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Re: We can't see our own membership file?
Posted: October 7th, 2015, 7:44 pm
by Obrien
freedomforall wrote:For the record, I highly dislike breaking bad news to everyone...let's look at the scriptures, shall we?
D&C 1:3
3 And the rebellious shall be pierced with much sorrow; for their iniquities shall be spoken upon the housetops, and their secret acts shall be revealed.
Luke 12:3
3 Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets (places of privacy) shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.
All of our secret, unholy, acts will be made known abroad. So what is written in our church records, not repented of, will not stay secret. Unless someone can come up with a different message from these verses.
Agree, FFA, all the more reason for the big 18 (first presidency, Q12 and presiding bishopric) to come clean on finances. I have no interest in having their secret deeds shouted from the rooftops - I'd rather have them feed the hungry, clothe the naked etc with tithing and offerings...
Re: We can't see our own membership file?
Posted: October 7th, 2015, 7:52 pm
by Obrien
Franco wrote:Obrien wrote:Newsflash Tony - Jesus Christ doesn't need any money. I believe He uses it as a tool, to gauge our hearts.
Everything belongs to Christ. Saying that He "doesn't need" the money that is already His explains why some people covet what is not theirs and do not pay their tithing.
I rather suspect Jesus has no interest in federal reserve notes at all, other than the lengths people will go through to get and keep them.
I suppose if any of us have a savings account or a retirement plan, Tony believes we are coveting that which is not ours.
Although I disagree with WHAT you said, I appreciate the fact it is in regular English, and not a quote you've strained to the limits of credulity to use as a mental bludgeon.
Re: We can't see our own membership file?
Posted: October 7th, 2015, 7:55 pm
by Zathura
Obrien wrote:
Although I disagree with WHAT you said, I appreciate the fact it is in regular English, and not a quote you've strained to the limits of credulity to use as a mental bludgeon.
hahah.. great way to put it.
Re: We can't see our own membership file?
Posted: October 7th, 2015, 8:43 pm
by skmo
Obrien wrote:I have no interest in having their secret deeds shouted from the rooftops - I'd rather have them feed the hungry, clothe the naked etc with tithing and offerings...
The only reason one would be naked and hungry in this country is because they're children or they're trying to make a political statement. I have no desire for the church to use funds to supply lazy people with things they should be providing on their own. I like Benjamin Franklin's take on it: “I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.”
Re: We can't see our own membership file?
Posted: October 7th, 2015, 8:48 pm
by Matchmaker
Years ago, I was disfellowshipped and excommunicated for serious transgressions, which I confessed willingly to my Bishop and his court. It took many years for me to work my way back into the Church.
A previous Bishop mentioned to me recently that information regarding the problems of my past are still in my Church file today. He confirmed what I had always suspected - that every Bishop I had had in the last 30 years, and I have had many, if they were curious enough to read the extra information on me, knew I had been a scarlet woman. Believe me, this information affects my self esteem.
Now I know how a felon feels who has paid for his crime by going to jail but continues to carry the title "felon" for the rest of his life, even after he gets out of jail.
Re: We can't see our own membership file?
Posted: October 7th, 2015, 8:55 pm
by Finrock
skmo wrote:I like Benjamin Franklin's take on it: “I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.”
King Benjamin's take is the right answer.
King Benjamin wrote: 16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.
17 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—
18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.
19 For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?
20 And behold, even at this time, ye have been calling on his name, and begging for a remission of your sins. And has he suffered that ye have begged in vain? Nay; he has poured out his Spirit upon you, and has caused that your hearts should be filled with joy, and has caused that your mouths should be stopped that ye could not find utterance, so exceedingly great was your joy.
21 And now, if God, who has created you, on whom you are dependent for your lives and for all that ye have and are, doth grant unto you whatsoever ye ask that is right, in faith, believing that ye shall receive, O then, how ye ought to impart of the substance that ye have one to another.
22 And if ye judge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your condemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God, to whom also your life belongeth; and yet ye put up no petition, nor repent of the thing which thou hast done.
23 I say unto you, wo be unto that man, for his substance shall perish with him; and now, I say these things unto those who are rich as pertaining to the things of this world.
24 And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give.
25 And now, if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, otherwise ye are condemned; and your condemnation is just for ye covet that which ye have not received.
26 And now, for the sake of these things which I have spoken unto you—that is, for the sake of retaining a remission of your sins from day to day, that ye may walk guiltless before God—I would that ye should impart of your substance to the poor, every man according to that which he hath, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and administering to their relief, both spiritually and temporally, according to their wants.
27 And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order.
King Benjamin testimony is true and it is the only right answer as to how we should treat the poor.
-Finrock
Re: We can't see our own membership file?
Posted: October 7th, 2015, 9:23 pm
by freedomforall
Obrien wrote:freedomforall wrote:For the record, I highly dislike breaking bad news to everyone...let's look at the scriptures, shall we?
D&C 1:3
3 And the rebellious shall be pierced with much sorrow; for their iniquities shall be spoken upon the housetops, and their secret acts shall be revealed.
Luke 12:3
3 Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets (places of privacy) shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.
All of our secret, unholy, acts will be made known abroad. So what is written in our church records, not repented of, will not stay secret. Unless someone can come up with a different message from these verses.
Agree, FFA, all the more reason for the big 18 (first presidency, Q12 and presiding bishopric) to come clean on finances. I have no interest in having their secret deeds shouted from the rooftops - I'd rather have them feed the hungry, clothe the naked etc with tithing and offerings...
The thing is, you're ranting on an open forum spewing accusations you can't prove, thus having no backing whatsoever, whereas we have assurance from many sources that the Church did not use one dollar of tithing money. Therefore it isn't the church leadership that needs to come clean. I, at the minimum, provided some evidence backing my assertion that cannot be refuted, only mocked and falsely articulated as untrue.
Re: We can't see our own membership file?
Posted: October 7th, 2015, 9:31 pm
by buffalo_girl
A previous Bishop mentioned to me recently that information regarding the problems of my past are still in my Church file today. He confirmed what I had always suspected - that every Bishop I had had in the last 30 years, and I have had many, if they were curious enough to read the extra information on me, knew I had been a scarlet woman. Believe me, this information affects my self esteem.
Why is that information currently in your Church records?
I would do what is needed to have it removed.
I have a friend who was disfellowshipped 40-some years ago for leaving her husband and sons when her husband in 'good standing' began teaching the teenage sons how to beat their mother. Her bishopric concluded that she was at fault and disfellowshipped
her!
When she remarried many years later, she and her convert husband were unable to go to the temple to be sealed because of this nonsense in her records. My friend's husband mustered the courage to write to the First Presidency. Within two weeks she was restored to full fellowship and she and her husband were able to go to the temple. A few years later, they became Ordinance Workers.
The problem with a 'lay' clergy is that there are too many idiots ignorantly using their leadership positions to 'grind upon' those who are already having to cope with excruciating personal sorrow and sins.
If a 'sinner' was happy doing wrong, he/she would certainly not go to the Bishop and spend time struggling to restore good standing in the Church.
The other part of the above story is that my friend's previous husband - after all those many years of his continued church activity
in the limelight - was serving as a Bishop in another state when her standing was restored.
Some Sinners are very good at presenting themselves in a virtuous light. Apparently, he never felt the need to confess any of
his sins!
knew I had been a scarlet woman. Believe me, this information affects my self esteem
Bless you, I certainly wouldn't let it. The LORD Jesus Christ
was born through a genetic line liberally sprinkled with colorful women!
Re: We can't see our own membership file?
Posted: October 7th, 2015, 9:40 pm
by Obrien
FFA - I'm not spewing accusations, I'm only reading their words very literally. The church claims "not one dollar of tithing money...etc". You THINK that means that no tithing was used... What the words actually say is that the church did not spend a single dollar on the mall project. If it wasn't a single dollar, could it have been 2 dollars of tithing money? If they spent 5 dollars of tithing money on the mall, they could state in all honesty "not a single dollar of tithing money..." and be technically correct. I always consider a statement very carefully when it says what someone DIDN'T DO. It's usually more accurate to state what you DID do, but there's a whole lot less wiggle room.
I'm not mocking anyone - I've just been around lots of @#$ covering corporate types in my career, and the signs are kinda obvious to the impartial observer.
Re: We can't see our own membership file?
Posted: October 7th, 2015, 9:42 pm
by freedomforall
skmo wrote:Obrien wrote:I have no interest in having their secret deeds shouted from the rooftops - I'd rather have them feed the hungry, clothe the naked etc with tithing and offerings...
The only reason one would be naked and hungry in this country is because they're children or they're trying to make a political statement. I have no desire for the church to use funds to supply lazy people with things they should be providing on their own. I like Benjamin Franklin's take on it: “I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.”
Good point, skmo. Obama says he's creating jobs, yet all the people have to do is either get on the phone or go to their mail box to get all the free benees from government...paid for buy to true workers that really can't afford it, and at some point quit working so they can join the freebee bandwagon. Just who are the poor? Working people struggling to make ends meet, or those doing nothing except asking where their next freebee is at and how to get it, while driving around in a new car?
Does God want to have people on welfare or learning self reliance? Does God expect the church to feed the poor, etc, or the people in the church to practice charity, not enabling?
Re: We can't see our own membership file?
Posted: October 7th, 2015, 9:49 pm
by Original_Intent
These are supposedly judges in Israel. If they have concerns, they should be conferring with the Lord regarding a person's standing, not their "history".
Re: We can't see our own membership file?
Posted: October 7th, 2015, 9:56 pm
by freedomforall
Obrien wrote:FFA - I'm not spewing accusations, I'm only reading their words very literally. The church claims "not one dollar of tithing money...etc". You THINK that means that no tithing was used... What the words actually say is that the church did not spend a single dollar on the mall project. If it wasn't a single dollar, could it have been 2 dollars of tithing money? If they spent 5 dollars of tithing money on the mall, they could state in all honesty "not a single dollar of tithing money..." and be technically correct. I always consider a statement very carefully when it says what someone DIDN'T DO. It's usually more accurate to state what you DID do, but there's a whole lot less wiggle room.
I'm not mocking anyone - I've just been around lots of donkey covering corporate types in my career, and the signs are kinda obvious to the impartial observer.
Then your job is to find one shred of evidence that even one penny was used.
Question: Aren't tithing funds from "long ago" ultimately the source of all current Church funds?
A review of the history of such funds and Church involvement in business suggests that this is not the case
Some have wondered whether tithing funds (even from long ago) aren't the "ultimate" source of the funds used in the redevelopment. A review of the history of such funds and Church involvement in business suggests that this is not the case.
In the first place, it should be remembered that to mix tithing (tax-deductible) funds with taxable funds from other sources would cause major issues with the IRS, something which the Church would be unlikely to risk--both because to do so would be dishonest, and because the legal and public-relations consequences would be severe, even if they were inclined to do so.
The church has a number of for-profit businesses including real estate, ranching and agriculture, media, mercantile, etc. They have carefully invested for over a century in order to have a good financial cushion in order not to be severely in debt as they were in the late 1890s-early 1900s, nor to be on the verge of financial distress as they were in the late 1950s-early 1960s from over-spending building church meeting houses and other church-related ventures and expenditures.
http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_ ... _Lake_City" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: We can't see our own membership file?
Posted: October 7th, 2015, 10:07 pm
by freedomforall
Matchmaker wrote:Years ago, I was disfellowshipped and excommunicated for serious transgressions, which I confessed willingly to my Bishop and his court. It took many years for me to work my way back into the Church.
A previous Bishop mentioned to me recently that information regarding the problems of my past are still in my Church file today. He confirmed what I had always suspected - that every Bishop I had had in the last 30 years, and I have had many, if they were curious enough to read the extra information on me, knew I had been a scarlet woman. Believe me, this information affects my self esteem.
Now I know how a felon feels who has paid for his crime by going to jail but continues to carry the title "felon" for the rest of his life, even after he gets out of jail.
Aren't we consoled that God, through repentance, remembers our sins no more?. Meaning, he remembers the sins but does not leave the harsh consequences attached to them, namely, guilt, shame, torment, pain, anguish or loathing. This is why he says for those that will not repent, they will suffer even as he did for those transgressions.
Re: We can't see our own membership file?
Posted: October 7th, 2015, 10:15 pm
by Finrock
Jesus does not lie. When He says He remembers your sins no more He means it as He plainly said it.
It is good to trust in Jesus Christ over man or flesh.
Simple belief produces great results.
-Finrock
Re: We can't see our own membership file?
Posted: October 7th, 2015, 10:42 pm
by skmo
Matchmaker wrote:A previous Bishop mentioned to me recently that information regarding the problems of my past are still in my Church file today. He confirmed what I had always suspected - that every Bishop I had had in the last 30 years, and I have had many, if they were curious enough to read the extra information on me, knew I had been a scarlet woman. Believe me, this information affects my self esteem.
I'm sorry this has affected you. I hope you've found peace. If not, try repeating the following until you find the truth in it:
They're A-Holes, and they don't matter to who I am.
This is not, in any way, meant to be a reflection of the many fine servants who fulfill their callings, especially the leaders, in our church. It's a difficult job, and I'm glad my leadership positions ended after my mission (which is ironically when my chastity problems started.) However, there are some zealots out there who get called to learn something and fail. They sometimes bring hurt into lives they need to be helping, and I'm at the point in my progression that not only does it no longer bother me personally, I'll jump down the throat of someone who hurts another through abuse of their office.
I mentioned before my disappointment at the likelihood that I'll never again hold a teaching calling among youth, the ages I love to teach. I'm understanding of the church playing CYOA, so it doesn't affect my belief or testimony of the gospel, but I am disappointed. In my HCC, before I got the word I was being excommunicated, I was belittled and verbally assaulted by one of the counselors. I didn't respond much then, because of the nature of the court and my tendency to get quite loud, I held my tongue and left. I did, however, write letters to the church after. I'm happy to receive criticism and warning for my actions, but the rudeness I experienced might have driven many away from returning. I learned long ago that God calls all manner of idiots, jerks, and buttheads to serve Him, so I am not going to allow someone else's small-mindedness to drive me away, but I doubt too many others like that.
Just as we make mistakes, we must allow that others do, too. Try to not let it affect you negatively. The gospel is true in spite of the way some of its practitioners act. God loves you and will help you find and fulfill what He has in store for you. One of the things you can do to do your part is exhibit faith in Him even when His servants throw barriers in your way. If you can help tear some of them down, by all means, do so.
Re: We can't see our own membership file?
Posted: October 7th, 2015, 11:19 pm
by freedomforall
Finrock wrote:Jesus does not lie. When He says He remembers your sins no more He means it as He plainly said it.
It is good to trust in Jesus Christ over man or flesh.
Simple belief produces great results.
-Finrock
When Christ, who is Jehovah, says he knows all things past, present and future, does this mean he can forget our sins and still be God?
2 Nephi 9:20
20 O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it.
Moroni 7:22
22 For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting, behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing.
Prov. 5:21
21 For the ways of man are before the eyes of the Lord, and he pondereth all his goings.
D&C 38:2
2 The same which knoweth all things, for all things are present before mine eyes;
Helaman 9:41
41 And there were others who said: Behold, he is a god, for except he was a god he could not know of all things. For behold, he has told us the thoughts of our hearts, and also has told us things; and even he has brought unto our knowledge the true murderer of our chief judge.
moses 1:6
6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.
Now, here is an account of something I learned years ago.
I wrote to Brother Stephen E. Robinson concerning this question. He teaches religion classes at Brigham Young University, where he is also chairman of the Department of Ancient Scripture. He has at least five articles in the Ensign magazine. He has written many books including “Are Mormons Christian?”, “Believing Christ”, “Following Christ” and “The Testament of Adam”. He says this as follows:
“If God knows everything (2 Nephi 9:20, Moses 1:6, D&C 38:2), that must include any mistakes he may have made as a mortal being. And if we are exalted and become as God now is, we must also know all things—including our own mortal history, complete with our former sins. Memory is eternal; guilt is not. If there is anything we remain ignorant of in eternity, we are not as God is, and have not been exalted”.
.............................................................................................................................................
So, if God forgets things he would cease to be God. Memory is eternal; guilt is not.
Re: We can't see our own membership file?
Posted: October 7th, 2015, 11:39 pm
by minorityofone
When I was a zone leader on an lds mission I was asked to grab something in the mission presidents office, it turned out I opened the wrong drawer to the wrong file cabinet and saw folders with all the missionaries names on them.
I saw my name and grabbed the folder (I might add I felt great about doing it too since the dang thing had my name on it). So anyhow I open it up and see files on me and started reading the first one. It was from a previous stake president from across the ocean that did not like me or my brothers. I used to leave windows open a crack at the church so I could climb in and practice basketball. Anyway one day I climbed in through a window and toppled into the room and when I looked up that stake president was sneering at me with a terrible scowl and said with a very angry and raised voice "I never, EVER want to see you doing that again!" Then he started lecturing me as I picked up the ball and walked past him to the gym... Anyway I had multiple run ins with this guy and everyone knew he was on a power trip and extremely prideful. So back to the mission presidents office I start reading and it has notes from this guy saying how I had no direction and it told about my family and how I came from a questionable family etc etc. I mean I was pissed!
I asked the assistants about it and after some digging and talking to the mission president I learned these files indeed follow us and they do not only have notes if there was some kind of disciplinary action. I have never received church discipline and these previous morons were writing files about me with their opinions about who I was as a human being without even stating facts. It was very disturbing! Anyway not only do they keep files, but when people move from place to place new bishops and stake presidents often call previous bishops and leaders and have a nice chat about how they were in the previous ward and what callings they had and how they did, if they would be good for new callings in the new ward etc. and yes if you have had certain disciplinary action, for instance disfellowshipment you cannot hold a calling as a male higher than a secretary type position, even in an elders quorum presidency. Once the spirit witnessed to me to call a good brother as a counseler in the EQP, and the stake presidency told me he couldn't be a counselor (he was then my secretary). So turns out my father in law was the executive secretary in the stake presidency and I cornered him and his face went red and after probing for a while he spilled the reason and it was because he had received disciplinary action (disfellowshipped for cheating on his wife) and could never hold a calling in a presidency, bishopric, or the like. It is ridiculous. Anyway I have read such files with my own eyes and they are not just clerical records by any means. They are juicy and personal and most people have no idea the "leaders" are keeping tabs.
Re: We can't see our own membership file?
Posted: October 7th, 2015, 11:46 pm
by minorityofone
freedomforall wrote:Finrock wrote:Jesus does not lie. When He says He remembers your sins no more He means it as He plainly said it.
It is good to trust in Jesus Christ over man or flesh.
Simple belief produces great results.
-Finrock
When Christ, who is Jehovah, says he knows all things past, present and future, does this mean he can forget our sins and still be God?
2 Nephi 9:20
20 O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it.
Moroni 7:22
22 For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting, behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing.
Prov. 5:21
21 For the ways of man are before the eyes of the Lord, and he pondereth all his goings.
D&C 38:2
2 The same which knoweth all things, for all things are present before mine eyes;
Helaman 9:41
41 And there were others who said: Behold, he is a god, for except he was a god he could not know of all things. For behold, he has told us the thoughts of our hearts, and also has told us things; and even he has brought unto our knowledge the true murderer of our chief judge.
moses 1:6
6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.
Now, here is an account of something I learned years ago.
I wrote to Brother Stephen E. Robinson concerning this question. He teaches religion classes at Brigham Young University, where he is also chairman of the Department of Ancient Scripture. He has at least five articles in the Ensign magazine. He has written many books including “Are Mormons Christian?”, “Believing Christ”, “Following Christ” and “The Testament of Adam”. He says this as follows:
“If God knows everything (2 Nephi 9:20, Moses 1:6, D&C 38:2), that must include any mistakes he may have made as a mortal being. And if we are exalted and become as God now is, we must also know all things—including our own mortal history, complete with our former sins. Memory is eternal; guilt is not. If there is anything we remain ignorant of in eternity, we are not as God is, and have not been exalted”.
.............................................................................................................................................
So, if God forgets things he would cease to be God. Memory is eternal; guilt is not.
The question is whether the past can be changed so that people literally did not commit certain acts? Is time always linear? Does the past actually exist right now? What is there to forget when the only reality there is is now? Does truth involve something that doesn't exist? What else exists in all the universe besides the eternal now? These questions obviously don't all mesh but there is a lot that we might not completely understand about the atonement and whether history can be rewritten. What if we are just on one time line that is an alternate scenario than the ultimate reality that we haven't lived yet? Fun stuff. "All things with form are transient..."
Re: We can't see our own membership file?
Posted: October 8th, 2015, 2:01 am
by inho
minorityofone wrote:I asked the assistants about it and after some digging and talking to the mission president I learned these files indeed follow us and they do not only have notes if there was some kind of disciplinary action.
You probably saw what your stake president had written in the papers that are submitted when one wants to go to on a mission. You know, the same papers that have all the medical stuff and such. Bishop and SP writes few words in these papers. I think it is reasonable that these are forwarded to the mission president. MP probably had in the file also the letters every missionary writes weekly to him.
After your mission, none of your local leaders have access to these papers. The assistants are just missionaries like you were, and when they said that these papers follow, they were speaking from the perspective they had: papers followed to your MP. It doesn't mean that they would follow after that.
When I was on my mission and the president changed, the president going home told us that he wasn't going to forward any notes about us to the new president. He said that we are now having a fresh start. Maybe the new MP still had the papers submitted when applying to go on a mission. That makes sense, since they have all the medical stuff there too.
Re: We can't see our own membership file?
Posted: October 8th, 2015, 2:46 am
by Sunain
inho wrote:You probably saw what your stake president had written in the papers that are submitted when one wants to go to on a mission. You know, the same papers that have all the medical stuff and such. Bishop and SP writes few words in these papers. I think it is reasonable that these are forwarded to the mission president. MP probably had in the file also the letters every missionary writes weekly to him.
Yeah, what you probably saw was the missionary application form which has notes from your Stake President. These notes aren't part of your electronic membership file, though I'm not sure what happens to them after a missionary has completed their mission. The membership record lists where you served a mission and the years.
Any notes from disciplinary action that has happened in the stake are supposed to be destroyed after the repentance process is completed but its sill mean though that your bishop, stake presidency or people in the disciplinary council are aware of what occurred.
Re: We can't see our own membership file?
Posted: October 8th, 2015, 6:54 am
by cyclOps
minorityofone wrote:When I was a zone leader on an lds mission I was asked to grab something in the mission presidents office, it turned out I opened the wrong drawer to the wrong file cabinet and saw folders with all the missionaries names on them.
I saw my name and grabbed the folder (I might add I felt great about doing it too since the dang thing had my name on it). So anyhow I open it up and see files on me and started reading the first one. It was from a previous stake president from across the ocean that did not like me or my brothers. I used to leave windows open a crack at the church so I could climb in and practice basketball. Anyway one day I climbed in through a window and toppled into the room and when I looked up that stake president was sneering at me with a terrible scowl and said with a very angry and raised voice "I never, EVER want to see you doing that again!" Then he started lecturing me as I picked up the ball and walked past him to the gym... Anyway I had multiple run ins with this guy and everyone knew he was on a power trip and extremely prideful. So back to the mission presidents office I start reading and it has notes from this guy saying how I had no direction and it told about my family and how I came from a questionable family etc etc. I mean I was pissed!
I asked the assistants about it and after some digging and talking to the mission president I learned these files indeed follow us and they do not only have notes if there was some kind of disciplinary action. I have never received church discipline and these previous morons were writing files about me with their opinions about who I was as a human being without even stating facts. It was very disturbing! Anyway not only do they keep files, but when people move from place to place new bishops and stake presidents often call previous bishops and leaders and have a nice chat about how they were in the previous ward and what callings they had and how they did, if they would be good for new callings in the new ward etc. and yes if you have had certain disciplinary action, for instance disfellowshipment you cannot hold a calling as a male higher than a secretary type position, even in an elders quorum presidency. Once the spirit witnessed to me to call a good brother as a counseler in the EQP, and the stake presidency told me he couldn't be a counselor (he was then my secretary). So turns out my father in law was the executive secretary in the stake presidency and I cornered him and his face went red and after probing for a while he spilled the reason and it was because he had received disciplinary action (disfellowshipped for cheating on his wife) and could never hold a calling in a presidency, bishopric, or the like. It is ridiculous. Anyway I have read such files with my own eyes and they are not just clerical records by any means. They are juicy and personal and most people have no idea the "leaders" are keeping tabs.
I was disfellowshipped and am now and EQ counselor.
Re: We can't see our own membership file?
Posted: October 8th, 2015, 7:42 am
by inho
minorityofone wrote:Once the spirit witnessed to me to call a good brother as a counseler in the EQP, and the stake presidency told me he couldn't be a counselor (he was then my secretary). So turns out my father in law was the executive secretary in the stake presidency and I cornered him and his face went red and after probing for a while he spilled the reason and it was because he had received disciplinary action (disfellowshipped for cheating on his wife) and could never hold a calling in a presidency, bishopric, or the like.
LDScop wrote:I was disfellowshipped and am now and EQ counselor.
Minorityofone,
Is it possible that you misunderstood the
never been able to hold callings part?
Maybe the person you wanted to call as EQ counselor was under formal probation (not disfellowshipped) at that time. Disfellowshipped person cannot hold any callings, but it is not necessarily as strict for someone under probation. Maybe they have decided that it would be good for him to continue as EQ secretary, but felt like calling him in the EQP would be too much. I'm just guessing here.
Re: We can't see our own membership file?
Posted: October 8th, 2015, 9:02 am
by Thinker
skmo wrote:Obrien wrote:I have no interest in having their secret deeds shouted from the rooftops - I'd rather have them feed the hungry, clothe the naked etc with tithing and offerings...
The only reason one would be naked and hungry in this country is because they're children or they're trying to make a political statement. I have no desire for the church to use funds to supply lazy people with things they should be providing on their own. I like Benjamin Franklin's take on it: “I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.”
Skmo
You are aware that the most extreme poverty is not in this country, right?
If you study extreme poverty, you'll realize that there are conditions in which the government of a country does not help the poor, but often takes from them (resources etc) and they have nobody to turn to for desperately needed help. Some countries on the whole are not even on the first "rung" of the economic ladder and will remain there unless they get help.
US/American poverty is nothing compared to such extreme poverty that affects almost 1,000,000,000 (1/7) of our brothers and sisters, according to the World Health Org.
The reason why the law of tithing includes sharing TITHES with the poor (Deut. 14:28-29) and the reason Jesus repeatedly taught to help "the least of these" is because it is a powerful way of expressing our love and God is love. Oaks admitted that no tithes go to the needy. To me, that is not only immoral, it is unChristlike. As Jesus taught of the religious leaders of his time, do the good that they preach, but not as they do.
Re: We can't see our own membership file?
Posted: October 8th, 2015, 9:04 am
by theBruceGuy
I had a close friend who was excommunicated for adultery with a 16 year old. He came back into full fellowship, served in Bishoprics, High Councils' etc., he even served at a Regional level for a while. Unfortunately he left the Church to go live with a young 16 year old girl wile in his late 50's and is no longer a member, but he had no restriction when he was active.
Re: We can't see our own membership file?
Posted: October 8th, 2015, 9:12 am
by inho
theBruceGuy wrote:I had a close friend who was excommunicated for adultery with a 16 year old. He came back into full fellowship, served in Bishoprics, High Councils' etc., he even served at a Regional level for a while. Unfortunately he left the Church to go live with a young 16 year old girl wile in his late 50's and is no longer a member, but he had no restriction when he was active.
That's actually surprising. I would guess that adultery with a minor would result in annotation in the member record and inhibit callings like bishop where person will conduct one-on-one interviews with youth.