LDS Freedom Forum

sandman45 wrote:

“Everlasting covenant was made between three personages before the organization of this earth and relates to their dispensation of things to men on the earth. These personages ... are called God the first, the Creator; God the second, the Redeemer; and God the third, the Witness or Testator.”15 (https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-jo ... 81_000_006" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

looks like Joseph taught that we had at least 3 Gods that stood at the head of 3 of the dispensations.. One was the Creator, one the Redeemer, and the final one the Witness or Testator.

I would assume that the Head of the first dispensation, God the First (Creator) leads the rest? or do they all work as one as Christ said "I and my Father are one".. which would then mean those three are not led by christ.. right?

Interesting question, sandman. I've been pondering the usage of the terms "Lord" and "God", "The Eternal God," "The Father", and so on, as used in the scriptures. I began by thinking of Nephi, who would not have written, as is translated, "Lord" or "God," but rather "Eloi" or "Elohim" or "Adonai" or "Jwh". How to differentiate these terms? Joseph is not here to tell us what the words would have been in the original Hebrew adapted to Egyptian, so we are left to ponder. As I study the Bible, it is equally confusing. "The Spirit of the Lord" is upon various OT prophets and persons, but the "Spirit of God" is also frequently there. The idea that there are different persons of the Godhead actually at the head of the different dispensations is intriguing!

Yes I agree, very intriguing at the thought of the Godhead directly involved.. makes it more of a family matter does it not? The earth seems like a home for our family and the Father started the whole process. He is the Head of the human family or Father of All and started the first dispensation.. which would mean he Presides over the Earth and is the first to hold the keys of salvation for his family.

That quote also mentions him as the 'Creator' he Provides/creates a home and substance to sustain life for his family, and he Protects us... the 3 Ps!!!

Stahura wrote:How about Adam? Moses? Abraham? Joseph Smith?

Enoch. Joel. Jesus. John the Baptist. Samuel the Lamanite. Abinadi.

Franco wrote:

Stahura wrote:How about Adam? Moses? Abraham? Joseph Smith?

Prophets who stand at the head of any dispensation must be led by Jesus Christ, but that has no relevance to the fact that in this, the last dispensation, the dispensation of the fulness of times, Jesus Christ has directed us to follow His prophet on the earth.

I still don't understand how an unchanging God can change. The purpose of the restoration was to make a people who could stand in the presence of the Lord in this life. If they cannot do it, then they will die when Jesus and the hosts of heaven return. According to the scriptures, the fulness is entering into the Lord's presence (D&C, where it talks about Moses wanting the people to do that in his day). And it is not limited to LDS only. God is no respector of persons according to the Lectures on Faith. And the scriptures never teach that we should rely on a man (even a true prophet). In fact, it teaches explicitly against that.

The Gentiles (us) have lost the fulness, but a window of opportunity is open to us now. If we don't fall on our knees before God, repent of our ignorance, and follow Him (willing to open our eyes, willing to sacrifice any and all of our idols and lies), we will be among those who are ignited when He comes. We will be among those who cannot enter Zion when it is finally built.

I don't know about you, but this concerns me greatly. I want to know where I fall short. I want to come to my Lord. I want to know, if He is unchanging, why there have been so many changes made since Joseph Smith. I discard the teaching I got by osmosis, that we understand things today that Joseph didn't quite understand. The Lectures on Faith were retired from the scriptures because Joseph did not quite get it; he did not understand the Godhead, for example.

If my quest for the Lord leads me away from honoring and applauding mere men who hold the title of president, prophet, seer, and revelator (but, except for David Haight, in my lifetime have never recounted seeing the Lord when they spoke in general conference), then it does. My Lord is my God. He truly employs no servant at the gate. He truly has prophets who teach and expound and lead us to see His face and touch His hands. It is up to me to discern which prophets have been sent from the face of the Lord and which prophets have been sent by tradition, men, themselves, or vain imaginations.

I'm not saying you follow a false prophet, Tony. But I do disagree with most of your black and white statements and conclusions. I am concerned that you might wake up, too late, to what you are actually teaching.