who graduated from USU in 2008 with a BS degree in Computer science. He returned here in SE Pennsylvania, and has never been able to find an entry level job in his field. He lives at home (pays rent) and works at Giant supermarkets. He has been careful with his money and has paid off his student loan, but I know he fears trying to start a family and is not pursuing marriage, not because of not wanting the responsibilities, but because he fears that he cannot properly fulfill the responsibilities of husband and provider.

I have a grandson who recently graduated from Penn State university. It took him a year working part time minimum wage labor jobs, but he finally found a job in his field... paying about $40K a year. It is difficult enough to start a family with this income, but he also has over $50K in student loans that cost him some $700 / month. He is a returned missionary and would also like to start a family, but doesn't see any way out of his financial hole

I know that the church recommends that you just have faith and marry and let the Lord help you work things out....

However...

I have another son who also went on a mission, upon returning home from his mission, he did get married (in the temple). He is active in the church and they have 3 kids. He works for a local Rocket engine manufacturing company as a skilled machinist. He gets pretty good "blue collar" pay. That being said, they live extremely modestly, and yet they would almost starve, if they didn't get both fast offering assistance and help from me.

I suppose there is plenty of social forces tempting our young men to not get married and not deal with cultural hostility towards men, but I can show you from my personal experience, it is difficult and discouraging for even those who would like to create a traditional family.

Regards,

George Clay

George - good man, for helping your family. I would recommend in all seriousness that you divert your tithes and offerings directly to your family for a season, until they are better able to make it on their own. When they get on their feet, they can help others, and the ripples in the pond grow...

Women use government.

It is hard for a man to compete with all powerful government.

Government gives women a free education, protection, child support and other assistance as needed.

She gets government benefits without liabilities.

Why would a women need a man when she has government?
Why would a women want to sleep by a slave to government?
Women are being attracted to other women thanks to public policy.
And men being attracted to other men thank to public policy.

Under socialism, a man provides payroll and benefits to many government agents posing as father figures, supporting strange women and their children... leaving very little for himself, his own wife and his own children. A wife has very little to thank her husband for, thanks to public policy.

Public policy is preventing and destroying families.

We all know who gives us public policy...yep the same people who give us monetary policy.

Men are no longer essential, our doctors, lawyers, priests, teachers, police, roofers and plumbers are after The Order Of Nehor. Women want security not a demasculated, publicly educated man....and women vote socialism.

Free education, free lunch, is paid for by destroying families.

The hearts of the women and children have been turned to the government (lunch, education etc) and the hearts of the fathers have been turned to social security and the earth is smitten with a curse.

The affects of socialist Public policy on the man, women and children, messes with every ones mind and turns reality upside down.

Like the prophet said:

A little bit of socialism is like a little bit of cancer

.

Serragon wrote:When I was an EQP, one of my elders went through a divorce.

He was a good guy and a hard worker. He was working as a salesman and worked long hours for small pay. His wife wanted him to change careers to make more money.

When he didn't do this, she claimed the Lord told her in the temple that this was a violation of his temple covenants and divorced him. He was blind-sided. She took the kids and the stuff and married a doctor within 8 months. His child support payments and alimony were over 60% of his income. He had to get a second job to pay them.

We talk about this being a worldly issue, but how the church handled this was even more devastating. She destroyed this family and marriage and was treated as a victim in her new ward and was never subject to any church discipline.

About a year after her new marriage, he came to me asking if the church could cancel his sealing without his permission. He had received a letter from someone in the church leadership (maybe her Bishop.. i don't remember) asking if he would agree to cancel the sealing. I don't know what happened after that.

Men incur all the risk in marriage. Both in the church and society at large. I say this as a happily married man of 20 years. I am blessed to be married to a wonderful woman. And yet, I realize that all that we have built over the last 20 years could be taken in the blink of an eye if she so chose, and there would be nothing I could do about it.

Unfortunately, I think that is too often the case.
I think in any marriage, there are difficult times when both want to give up.
When kids are involved, each spouse owes it to them to make every effort to keep the family intact.
Breaking up because of finances or church is ridiculous.

Dr. Laura once suggested just 3 justifications for divorce:
Abuse
Addiction
Affair

Women would rather use government.

It is hard for a man to compete with all powerful government.

Government gives women a free education, protection, child support and other assistance as needed.

She gets government benefits without liabilities.

Why would a women need a man when she has government?
Why would a women want to sleep by a slave to government?
Women are being attracted to other women thanks to public policy.
And men being attracted to other men thank to public policy.

Under socialism, a man provides payroll and benefits to many government agents posing as father figures, he supports strange women and their children by taxation (unlike the support provided in plural marriages)... leaving very little for himself, his own wife and his own children. A wife has very little to thank her husband for, thanks to public policy.

Public policy is preventing and destroying families.

We all know who gives us public policy...yep the same people who give us monetary policy.

Men are no longer essential, our doctors, lawyers, priests, teachers, police, roofers and plumbers are after The Order Of Nehor. Women want security not a demasculated, publicly educated man....and women vote for the security of socialism, rather than to raise and sustain a man.

Free education, free lunch, is paid for by destroying families.

A little bit of socialism is a little bit of anti-family.

The hearts of the women and children have been turned to the government (lunch, education, school ball etc) and the hearts of the fathers have been turned to social security and the earth is smitten with a curse.

The prophet said:

A little bit of socialism is like a little bit of cancer

I would like to echo what others have said.

The only divorces among my relatives have been the wife leaving because the husband is not supporting her desired lifestyle. Not starving, but they grew up rich and want to stay that way.

Meanwhile, the men get beat up and disciplined if they look at a naked breast, but women can destroy their family and receive no disciplinary action whatsoever.

I think feminism has infected the church. Women are told they can do no wrong, and the nature of men is evil - aggression and sex are bad. Sex is dirty, disgusting, porn is filth and vulgar. All sorts of ways to describe the wretchedness of men, while the nature of women is considered sweet and desirable.

I have had to point out to my wife that women can be evil, also, and she finally gets it. Women can be liars, manipulators, emotionally and physically abusive, tear families apart with divorce, withhold sex and use it as a weapon, etc, etc.

Fascinating that any sexuality outside marriage is dirty and 'cheating', but you can deny sex and no problem. Ever hear a conference talk reprimanding wives for withholding sex? Just tell your husband, you can't look at anyone else, or have sex with anyone else, and oh, by the way, you can't do it with me, either. Celibacy.

I recommend to young men that if they get married, expect little, and remember that most wives aren't very interested in you. They want your paycheck so they can have children, and they want a good image to impress other members or friends.

I learned this years ago when experiencing some career problems and depression, and my wife threatened me with divorce. She was worried about money, and the kids, and her church status, but seemed to have little concern for me. Which made things even harder for me. Took years to be okay with that understanding.

Most men are naïve about their wive's feelings towards them (or lack of feelings). Years ago my neice stopped by on her way to college, BYUI, where her folks had met. She said her mom told her to not make the same mistake she made when she married her dad (my brother). Her dad had trouble with classes and had to drop out, and they didn't have the lifestyle she wanted. I made a general comment once to my brother about women being disappointed in their husbands and he had no idea what I was talking about.

I really like this guy's take on a lot of things.

Marry a Third-World Woman and Live Happily Ever After.

Be aware he may use a swear word or two, but his thoughts are very apropos on this. As he's had the same Mexican wife for years now (happily for both parties) I'd say he practices what he preaches, too.

skmo wrote:I really like this guy's take on a lot of things.

Marry a Third-World Woman and Live Happily Ever After.

Be aware he may use a swear word or two, but his thoughts are very apropos on this. As he's had the same Mexican wife for years now (happily for both parties) I'd say he practices what he preaches, too.

I've been told that (and heard the successes spouted all over the net) but I am pretty poor so, that's not gonna be a good option either.

Yeah, what Jdawg, djinwa said...

Unless a man views marriage as something sanctioned by God and essential to their eternal progression, why in the world would he expose himself to so much risk for so little reward. Marriage in America makes ZERO sense to the male gender. There is virtually no upside with a endless pit of woe and heartache on the downside.

djinwa wrote:I would like to echo what others have said.

The only divorces among my relatives have been the wife leaving because the husband is not supporting her desired lifestyle. Not starving, but they grew up rich and want to stay that way.

A couple of hours in Church and maybe an hour in a relief Society activity does not offset hours spent each day watching consumer porn on TV. Yes, all TV is designed to do is manipulate you into desiring more and more. Actually I am being unfair to porn here by using the term in conjunction with consumerism -- porn is far less harmful.

Meanwhile, the men get beat up and disciplined if they look at a naked breast, but women can destroy their family and receive no disciplinary action whatsoever.

But...but...naked breasts are bad. Now if they were covered in expensive jewelry then that would be compatible with the USA's consumeristic model and be righteous.

I think feminism has infected the church. Women are told they can do no wrong, and the nature of men is evil - aggression and sex are bad. Sex is dirty, disgusting, porn is filth and vulgar. All sorts of ways to describe the wretchedness of men, while the nature of women is considered sweet and desirable.

I would much rather catch my daughters looking at porn than daytime TV. Less destructive. And yes, if all you have in Church is criticism of men and putting women on a pedestal then feminism is reinforced.

I have had to point out to my wife that women can be evil, also, and she finally gets it. Women can be liars, manipulators, emotionally and physically abusive, tear families apart with divorce, withhold sex and use it as a weapon, etc, etc.

Quite true.

Fascinating that any sexuality outside marriage is dirty and 'cheating', but you can deny sex and no problem. Ever hear a conference talk reprimanding wives for withholding sex? Just tell your husband, you can't look at anyone else, or have sex with anyone else, and oh, by the way, you can't do it with me, either. Celibacy.

Recipe for disaster. Oh, and just a reminder to LDS women...there are always women out there more than happy to take your man off your hands if he is desirable in any way.

I recommend to young men that if they get married, expect little, and remember that most wives aren't very interested in you. They want your paycheck so they can have children, and they want a good image to impress other members or friends.

Now that may be a bit extreme.

I learned this years ago when experiencing some career problems and depression, and my wife threatened me with divorce. She was worried about money, and the kids, and her church status, but seemed to have little concern for me. Which made things even harder for me. Took years to be okay with that understanding.

Most men are naïve about their wive's feelings towards them (or lack of feelings). Years ago my neice stopped by on her way to college, BYUI, where her folks had met. She said her mom told her to not make the same mistake she made when she married her dad (my brother). Her dad had trouble with classes and had to drop out, and they didn't have the lifestyle she wanted. I made a general comment once to my brother about women being disappointed in their husbands and he had no idea what I was talking about.

Oh well, way things are going a lot of LDS co-eds will have to settle on marrying each other. The Church will likely come around to it if the women demand it.

Todd wrote:Yeah, what Jdawg, djinwa said...

Unless a man views marriage as something sanctioned by God and essential to their eternal progression, why in the world would he expose himself to so much risk for so little reward. Marriage in America makes ZERO sense to the male gender. There is virtually no upside with a endless pit of woe and heartache on the downside.

Even then. Because men in the church are told they aren't worthy to marry for a variety of reasons, including women just saying they're looking for a particular ideal of a man. I know a young lady (abt 25 yo), who wrote a blog saying that marrying a man who is an RM shouldn't be a factor, I think it got several hundred thousand hits, and hundreds upon hundreds of comments. Most were supportive, but some were virulently negative.

I never served a mission (health reasons), and was treated very poorly by a lot of girls in Utah, when I first moved there, which was strange, because where I was from, no one cared. I'm an attractive man (not to be vain), and lots of girls were interested, until I said I hadn't served a mission. They usually frowned, and said things like, "Oh well, I only date RMs." If they acted like I was damaged, I never even was able to mention health reasons, and I didn't give them any more info. Because if they didn't care about me as a person, past their perception of a mission litmus test, I didn't want to continue with them anyway. So, initially I felt unworthy, and then I just realized they didn't understand anything other than a parroted ideal. Fortunately I married the love of my life. But I don't empathize with the very choosy women I see in church, either.

Thinker wrote:As mentioned, many possible reasons...

-Feminist movement
-Government redefining marriage so it's less meaningful
-High divorce rates scare them
-Addiction - especially video games
-Parents being too easy on them and not demanding response-ability
-Online socializing taking the place of in-person
-Pickiness - for men, porn causes unrealistic expectations; for women it's Disney
-Lack of perseverance - unrealistic expectation that love should always be passionate dopamine high
-Seeking after selfish pursuits - someone to worship/make them feel good

I would also add to this list:
- Worthy Companions (This is becoming a VERY seriously problem in the church as worldly ideals and ideas have crept into the lives of members of the church, not necessarily sinful but match the worlds status quo which is not the way members of the church should think.)
- Economic manipulation (Stock markets, stagnant wages, big business intent on excessive profit, Jobs)
- Economic Class (Almost impossible to have a 1 person working family anymore, Apostles now teach and recommend to only marry in ones economic class, which can also lower the available spouse pool.)
- Student loans at all time highs (Less disposable money for dates / no capital to purchase home or to think of starting a family)
- Acceptance of homosexuality / Gender differences dwindling
- Qualify of Life Standards (Current generations expect a higher standard of living but the costs limit who can attain it)
- Housing Costs at all time highs (Gentrification, Housing as commodities not abodes)
- Church pressure to marry immediately upon returning from a mission (Can lead to divorces, 30+ singles by church members are looked upon as something wrong with them)
- Young Single Adult/Single Adult Programs out of date or poorly run in many areas of the world
- Worldly requirements in a spouse (Barbie/Ken look, expensive clothes, car, house, ect)
- Prenup (Almost everywhere now recommend prenup as a way to protect both. Marriage is designed to fail now).

This goes along with a post I previously made on a similar forum thread:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=29405#p609778" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As a single, temple worthy person approaching mid-30's, I haven't completely given up on getting married but I feel with each passing day that getting married is less and less of a reality. I haven't given up but I get closer to accepting that being single is unfortunately the new reality in this world today and that is almost being forced upon us.

I think I am well off compared to many people these days, no debt, a strong foundation in gospel principles and doctrine, decent credentials yet I worry immensely that current conditions in the world would make raising a family extremely difficult even if I could find a worth member of the church to marry. Its not from a lack of trying or a lack of faith.

I know a few younger couples in the church and they have bucketloads of student loans and then loans on top of them and are trying to raise a family. The stress is immense and I go, yes, its a commandment and rewarding experience to raise a family and I have the faith to do so, but do I have the mental fortitude and money required for that kind of undertaking? We've been warned numerous times in the last couple decades by apostles to stay out of debt but that unfortunately is becoming less and less a reality for young people.

I personally think a lot of the marriage problem these comes down to one problem: Money. The recent economic downturn has had many consequences but I think the one consequence that really wasn't ever forecasted by economists was the social change. Nowadays most people think the stress and tension of a family can easily be avoided by getting a dog or a cat instead. Its cheaper and less stressful.

jdawg1012 wrote:Men aren't getting married, because the supply of women worth marrying (for them) isn't very big. And it's dwindling.

I unfortunately tend to agree here. In the past decade, I've had more prospects outside of the church but obviously conflicting morals always get in the way there these days. Moral members are not congratulated enough these days for their integrity and faith despite the bombardment of evil influences.

Serragon wrote:When I was an EQP, one of my elders went through a divorce.

He was a good guy and a hard worker. He was working as a salesman and worked long hours for small pay. His wife wanted him to change careers to make more money.

When he didn't do this, she claimed the Lord told her in the temple that this was a violation of his temple covenants and divorced him. He was blind-sided. She took the kids and the stuff and married a doctor within 8 months. His child support payments and alimony were over 60% of his income. He had to get a second job to pay them.

We talk about this being a worldly issue, but how the church handled this was even more devastating. She destroyed this family and marriage and was treated as a victim in her new ward and was never subject to any church discipline.

I think that divorce rates being near 50% is a VERY big reason for people not getting married these days. I know its in the back of my head. I know I'd do everything in my power to have a successful marriage but that's not always the case for a spouse. It seems worldly ambitions are really playing a central roll now in divorces. Males are afraid that if it does go south, they are basically screwed over the way the justice system goes.

gclayjr wrote:I have a son who graduated from USU in 2008 with a BS degree in Computer science. He returned here in SE Pennsylvania, and has never been able to find an entry level job in his field. He lives at home (pays rent) and works at Giant supermarkets. He has been careful with his money and has paid off his student loan, but I know he fears trying to start a family and is not pursuing marriage, not because of not wanting the responsibilities, but because he fears that he cannot properly fulfill the responsibilities of husband and provider.

I'm in almost the exact same situation. Finding jobs these days that can support a family is extremely difficult. The old adage, "Go find a job" may sound easier than it is in reality.

dauser wrote:Like the prophet said:

A little bit of socialism is like a little bit of cancer

Socialism isn't inherently evil, the United Order is an example of how a perfect socialist government could work. Everyone living within their means, providing for the people that are genuinely in need and need assistance.
Socialism is seen as an evil in the United States especially now because of the ways its attempting to be implemented. Socialism has worked well here in Canada with national healthcare system and even better in the Nordic countries with free post-secondary education. I agree though, people systematically living on welfare and food stamps is not the way we should be running society and is what gives Socialism its bad rep.

Sirocco wrote:Porn is free, marriage could and probably would ruin me. And I am not a gambling man.

I'm not saying I agree with this statement, but I definitely can see and understand why it is a popular mantra these days. Porn is seen a risk-free alternative. I would argue too that feminism and the feminist movement helped bring this on.

What a depressing thread. So glad I'm not a single man hoping for marriage. I'd have given up by now.

To be blunt, any man who would be afraid to marry because he's afraid of losing everything isn't good enough for me. I'm glad those men are out of the running.

There are always going to be problems. If it's not women using government force to get the upper hand on men, it's men using government force to get the upper hand on women. Sometimes circumstances are going to be better, sometimes worse, but they are never going to be ideal as long as you are living in this world.

Those who succeed are those who ignore all this gloom and doom talk and go forward with optimism. None of this is out of the ordinary. It's all part and parcel in this fallen world. Either bow your head and give up or rise to the challenge. Your choice.

Jezebel wrote:To be blunt, any man who would be afraid to marry because he's afraid of losing everything isn't good enough for me. I'm glad those men are out of the running.

Meili, men aren't afraid of losing everything, that's always been a possibility.

Men aren't going to risk losing everything for a relationship that is currently one-sided no matter what, to which the benefit very little, in many instances. As happily married as I am, I can empathize with them. Women today have been taught they are the boss, and those who don't think they are generally still withhold sex as a manipulation tactic. It's widespread. They want men to cook, work, care for the kids etc. etc.

So if men are going to do everything themselves anyway, and they don't even get sex half the time, there isn't enough benefit to justify the ever increasing risk. It's like a slot machine that takes 50% of a skim (pardon, I'm from Vegas), but only pays out 5%, 45% of the time. It's a guaranteed losing bet for half the men, and the other half have questionable returns (though some marriages are great.

So for them, the question is: Why risk anything, when they can do better on average without. That's why they don't get married.

I think that divorce rates being near 50% is a VERY big reason for people not getting married these days.

That is a misleading statistic. Fifty percent of marriages end in divorce but not 50% of couples. Many people divorce multiple times and that makes it look as if half of marriages end in divorce.

Jezebel wrote:To be blunt, any man who would be afraid to marry because he's afraid of losing everything isn't good enough for me...

A blanket statement like that seems kind of egotistical. Fear is one more human condition we all need to face and defeat. Unless you're completely without fear, to place yourself so high above everyone else seems a bit much.

I understand your point. However, you should also understand these feelings didn't come from a monster under the bed or from watching too many horror flicks. Just as some women have knee-jerk reactions to the evils of porn because they've been hurt by it, some men have equal reactions to the evils of divorce court because an OVERWHELMING majority of the time things will go mildly to horribly against the man regardless of the problems that led to divorce, in this country. Generally, in a divorce a man will just want to get free of a bad marriage, but a woman will want to get even (even if she's already ahead.)

If current reports in Time are correct then there are a lot more females than males in LDS culture looking for marriage. If you are single then sift through. Find which ones are shallow, obsessed with consumerism, would divorce you for looking at a naughty website, or who are (or could become) obese and avoid them at all costs. If they want kids they can take in a "Syrian refugee" guy and convert him (yeah, right), visit a sperm bank or just believe real hard that demographic reality does not exist.

Thinker wrote:Breaking up because of finances or church is ridiculous.

Agreed, unless it's a situation where one of those things is being used as a weapon against the other.

Dr. Laura once suggested just 3 justifications for divorce:
Abuse
Addiction
Affair

Abuse - I'll generally agree with this, though I have seen hen-pecked husbands and verbally degraded wives stick things out through phenomenal inner strength to make things work. Physical abuse? Lock the guy up forever. Or shoot him in self defense.

Addiction - To what? How bad? Is it causing damage and there's no hope for a cure? Too open ended. My wife has helped me through several different addictions.

Affair - This one can only be answered by the individual, but I would suggest that one lone, regretted, repented of affair should not be cause for divorce. I would hate to be married to someone that small-minded.

Fiannan wrote:...or who are (or could become) obese and avoid them at all costs...

Are you suggesting dismissing a potential mate because they're chubby? The thick ones cuddle better, trust me.

skmo wrote:

Fiannan wrote:...or who are (or could become) obese and avoid them at all costs...

Are you suggesting dismissing a potential mate because they're chubby? The thick ones cuddle better, trust me.

Obesity is not associated with health or reproduction. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuZhHfk1kfs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fiannan wrote:

skmo wrote:

Fiannan wrote:...or who are (or could become) obese and avoid them at all costs...

Are you suggesting dismissing a potential mate because they're chubby? The thick ones cuddle better, trust me.

Obesity is not associated with health or reproduction. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuZhHfk1kfs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I must admit, there must be a point you're inferring that I am missing.

skmo wrote:

Fiannan wrote:

skmo wrote:

Fiannan wrote:...or who are (or could become) obese and avoid them at all costs...

Are you suggesting dismissing a potential mate because they're chubby? The thick ones cuddle better, trust me.

Obesity is not associated with health or reproduction. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuZhHfk1kfs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I must admit, there must be a point you're inferring that I am missing.

What we as humans see as beauty is based on what traits are associated with survival and enhanced possibility at reproduction. Obesity is a negative variable with both.

Fiannan wrote:What we as humans see as beauty is based on what traits are associated with survival and enhanced possibility at reproduction. Obesity is a negative variable with both.

Tell that to Rubens. Or the huge numbers of women getting breast and/or butt implants.