LDS Freedom Forum

Original_Intent wrote:Ah, darn, BeeP (or someone else) deleted her post.

"For most disciplinary actions, no record of the discipline is retained once the person has been restored to full fellowship. Following restoration after loss of membership, a new membership record is created with the original dates of baptism and other ordinances, with no record of the loss of membership.

In some cases, including domestic abuse, incest, sexual or physical abuse of a child, plural marriage, predatory activities or embezzlement of Church funds, a permanent annotation remains on the record of the individual to ensure they are never again in a position to harm another."

Thinker wrote:Franco,
Am I pretending to be a prophet?
I do not know if you are doing any of those things. I know the prophets who have led the Church never "pretended to be a prophet." Remember, Joseph F. Smith testified before Congress that he has never "pretended to receive revelation."


Collecting money in exchange for temple worthiness?
Jesus Christ has appointed servants to collect the tithes and to judge someone's temple worthiness. You are not one of them.


And then keeping money dealings dark and secret?
I have never seen you post on this forum precisely what you are doing with the money over which God has given you stewardship. As for how His Church exercises stewardship over His money, that is His business.


Have I admitted to NOT sharing tithes with the poor (as Oaks admitted), disobeying the law of tithing (Deut. 14:28-29)?
Tithes are not yours to share with anyone, and in case you haven't heard, the law of Moses, which you are using to define tithing, came to an end with Christ.


Have I hidden that scripture from members - pretending that the law of tithing says nothing about the poor?
The law of tithing in these latter days says nothing about the poor. Like I said, tithing as described in the law of Moses came to an end with Christ. Tithing means giving ten percent of your income to the Church.


Do I charge tithing based on income rather than as scriptures say, "increase" and thereby create poverty?
It is not your place to charge anyone anything, nor is it your place to interpret scriptures for the Church.


You, BeePrepared & Rewcox seem to take great delight in my suffering.
Should I make your day and tell you I was molested by old men, raped and abused by my spouse? Are you all smiles now???
I suggest you get therapy and stop attacking God's Church.

There are people living the gospel and following the prophet who have suffered horribly tragic lives. No one takes delight in someone rejecting the gospel. Being a victim does not give you an excuse for attacking the Church.

Thinker wrote:Stahura
To answer your question...
Take out your scriptures.
Pretend you're giving a lesson on tithing and look up "tithing" in the bible index and bible dictionary.
You won't find Deut. 14:28-29 there, nor is it taught in curriculum, because leaders disobey it (according to Oaks, no tithes go to the poor).

LDScop wrote:"For most disciplinary actions, no record of the discipline is retained once the person has been restored to full fellowship. Following restoration after loss of membership, a new membership record is created with the original dates of baptism and other ordinances, with no record of the loss of membership.

In some cases, including domestic abuse, incest, sexual or physical abuse of a child, plural marriage, predatory activities or embezzlement of Church funds, a permanent annotation remains on the record of the individual to ensure they are never again in a position to harm another."

iWriteStuff wrote:Maybe if I turned the lights on....?

Bee Prepared wrote:I was really confused when my Bishop asked me about being a go-go dancer in Las Vegas. Seems my hubby told him. ;)

Obrien wrote:Newsflash Tony - Jesus Christ doesn't need any money. I believe He uses it as a tool, to gauge our hearts.

Thinker wrote:Thanks for confirming what I was afraid of.
I just keep saying, "Oh my gosh!"
If I would have known, I would not have told bishops so much.
I feel very manipulated.
This isn't right - not Christ-like at all.

How I came across this is a Stake president was saying how he needed to train people about not giving members their own record/file information. A clerk accidentally (or purposefully who knows) printed out all of a member's records and the member was very upset about some discipline action that was noted but happened long ago.

If you only hear the brainwashed message on a regular basis, and rarely (or never) expose yourself to alternatives, you're going to be far more likely to accept what you hear without thinking. If you want to avoid the brainwashing techniques discussed in this post, your best bet is to surround yourself with a spectrum of information rather than simply settling for the message that makes you feel comfortable.

Disclaimer
It's worth noting that manipulating people is generally a bad thing to do. Please do not take this advice. Instead, use it as a guide to spot manipulation in your day-to-day interactions and protect yourself from manipulative people. Such is the goal of Evil Week.

The biggest enemy you'll have when trying to manipulate another person is doubt.

BroJones wrote:I would like to see the file the FBI keep on me - can I see this file? how?

(PS - not worried about my "church file" if any. I served as a Bishop and NEVER entered any such note in any such file.)

Obrien wrote:Newsflash Tony - Jesus Christ doesn't need any money. I believe He uses it as a tool, to gauge our hearts.

Thinker wrote:Franco,
Do you believe the church leaders ARE JESUS CHRIST?
Do you think Jesus would withhold tithes from the poor (disobeying the law of tithing, Deut.14:28-29) and instead add another shopping mall to the corporate empire built, using the name of Jesus Christ in vain?

If you recall, Jesus only showed violence once and that is when he whipped people out of the temple for using it to make money. He forgave sinners, but he called out the evil hypocrisy of religious leaders. I believe he would do similar today.

freedomforall wrote:December 2006
News of the Church
By Abbey Olsen, Church Magazines

SEE: https://www.lds.org/ensign/2006/12/news ... h?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Church first announced three years ago it was planning to redevelop the downtown area to energize the economy of the city that houses its headquarters and to bolster the area near Temple Square. No tithing funds will be used in the redevelopment.
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SEE also: http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_ ... eek_Center" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The entire project is being financed through the church's commercial real estate arm, Property Reserve, Inc. These funds come through for-profit, tax-paying businesses owned by the Church.

This Deseret News article has more information on the construction and financing:

Money for the project is not coming from LDS Church members' tithing donations. City Creek Center is being developed by Property Reserve Inc., the church's real-estate development arm, and its money comes from other real-estate ventures.
- Doug Smeath, "Downtown renovation project", Deseret News March 27, 2007.
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From: http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_ ... _Lake_City" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mormonism and church integrity/City Creek Center Mall in Salt Lake City
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From: http://ldsdoctrine.blogspot.com/2008/06 ... creek.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

First off, no tithing dollars are being used for the City Creek Center. This Downtown revitalization project is being funded by Property Reserve which is the LDS church's commercial real-estate arm.
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So for those still clinging to the idea the church used tithing many, got their information from less than reliable sources or jumped to an unfounded conclusion.

Cookies,
Coincidentally, I was just reading about doubt.
Years ago, a major theme in church was that true doctrine will withstand any scrutiny and how if there is a problem, it will be discovered by free expression. Now, open questioning seems to be considered sin.