LDS Freedom Forum

The spirit of man is immortal, meaning it will never die. Were it not for our Heavenly Father’s eternal plan of salvation and our Savior’s eternal sacrifice, man would not become immortal. We would forever be angels to the devil.

When President Joseph F. Smith related his vision of the dead in section 138 of the Doctrine and Covenants, he saw the “vast assembly” that “waited for their deliverance,” and he wrote, “For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage.”

Hence, we have a better understanding of Jacob’s words to the Nephites.

Jacob wrote:If the flesh should rise no more, our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God and became the devil to rise no more.

And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God and to remain with the father of lies in misery like unto himself.

But Christ rose from the dead and brought to pass the resurrection of all men, thus giving unto all men immortality.

For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Only by giving heed to all of His words, whether they be spoken by living prophets or dead prophets, can we receive eternal life.

When we refer to immortaility or eternal life, do we mean the sprit residing in an immortal body? I ask because those who followed Satan in the pre-existance will still exist for all time they just can't recieve a body. Is that correct?

markharr wrote:When we refer to immortaility or eternal life, do we mean the sprit residing in an immortal body? I ask because those who followed Satan in the pre-existance will still exist for all time they just can't recieve a body. Is that correct?

There are talks from the Journal of Discourses that suggest that they will eventually be totally destroyed.
They say even the sons of perdition who resurrect will eventually suffer a total destruction.

Stahura wrote:

markharr wrote:When we refer to immortaility or eternal life, do we mean the sprit residing in an immortal body? I ask because those who followed Satan in the pre-existance will still exist for all time they just can't recieve a body. Is that correct?

There are talks from the Journal of Discourses that suggest that they will eventually be totally destroyed.
They say even the sons of perdition who resurrect will eventually suffer a total destruction.

I had never heard that before. So would that just be those spirits that didn't keep their first estate, and the sons of perdition, or does that include other kingdoms outside of the celestial kindom as well?

markharr wrote:

Stahura wrote:

markharr wrote:When we refer to immortaility or eternal life, do we mean the sprit residing in an immortal body? I ask because those who followed Satan in the pre-existance will still exist for all time they just can't recieve a body. Is that correct?

There are talks from the Journal of Discourses that suggest that they will eventually be totally destroyed.
They say even the sons of perdition who resurrect will eventually suffer a total destruction.

I had never heard that before. So would that just be those spirits that didn't keep their first estate, and the sons of perdition, or does that include other kingdoms outside of the celestial kindom as well?

This specific teaching applies only to sons of perdition and spirits who followed Satan.Only they will be destroyed completely. Of course, these teachings were only in the Journal of Discourses and aren't canon. I think Cleon Skousen also taught this, who learned it from Elder Widtsoe. I might be confusing 2 separate talks of his, it's been awhile.

There's a scripture in Nephi, I think it was Lehi who said it, but it does seem to suggest this as well.

Stahura wrote:

markharr wrote:

Stahura wrote:

markharr wrote:When we refer to immortaility or eternal life, do we mean the sprit residing in an immortal body? I ask because those who followed Satan in the pre-existance will still exist for all time they just can't recieve a body. Is that correct?

There are talks from the Journal of Discourses that suggest that they will eventually be totally destroyed.
They say even the sons of perdition who resurrect will eventually suffer a total destruction.

I had never heard that before. So would that just be those spirits that didn't keep their first estate, and the sons of perdition, or does that include other kingdoms outside of the celestial kindom as well?

This specific teaching applies only to sons of perdition and spirits who followed Satan.Only they will be destroyed completely. Of course, these teachings were only in the Journal of Discourses and aren't canon. I think Cleon Skousen also taught this, who learned it from Elder Widtsoe. I might be confusing 2 separate talks of his, it's been awhile.

There's a scripture in Nephi, I think it was Lehi who said it, but it does seem to suggest this as well.

It makes sense in the context of eternal life and mortality. I had always been confused about that, because you would hear scriptures that suggest that the followers of satan would dwell with him forever, and to me forever implies importality.

markharr wrote:When we refer to immortaility or eternal life, do we mean the sprit residing in an immortal body?

I've been taught that our Spirit won't reside in an immortal body, because as it stands right now, our bodies are tabernacles, and the Spirit dwells inside of it, just like a temple. When we resurrect, our Spirits will be connected with the elements. It's like they will be fused together in a way that's different from a Spirit filling a tabernacle.

markharr wrote: It makes sense in the context of eternal life and mortality. I had always been confused about that, because you would hear scriptures that suggest that the followers of satan would dwell with him forever, and to me forever implies importality.

It makes sense to me.

I don't think the church teaches this though. I remember being told at church one time that they will suffer forever with no end.
This is different from the hell that we will suffer in the world of Spirits. That hell does have an end for all.
But in regards to those that are cast out after being judged, I don't remember what the Church's official stance is, if it even has one. I just know that I've read that they will be destroyed completely.

Stahura wrote:

markharr wrote:When we refer to immortaility or eternal life, do we mean the sprit residing in an immortal body?

I've been taught that our Spirit won't reside in an immortal body, because as it stands right now, our bodies are tabernacles, and the Spirit dwells inside of it, just like a temple. When we resurrect, our Spirits will be connected with the elements. It's like they will be fused together in a way that's different from a Spirit filling a tabernacle.

You've been taught this? By whom?

AI2.0 wrote:
You've been taught this? By whom?

Why do you ask? It could be my Mission President, Stake President or Bishop. Would you accept my source if it wasn't a General Authority?

A tabernacle is put up for a time, and then taken down. We will all lay down these earthly tabernacles. God will rise us up. A spiritual body is different from an earthly body. Right now our spirit dwells inside a tabernacle. When we are risen, our spirit will be combined with element (D&C 93), not just placed inside the element.

The Father is a personage of spirit, glory and power. Jesus was a personage of Tabernacle. Joseph clearly tried to contrast the two. There's a difference, and the difference isn't just that these tabernacles are mortal and will decay.

Franco wrote:The spirit of man is immortal, meaning it will never die.

markharr wrote:
I had never heard that before. So would that just be those spirits that didn't keep their first estate, and the sons of perdition, or does that include other kingdoms outside of the celestial kindom as well?

"They will be decomposed, both soul and body, and return to their native element. [In other words, the elements of their resurrected bodies will be united with the resurrected earth]....They will be disorganized, and [it]will be as though they never had been, while WE will live and retain our identity, and contend against those principles which tend to death of dissolution....I want to preserve my identity, so that you can see Brigham in the eternal worlds just as you see him now." (Journal of Discourses, vol.)

"I asked Elder Widtsoe(General Authority, an Apostle): "If we always existed, where did we come from?" He said, "Outer Darkness." I asked, "How do we know that?"

He said, "The Lord has revealed what happens to the sons of perdition, and by tracking their disintegration we learn where WE came from. For example, Father Lehi was on his death bed when he addressed his two wicked sons, Laman and Lemuel. He said they were in danger of becoming sons of perdition. They had seen an angel and heard the voice of God reprimanding them for several hours. Lehi therefore said that if they continued to try to murder Nephi and refused to repent of their heinous sins, they would become sons of perdition. Then he told them what that meant. He said they would be stripped of their resurrected bodies, "BOTH BODY AND SOUL" [2 Nephi 1:22]"
-Cleon Skousen

Thoughts?

markharr wrote:When we refer to immortaility or eternal life, do we mean the sprit residing in an immortal body? I ask because those who followed Satan in the pre-existance will still exist for all time they just can't recieve a body. Is that correct?

Yes, you are correct. All men will be judged and receive a kingdom of glory, be it Celestial, Terrestrial, or Telestial. Satan and his angels, those angels who followed Satan and never received a body, will remain in hell for eternity along with the sons of perdition.

Only those who receive Celestial glory will inherit eternal life. There is no progression in the Terrestrial Kingdom and the Telestial Kingdom, but they are immortal because they can never die.

Franco wrote:

markharr wrote:When we refer to immortaility or eternal life, do we mean the sprit residing in an immortal body? I ask because those who followed Satan in the pre-existance will still exist for all time they just can't recieve a body. Is that correct?

Yes, you are correct. All men will be judged and receive a kingdom of glory, be it Celestial, Terrestrial, or Telestial. Satan and his angels, those angels who followed Satan and never received a body, will remain in hell for eternity along with the sons of perdition.

Only those who receive Celestial glory will inherit eternal life. There is no progression in the Terrestrial Kingdom and the Telestial Kingdom, but they are immortal because they can never die.

Why ignore the 2 quotes I posted? One from a Prophet of God and another from an Apostle?

As I don't have all the answers, and neither do you, I seek a conversation where we can learn, not just throw opinions at each other and say it's truth and close our minds .

Stahura wrote:

Franco wrote:The spirit of man is immortal, meaning it will never die.

markharr wrote:
I had never heard that before. So would that just be those spirits that didn't keep their first estate, and the sons of perdition, or does that include other kingdoms outside of the celestial kindom as well?

"They will be decomposed, both soul and body, and return to their native element. [In other words, the elements of their resurrected bodies will be united with the resurrected earth]....They will be disorganized, and [it]will be as though they never had been, while WE will live and retain our identity, and contend against those principles which tend to death of dissolution....I want to preserve my identity, so that you can see Brigham in the eternal worlds just as you see him now." (Journal of Discourses, vol.)

"I asked Elder Widtsoe(General Authority, an Apostle): "If we always existed, where did we come from?" He said, "Outer Darkness." I asked, "How do we know that?"

He said, "The Lord has revealed what happens to the sons of perdition, and by tracking their disintegration we learn where WE came from. For example, Father Lehi was on his death bed when he addressed his two wicked sons, Laman and Lemuel. He said they were in danger of becoming sons of perdition. They had seen an angel and heard the voice of God reprimanding them for several hours. Lehi therefore said that if they continued to try to murder Nephi and refused to repent of their heinous sins, they would become sons of perdition. Then he told them what that meant. He said they would be stripped of their resurrected bodies, "BOTH BODY AND SOUL" [2 Nephi 1:22]"
-Cleon Skousen

Thoughts?

I'm not sure if Cleon heard Elder Widtsoe correctly, but in any event, regarding where we come from, it is not doctrine. (Brigham Young was talking about the sons of perdition.)

This is doctrine: "The spirit and the body shall be reunited again in its perfect form; both limb and joint shall be restored to its proper frame, even as we now are at this time; and we shall be brought to stand before God, knowing even as we know now, and have a bright recollection of all our guilt." - Alma 11:43

"The soul shall be restored to the body, and the body to the soul; yea, and every limb and joint shall be restored to its body; yea, even a hair of the head shall not be lost; but all things shall be restored to their proper and perfect frame." - Alma 40:23

Jacob also explained it in 2 Nephi 9:12-14; "And this death of which I have spoken, which is the spiritual death, shall deliver up its dead; which spiritual death is hell; wherefore, death and hell must deliver up their dead, and hell must deliver up its captive spirits, and the grave must deliver up its captive bodies, and the bodies and the spirits of men will be restored one to the other; and it is by the power of the resurrection of the Holy One of Israel.

"O how great the plan of our God! For on the other hand, the paradise of God must deliver up the spirits of the righteous, and the grave deliver up the body of the righteous; and the spirit and the body is restored to itself again, and all men become incorruptible, and immortal, and they are living souls, having a perfect knowledge like unto us in the flesh, save it be that our knowledge shall be perfect.

"Wherefore, we shall have a perfect knowledge of all our guilt, and our uncleanness, and our nakedness; and the righteous shall have a perfect knowledge of their enjoyment, and their righteousness, being clothed with purity, yea, even with the robe of righteousness."

As for 2 Nephi 1:22, it reads, "That ye may not be cursed with a sore cursing; and also, that ye may not incur the displeasure of a just God upon you, unto the destruction, yea, the eternal destruction of both soul and body."

It is late. I will get back to you on what the "destruction" means.