LDS Freedom Forum

AgaetisTakk wrote:I don't understand this picture. Has Obama proposed a ban on all guns?

It doesn't imply that he did. I have no doubt that he would if he thought he could get away with it.

AgaetisTakk wrote:

Serragon wrote:The problem isn't the guns. If it were, this would have been happening at similar rates in the past. It it were the guns, then communities like one where I live where guns outnumber people 5 to 1 would have all been killed off long ago.

We have created a monster in the US with our brand of feminism, leftism, and PC Culture. Boys and normal adolescent male behaviour have been under attack for decades now. Fatherless boys. Boys without honor. Boys seeking fame. Boys with no idea where they fit in to the modern society created by leftists and feminists.

Even if you remove the guns, you won't remove the problem.

I'm confused, are mass shooting caused by feminism and liberals?

Also, can you provide me with the normal male behavior pattern you are referring to; are we talking the 16th century male behavior pattern, or the early 20th century?

Overall I think what you are trying to say is that if feminism, liberalism, and PC culture weren't in their current state, a real man would have stood up and gone Jason Bourne on the Oregon shooter. This renders everyone who didn't do that in your fatherless boys, boys without honor, boys seeking fame, and boys with no idea where they fit in to the modern society created by leftists and feminists category. Am I correct?

No, not even close.

markharr wrote:

AgaetisTakk wrote:I don't understand this picture. Has Obama proposed a ban on all guns?

It doesn't imply that he did. I have no doubt that he would if he thought he could get away with it.

Then what makes him a hypocrite?

Caveat.... he's obviously a hypocrite like all politicians - but what make him a hypocrite by having armed body guards?

markharr wrote:

Not sure where you are getting this info from but there have been two mass shooting in Keensaw, GA in the past 5 years. The Penske shooting and FedEx Gunman.

You are correct. My information was from 2007 meaning it was a bit dated. Still they went 32 years without a murder.

Should we compare their crime rates to Chicago which has some of the most restrictive gun laws in the nation?

Kennesaw crime rates vs. national average.
http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Ke ... orgia.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Chicago crime rates vs national average
http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Ch ... inois.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So Kennesaw has roughly the same crime rate as Hoboken, NJ, a state the Brady Campaign rates as the #2 most strict on gun control.

http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Ho ... ersey.html

AgaetisTakk wrote:

markharr wrote:

Not sure where you are getting this info from but there have been two mass shooting in Keensaw, GA in the past 5 years. The Penske shooting and FedEx Gunman.

You are correct. My information was from 2007 meaning it was a bit dated. Still they went 32 years without a murder.

Should we compare their crime rates to Chicago which has some of the most restrictive gun laws in the nation?

Kennesaw crime rates vs. national average.
http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Ke ... orgia.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Chicago crime rates vs national average
http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Ch ... inois.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So Kennesaw has roughly the same crime rate as Hoboken, NJ, a state the Brady Campaign rates as the #2 most strict on gun control.

http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Ho ... ersey.html

Why would I compare the city with the least restrictive cun laws with the city with the second most restrictive? I compared the city with the least restrictive gun laws to the city with the most restrictive gun laws, and that is Chicago.

Chicago
With is nearly 3 million residents, Chicago has the most stringent gun laws in the nation. Gun laws were so strict, in fact, that in 2010, the US Supreme Court interveined saying the law was going to far. However, city lawmakers were able to “keep the ban” without “legally keeping the ban.”Jul 6, 2015

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/82-sho ... ed-states/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AgaetisTakk wrote:

markharr wrote:

AgaetisTakk wrote:I don't understand this picture. Has Obama proposed a ban on all guns?

It doesn't imply that he did. I have no doubt that he would if he thought he could get away with it.

Then what makes him a hypocrite?

Caveat.... he's obviously a hypocrite like all politicians - but what make him a hypocrite by having armed body guards?

Yes, telling everyone else that guns don't make you safer while heavily relying on guns to make yourself safer is as hypocritical as telling everyone else that fences don't work at keeping invaders out when your own residence is surrounded by a fence.

AgaetisTakk wrote:
So Kennesaw has roughly the same crime rate as Hoboken, NJ, a state the Brady Campaign rates as the #2 most strict on gun control.

http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Ho ... ersey.html

I can't find anyting that says that Hoboken NJ has the #2 most strict gun laws, only that New Jersey has strict gun laws. So what did you do? google the city with the lowest crime rate in NJ? Why would I compare a city against a state? Why not pick the city in NJ with the highest crime rate?

http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Ca ... ersey.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Saying that guns leads to mass shootings is like saying the trees cause forest fires.

If you live in an area where there is malaria, most people will get malaria.
If you live in an area where are lots of guns, you most likely will not have a mass shooting.

There is no cause/effect.

So obviously there is something else going on. What is it? And why do people want to continually blame the tool when they can't prove any causation instead of trying to find the underlying issue?


It is because the problem has been created by them w/ their reinvention of society. When you systematically destroy the family, faith, and independence of your citizens and then attack normal masculine behavior, you get a few poor souls who really can't figure out where they fit in and have no moral compass to guide them.

Serragon wrote:Saying that guns leads to mass shootings is like saying the trees cause forest fires.

If you live in an area where there is malaria, most people will get malaria.
If you live in an area where are lots of guns, you most likely will not have a mass shooting.

There is no cause/effect.

So obviously there is something else going on. What is it? And why do people want to continually blame the tool when they can't prove any causation instead of trying to find the underlying issue?


It is because the problem has been created by them w/ their reinvention of society. When you systematically destroy the family, faith, and independence of your citizens and then attack normal masculine behavior, you get a few poor souls who really can't figure out where they fit in and have no moral compass to guide them.

Exactly, restricting access to guns wouldn't have taken away this shooters mental illness, lack of empathy or hatred. Guns are the easy choice for someone who wants to do mass damage, but they aren't the only choice.

markharr wrote:

AgaetisTakk wrote:

markharr wrote:

Not sure where you are getting this info from but there have been two mass shooting in Keensaw, GA in the past 5 years. The Penske shooting and FedEx Gunman.

You are correct. My information was from 2007 meaning it was a bit dated. Still they went 32 years without a murder.

Should we compare their crime rates to Chicago which has some of the most restrictive gun laws in the nation?

Kennesaw crime rates vs. national average.
http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Ke ... orgia.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Chicago crime rates vs national average
http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Ch ... inois.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So Kennesaw has roughly the same crime rate as Hoboken, NJ, a state the Brady Campaign rates as the #2 most strict on gun control.

http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Ho ... ersey.html

Why would I compare the city with the least restrictive cun laws with the city with the second most restrictive? I compared the city with the least restrictive gun laws to the city with the most restrictive gun laws, and that is Chicago.

Chicago
With is nearly 3 million residents, Chicago has the most stringent gun laws in the nation. Gun laws were so strict, in fact, that in 2010, the US Supreme Court interveined saying the law was going to far. However, city lawmakers were able to “keep the ban” without “legally keeping the ban.”Jul 6, 2015

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/82-sho ... ed-states/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That is called cherry-picking data. You're not accounting for demographic nor city laws. All cities in Cook County Illinois are under the same gun laws as the city of Chicago. Glenview, IL follows the same gun laws as Chicago, it also has almost twice the population of Kennesaw, GA - yet still has a significantly lower crime rate. Not to mention that Kennesaw, GA if a more affluent city than Glenview, IL.

In addition, the crime rate in Atlanta is higher than in Chicago. This is a far better representation of what comparable crime rates are.

As far as Chicago goes for being an epicenter for crime, it's not. Chicago isn't even in the top 10 when it comes to larger city crime rates. Chicago has only been made a straw man argument due to Obama connection to it.

http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Ch ... inois.html

markharr wrote:

AgaetisTakk wrote:
So Kennesaw has roughly the same crime rate as Hoboken, NJ, a state the Brady Campaign rates as the #2 most strict on gun control.

http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Ho ... ersey.html

I can't find anyting that says that Hoboken NJ has the #2 most strict gun laws, only that New Jersey has strict gun laws. So what did you do? google the city with the lowest crime rate in NJ? Why would I compare a city against a state? Why not pick the city in NJ with the highest crime rate?

http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Ca ... ersey.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.deseretnews.com/top/1428/9/N ... -laws.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hoboken is in NJ and follows the same gun laws as the rest of the state. Why not pick the city in GA with the highest crime rate?

markharr wrote:

AgaetisTakk wrote:

markharr wrote:

AgaetisTakk wrote:I don't understand this picture. Has Obama proposed a ban on all guns?

It doesn't imply that he did. I have no doubt that he would if he thought he could get away with it.

Then what makes him a hypocrite?

Caveat.... he's obviously a hypocrite like all politicians - but what make him a hypocrite by having armed body guards?

Yes, telling everyone else that guns don't make you safer while heavily relying on guns to make yourself safer is as hypocritical as telling everyone else that fences don't work at keeping invaders out when your own residence is surrounded by a fence.

Can you find me a quote of Obama saying guns don't make you safer?

Serragon wrote:

AgaetisTakk wrote:

Serragon wrote:The problem isn't the guns. If it were, this would have been happening at similar rates in the past. It it were the guns, then communities like one where I live where guns outnumber people 5 to 1 would have all been killed off long ago.

We have created a monster in the US with our brand of feminism, leftism, and PC Culture. Boys and normal adolescent male behaviour have been under attack for decades now. Fatherless boys. Boys without honor. Boys seeking fame. Boys with no idea where they fit in to the modern society created by leftists and feminists.

Even if you remove the guns, you won't remove the problem.

Also, can you provide me with the normal male behavior pattern you are referring to; are we talking the 16th century male behavior pattern, or the early 20th century?

No, not even close.

I'd still like to hear your response to this question.

Serragon wrote:The problem isn't the guns. If it were, this would have been happening at similar rates in the past. It it were the guns, then communities like one where I live where guns outnumber people 5 to 1 would have all been killed off long ago.

We have created a monster in the US with our brand of feminism, leftism, and PC Culture. Boys and normal adolescent male behavior have been under attack for decades now. Fatherless boys. Boys without honor. Boys seeking fame. Boys with no idea where they fit in to the modern society created by leftists and feminists.

Even if you remove the guns, you won't remove the problem.

But aren't there countries in the world where the feminism, leftism, and PC culture is even more rampant than in the US? How have they managed to avoid similar repercussions?

captainfearnot wrote:

Serragon wrote:The problem isn't the guns. If it were, this would have been happening at similar rates in the past. It it were the guns, then communities like one where I live where guns outnumber people 5 to 1 would have all been killed off long ago.

We have created a monster in the US with our brand of feminism, leftism, and PC Culture. Boys and normal adolescent male behavior have been under attack for decades now. Fatherless boys. Boys without honor. Boys seeking fame. Boys with no idea where they fit in to the modern society created by leftists and feminists.

Even if you remove the guns, you won't remove the problem.

But aren't there countries in the world where the feminism, leftism, and PC culture is even more rampant than in the US? How have they managed to avoid similar repercussions?

I would say that ours in America is uniquely different. I would say in other societies they have tried to amend the existing culture while here it has been a complete tear down and rebuilding project. Other western cultures have also done a better job of not letting it take over and be dominate as it has here.

AgaetisTakk wrote:

markharr wrote:

I don't understand this picture. Has Obama proposed a ban on all guns?

Just the law abiding people

Robin Hood wrote:

Serragon wrote:

Robin Hood wrote:Because his comments are so ridiculous.
Does he really want a country that has armed guards at kindergarten and even teachers packing guns?
Surely not. He must have been joking!
Please tell me he was not being serious.

The only thing ridiculous here is your over the top reaction to his comments.

My comments were ridiculous.... seriously?
Armed guards at a kindergarten?
Teachers with guns?
And this man wants to be President!!!
The world's gone mad!

The world is going mad with wickedness....all the more reason to be prepared (i.e. armed). Good luck with the non-law abiding folks that will be packing heat if you aren't....

And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many swords, lest by any means the people who were now called Lamanites should come upon us and destroy us; for I knew their hatred towards me and my children and those who were called my people.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-n ... ang=eng#13" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The people having loved Nephi exceedingly, he having been a great protector for them, having wielded the sword of Laban in their defence, and having labored in all his days for their welfare—

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/jac ... lang=eng#9" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed. Therefore for this cause were the Nephites contending with the Lamanites, to defend themselves, and their families, and their lands, their country, and their rights, and their religion.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alm ... ang=eng#46" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Does anyone know how the US homicide rate compares to other counties?

The ward heretic wrote:Does anyone know how the US homicide rate compares to other counties?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... icide_rate" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/VC.IHR.PSRC.P5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://crimeresearch.org/2014/03/compar ... countries/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jason wrote:

The ward heretic wrote:Does anyone know how the US homicide rate compares to other counties?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... icide_rate" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/VC.IHR.PSRC.P5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://crimeresearch.org/2014/03/compar ... countries/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks.

The ward heretic wrote:

Jason wrote:

The ward heretic wrote:Does anyone know how the US homicide rate compares to other counties?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... icide_rate" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/VC.IHR.PSRC.P5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://crimeresearch.org/2014/03/compar ... countries/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks.

No worries!

AgaetisTakk wrote:
That is called cherry-picking data. You're not accounting for demographic nor city laws. All cities in Cook County Illinois are under the same gun laws as the city of Chicago. Glenview, IL follows the same gun laws as Chicago, it also has almost twice the population of Kennesaw, GA - yet still has a significantly lower crime rate. Not to mention that Kennesaw, GA if a more affluent city than Glenview, IL.

In addition, the crime rate in Atlanta is higher than in Chicago. This is a far better representation of what comparable crime rates are.

As far as Chicago goes for being an epicenter for crime, it's not. Chicago isn't even in the top 10 when it comes to larger city crime rates. Chicago has only been made a straw man argument due to Obama connection to it.

http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Ch ... inois.html

I compare the crime rates of the CITY with the least restricitve gun laws to the crime rates of the CITY with the most restrictive gun laws. You then come in and pick the CITY with the least amount of crime in a STATE that has restrictive gun laws but not the most restrictive gun laws and you accuse me of cherry picking?? That takes a lot of nerve.

I never said that Chicago was the epicenter of crime, I was comparing the crime rates of the city which is generaly considered to have the most restrictive gun laws with the crime rates of the city that is generaly considered to have the least restrictive gun laws. I never even mentioned Obama in relationship to Chicago, and I didn't make a straw man argument.

The data speaks for itself.

AgaetisTakk wrote:Can you find me a quote of Obama saying guns don't make you safer?

“There is a gun for roughly every man, woman, and child in America. So, how can you with a straight face make the argument that more guns will make us safer? We know that states with the most gun laws tend to have the fewest gun deaths, so the notion that gun laws don’t work, or will make it harder for law abiding citizens and criminals will still get guns is not borne out by the evidence.”


Speaking of, I would like to ask how you can make the argument with a straigh face that the states with the most gun laws tend to have fewer gun deaths. Of course they do. Just like states with fewer cars have fewer traffic related deaths, and states without sharks have fewer shark related deaths. The idea is to reduce crime, and the states with the most restrictive gun laws have higher crime rates. If the goal is to reduce accidental death we better start banning more than just guns.

The libs can't win on facts so they are going with emotion.

Utah has more restrictive shark laws then Florida, and Florida has more shark related deaths so that means that we should ban sharks.

(c) all native and nonnative species and subspecies of fish that are not ornamental aquatic animal species and not listed in Subsections (2) through (30) are classified as prohibited for collection, and controlled for importation and possession.
http://www.rules.utah.gov/publicat/code ... 57-003.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The ward heretic wrote:Does anyone know how the US homicide rate compares to other counties?

Does not really matter as every country is different. I suppose if we send our gangs over to Europe, their murder rate will go up and ours will go down even if they have no guns.