LDS Freedom Forum

I recently listened to a pod cast by BIll Reel, who I find fairly objective in his thought process. It's a good pod cast.

He suggests that the following D&C 1:30:

30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually

... is about what we call the collective church or the individual church. The collective "church" is the entire realm of God's program, and encompasses all those who are called of God, over time, to do His work, in our out of the restored gospel. They each have a roll to play, and this is what is meant by His "true church" on the face of the whole earth. The individual church, is the LDS restored gospel that is a part of this revelation.

Here is why I find that very insightful. The LDS church doesn't have *all* the truth, we don't even have all the keys. What is true, always, is Gods entire kingdom, and who all He invites to take a role is 100% true, because He is the keeper of that truth. The LDS church (individually singled out in His kingdom) has a vital role to play, but because it is led by men (and women), and their agency, it can be not true in some things.

Note: this doesn't bother my testimony of the role of the restored gospel and the church. This line if thinking is very inclusive, and allows, I think, for a greater understanding and role that LDS peoples play, and the roles of others, now, in the past and future.

What are your thoughts?

Interesting point of view. I've never seen anybody talk about the difference between the two. I'd like to see somebody else comment on this

Jesus Christ told Joseph Smith that all the creeds of other churches “were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that ‘they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.’”

The Prophet Joseph Smith stated, “All men are liars who say they are of the true Church without the revelations of Jesus Christ and the Priesthood of Melchizedek, which is after the order of the Son of God.

“When men come out and build upon other men's foundations, they do it on their own responsibility without authority from God; and when the floods come and the winds blow, their foundations will be found to be sand, and their whole fabric will crumble to dust . . . . I have got all the truth which the Christian world possessed and an independent revelation in the bargain, and God will bear me off triumphant,” which clearly means no one can speak a truth that is not found in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

zionminded wrote:Here is why I find that very insightful. The LDS church doesn't have *all* the truth, we don't even have all the keys. What is true, always, is Gods entire kingdom, and who all He invites to take a role is 100% true, because He is the keeper of that truth. The LDS church (individually singled out in His kingdom) has a vital role to play, but because it is led by men (and women), and their agency, it can be not true in some things.

Missionaries like to use the analogy that other churches have a few keys on the piano. And with those few keys they are able to make some beautiful music. But only the LDS church has all 88 keys, and therefore the capacity to play all beautiful music.

I find this analogy to be particularly apt, in light of the fact that the piano is also limited in many important ways. The piano cannot reproduce the quarter tone and micro tone scales commonly used in music from the Middle East, for example. (Technically, even a lowly slide whistle can produce more notes than a piano, on the principle that between any two points on a line there are infinitely many points.) There is plenty of beautiful music out there which is beyond the piano's grasp.

It's tempting to believe that just because we have more, we must have all there is. But there always seems to be something else in heaven or earth that is not dreamt of in our philosophy.

LDS church does not have all truth nor All the keys.. I guarantee you that there are keys we do not even know exist and a lot of truth that we will never fully know until after this mortal life..

This also gives a new cast to the condemnation of the Church, "speaking collectively and not individually." If you follow your line of reasoning, Sandman, the Church collectively (all Christianity/organized religion) is under condemnation for failing to take the Book of Mormon seriously. We, as Latter-day Saints, are then, not culpable for this--we take the Book of Mormon seriously and study and ponder it, therefore, as an individual church, the Lord was not speaking to us--is that your thought, Sandman?

No I was meaning there are Keys and Truths that are not meant for mortals, or there is no way we will live long enough to receive a fullness in this life.

I think it will be revealed and given after the resurrection (keys that is... need a body to receive ordinances and priesthood etc.).

More truth maybe be revealed while we are here and after this life (spirit world and the eternal worlds)

Are you sewing the seeds of apostasy or are you rationalizing not being in harmony with the Church?

The Dispensation of the Fullness of Times is the restoration of all things to man. All the keys that can be held by mortal man are held by the President of the Church and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

Using weasel words to make the claim that those outside the LDS Church are doing God's will and that the LDS Church is not 100% true is using pettifoggery to make your underlying digs. It doesn't make your rationalizations true and no, the angels recording your statements aren't happy.

Franco wrote:Jesus Christ told Joseph Smith that all the creeds of other churches “were an abomination in his sight;

Franco's quotes are right on the money.

The only people that will enter the Celestial kingdom of God are those that have been valiant in the testimony of Jesus. No one will be judged to have been valiant in the testimony of Jesus if they have not also been valiant in the testimony of God's kingdom and God's servants the prophets.

People who run around claiming that all the truth isn't in the Lord's kingdom, which is the LDS Church, and that you can come to God some other way....well...is just fooling themselves. The judgement isn't a negotiation. You will receive the reward of those that didn't have a testimony of God's kingdom. You get the reward of those that didn't believe all the words of the Lord.

Anyways.... *shrug*

Stourme wrote:Are you sewing the seeds of apostasy or are you rationalizing not being in harmony with the Church?

The Dispensation of the Fullness of Times is the restoration of all things to man. All the keys that can be held by mortal man are held by the President of the Church and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

Using weasel words to make the claim that those outside the LDS Church are doing God's will and that the LDS Church is not 100% true is using pettifoggery to make your underlying digs. It doesn't make your rationalizations true and no, the angels recording your statements aren't happy.

Franco wrote:Jesus Christ told Joseph Smith that all the creeds of other churches “were an abomination in his sight;

Franco's quotes are right on the money.

The only people that will enter the Celestial kingdom of God are those that have been valiant in the testimony of Jesus. No one will be judged to have been valiant in the testimony of Jesus if they have not also been valiant in the testimony of God's kingdom and God's servants the prophets.

People who run around claiming that all the truth isn't in the Lord's kingdom, which is the LDS Church, and that you can come to God some other way....well...is just fooling themselves. The judgement isn't a negotiation. You will receive the reward of those that didn't have a testimony of God's kingdom. You get the reward of those that didn't believe all the words of the Lord.

Anyways.... *shrug*

Those that will inherit the Kingdom of God are those who's garments were washed white through the blood of the Lamb as a result of their broken heart and contrite spirit and faith exhibited throughout their life.
I know people who are "TBM's" that have had incredible experiences, have had the baptism of Fire and wonderful revelations.
I also know people who don't believe the current leaders are true apostles and prophets, and they too experienced the baptism of Fire and have received wonderful revelations.
I have experienced this and I find myself in the middle. I don't know if our leaders are true messengers, but I hope they are while still accepting the possibility that they may not be.

Clearly their opinion of God's servants didn't determine whether they were born again or not. If it matters not when we are born again, why would it bar you from entering the kingdom of God?

Stourme wrote:Are you sewing the seeds of apostasy or are you rationalizing not being in harmony with the Church?

The Dispensation of the Fullness of Times is the restoration of all things to man. All the keys that can be held by mortal man are held by the President of the Church and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

Using weasel words to make the claim that those outside the LDS Church are doing God's will and that the LDS Church is not 100% true is using pettifoggery to make your underlying digs. It doesn't make your rationalizations true and no, the angels recording your statements aren't happy.

Franco wrote:Jesus Christ told Joseph Smith that all the creeds of other churches “were an abomination in his sight;

Franco's quotes are right on the money.

The only people that will enter the Celestial kingdom of God are those that have been valiant in the testimony of Jesus. No one will be judged to have been valiant in the testimony of Jesus if they have not also been valiant in the testimony of God's kingdom and God's servants the prophets.

People who run around claiming that all the truth isn't in the Lord's kingdom, which is the LDS Church, and that you can come to God some other way....well...is just fooling themselves. The judgement isn't a negotiation. You will receive the reward of those that didn't have a testimony of God's kingdom. You get the reward of those that didn't believe all the words of the Lord.

Anyways.... *shrug*

So mother Teresa, was she doing Gods work? What about Joseph Smith's parents BEFORE the restoration. Were they involved in following the spirit and doing Gods work to be in that place at that time, and do their part? What about some of our founding fathers, who were guided by angels and followed the spirit, were they doing Gods work?

Gods work is HUGE HUGE HUGE, it requires many to play a roll.. of this God is happy, it is perfect.

No, we don't hold all the keys. Do we have the keys of resurrection? what about the keys to create a world?

Yes, that is the requirement for the CK, but many will obtain it. Your view of the CK is very limited, of a god who hates, not from a god who loves. Just saying.

zionminded wrote:
So mother Teresa, was she doing Gods work? What about Joseph Smith's parents BEFORE the restoration. Were they involved in following the spirit and doing Gods work to be in that place at that time, and do their part? What about some of our founding fathers, who were guided by angels and followed the spirit, were they doing Gods work?

Gods work is HUGE HUGE HUGE, it requires many to play a roll.. of this God is happy, it is perfect.

Point taken. However...

Joseph Smith's parents fully embraced the gospel and were baptized DURING the restoration. Many of the Founding Fathers appeared to a prophet in the temple and demanded their work to be done for them. I don't know about Mother Theresa, but I'm guessing hers was a similar story to the others. Just saying. ;)

zionminded wrote:

Stourme wrote:
The Dispensation of the Fullness of Times is the restoration of all things to man. All the keys that can be held by mortal man are held by the President of the Church and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

No, we don't hold all the keys. Do we have the keys of resurrection? what about the keys to create a world?

As you'll note he said "All the keys that can be held by mortal man" not that we have every single key period. Unless you know of some mortal man who holds those keys you mentioned? I'd be interested to find out more if you do...

Onsdag wrote:

zionminded wrote:
So mother Teresa, was she doing Gods work? What about Joseph Smith's parents BEFORE the restoration. Were they involved in following the spirit and doing Gods work to be in that place at that time, and do their part? What about some of our founding fathers, who were guided by angels and followed the spirit, were they doing Gods work?

Gods work is HUGE HUGE HUGE, it requires many to play a roll.. of this God is happy, it is perfect.

Point taken. However...

Joseph Smith's parents fully embraced the gospel and were baptized DURING the restoration. Many of the Founding Fathers appeared to a prophet in the temple and demanded their work to be done for them. I don't know about Mother Theresa, but I'm guessing hers was a similar story to the others. Just saying. ;)

Not there salvation, their work and role.