LDS Freedom Forum

Bruce McKonkie talked about 7 great heresies taught in the world. I think it's time for 7 great half truths taught by members in this Church.
Note I am not criticizing the Church, or it's leaders. I only speak of incorrect things that are taught and embraced by some people within this church.

1.Being baptized and confirmed means you are born again? How often have I heard this is baptism meetings for 8 year olds and converts?"Thomas, 5 minutes from now, you will be born again, starting a new life with the Spirit as your companion"... Read the Book of Mormon and the Bible, the doctrine of Christ is contained within. How many people believe they are born again when they actually have never received the baptism of fire and a remission of sins? I wasn't born again until I was 20 years old, when I cried out unto the Lord and asked Jesus Christ to have mercy on me. I was confirmed when I was 8. I received the Spirit when I was 20.
Jesus told the Apostles to receive the Holy Ghost at the end of John, but they didn't receive the gift of Holy Ghost/Baptism of Fire until Acts 2.

2.Being baptized and confirmed in this church will get you to the celestial kingdom as long as you "endure to the end"( This attitude of "If don't commit adultery and any other bad sin until I die, I will enter the Celestial Kingdom'), and nobody else will?
That gives you the right to mock and scorn others, pointing at them telling them they are ungodly?
Enduring to the end is MUCH more than just not committing grave sins and paying tithing until you die..

3.God can't reveal any new mysteries to a normal person unless it's been revealed to a General Authority of the Church?
I don't even need to explain this one. This man made philosophy quenches the gifts of the Spirit and denies the gift of God.
God is no respecter of persons. To believe Number 3 is the believe God respects GA's more than normal members.

4.These men somehow transform into prophets, seers, and revelators when they are promoted to the position of Apostle?
Being the President of The Church doesn't make you a prophet. Being ordained by another man doesn't make you a prophet. Experiences between you and God, your broken heart and your repentance are what lead you to become a prophet.(In no way am I criticizing them, they all very well could be true Apostles and Prophets. It's just that there is an attitude in the Church that this ordination makes them become prophets seers and revelators. This is incorrect.If they are true Apostles and Prophets, they became prophets through their own diligence,and received power from on high either before their ordination, or some time after.)

5.That missionaries magically gain a mantle of authority when they are ordained by another priesthood holder. Again, this is between that missionary and God. They will receive power to speak and preach by the Holy Ghost, and this will happen through their repentance, having a broken heart and contrite Spirit. The Spirit giveth utterance. The Prophets in the scriptures had to cry night and day, fast for days, pray for hours on end, speaking with Angels and God himself before they received power to do the things they did. Now in our day, we only need to be ordained by another man and sent into the MTC? How convenient that would be.

6. That angels seem to never appear, nobody speaks in tongues nowadays, very rarely are the dead raised, nobody that is lame rises and walk, the eyes of the blind aren't opened, and this all has ceased because it "isn't God's will"
These things have ceased because of a lack of faith. No other reason. The Book of Mormon spoke of this. Yes God's will is important. I'm willing to bet that more often than not, God wants the dead person to rise, he wants the blind to see, but we don't have enough faith to make it happen.

7.



Fill in the blank. There are other things I've heard members embrace that are simply not true.
What other "heresies" are there?

I don't say these things to persecute and judge anyone. These things have been confirmed to me through much prayer and searching. To believe the things on this list is to hold fast to unbelief. It's impossible to have faith and unbelief at the same time.
I'm not claiming that the Church leaders teach false doctrine, that this is their fault, that they aren't Apostles. None of this. I'm not attacking the church. I'm attacking half truths/philosophies that are embraced by people within the church.

My purpose here has always been to learn, and consider things that I haven't considered. I don't want any unbelief do keep me from my Savior. Cast away any false traditions and hold fast to that which is good.
My other purpose is to help others. This forum is a way for us to preach the Gospel, to warn our neighbor, to reason with each other and come to understand truths that we previously didn't understand.

I have no doubt that there are those that will be unhappy with this post. They will tell me I attack the brethren, that I'm ungodly, deceitful etc. Perhaps I'm incorrect on some points. Show me, I'll prayerfully consider.

I also know that the truth hurts, and the wicked become angry and upset when they are confronted with the truth. The Righteous love the truth, and embrace it, and adopt it into their lives.

I love my Savior, I'm grateful for this church which was Restored by Joseph Smith, a true prophet. I sustain our current leaders First Presidency and Quorum of 12 Apostles, and hope to learn from them when I can re-read their talks from Conference. I hope receive spiritual knowledge one day that they are true messengers. Until then, I will continue knocking and asking.

P.S if this makes any "TBM's" feel any better, my Mission President, a man with authority and priesthood keys confirmed my opinions when I approached him with my thoughts.

Good find. There are many heresies I could add three:

The signs and symbols received in the endowment are used to "get into heaven". These signs and symbols are learning tools that were familiar with the early saints. What gets you into heaven is who you become by keeping your covenants and utilizing the repentance process and the atonement.

Priesthood power comes when you are ordained. The power comes from your obedience and faith in Christ, and your experience in using the priesthood. The you may have authority, but it is nothing, if you don't have power. See D&C 121:37-8

There is a judgement where Jesus will reject you if you don't pass the test. The judgement is when we decide not to follow Him into the CK. Jesus won't be keeping us out, some will be asking to leave, because they didn't become the person we needed to become.

okay one more for fun...

There are 3 degrees of glory. Actually there are many levels and layers to eternal life and glory. Our simple minds can really not understand the complexity of this at this time in the number and scale if dimensions available to us as we progress.

zionminded wrote:Good find. There are many heresies I could add three:

The signs and symbols received in the endowment are used to "get into heaven". These signs and symbols are learning tools that were familiar with the early saints. What gets you into heaven is who you become by keeping your covenants and utilizing the repentance process and the atonement.

Priesthood power comes when you are ordained. The power comes from your obedience and faith in Christ, and your experience in using the priesthood. The you may have authority, but it is nothing, if you don't have power. See D&C 121:37-8

There is a judgement where Jesus will reject you if you don't pass the test. The judgement is when we decide not to follow Him into the CK. Jesus won't be keeping us out, some will be asking to leave, because they didn't become the person we needed to become.

okay one more for fun...

There are 3 degrees of glory. Actually there are many levels and layers to eternal life and glory. Our simple minds can really not understand the complexity of this at this time in the number and scale if dimensions available to us as we progress.

This is a good post. understanding these points will help many members progress even further on the strait and narrow path.
So many people think that these signs and symbols are the Endowment. They aren't.
The meanings of the symbols point towards heavenly things, and heavenly meanings.
The endowment we receive is an endowment of power, an powerful experience given to us by the power of the Holy Ghost ,a tangible one that you'll never forget or deny. It's one that not every person receives. One only receives this one after true repentance, after becoming broken hearted and contrite.

The real endowment comes when you experience the real thing, which is an experience that anybody in this life is capable of receiving. The real endowment "the gift", comes when Christ asks you what you desire. And he gives you that gift. Everything else is just fluff and building blocks to that end.

Stahura wrote: 4.These men somehow transform into prophets, seers, and revelators when they are promoted to the position of Apostle?
Being the President of The Church doesn't make you a prophet. Being ordained by another man doesn't make you a prophet. Experiences between you and God, your broken heart and your repentance are what lead you to become a prophet.(In no way am I criticizing them, they all very well could be true Apostles and Prophets. It's just that there is an attitude in the Church that this ordination makes them become prophets seers and revelators. This is incorrect.If they are true Apostles and Prophets, they became prophets through their own diligence, either before their ordination, or some time after.)

I am anything but a regular TBM. I am a temple worker that has been the equivalent of a so-called "Internet Mormon" going on 29 years after my "faith crisis" in my early teens, when I came to find out that my karate teacher was an anti-Mormon and I had to deal with all of the issues people are confronted with now on the internet at a very young age in the mind 1980's.

The problem is, you are quite wrong about this, that they are only prophets through their own diligence. They increase in spirituality naturally through their own diligence. But that doesn't stop them from getting the inspiration they are entitled to for their calling in order to perform in their callings, even from the VERY FIRST DAY OF THEIR ORDINATION AND SETTING APART. So, I simply cant express to you how wrong I believe you are on that point. Any guy off the street that is a moderately spiritual mormon that has had answers to prayers before, that is suddenly thrown into a position of leadership, even if he was made into the President of the Church, would instantly have the Lord qualifying him for the job he has been thrust into. Whom the Lord calls, he qualifies, regardless of one's level of spirituality. You just happen to be better at it with experience.

7 - by paying tithing and consecrating our efforts at church, we are building the Kingdom of God.

EdGoble wrote:

Stahura wrote: 4.These men somehow transform into prophets, seers, and revelators when they are promoted to the position of Apostle?
Being the President of The Church doesn't make you a prophet. Being ordained by another man doesn't make you a prophet. Experiences between you and God, your broken heart and your repentance are what lead you to become a prophet.(In no way am I criticizing them, they all very well could be true Apostles and Prophets. It's just that there is an attitude in the Church that this ordination makes them become prophets seers and revelators. This is incorrect.If they are true Apostles and Prophets, they became prophets through their own diligence, either before their ordination, or some time after.)

I am anything but a regular TBM. I am a temple worker that has been the equivalent of a so-called "Internet Mormon" going on 29 years after my "faith crisis" in my early teens, when I came to find out that my karate teacher was an anti-Mormon and I had to deal with all of the issues people are confronted with now on the internet at a very young age in the mind 1980's.

The problem is, you are quite wrong about this, that they are only prophets through their own diligence. They increase in spirituality naturally through their own diligence. But that doesn't stop them from getting the inspiration they are entitled to for their calling in order to perform in their callings, even from the VERY FIRST DAY OF THEIR ORDINATION AND SETTING APART. So, I simply cant express to you how wrong I believe you are on that point. Any guy off the street that is a moderately spiritual mormon that has had answers to prayers before, that is suddenly thrown into a position of leadership, even if he was made into the President of the Church, would instantly have the Lord qualifying him for the job he has been thrust into. Whom the Lord calls, he qualifies, regardless of one's level of spirituality. You just happen to be better at it with experience.

Like I said, I'll consider it. I'm open minded.. So far, the only calling of importance that I've had was to be a missionary. And people make the same claims about missionaries. Once they are thrust into this situation, the Lord qualifies them etc.. I disagree. I didn't feel different until the point in my mission when I was baptized by fire and received a portion of the power available to us.

I don't believe that they will be automatically qualified for a position.But I will openly ponder and pray about it Ed.

zionminded wrote: Priesthood power comes when you are ordained. The power comes from your obedience and faith in Christ, and your experience in using the priesthood. The you may have authority, but it is nothing, if you don't have power. See D&C 121:37-8

There is some truth to this, but the Lord can intervene with his own power when he feels that the circumstances demand it, regardless of one's level of power, from the very moment you are ordained. So, I disagree with you in details of how power works. In other words, the Lord can be willing to intervene if it is his will, even if you have not had a lot of chance to develop your own power yet. This is because of his mercy and grace, knowing our failings and limitations. Certainly though, people cannot use this as an excuse, and must develop their own power. Yet, they cannot develop their own power any faster than they have the capacity, or any faster than they have the strength to do so.

so, I agree with you that our own power is dependent on our own development. I disagree with you that this would be the only source of power available to the Priesthood holder, depending on the will of the Lord and how he would desire an outcome to be. On the other hand, sometimes people are not healed when they could have been, if only a priesthood holder had been more diligent in developing his own power, when the Lord chooses not to intervene.

Stahura wrote: Like I said, I'll consider it. I'm open minded.. So far, the only calling of importance that I've had was to be a missionary. And people make the same claims about missionaries. Once they are thrust into this situation, the Lord qualifies them etc.. I disagree. I didn't feel different until the point in my mission when I was baptized by fire and received a portion of the power available to us.

I don't believe that they will be automatically qualified for a position.But I will openly ponder and pray about it Ed.

Thanks for your open-mindedness. I am not denying that someone's effectiveness is certainly effected by the amount of power he has in his development. On the other hand, someone that has not had the luxury of the development they would like to have, and suddenly thrust into something not of their own making, but of the Lord's making, they are indeed qualified, even if it is at the most minimal level possible. Otherwise, they would not be able to perform at all. In that type of a situation, they are simply entirely dependent on the goodness and grace of God until they can stand on their own, because the situation is of the Lord's making. Otherwise, they would never have the opportunity to grow in that capacity.

What I'm really saying is, I don't deny a person's need to stand on his own and have his own light and his own power. But to deny that the Lord does not intervene in the meantime is a falsehood, when the situation is of the Lord's making.

EdGoble wrote:

Stahura wrote: Like I said, I'll consider it. I'm open minded.. So far, the only calling of importance that I've had was to be a missionary. And people make the same claims about missionaries. Once they are thrust into this situation, the Lord qualifies them etc.. I disagree. I didn't feel different until the point in my mission when I was baptized by fire and received a portion of the power available to us.

I don't believe that they will be automatically qualified for a position.But I will openly ponder and pray about it Ed.

Thanks for your open-mindedness. I am not denying that someone's effectiveness is certainly effected by the amount of power he has in his development. On the other hand, someone that has not had the luxury of the development they would like to have, and suddenly thrust into something not of their own making, but of the Lord's making, they are indeed qualified, even if it is at the most minimal level possible. Otherwise, they would not be able to perform at all. In that type of a situation, they are simply entirely dependent on the goodness and grace of God until they can stand on their own, because the situation is of the Lord's making. Otherwise, they would never have the opportunity to grow in that capacity.

What I'm really saying is, I don't deny a person's need to stand on his own and have his own light and his own power. But to deny that the Lord does not intervene in the meantime is a falsehood, when the situation is of the Lord's making.

Can you find a scripture to shed some light on this?

Stahura wrote: Can you find a scripture to shed some light on this?

"And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me." (2 Corinthians 12:9)

"And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them."(Ether 12:27)


This doesn't mean that the Lord instantly gives us strength. It means, that through our humility, and our faith, the Lord intervenes with grace, and that through our diligence, we will be made stronger eventually in the natural course of events. Some quotes:


"We should have great hope in knowing, however unworthy we may feel or weak we may be, that if we will do all we can, He will come to our aid and provide for us whatever we may lack." (Receiving Divine Assistance through the Grace of the Lord, Gene R. Cook, April 1993 conference)


"The Lord will help us in our callings, especially when we feel overwhelmed by the responsibilities. When we pray to Heavenly Father for guidance, He will direct us through inspiration and will bless us to serve well. The Lord helps those who serve Him and will add His power to their efforts (see D&C 84:88). As President Thomas S. Monson promised, 'When we are on the Lord’s errand, we are entitled to the Lord’s help. Remember that whom the Lord calls, the Lord qualifies.'" (https://www.lds.org/ensign/2013/07/whom ... s?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)


"And whoso receiveth you, there I will be also, for I will go before your face. I will be on your right hand and on your left, and my Spirit shall be in your hearts, and mine angels round about you, to bear you up." (D&C 84:88)

EdGoble wrote:

Stahura wrote: Can you find a scripture to shed some light on this?

"And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me." (2 Corinthians 12:9)

"And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them."(Ether 12:27)


This doesn't mean that the Lord instantly gives us strength. It means, that through our humility, and our faith, the Lord intervenes with grace, and that through our diligence, we will be made stronger eventually in the natural course of events. Some quotes:


"We should have great hope in knowing, however unworthy we may feel or weak we may be, that if we will do all we can, He will come to our aid and provide for us whatever we may lack." (Receiving Divine Assistance through the Grace of the Lord, Gene R. Cook, April 1993 conference)


"The Lord will help us in our callings, especially when we feel overwhelmed by the responsibilities. When we pray to Heavenly Father for guidance, He will direct us through inspiration and will bless us to serve well. The Lord helps those who serve Him and will add His power to their efforts (see D&C 84:88). As President Thomas S. Monson promised, 'When we are on the Lord’s errand, we are entitled to the Lord’s help. Remember that whom the Lord calls, the Lord qualifies.'" (https://www.lds.org/ensign/2013/07/whom ... s?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)


"And whoso receiveth you, there I will be also, for I will go before your face. I will be on your right hand and on your left, and my Spirit shall be in your hearts, and mine angels round about you, to bear you up." (D&C 84:88)

Okay I like those scriptures

I can see what you mean. But I don't think that the Lord will turn them into prophets seers and revelators just because they received a calling.

Bare with me for a moment.

Anybody can become a prophet or a seer if they repent sufficiently. As time goes by they will receive more and more of the Lords light until they receive a fullness(D&C 93)

To suggest that God just qualifies these men and turns them into seers and revelators because they received a calling makes me think that getting certain callings in the church are in a way, "shortcuts."
You can either pray and repent and diligently seek into you receive power and gifts from God, or just be a faithful member and eventually receive a high calling and God qualifies you and gives you what another person will only get through much repentance and prayer and fasting.

Do you see where I'm coming from?

I believe the Lord gives them something , something to help them. I have no doubt he blesses them. But I don't think they can become prophets seers and revelators unless they do what Nephi and Alma did, fast, pray for days, receive power from on high , pierce the veil etc.

EdGoble wrote:

zionminded wrote: Priesthood power comes when you are ordained. The power comes from your obedience and faith in Christ, and your experience in using the priesthood. The you may have authority, but it is nothing, if you don't have power. See D&C 121:37-8

There is some truth to this, but the Lord can intervene with his own power when he feels that the circumstances demand it, regardless of one's level of power, from the very moment you are ordained. So, I disagree with you in details of how power works. In other words, the Lord can be willing to intervene if it is his will, even if you have not had a lot of chance to develop your own power yet. This is because of his mercy and grace, knowing our failings and limitations. Certainly though, people cannot use this as an excuse, and must develop their own power. Yet, they cannot develop their own power any faster than they have the capacity, or any faster than they have the strength to do so.

so, I agree with you that our own power is dependent on our own development. I disagree with you that this would be the only source of power available to the Priesthood holder, depending on the will of the Lord and how he would desire an outcome to be. On the other hand, sometimes people are not healed when they could have been, if only a priesthood holder had been more diligent in developing his own power, when the Lord chooses not to intervene.

I do think the Lord can intervene when needed ,on the faith of the person receiving the healing.

zionminded wrote:

EdGoble wrote:

zionminded wrote: Priesthood power comes when you are ordained. The power comes from your obedience and faith in Christ, and your experience in using the priesthood. The you may have authority, but it is nothing, if you don't have power. See D&C 121:37-8

There is some truth to this, but the Lord can intervene with his own power when he feels that the circumstances demand it, regardless of one's level of power, from the very moment you are ordained. So, I disagree with you in details of how power works. In other words, the Lord can be willing to intervene if it is his will, even if you have not had a lot of chance to develop your own power yet. This is because of his mercy and grace, knowing our failings and limitations. Certainly though, people cannot use this as an excuse, and must develop their own power. Yet, they cannot develop their own power any faster than they have the capacity, or any faster than they have the strength to do so.

so, I agree with you that our own power is dependent on our own development. I disagree with you that this would be the only source of power available to the Priesthood holder, depending on the will of the Lord and how he would desire an outcome to be. On the other hand, sometimes people are not healed when they could have been, if only a priesthood holder had been more diligent in developing his own power, when the Lord chooses not to intervene.

I do think the Lord can intervene when needed ,on the faith of the person receiving the healing.

The important thing that we want to understand is whether these men somehow transform into Prophets Seers and Revelators as soon as they are ordained by Thomas Monson, or whether they become prophets seers and revelators through personal prayer, fast, and repentance until they receive power from on high and pierce the veil.

I don't believe that these man become prophets seers and revelators from one day to the next just because they were ordained by another Apostle. Perhaps the reason they were chosen because they had already become prophets seers and revelators. Perhaps they aren't prophets, seers, and revelators yet, and must seek this out and receive this power from God before they are true Seers.

That's different from saying God blesses them that they may fulfill their callings. I have no doubt he helps them with that and blesses them.

:-B - - - abslolute zero possibility of those who are called to lead astray for the lords intervening etc.

vs

"4 For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him.
9 Behold, thou art Joseph, and thou wast chosen to do the work of the Lord, but because of transgression, if thou art not aware thou wilt fall."(dc4)
"32 But there is a possibility that man may fall from grace and depart from the living God;"(dc20)
"39 And if ye seek the riches which....but beware of pride, lest ye become as the Nephites of old."(dc38)

#7: The idea that there is some level of righteous works you must complete before God's grace kicks in and saves you.

I would say that this is the most damning of all false doctrines among the members of the church. Corollaries of this include, depending on how depressed you feel at the moment, that that level is far and above anything you can actually hope to achieve, as well as the misunderstanding that 99.999% of all members in the church will be unable to have their calling and election made sure in this life.

I'd agree with much so far except it's important to remember that all we experience are symbols that are subjectively interpreted.

I.e.: I realize that at 8 years old, most kids do not really have a mighty change of heart and are not genuinely spiritually born again.
Yet, I also appreciate that 8 years is about the time when children emerge from the concrete way of seeing things and can have more understanding between imagination and reality, right from wrong.
Also, I see baptism symbolic ritual similar to marriage.
The ordinance itself is not the spiritual or social experience - but is rather like a blueprint - intent and hope.
8 seems like a good age to begin with such a hope and plan to do God's will.

Scriptures say that to enter into the kingdom of God (which is within you), you must be born of water and the spirit. I believe every person born of water from their mother's amniotic fluid has done the first part. Being spiritually born is something that ideally happens over and over, as new truths are learned - line upon line (good news).
Still, I love the beautiful symbolism and love surrounding baptism and tell my kids it is to help them remember to always be born again spiritually - to continually learn.

I'd sum up the greatest heresies as paying money for temple worthiness (and other financial corruption) and cognitive distortions (which includes many obstacles to God, like leader worship).

h_p wrote:#7: The idea that there is some level of righteous works you must complete before God's grace kicks in and saves you.

I would say that this is the most damning of all false doctrines among the members of the church. Corollaries of this include, depending on how depressed you feel at the moment, that that level is far and above anything you can actually hope to achieve, as well as the misunderstanding that 99.999% of all members in the church will be unable to have their calling and election made sure in this life.

I think this one is very important.
An observation that I made is I've never actually been worthy of the blessings God gave me. I never deserved them. I've always been a "beggar" in this regard, one who will take my blessings for granted. Understanding this helps us out more trust in God and less in ourselves.

You get 5 points for reminding me of this

Thinker wrote:I'd agree with much so far except it's important to remember that all we experience are symbols that are subjectively interpreted.

I.e.: I realize that at 8 years old, most kids do not really have a mighty change of heart and are not genuinely spiritually born again.
Yet, I also appreciate that 8 years is about the time when children emerge from the concrete way of seeing things and can have more understanding between imagination and reality, right from wrong.
Also, I see baptism symbolic ritual similar to marriage.
The ordinance itself is not the spiritual or social experience - but is rather like a blueprint - intent and hope.
8 seems like a good age to begin with such a hope and plan to do God's will.

Scriptures say that to enter into the kingdom of God (which is within you), you must be born of water and the spirit. I believe every person born of water from their mother's amniotic fluid has done the first part. Being spiritually born is something that ideally happens over and over, as new truths are learned - line upon line (good news).
Still, I love the beautiful symbolism and love surrounding baptism and tell my kids it is to help them remember to always be born again spiritually - to continually learn.

I'd sum up the greatest heresies as paying money for temple worthiness (and other financial corruption) and cognitive distortions (which includes many obstacles to God, like leader worship).

I like this post too!

As far as temple worthiness and tithing, I had similar thoughts before I ever even discovered this forum and knew that people have had the same thought.
I still consider the possibility that God did indeed tell the brethren to make these changes and to do it this way. Although I lean less towards this possibility and more to the one you suggest.
It's still something I want to pray about and receive spiritual knowledge about.

Stahura wrote:
Okay I like those scriptures

I can see what you mean. But I don't think that the Lord will turn them into prophets seers and revelators just because they received a calling.

Bare with me for a moment.

Anybody can become a prophet or a seer if they repent sufficiently. As time goes by they will receive more and more of the Lords light until they receive a fullness(D&C 93)

To suggest that God just qualifies these men and turns them into seers and revelators because they received a calling makes me think that getting certain callings in the church are in a way, "shortcuts."
You can either pray and repent and diligently seek into you receive power and gifts from God, or just be a faithful member and eventually receive a high calling and God qualifies you and gives you what another person will only get through much repentance and prayer and fasting.

Do you see where I'm coming from?

I believe the Lord gives them something , something to help them. I have no doubt he blesses them. But I don't think they can become prophets seers and revelators unless they do what Nephi and Alma did, fast, pray for days, receive power from on high , pierce the veil etc.

I do see what you are coming from, but I think that you are arguing over semantics, and you need to think hard about what you are really wanting and hoping for, and the difference between that and mundane reality. I think that you are arguing for an ideal that you will see sometimes and not at other times. What you really would like to see, so it seems, is men of immense, out of the ordinary spiritual power that occupy positions of trust and influence, like Enoch, who could do great miracles and so forth. I think that you are looking for the fantastic and the idealistic, and I'm hopeful that you are not sign-seeking because of this. I do not dispute that at times in history, men like these have occupied the leadership positions. But you seem to forget that not all men have the same spiritual gifts, and in some people, spiritual gifts that they do have are nascent and undeveloped. Not all men have the burning in the bosom, even though it is touted as a common way to get revelation. But some people get it in other ways. Not all men have the gift of prophecy even if they are entitled, because it is undeveloped. Some regular men have to occupy mantles of authority until some time in history arrives for other out of the ordinary men to take their place who have a "great work" to do. Then these types of men that you refer to do appear in the time they are needed. Joseph Smith was one of them. Moses was one of them. The two witnesses of the last days during Armageddon will be a couple of others. But these types of men are the exception, not the rule, to the men that occupy these seats of authority. Most of the time, they are very ordinary. When the time comes for the "Second Great Work," some will occupy these positions of authority who have great spiritual power. Here is the report from Deseret News on August 16 1878, quoting David Whitmer:

Q- When will the temple be built? (referring to Jackson County Temple)
A- Right after the great tribulation is over.

Q- What do you mean by that?
A- A civil war more bloody and cruel than the rebellion. (first civil
war) It will be a smashing up of this nation, about which time the SECOND GREAT WORK has to be done, a work like Joseph did, and the translation of the sealed plates, and peace all over.”

You see, here is what I perceive as a flaw in your logic: you think that someone to be a prophet, seer and revelator, that they have to have fantastic spiritual power. It is not uncommon for these people to have appeared in history, and they have their place, but normally the Lord has them appear on the scene when some GREAT WORK has to be done or accomplished, at some time in the history of the Church when great changes are at hand in rapid succession, not at a time when there is kind of a "regular" or "mundane" type of thing, like is happening now. And these types of men with great , extraordinary spiritual power are not given a separate title from those who are "regular" people. They are all prophets, seers and revelators, regardless of their power level, just by virtue of their office. So, if you want to see more of these types, you have to either hope you live to see Armageddon or the Second Great work, because it will be kind of boring for you in the meantime with the regular Joe's that simply fulfill their callings as they are commanded. Because those types of people are only put in place by the Lord for more extraordinary junctures in history than the one we live in. If you want, you can make up some name for these types, but prophet, seer and revelator are titles reserved for offices, not for people with out of the ordinary power. I do not dispute that there have been times that they have appeared on the scene, but you have to make up some other name for them, and you have to be patient until they are needed to appear to fulfill something special at some special time in the Lord's own timing. And you may not be lucky to see that in your lifetime. For now, I suggest that you be thankful that you have a system that was established so that people like this can indeed come on the scene with authority to fulfill their duties when they are needed.

I suggest that you could make up a title for these men such as "Great Power Prophets" or something to distinguish them from regular prophets seers and revelators, because you will seldom see these guys until the Lord needs them for something special and out of the ordinary. But when they do come, the will occupy the SAME MANTLE as the ordinary guys. But you are wrong if you think ordinary guys cannot hold the titles that come with their offices. And you need to remember that these Great Power Prophets only appear on the scene for special work, not for ordinary times. And even then, that is according to the Lord's timing, not for us to see these if we are seeking for signs to consume upon our lusts. So my suggestion is that you accept that prophet seer and revelator is a name that goes along with an office, and these things are not necessarily descriptive of the thing you want to describe, and you ought to have a different name for it. I don't deny that what you want to see has existed in history.

It is not uncommon in the history of our Church for these men of great power to have to step in and reform things that are not exactly in order. But that kind of thing also happens according to the Lord's timing, when the Lord decides its time for things to be set in order. Until then, we need to have patience with the regular guys occupying the seats of authority.

EdGoble wrote:

Stahura wrote:
Okay I like those scriptures

I can see what you mean. But I don't think that the Lord will turn them into prophets seers and revelators just because they received a calling.

Bare with me for a moment.

Anybody can become a prophet or a seer if they repent sufficiently. As time goes by they will receive more and more of the Lords light until they receive a fullness(D&C 93)

To suggest that God just qualifies these men and turns them into seers and revelators because they received a calling makes me think that getting certain callings in the church are in a way, "shortcuts."
You can either pray and repent and diligently seek into you receive power and gifts from God, or just be a faithful member and eventually receive a high calling and God qualifies you and gives you what another person will only get through much repentance and prayer and fasting.

Do you see where I'm coming from?

I believe the Lord gives them something , something to help them. I have no doubt he blesses them. But I don't think they can become prophets seers and revelators unless they do what Nephi and Alma did, fast, pray for days, receive power from on high , pierce the veil etc.

I do see what you are coming from, but I think that you are arguing over semantics, and you need to think hard about what you are really wanting and hoping for, and the difference between that and mundane reality. I think that you are arguing for an ideal that you will see sometimes and not at other times. What you really would like to see, so it seems, is men of immense, out of the ordinary spiritual power that occupy positions of trust and influence, like Enoch, who could do great miracles and so forth. I think that you are looking for the fantastic and the idealistic, and I'm hopeful that you are not sign-seeking because of this. I do not dispute that at times in history, men like these have occupied the leadership positions. But you seem to forget that not all men have the same spiritual gifts, and in some people, spiritual gifts that they do have are nascent and undeveloped. Not all men have the burning in the bosom, even though it is touted as a common way to get revelation. But some people get it in other ways. Not all men have the gift of prophecy even if they are entitled, because it is undeveloped. Some regular men have to occupy mantles of authority until some time in history arrives for other out of the ordinary men to take their place who have a "great work" to do. Then these types of men that you refer to do appear in the time they are needed. Joseph Smith was one of them. Moses was one of them. The two witnesses of the last days during Armageddon will be a couple of others. But these types of men are the exception, not the rule, to the men that occupy these seats of authority. Most of the time, they are very ordinary. When the time comes for the "Second Great Work," some will occupy these positions of authority who have great spiritual power. Here is the report from Deseret News on August 16 1878, quoting David Whitmer:

Q- When will the temple be built? (referring to Jackson County Temple)
A- Right after the great tribulation is over.

Q- What do you mean by that?
A- A civil war more bloody and cruel than the rebellion. (first civil
war) It will be a smashing up of this nation, about which time the SECOND GREAT WORK has to be done, a work like Joseph did, and the translation of the sealed plates, and peace all over.”

You see, here is what I perceive as a flaw in your logic: you think that someone to be a prophet, seer and revelator, that they have to have fantastic spiritual power. It is not uncommon for these people to have appeared in history, and they have their place, but normally the Lord has them appear on the scene when some GREAT WORK has to be done or accomplished, at some time in the history of the Church when great changes are at hand in rapid succession, not at a time when there is kind of a "regular" or "mundane" type of thing, like is happening now. And these types of men with great , extraordinary spiritual power are not given a separate title from those who are "regular" people. They are all prophets, seers and revelators, regardless of their power level, just by virtue of their office. So, if you want to see more of these types, you have to either hope you live to see Armageddon or the Second Great work, because it will be kind of boring for you in the meantime with the regular Joe's that simply fulfill their callings as they are commanded. Because those types of people are only put in place by the Lord for more extraordinary junctures in history than the one we live in. If you want, you can make up some name for these types, but prophet, seer and revelator are titles reserved for offices, not for people with out of the ordinary power. I do not dispute that there have been times that they have appeared on the scene, but you have to make up some other name for them, and you have to be patient until they are needed to appear to fulfill something special at some special time in the Lord's own timing. And you may not be lucky to see that in your lifetime. For now, I suggest that you be thankful that you have a system that was established so that people like this can indeed come on the scene with authority to fulfill their duties when they are needed.

I seek no signs. I'm saying that a Prophet Seer and Revelator Will have great spiritual power, and will do what Nephi, Alma, Mosiah, Josepj, Moses did.they pierce the veil, they can translate, they prophesy. If they don't do things that prophets seers and revelators do, then why would they be calledprophets seers or revelators?

Maybe our current leaders do these things, we just don't know.

missionaries teach that there is NO difference between Moses and Joseph Smith, and Joseph Smith and Thomas Monson. If so, then Thomas Monson is a prophet seer and revelator. If he doesn't have great spiritual power, and doesn't exhibit any of the gifts that a prophet seer and revelator is , then he can't be what we claim he is.

The Book of Mormon explains that a seer is even greater than a prophet. It's not just some title that we give to the President.A seer will have a great portion of the Spirit of God, and will do what any other prophet and seer had done in the past.

Why have we changed the definition of a seer? In the past it was a great man like Mosiah and Joseph who could translate and no doubt communed with Jehovah. Now a Seer is an ordinary man who has no more spiritual power than any other man in the church, who receives this title just because he holds a high position in the church?

It seems that you attempt to justify these men having never exhibited these qualities and yet reaffirm that they are still prophets and seers, even if they don't prophesy or translate or reveal.

I'm not even saying they aren't prophets seers or revelators. I'm only talking about what a prophet seer or revelator is.

You don't become a prophet when you receive a calling. You don't become a seer just because you receive a calling. You don't become a revelator just because you receive a calling. Joseph Smith was a prophet and seer before the church was ever organized. Moses didn't have to be ordained and set apart to prophesy.

Just like you can speak in tongues, interpret tongues, prophesy, receive he gift of charity, faith, and knowledge concerning anything by the power of Gods Spirit,you also become a prophet seer or revelator by this same power, there is no other way.

If my leader is called a seer(lower case) only because it's a title , but he's not an actual Seer, why would I follow him? I would rather follow a Seer than a seer. I think a Seer would actually know Gods will, and a seer just holds that title.

If I'm expected to follow a prophet, then that Prophet better be an actual prophet, not just a man who inherited this title because he received a "promotion" in a way.

I'll add here that, if the men who are our current Apostles are "mundane" and have "mundane" powers, and don't exhibit the same gifts that Joseph Moses Enoch, Alma, Nephi, and many others did, then how can we still claim that they are true Prophets and that they are God's mouthpiece?

Would God, the most powerful being in existence, chose a man with "mundane" power who has little spiritual power and no spiritual gifts to be his mouthpiece?

Would he say "this is my mouthpiece, he is a true prophet, but he isn't actually a Prophet, can't prophesy ,see , or reveal and has little spiritual power, yet somehow he has enough spiritual power to be my mouthpiece" It doesn't seem possible, or logical.

If you have reached a point in life where you can be God's mouthpiece, I'm pretty sure you'd have enough spiritual power to perform many other things, like prophesying, seeing, revealing.. makes no sense to me .

Stahura wrote:I'll add here that, if the men who are our current Apostles are "mundane" and have "mundane" powers, and don't exhibit the same gifts that Joseph Moses Enoch, Alma, Nephi, and many others did, then how can we still claim that they are true Prophets and that they are God's mouthpiece?

Would God, the most powerful being in existence, chose a man with "mundane" power who has little spiritual power and no spiritual gifts to be his mouthpiece?

Would he say "this is my mouthpiece, he is a true prophet, but he isn't actually a Prophet, can't prophesy ,see , or reveal and has little spiritual power, yet somehow he has enough spiritual power to be my mouthpiece" It doesn't seem possible, or logical.

If you have reached a point in life where you can be God's mouthpiece, I'm pretty sure you'd have enough spiritual power to perform many other things, like prophesying, seeing, revealing.. makes no sense to me .

If you don't believe they are then I highly suggest you go find true prophets and apostles and if you can't then maybe ask the Lord to give you a JS type experience. You best get going. As for many of us here, we have the revelation that they are who they claim to be, that they hold the keys etc. Since you reject it all, why are you here?? (I don't say that in my snarky voice)

shadow wrote:

Stahura wrote:I'll add here that, if the men who are our current Apostles are "mundane" and have "mundane" powers, and don't exhibit the same gifts that Joseph Moses Enoch, Alma, Nephi, and many others did, then how can we still claim that they are true Prophets and that they are God's mouthpiece?

Would God, the most powerful being in existence, chose a man with "mundane" power who has little spiritual power and no spiritual gifts to be his mouthpiece?

Would he say "this is my mouthpiece, he is a true prophet, but he isn't actually a Prophet, can't prophesy ,see , or reveal and has little spiritual power, yet somehow he has enough spiritual power to be my mouthpiece" It doesn't seem possible, or logical.

If you have reached a point in life where you can be God's mouthpiece, I'm pretty sure you'd have enough spiritual power to perform many other things, like prophesying, seeing, revealing.. makes no sense to me .

If you don't believe they are then I highly suggest you go find true prophets and apostles and if you can't then maybe ask the Lord to give you a JS type experience. You best get going. As for many of us here, we have the revelation that they are who they claim to be, that they hold the keys etc. Since you reject it all, why are you here?? (I don't say that in my snarky voice)

Read everything I said buddy.

I specifically stated that I'm not saying that they aren't prophets seers or revelators.
I'm only speaking about the CONCEPT of Prophet's seers and revelators,and what prophets seers and revelators are.

I have never rejected them, I sustain them. I have stated that many times. In this specific thread I clarified that I'm not saying they aren't prophets seers and revelators. I'm not speaking about them at all. I'm talking about the Words Prophet, Seer, Revelator, and how one becomes a prophet, seer,or revelator.

I have faith and hope that each one of the first presidency and quorum of the 12 have all become true prophets, seers, and revelators by the power of God's Spirit.

I'm not foolish enough to reject them and call them false prophets if I haven't received knowledge concerning them. I'd never do that, I never have.