LDS Freedom Forum

Franco wrote:

sandman45 wrote:

lundbaek wrote:What are the doctrines and words of prophets that have been very much rejected by members of the Church over the years ?

Adam God,
Patriarchal Marriage,
United Order..

I am sure there are more

There was no Adam-God doctrine, and Brigham Young never taught it. He never said any of the outrageous things attributed to him in the Journal of Discourses.

Jesus Christ himself did away with the United Order.

I am not sure what you mean by "Patriarchal Marriage."

Tony - since you weren't there, there's a 100% certainty you do not know what Brigham Young may or may not have taught. The JoD is a historical record that is likely closer to the truth than your anonymous internet assertions to the contrary. You might want to learn to qualify your opinions as such, rather than as FACT. it may help your outlook in general, too.

Franco,

Who taught you Jesus Christ did away with the United Order?

He taught it was for transgression, they were not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom.(D&C 105:4)

So they should wait for a little season----

To be prepared and taught more perfectly, by having experience, imparting as the "celestial law" required, which was by covenants and deeds that cannot be broken unto the poor, before "reside" was used to build temples or purchase lands for the public benifit of the members.

And herein is a grand key Franco- "For the redemption of Zion"--------------

"And this cannot be brought to pass until mine elders are endowed with power from on high."(D&C 105:11)

A wonderful question would be to ask, "How are the elders to be endowed with power from on high?"

Look to Peter and his fellow elder apostles-------

"And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.
And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possesed was his own; but they had all things common."

Sounds perfectly like they did as is the law to be embraced by the church of Section 42 and the foundation of the church of the living God of Section 70 of the Doctrine and Covenants.

So Jesus Christ never ever "did away" with his celestial law but taught go learn more perfectly and do this.

How long this wait for a little season, was up to the brethern.

But the celestial law remains the same, just waiting for the elders to seek for the endowment withheld of their own freewill.

Has not the "little season" been ever so long, even as is written of Ephraim being given the greater things of his law, but willingly walking away, considering it a strange thing, being an unwise son, staying ever so long in the place of the breaking forth of the children of God.
(See Hosea 13:12-13)

Is it not time for the sheep that hear the voice of the Good Shepherd to weep and howl and be in pain, and labor to bring forth this child, sounding the alarm as the LORD has asked?

This that the old men and husbandmen can give ear, consider and be ashamed as is written in Joel 1:1-11, and then atone and let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of the closet, as written in Joel 2:12-16?♡

sandman45 wrote:

lundbaek wrote:What are the doctrines and words of prophets that have been very much rejected by members of the Church over the years ?

Adam God,
Patriarchal Marriage,
United Order..

I am sure there are more

Would you please elaborate on your understanding of Patriarchal Marriage, I don't believe I've heard that specific phrase before.

Robert Sinclair wrote:Franco,

Who taught you Jesus Christ did away with the United Order?

He taught it was for transgression, they were not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom.(D&C 105:4)

So they should wait for a little season----

To be prepared and taught more perfectly, by having experience, imparting as the "celestial law" required, which was by covenants and deeds that cannot be broken unto the poor, before "reside" was used to build temples or purchase lands for the public benifit of the members.

And herein is a grand key Franco- "For the redemption of Zion"--------------

"And this cannot be brought to pass until mine elders are endowed with power from on high."(D&C 105:11)

A wonderful question would be to ask, "How are the elders to be endowed with power from on high?"

Look to Peter and his fellow elder apostles-------

"And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.
And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possesed was his own; but they had all things common."

Sounds perfectly like they did as is the law to be embraced by the church of Section 42 and the foundation of the church of the living God of Section 70 of the Doctrine and Covenants.

So Jesus Christ never ever "did away" with his celestial law but taught go learn more perfectly and do this.

How long this wait for a little season, was up to the brethern.

But the celestial law remains the same, just waiting for the elders to seek for the endowment withheld of their own freewill.

Has not the "little season" been ever so long, even as is written of Ephraim being given the greater things of his law, but willingly walking away, considering it a strange thing, being an unwise son, staying ever so long in the place of the breaking forth of the children of God.
(See Hosea 13:12-13)

Is it not time for the sheep that hear the voice of the Good Shepherd to weep and howl and be in pain, and labor to bring forth this child, sounding the alarm as the LORD has asked?

This that the old men and husbandmen can give ear, consider and be ashamed as is written in Joel 1:1-11, and then atone and let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of the closet, as written in Joel 2:12-16?♡

Again Franco,

The LORD is only waiting for the elders to of their own freewill do this.♡

butterfly wrote:

sandman45 wrote:

lundbaek wrote:What are the doctrines and words of prophets that have been very much rejected by members of the Church over the years ?

Adam God,
Patriarchal Marriage,
United Order..

I am sure there are more

Would you please elaborate on your understanding of Patriarchal Marriage, I don't believe I've heard that specific phrase before.

I wrote it incorrectly. I meant Patriarchal order of marriage... see this quote.

Now, briefly, the reason that the Lord, through the Prophet Joseph, introduced the doctrine of plural marriage, and the reason that the Church . . . has never and will never relinquish the doctrine of plural marriage, is simply this: the major purpose of the Church is to help man attain the great eternal destiny suggested in that couplet . . . plural marriage is the patriarchal order of marriage lived by God and others who reign in the Celestial Kingdom. As well might the Church relinquish its claim to the Priesthood as the doctrine of plural marriage. (Brigham Young and His Wives, by J. J. Stewart, p. 41)

Franco wrote:

sandman45 wrote:

lundbaek wrote:What are the doctrines and words of prophets that have been very much rejected by members of the Church over the years ?

Adam God,
Patriarchal Marriage,
United Order..

I am sure there are more

There was no Adam-God doctrine, and Brigham Young never taught it. He never said any of the outrageous things attributed to him in the Journal of Discourses.

Jesus Christ himself did away with the United Order.

I am not sure what you mean by "Patriarchal Marriage."

It was taught..Even McConkie admitted that to B.Y.U. associate professor Eugene England on Feb. 19, 1981 in a letter where he said

"Yes, President Young did teach that Adam was the father of our spirits, and all the related things that the cultists ascribe to him." (page 6 of McConkie's letter)"

Not just in the JOD but in a few of future presidents/apostles of the church wrote down what Brigham taught in their own personal journals..

There was also a Hymn that was changed.. look up the "Son's of Michael He Approaches" hymn. there were also poems written by Eliza R. Snow about Adam.. and the endowment has been changed quite a bit as well... pretty interesting stuff..

sandman45 wrote:

Franco wrote:

sandman45 wrote:

lundbaek wrote:What are the doctrines and words of prophets that have been very much rejected by members of the Church over the years ?

Adam God,
Patriarchal Marriage,
United Order..

I am sure there are more

There was no Adam-God doctrine, and Brigham Young never taught it. He never said any of the outrageous things attributed to him in the Journal of Discourses.

Jesus Christ himself did away with the United Order.

I am not sure what you mean by "Patriarchal Marriage."

It was taught..Even McConkie admitted that to B.Y.U. associate professor Eugene England on Feb. 19, 1981 in a letter where he said

"Yes, President Young did teach that Adam was the father of our spirits, and all the related things that the cultists ascribe to him." (page 6 of McConkie's letter)"

Not just in the JOD but in a few of future presidents/apostles of the church wrote down what Brigham taught in their own personal journals..

There was also a Hymn that was changed.. look up the "Son's of Michael He Approaches" hymn. there were also poems written by Eliza R. Snow about Adam.. and the endowment has been changed quite a bit as well... pretty interesting stuff..

I add my voice to this It was taught
It's easier to accept it than to look like a fool trying to justify it and say it wasn't.

Stahura wrote:

sandman45 wrote: .. and the endowment has been changed quite a bit as well... pretty interesting stuff..

I add my voice to this It was taught

What would be the best source for understanding how the endowment originally was and how it has been altered since?

butterfly wrote:

Stahura wrote:

sandman45 wrote: .. and the endowment has been changed quite a bit as well... pretty interesting stuff..

I add my voice to this It was taught

What would be the best source for understanding how the endowment originally was and how it has been altered since?

A lot of the stuff I read, I read a while ago and wasn't smart enough to write down the source.

In my opinion, its best to find non biased authors. They tend to have a more objective point of view. Members often call authors like this "Anti" when in all reality it's just documented history laid out in such a way that we can actually make sense of it.

I'll go through my pdf files and books and see if I can find a good source for you

Robert Sinclair wrote:This note of equality is a rainbow of melody that reaches and brings great joy to all the souls in heaven.♡

For some reason you never hear it played at General Conference as yet, except possibly once with Lorenzo Snow, who lamented the loss of it's sweet sound among the people.♡

Would be wonderful to hear this note played at the next coming April 2016 General Conference, a sound of great joy.♡

Hi robert
There is new breakthroughs in treatment for alhziemers. U should look into it
♡♡take care

Avocados, who knew.♡

Yes the seed is also edible, and loaded with nutrients.♡

Do not throw the seed of the avocado away anymore, but look up how to use this useful seed.♡

There is no greater doctrine of the Prophet, Seer,
Revelator, and Saviour Jesus Christ rejected, than the celestial law given unto the house of Ephraim, which Ephraim willingly walked away from.

Good to return to keep the law of equity and justice for all, of the freewill of the people.♡

All things common, a United Order, Zion upon the face of this earth established once more among the people.♡

clairefromaus wrote:

Robert Sinclair wrote:This note of equality is a rainbow of melody that reaches and brings great joy to all the souls in heaven.♡

For some reason you never hear it played at General Conference as yet, except possibly once with Lorenzo Snow, who lamented the loss of it's sweet sound among the people.♡

Would be wonderful to hear this note played at the next coming April 2016 General Conference, a sound of great joy.♡

Hi robert
There is new breakthroughs in treatment for alhziemers. U should look into it
♡♡take care

That's ^^^ simply cruel, and that's coming from someone who has a cruel streak (yours truly, of course).

Franco wrote:There was no Adam-God doctrine, and Brigham Young never taught it. He never said any of the outrageous things attributed to him in the Journal of Discourses.

Here's a hint. If there were even a shred of doubt about Young having taught Adam-God, that would be the line of every apologist and apostle who has since tried to reconcile the issue with current doctrine. The fact that none of them take this approach should tell you how good the evidence is that Young taught it. Take Bruce R. McConkie, for example:

BRM wrote:Yes, President Young did teach that Adam was the father of our spirits, and all the related things that the [polygamous] cultists ascribe to him. This, however, is not true. He expressed views that are out of harmony with the gospel. But, be it known, Brigham Young also taught accurately and correctly, the status and position of Adam in the eternal scheme of things. What I am saying is that Brigham Young, contradicted Brigham Young, and the issue becomes one of which Brigham Young we will believe. The answer is we will believe the expressions that accord with the teachings in the Standard Works.

I think you'll agree that isn't a very strong argument. It doesn't make Young look very good, and it doesn't cast McConkie and his church in a very positive light, either, if that's the best they can come up with. And yet McConkie would rather his name be associated forever with the above, than with the absurd notion of a flat denial, against all evidence to the contrary, that Young ever taught Adam-God.

Obrien wrote:

clairefromaus wrote:

Robert Sinclair wrote:This note of equality is a rainbow of melody that reaches and brings great joy to all the souls in heaven.♡

For some reason you never hear it played at General Conference as yet, except possibly once with Lorenzo Snow, who lamented the loss of it's sweet sound among the people.♡

Would be wonderful to hear this note played at the next coming April 2016 General Conference, a sound of great joy.♡

Hi robert
There is new breakthroughs in treatment for alhziemers. U should look into it
♡♡take care

That's ^^^ simply cruel, and that's coming from someone who has a cruel streak (yours truly, of course).

Well if hes not insane then why does he act like it. When people r discussing a topic he will post 'be ye equal in temporal things........ etc when it is completely unrelated to the conversation. People find it annoying and its not just me there was a thread about rob and his posts. I find them condescending like is he my accountant...no hes not he has no idea of some of the financial sacrifices i have and others have made yet he goes on and on about it. And i say this grudgingly

Insane is a strong word.

If you don't like it, ignore it. Are things different in aus - you NEVER read or hear something you disagree with?

In the days of Enoch the word some of the people used to describe him is- "A wild man hath come among us!"

Many were offended because of him.

I do not think Enoch meant to offend but to help the people of the land, as I do as well.

For it came to pass in his days he continued on, until he built a city that was called the city of Holiness, even Zion.

I helped with the planning and building up of a city in Southern California called Santa Clarita, California many years ago, but I saw to have a city of righteousness and justice, people in their hearts must care for one another to be equal in their temporal things and this not grudgingly. So if she who would call me "mentally off" is suffering financially, she is one whom I would that she would be given outright a home and land as well as food and raiment if needed, debt free, from the super wealthy that can easily afford to do, as I felt was easy to help others when I was putting deals together long ago that paid over a million dollars for a single deal. I did give away all we had at one time and although I had planned on paying my taxes with a deal I was working on that would pay me over 2 million dollars, it fell through and I ended up owing the IRS and the state of California together over one million dollars in taxes with penalties and all. I was eventually forgiven but not until years down the road. I have pushed for people to be able to give homes directly to the poor and not have to pay a penalty nor have the poor pay a tax penalty for such a gift.

Religious organizations like the church swallow up donations of homes and large tracts of land, never imparting said homes and lands back out to the poor and needy of the church.

I thought well if people could give directly to the poor and get a deduction instead of a penalty, and the poor did not have to pay a penalty as well, there might not be over 18,600,000 vacant homes here in America alone. Enough to give to every homeless person in America six houses each it has been written.

Just need to amend the tax code, which Senator Orrin Hatch and Senator Ron Wyden could pursue and do, if enough people ask for these changes of "Ordinances of Justice" to be in place. Section 2522 Charitable and similar gifts, of the tax code just needs a 5th item added, to the current 4, that one can give directly to the poor tax free, a covenant and a deed that cannot be broken, on home and/or land sufficient for their support.

Not as difficult as one might think "if" the true desire to so do was present.

Getting people into homes with "equity" can help any economy grow and prosper in the land according to the word of God.

Rentals to the poor, where they can faithfully pay 30-50 years or even all their lives, and receive not even one single "penny" of equity is an abomination in the land, and such policies in the government housing "projects" needs to be amended as well where these poor receive "equity" in these promised lands of America, if we wish to prosper according to the word of God.♡

Just think if every member owned outright their home, and Thomas Monson following the instructions, of the Prophet Seer and Savior Jesus Christ to so do, helped make this happen over time, we would be a light to the Jews and the United States of America, and all the nations of the earth, Muslims, Buddists, ect, how by the freewill of the people it can be accomplished, peace and goodwill, with a powerful leader like unto Enoch and Melchizedek, doing the things Jesus Christ instructs to do, for your day and time upon this earth.

Today, it is to see that covenants and deeds of title, that cannot be taken back, or broken, are imparted as stewardships, sufficient for the support of the families of the poor, from his storehouse treasury, and a call out out to the rich and learned the wise and noble to assist with this wedding feast of fat things for the poor, as a gift to the Lamb of God, the bridegroom promised to come forth.

Then that $500-1,200.00 rent payment, the poor make each month, could be given into the storehouse treasury of the LORD for other poor to be given homes, or build buildings of worship, if it was surplus they had, but as a minimum every member should feel they have a safe place of sanctuary to live and pray and work from.

This is the doctrine of Jesus Christ and his celestial law to be hearkened unto, and it is his word that there is more than enough and to spare to do this.

Good to cry out, and howl, and sound the alarm, that the old men might give ear to these things, since they are not coming up with these thoughts on their own, as heads of Ephraim so do.

They need your help.

Please give it to them, by blowing the trumpet, and making some noise, sounding the alarm, about the loftiness and perversion of equity of the storehouse treasury of the LORD.

You will be glad at the judgement bar of Jesus Christ if you so do.♡

clairefromaus wrote:

Well if hes not insane then why does he act like it. When people r discussing a topic he will post 'be ye equal in temporal things........ etc when it is completely unrelated to the conversation. People find it annoying and its not just me there was a thread about rob and his posts. I find them condescending like is he my accountant...no hes not he has no idea of some of the financial sacrifices i have and others have made yet he goes on and on about it. And i say this grudgingly

Robert is certainly not insane. Redundant? Sure. From my perspective it seems simple. Robert sees people trying to treat symptoms of an illness when he believes that if we addressed this issue it would cure the illness.

Robert Sinclair wrote: celestial law given unto the house of Ephraim, which Ephraim willingly walked away from.

Germain and important point Robert makes here. Ephraim has not been restored to living celestial law which means it is impossible to be a Zion people building up Zion. It is hard to find a better example of Latter Day Saints ignoring Doctrine and Prophets.

Edit: I believe Robert is very aware of others personal sacrifices which is another reason this subject is so important to him.

Again, please give the leaders of Ephraim the help they need of hearing the weeping and howling and sounding of the alarm, and blowing the trumpet in Zion of the loftiness and perversion of equity in the vineyard of the LORD, especially from the storehouse treasury of the LORD, which no man is to call his own, but all members are to have equal claim upon, by the word and law of God.♡

I know what it is like to feel like the Church leadership at all levels are ignoring a principle of the gospel that I and some others consider important. And I know from some years of experience how difficult it is to get a straight answer as to why the particular principle is being ignored, and how disappointing and frustrating it is to be unable go get others to join in with you in your cries for action on the matter. I know how it feels to be told that the Prophet is not promoting that principle or program at this time; that is is not a prophetic priority. It is difficult to not get angry, prideful, and self-righteous. I'd be the last person to advise you to give it up.

No reason to get upset or angry, for all these things are foretold would happen throughout the "One Stick" written and given unto the House of Ephraim.

Just need to see these things written and seek the counsel of the Good Shepherd as to what to do.

The voice of the Good Shephered Jesus Christ calls out to weep and howl and sound the alarm, and blow the trumpet in Zion, that the old men and husbandmen of the vineyard might give ear, and consider the condition of the vineyard upon their watch, and be ashamed. Then acknowledge this offence of loftiness and perversion of equity, and then atone with broken hearts and contrite spirits, with fasting and prayer, calling a solemn assembly, and seeking to bring the bride out of the closet, as in Hosea 14:8, and as is written in the Book of Joel and Isaiah, that the bridegroom may come forth saying, "Here I am", even as he has promised to so do.♡

Do u even pay tithing rob

Directly to Jesus Christ.♡

clairefromaus wrote:Do u even pay tithing rob

This sounds like an internet meme that goes like this: "do you even lift bro?"

People say this to be condescending or make fun of others and how small they are.