LDS Freedom Forum

I frequently see people condemn Julie Rowe/Spencer(Pontius family)/Hector/anybody else for selling their Gospel related books for money. The problem here is that this can very well be priestcraft, preaching the Gospel for money.

At the same time, they praise General Authorities for their books. These men also sell their books for profit.

Nobody knows what Julie/Spencer(Pontius family)/Hector does with their money. For all you know, they donate it all to the homeless, or the the missionary fund.

Nobody also knows what is done with the profits from the books sold by General Authorities, everybody assumes it all goes to their stipend or the missionary fund. The church can do whatever it pleases with the money it has, and it has this in text on tithing slips.

Either way, I have seen many times the claim " They are servants of the Lord, so it's different, they are anointed servants it's different"

How is it different? Are General Authorites exempt from Priestcraft because of their titles?

How is it possible to see 2 people that do the exact same thing, and accuse one of priestcraft and praise the other?

Disclaimer* I do not give any opinion. I do not claim that anyone here commits priestcraft, that anyone is right or wrong. I don't claim that Thomas Monson made a mistake or that Julie Rowe is a prophet.

I speak only of this principle and the unfair treatment of those who aren't at the top of a hierarchy.

I think a big part of priestcraft is using anything other than the Spirit to conduct the work of building up the Kingdom of God. Having the Spirit avoids all priestcraft snares.

-Finrock

In 2 Nephi 26:29, we read: He commandeth that there shall be no priestcrafts, for, behold, priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion.

Julie set herself up as a light, not only for monetary gain but for the praise of the world. You cannot even compare her to the apostles and prophets. They do everything for the glory of God, never themselves, like Julie does.

Mcox wrote:In 2 Nephi 26:29, we read: He commandeth that there shall be no priestcrafts, for, behold, priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion.

Julie set herself up as a light, not only for monetary gain but for the praise of the world.

That's your opinion.

Priestcraft: Setting yourself up as a light to be followed by the masses, looking for glamour and popularity. Some people can be deluded into thinking that the prophets of today practice priestcraft because so many people like to follow the prophets, buy their books, etc, or when found in a restaurant in Utah, everybody within visual range congregates where the poor apostle or prophet is eating.

While they are quite famous to millions of members, they are not famous for the other nearly 7 billion souls on this planet. So no, no priestcraft there.

Priesthood: Pointing people to the True Light--Jesus Christ. Not looking for support save for the welfare and being of those who believe the message preached about the true light Jesus Christ.

Unless like Hillary Clinton, you can get a 6 or 7 figure advance on a book that no one will ever read, there are costs involved in publishing and distribution. Unless you can cover the several thousand dollar printing cost up front and have a distribution channel. you may only get a small percentage of the sales. Even if you have a million seller and get a million bucks, a million bucks ain't what it used to be.

Writing a book is honest labor, even if it is pure fiction. Why put someone down for doing what they feel is laboring for the Lord? Even if the book is a fraud, it has value in helping the reader discern it for what it is.

If a GA worked as a farm laborer, would you accuse him of something evil? What is the difference? Writing a book is honest work.

We need to ask more often "Lord, is it I?" rather than trying to determine who else is, or is not, breaking a given commandment.

I don't think the Lord wants me to be overly concerned with other men (or women) and their standing.

Julie didn't need the money. She was a stay-at-home being supported by her husband. Who would willingly put their credibility, integrity, relationships, reputations, peace, etc. on the line to willingly be persecuted, mocked and even hated by some? Just look at her or listen to her talk - you seriously see this mother of 3 children sitting down to the table in the midst of her 24/7 mothering lifestyle and making up this stuff? And if someone is going to make it up and lie, they can't go out and speak because they are under a microscope to see if her story changes! She looks like and sounds like just a normal Mormon mom with much better things to do then desire to lead people astray by making up some crazy story! NDEs happen all the time, lots of books, lots of victims! She is an obedient daughter of God that was told to publish it, speak for one year, and to warn! There are many called to warn. And profit from books has paid for her travels.

I'd rather not focus on Thomas Monson and Julie Rowe, but on the subject of priestcraft.

How can 2 individuals do the exact same thing, then Person A is condemned for doing this thing and Person B is praised for the exact same thing.

This makes no sense to me. This is not loving your neighbor. This is finding fault with your neighbor. This is looking the other way and making excuses and justifying someone's actions.

I'm not trying to determine if any General Authority or Julie Rowe has committed priestcraft.

It's more about your mindset.

If you yourself condemn one person for priestcraft because this person sells a book for money, and then praise another and say it's "different" doing the exact same thing, that's hypocrisy. There's no way around it.

Stahura wrote:I frequently see people condemn Julie Rowe/Spencer(Pontius family)/Hector/anybody else for selling their Gospel related books for money. The problem here is that this can very well be priestcraft, preaching the Gospel for money.

At the same time, they praise General Authorities for their books. These men also sell their books for profit.

Nobody knows what Julie/Spencer(Pontius family)/Hector does with their money. For all you know, they donate it all to the homeless, or the the missionary fund.

Nobody also knows what is done with the profits from the books sold by General Authorities, everybody assumes it all goes to their stipend or the missionary fund. The church can do whatever it pleases with the money it has, and it has this in text on tithing slips.

Either way, I have seen many times the claim " They are servants of the Lord, so it's different, they are anointed servants it's different"

How is it different? Are General Authorites exempt from Priestcraft because of their titles?

How is it possible to see 2 people that do the exact same thing, and accuse one of priestcraft and praise the other?

Disclaimer* I do not give any opinion. I do not claim that anyone here commits priestcraft, that anyone is right or wrong. I don't claim that Thomas Monson made a mistake or that Julie Rowe is a prophet.

I speak only of this principle and the unfair treatment of those who aren't at the top of a hierarchy.

Actually, you DO give your opinion--you claim it is 'unfair treatment'--that's an opinion, just so you know.

To address your comments:

This is a non issue for me, I don't care if they sell books about their NDE's, people can sell books about whatever, I don't have to buy them.
I don't think I've ever accused them of 'priestcraft' for selling their books, but you seem stuck on this, you and/or others have tried to draw a comparison, trying to infer that we're attacking Julie for selling books when it's okay for General Authorities.

First off, it has nothing to do with the other--unless General authorities are selling books about their dreams and visions and predictions. Then, it might be a problem, but they don't do that. Even at that, if she feels right about selling her experience, then I'm not going to judge.

But energy healing is a completely different thing. Julie Rowe is an emotion code coach and I believe that her practice of selling her services over the phone for a group session with each participant paying 25.00 a session, IS priestcraft. I did see a while ago that she said she was not doing it anymore, but then she also said she wasn't going to speak anymore and she was on the radio with Kate Dalley a week later, so I don't know if she's changed her mind.

As much as I support Julie, I believe where she crossed the line, and hopefully has repaired it, is promoting her healing as a business. I am a business woman, and I have spiritual gifts. I do not have a problem with healers charging for their services. But she should have left it with the books, the year of speaking, and then let it be. I listened to her on Kate Dalley, and if she felt a need to defend herself and her experiences then so be it. But if I were her, I would let it drop. I would go back to obeying God - she has been begging and pleading to Him to not have to speak and to have to travel, so now her prayers have been answered and she needs to go back to her quiet life and leave it alone. If she continues, then I believe she is on her own, and has crossed a line. For now I will give her the benefit of the doubt. After 10 years of exposing secret combinations, my mission, I was finally released, heavy and great burdens taken from me. And last General Conference, last session, a sweet message from the Lord - "You are done"! A great feeling to know you have fulfilled your ordained mission. In my opinion, Julie has as well, and I hope that the Lord will sweetly release her and allow her to go back to just being a mom, continuing to prepare her family, and have peace.

ilovetherain wrote:Julie didn't need the money. She was a stay-at-home being supported by her husband. Who would willingly put their credibility, integrity, relationships, reputations, peace, etc. on the line to willingly be persecuted, mocked and even hated by some? Just look at her or listen to her talk - you seriously see this mother of 3 children sitting down to the table in the midst of her 24/7 mothering lifestyle and making up this stuff? And if someone is going to make it up and lie, they can't go out and speak because they are under a microscope to see if her story changes! She looks like and sounds like just a normal Mormon mom with much better things to do then desire to lead people astray by making up some crazy story! NDEs happen all the time, lots of books, lots of victims! She is an obedient daughter of God that was told to publish it, speak for one year, and to warn! There are many called to warn. And profit from books has paid for her travels.

How do you know this? There is no reason for us to believe she doesn't need the money, she was an emotion code coach, that job pays. Also, in her book, A greater tomorrow, she said that 'due to unemployment' she didn't feel she could go to the doctor for all her health problems and that they were under a lot of stress. It's been a while since then, and I assume things are better for them now, but I have no inside knowledge....do you?

And she's still speaking. She was on the Kate Dalley show just last week, I think it was. The tribune said she'd sold 40,000 books. That's pretty good for this genre.

And how do you know that the profit from her books paid for her travels? Do you have some evidence to make this statement?

AI2.0 wrote:

Stahura wrote:I frequently see people condemn Julie Rowe/Spencer(Pontius family)/Hector/anybody else for selling their Gospel related books for money. The problem here is that this can very well be priestcraft, preaching the Gospel for money.

At the same time, they praise General Authorities for their books. These men also sell their books for profit.

Nobody knows what Julie/Spencer(Pontius family)/Hector does with their money. For all you know, they donate it all to the homeless, or the the missionary fund.

Nobody also knows what is done with the profits from the books sold by General Authorities, everybody assumes it all goes to their stipend or the missionary fund. The church can do whatever it pleases with the money it has, and it has this in text on tithing slips.

Either way, I have seen many times the claim " They are servants of the Lord, so it's different, they are anointed servants it's different"

How is it different? Are General Authorites exempt from Priestcraft because of their titles?

How is it possible to see 2 people that do the exact same thing, and accuse one of priestcraft and praise the other?

Disclaimer* I do not give any opinion. I do not claim that anyone here commits priestcraft, that anyone is right or wrong. I don't claim that Thomas Monson made a mistake or that Julie Rowe is a prophet.

I speak only of this principle and the unfair treatment of those who aren't at the top of a hierarchy.

Actually, you DO give your opinion--you claim it is 'unfair treatment'--that's an opinion, just so you know.

To address your comments:

This is a non issue for me, I don't care if they sell books about their NDE's, people can sell books about whatever, I don't have to buy them.
I don't think I've ever accused them of 'priestcraft' for selling their books, but you seem stuck on this, you and/or others have tried to draw a comparison, trying to infer that we're attacking Julie for selling books when it's okay for General Authorities.

First off, it has nothing to do with the other--unless General authorities are selling books about their dreams and visions and predictions. Then, it might be a problem, but they don't do that. Even at that, if she feels right about selling her experience, then I'm not going to judge.

But energy healing is a completely different thing. Julie Rowe is an emotion code coach and I believe that her practice of selling her services over the phone for a group session with each participant paying 25.00 a session, IS priestcraft. I did see a while ago that she said she was not doing it anymore, but then she also said she wasn't going to speak anymore and she was on the radio with Kate Dalley a week later, so I don't know if she's changed her mind.

I like the way you put all this, thank you!

Stahura wrote:I frequently see people condemn Julie Rowe/Spencer(Pontius family)/Hector/anybody else for selling their Gospel related books for money. The problem here is that this can very well be priestcraft, preaching the Gospel for money.

At the same time, they praise General Authorities for their books. These men also sell their books for profit.

Nobody knows what Julie/Spencer(Pontius family)/Hector does with their money. For all you know, they donate it all to the homeless, or the the missionary fund.

Nobody also knows what is done with the profits from the books sold by General Authorities, everybody assumes it all goes to their stipend or the missionary fund. The church can do whatever it pleases with the money it has, and it has this in text on tithing slips.

Either way, I have seen many times the claim " They are servants of the Lord, so it's different, they are anointed servants it's different"

How is it different? Are General Authorites exempt from Priestcraft because of their titles?

How is it possible to see 2 people that do the exact same thing, and accuse one of priestcraft and praise the other?

Disclaimer* I do not give any opinion. I do not claim that anyone here commits priestcraft, that anyone is right or wrong. I don't claim that Thomas Monson made a mistake or that Julie Rowe is a prophet.

I speak only of this principle and the unfair treatment of those who aren't at the top of a hierarchy.

It may not be different from a logical point of view in some people's minds. But it is different as a result of the perception of what is culturally acceptable for the hierarchy, versus what is unacceptable for a layman. That may indeed be a double standard technically. But I submit to you that the true issue here is not what the hierarchy does, whether it is right or wrong, but rather, how we speak of the hierarchy, and how much time and energy we devote to trying to figure out if what the hierarchy is doing is justified or not. I'm not going to sit here and justify everything the hierarchy does. I don't have to. Because I know what has been asked of me, and so, I spend no energy on that. I'm speaking of what is in our power to do and to act of ourselves, and how we speak of these men, in spite of what may or may not be double standards to some. And so, I submit to you that it doesn't so much matter what these men do from an eternal point of view for our own souls, but rather, how we treat their names and what attitude we have toward them is what matters for us.

And so, for me, I openly criticize the priestcraft of Julie Rowe, Spencer, and Denver Snuffer and the rest. They, to me, are fair game for criticism. The brethren are not, in spite of whatever the facts happen to be on the matter. I will not lift up my heel against the Lord's anointed. On the other hand, I will indeed call out the people that are frauds like Julie Rowe that are lay characters for what they are, and will continue to do so.

EdGoble wrote:

Stahura wrote:I frequently see people condemn Julie Rowe/Spencer(Pontius family)/Hector/anybody else for selling their Gospel related books for money. The problem here is that this can very well be priestcraft, preaching the Gospel for money.

At the same time, they praise General Authorities for their books. These men also sell their books for profit.

Nobody knows what Julie/Spencer(Pontius family)/Hector does with their money. For all you know, they donate it all to the homeless, or the the missionary fund.

Nobody also knows what is done with the profits from the books sold by General Authorities, everybody assumes it all goes to their stipend or the missionary fund. The church can do whatever it pleases with the money it has, and it has this in text on tithing slips.

Either way, I have seen many times the claim " They are servants of the Lord, so it's different, they are anointed servants it's different"

How is it different? Are General Authorites exempt from Priestcraft because of their titles?

How is it possible to see 2 people that do the exact same thing, and accuse one of priestcraft and praise the other?

Disclaimer* I do not give any opinion. I do not claim that anyone here commits priestcraft, that anyone is right or wrong. I don't claim that Thomas Monson made a mistake or that Julie Rowe is a prophet.

I speak only of this principle and the unfair treatment of those who aren't at the top of a hierarchy.

It may not be different from a logical point of view in some people's minds. But it is different as a result of the perception of what is culturally acceptable for the hierarchy, versus what is unacceptable for a layman. That may indeed be a double standard technically. But I submit to you that the true issue here is not what the hierarchy does, whether it is right or wrong, but rather, how we speak of the hierarchy, and how much time and energy we devote to trying to figure out if what the hierarchy is doing is justified or not. I'm not going to sit here and justify everything the hierarchy does. I'm speaking of what is in our power to do and to act of ourselves, and how we speak of these men, in spite of what may or may not be double standards to some. And so, I submit to you that it doesn't so much matter what these men do from an eternal point of view for our own souls, but rather, how we treat their names is what matters for us.

And so, for me, I openly criticize the priestcraft of Julie Rowe, Spencer, and Denver Snuffer and the rest. They, to me, are fair game for criticism. The brethren are not, in spite of whatever the facts happen to be on the matter. I will not lift up my heel against the Lord's anointed. On the other hand, I will indeed call out the people that are frauds like Julie Rowe for what they are, and will continue to do so.

Fair enough!

Ed I have to ask. Are you an English Professor or something? You have a very educated/educated manner of speaking. Just curious

Stahura wrote: Fair enough!

Ed I have to ask. Are you an English Professor or something? You have a very educated/educated manner of speaking. Just curious

I'm just a lay author myself, of self-published books and blogs. People could call me a hypocrite because I am also an author. Nevertheless, I have no spiritual claims to make, or personal revelation to publish, or dreams to promote, or anything outside the hierarchy. I just have arm-chair research like any other apologist, theories that constantly get overturned and that have been overturned, that I retract when they are outdated.

I'm a computer programmer in my day job.

There are very few "Church Books" that I know of. They comprise the Standard Works, Jesus the Christ, and a handful of others that bear the copyright of the corporation of the First Presidency. Absolutely everything outside of this exclusive group is pure opinion Both good and bad) and should be treated as such.

Stahura wrote:I frequently see people condemn Julie Rowe/Spencer(Pontius family)/Hector/anybody else for selling their Gospel related books for money. The problem here is that this can very well be priestcraft, preaching the Gospel for money

Priestcraft is not being payed to teach the "gospel". As the gospel is truth light And good. Priestcraft is the teaching of a false gospel. Or mixing truth with lie or the learnings of men and calling it all truth.

Most churches do that including the lds church. Or I should say the members ignorantly do this.

The biggest culprit of priestcraft that there is would be public schools.
I can only imagine the gnashing of teeth and wailing that will happen at judgment day for all the lds who are teachers in that satanic system and all the parents who will be judged for sending there children to be taught there to learn the wisdom of men. Gods wisdom is not there or allowed to be there.
The public has no say in what is taught or who teaches or how much they have to pay into it. It's the most blatant example of forced priestcraft there is. And only the wisdom and learnings of men are taught there along with satans counterfeit gospel.

I think that both the lds leadership and others who are payed to preach and make money to teach the gospel or write books on gospel subjects are on a razors edge. Depending on their own knowledge "possible mixing of the learnings of men with truth". and how well they wrote and are interpreted will determine if they will be judged harshly or gloriously by our savior.

Ezra wrote:

Stahura wrote:I frequently see people condemn Julie Rowe/Spencer(Pontius family)/Hector/anybody else for selling their Gospel related books for money. The problem here is that this can very well be priestcraft, preaching the Gospel for money

Priestcraft is not being payed to teach the "gospel". As the gospel is truth light And good. Priestcraft is the teaching of a false gospel. Or mixing truth with lie or the learnings of men and calling it all truth.

Most churches do that including the lds church. Or I should say the members ignorantly do this.

The biggest culprit of priestcraft that there is would be public schools.
I can only imagine the gnashing of teeth and wailing that will happen at judgment day for all the lds who are teachers in that satanic system and all the parents who will be judged for sending there children to be taught there to learn the wisdom of men. Gods wisdom is not there or allowed to be there.
The public has no say in what is taught or who teaches or how much they have to pay into it. It's the most blatant example of forced priestcraft there is. And only the wisdom and learnings of men are taught there along with satans counterfeit gospel.

I think that both the lds leadership and others who are payed to preach and make money to teach the gospel or write books on gospel subjects are on a razors edge. Depending on their own knowledge "possible mixing of the learnings of men with truth". and how well they wrote and are interpreted will determine if they will be judged harshly or gloriously by our savior.

Is that not what the church says about priestcraft? I just looked it up real quick and it seems like the church considers preaching for money a form of priestcraft.

Anyways, I have noticed that pure doctrine is quenched at times in class. It's not right to quiet anybody who feels urged to share spiritual experiences in church.

samizdat wrote:Priestcraft: Setting yourself up as a light to be followed by the masses, looking for glamour and popularity.

Ezra wrote:Priestcraft is not being payed to teach the "gospel". As the gospel is truth light And good. Priestcraft is the teaching of a false gospel. Or mixing truth with lie or the learnings of men and calling it all truth.

I don't know where either of you get this from. Samizdat is closest to the definition in 2 Nephi 26:29, which states priestcraft is setting yourself up as a light to get gain. Under this definition somebody could be teaching nothing but truth but committing priestcraft.

Synonyms of craft include activity, occupation, profession, work, and line of work. Therefore, with a modern definition we could conclude that priestcraft is the occupation of being a priest.

Stahura wrote:I frequently see people condemn Julie Rowe/Spencer(Pontius family)/Hector/anybody else for selling their Gospel related books for money. The problem here is that this can very well be priestcraft, preaching the Gospel for money.

At the same time, they praise General Authorities for their books. These men also sell their books for profit.

Nobody knows what Julie/Spencer(Pontius family)/Hector does with their money. For all you know, they donate it all to the homeless, or the the missionary fund.

Nobody also knows what is done with the profits from the books sold by General Authorities, everybody assumes it all goes to their stipend or the missionary fund. The church can do whatever it pleases with the money it has, and it has this in text on tithing slips.

Either way, I have seen many times the claim " They are servants of the Lord, so it's different, they are anointed servants it's different"

How is it different? Are General Authorites exempt from Priestcraft because of their titles?

How is it possible to see 2 people that do the exact same thing, and accuse one of priestcraft and praise the other?

Disclaimer* I do not give any opinion. I do not claim that anyone here commits priestcraft, that anyone is right or wrong. I don't claim that Thomas Monson made a mistake or that Julie Rowe is a prophet.

I speak only of this principle and the unfair treatment of those who aren't at the top of a hierarchy.

What about the selling of scriptures?

The heads of Ephraim commit all manner of priestcrafts and whoredom until they get to the point they are finally ashamed, and fullfill Hosea 14:8.

Pray for Hosea 14:8 to be fullfilled soon.♡

The purpose of a business is to make money. The business utilizes principles to accomplish its purpose. There are schools that teach these principles. Running a business that makes money is a craft.

Here are some of the skills of the business craft: Committees, correlation meetings, brain storming, keeping statistics, doing studies, using logic/math, HR principles, etc.

The purpose of the gospel is to save souls.

If we are to teach the gospel we must teach by the spirit of truth. If it is by any other way it is not of God. When we supplant the Spirit with any craft in building up the Kingdom of God then we are practicing priestcraft.

A true priest will have the Spirit and therefore by having the Spirit their intent must be pure, because the Spirit doesn't dwell in unholy temples. If they are following the Spirit then it doesn't matter what they do, whether they correlate, brain storm, etc. because THEN it will be the will of God, the mind of God, and the right thing to do.

-Finrock

I don't know much of what Julie Rowe wrote and I have only read one GA book, and a few pages of another. From what I can tell, Julie Rowe wrote about an experience she had in which future events were revealed to her. So she is, according to her account, shown these future events and she writes a book that purports to tell the reader what will happen and sells the book for profit. I have yet to read one book from a GA in which he does the same for profit. As a matter of fact, they have a procedure which will approve if, what, how they talk about various subjects. All of their books, if I'm not mistaken, are just about doctrine and counsel.

Now I'm not against writing for profit, nor do I say that Julie Rowe is wrong nor that she's an apostate or anything like that. I'm not saying that she's lying nor that Apostles are exempt from priestcraft. I only want to ask this question for everybody, is writing a book claiming to tell you what will happen in the future, specific calamities or events, for profit, the same as writing a book that expounds on doctrine and seeks to counsel, based perhaps even on personal experience coming from years of having applied various principles in your life, for profit?

My opinion is, if a GA wants to write a book that shares his understanding on doctrine, or a specific principle, and sell it for profit, and this profit is mainly his desire to sustain himself and not to get rich, and these books don't become official teaching material or cannon for the church, then I don't see anything wrong with that. By official teaching material I mean that it isn't used as a manual for a class. I also don't see anything wrong with Julie Rowe writing a book and selling it for profit, even if all she wants is to get rich. So long as someone in church doesn't also try to use it as a manual for a class. But to lump books written by GA's in the same category as a book that claims to reveal exact future events is unfair in my opinion.

The scriptures say priestcrafts and pursuit of Babylon shall take place till Ephraim acknowledges their offence, so then, those things must needs take place, by these men, until they are ashamed, and acknowledge these offences, otherwise the scriptures written are not true.

But they are true and these things are taking place, where men are saying "Come follow me" which thing is forbidden of God, for this leads the people into captivity and into and on forbidden paths.

The only one able to say "Come follow me" is the Savior and Redeemer of this world Jesus Christ, and no other.♡