LDS Freedom Forum

Stahura wrote:
Read everything I said buddy.

Stahura wrote:
I seek no signs. I'm saying that a Prophet Seer and Revelator Will have great spiritual power, and will do what Nephi, Alma, Mosiah, Josepj, Moses did.they pierce the veil, they can translate, they prophesy. If they don't do things that prophets seers and revelators do, then why would they be called prophets seers or revelators?

Stahura wrote: Maybe our current leaders do these things, we just don't know.

Stahura wrote: missionaries teach that there is NO difference between Moses and Joseph Smith, and Joseph Smith and Thomas Monson. If so, then Thomas Monson is a prophet seer and revelator. If he doesn't have great spiritual power, and doesn't exhibit any of the gifts that a prophet seer and revelator is , then he can't be what we claim he is.

Stahura wrote: The Book of Mormon explains that a seer is even greater than a prophet. It's not just some title that we give to the President.A seer will have a great portion of the Spirit of God, and will do what any other prophet and seer had done in the past.

EdGoble wrote:

Stahura wrote:
I seek no signs. I'm saying that a Prophet Seer and Revelator Will have great spiritual power, and will do what Nephi, Alma, Mosiah, Josepj, Moses did.they pierce the veil, they can translate, they prophesy. If they don't do things that prophets seers and revelators do, then why would they be called prophets seers or revelators?

Did everything I said go in one ear and out the other? I guess you don't understand the concept of a title. Or you are unwilling to accept it. Either way, the conversation has come to a dead stop and is not productive. If what I said doesn't suffice, there is nothing else to be said. Have it your way in your own mind then. If you are rejecting the prophets over this, then you are spiritually blind to their calling, and unwilling to submit to the Lord's anointed just because they don't fit your personal definition that you suppose. In essence, because they are not fantastic enough for you, then they aren't real. Sorry. I can't help you with that. That is your personal belief then, and we disagree.

Stahura wrote: Maybe our current leaders do these things, we just don't know.

I can assure you that if you are looking to see these things according to your definition, you will be disappointed until someone appears that fits your personal sign seeking. Sorry. Yes. You are indeed sign seeking to not give them their due because you do not see signs.

Stahura wrote: missionaries teach that there is NO difference between Moses and Joseph Smith, and Joseph Smith and Thomas Monson. If so, then Thomas Monson is a prophet seer and revelator. If he doesn't have great spiritual power, and doesn't exhibit any of the gifts that a prophet seer and revelator is , then he can't be what we claim he is.

Don't lecture me on what missionaries teach. I was one. I know what missionaries teach, and I know what reality is versus TBM mythology. Please don't seek to lecture me. You can either accept reality and submit to the Lord's anointed and give them their due, or you can kick against the pricks and go down in darkness. Those are your two choices. And I suggest that you choose the first option if you yourself want your OWN power to pierce the veil, because being out of harmony with the true messengers will NEVER result in your OWN ABILITY to pierce the veil. It is PREREQUISITE. I suggest you stop worrying about other people's power or percieved lack thereof, and concentrate on your own.

Stahura wrote: The Book of Mormon explains that a seer is even greater than a prophet. It's not just some title that we give to the President.A seer will have a great portion of the Spirit of God, and will do what any other prophet and seer had done in the past.

So, you are indeed not willing to ascribe to them power until you see with your own eyes. You are indeed a seeker of signs. You want to see the exercise of great spiritual gifts, but you will not worry about your own beam in your own eye, before you worry about the spiritual gifts of the key-holders. I suggest you repent and get in line, and start acquiring your own spiritual power, and forget about this line of reasoning. This is not a productive line of reasoning, but will only lead to personal apostasy. It looks like you have been infected by Snufferite and other apostate types of reasoning, and are unwilling to submit yourself to the Lord's anointed, and you are breaking covenants already when you have covenanted not to speak evil of them. You cannot be a covenant breaker and pierce the veil yourself. I suggest you repent speedily of this line of reasoning.

EdGoble wrote:
So, you are indeed not willing to ascribe to them power until you see with your own eyes. You are indeed a seeker of signs. You want to see the exercise of great spiritual gifts, but you will not worry about your own beam in your own eye, before you worry about the spiritual gifts of the key-holders. I suggest you repent and get in line, and start acquiring your own spiritual power, and forget about this line of reasoning. This is not a productive line of reasoning, but will only lead to personal apostasy. It looks like you have been infected by Snufferite and other apostate types of reasoning, and are unwilling to submit yourself to the Lord's anointed, and you are breaking covenants already when you have covenanted not to speak evil of them. You cannot be a covenant breaker and pierce the veil yourself. I suggest you repent speedily of this line of reasoning.

EdGoble wrote:

Stahura wrote: 4.These men somehow transform into prophets, seers, and revelators when they are promoted to the position of Apostle?
Being the President of The Church doesn't make you a prophet. Being ordained by another man doesn't make you a prophet. Experiences between you and God, your broken heart and your repentance are what lead you to become a prophet.(In no way am I criticizing them, they all very well could be true Apostles and Prophets. It's just that there is an attitude in the Church that this ordination makes them become prophets seers and revelators. This is incorrect.If they are true Apostles and Prophets, they became prophets through their own diligence, either before their ordination, or some time after.)

I am anything but a regular TBM. I am a temple worker that has been the equivalent of a so-called "Internet Mormon" going on 29 years after my "faith crisis" in my early teens, when I came to find out that my karate teacher was an anti-Mormon and I had to deal with all of the issues people are confronted with now on the internet at a very young age in the mind 1980's.

The problem is, you are quite wrong about this, that they are only prophets through their own diligence. They increase in spirituality naturally through their own diligence. But that doesn't stop them from getting the inspiration they are entitled to for their calling in order to perform in their callings, even from the VERY FIRST DAY OF THEIR ORDINATION AND SETTING APART. So, I simply cant express to you how wrong I believe you are on that point. Any guy off the street that is a moderately spiritual mormon that has had answers to prayers before, that is suddenly thrown into a position of leadership, even if he was made into the President of the Church, would instantly have the Lord qualifying him for the job he has been thrust into. Whom the Lord calls, he qualifies, regardless of one's level of spirituality. You just happen to be better at it with experience.

EdGoble wrote:

Stahura wrote:
Okay I like those scriptures

I can see what you mean. But I don't think that the Lord will turn them into prophets seers and revelators just because they received a calling.

Bare with me for a moment.

Anybody can become a prophet or a seer if they repent sufficiently. As time goes by they will receive more and more of the Lords light until they receive a fullness(D&C 93)

To suggest that God just qualifies these men and turns them into seers and revelators because they received a calling makes me think that getting certain callings in the church are in a way, "shortcuts."
You can either pray and repent and diligently seek into you receive power and gifts from God, or just be a faithful member and eventually receive a high calling and God qualifies you and gives you what another person will only get through much repentance and prayer and fasting.

Do you see where I'm coming from?

I believe the Lord gives them something , something to help them. I have no doubt he blesses them. But I don't think they can become prophets seers and revelators unless they do what Nephi and Alma did, fast, pray for days, receive power from on high , pierce the veil etc.

I do see what you are coming from, but I think that you are arguing over semantics, and you need to think hard about what you are really wanting and hoping for, and the difference between that and mundane reality. I think that you are arguing for an ideal that you will see sometimes and not at other times. What you really would like to see, so it seems, is men of immense, out of the ordinary spiritual power that occupy positions of trust and influence, like Enoch, who could do great miracles and so forth. I think that you are looking for the fantastic and the idealistic, and I'm hopeful that you are not sign-seeking because of this. I do not dispute that at times in history, men like these have occupied the leadership positions. But you seem to forget that not all men have the same spiritual gifts, and in some people, spiritual gifts that they do have are nascent and undeveloped. Not all men have the burning in the bosom, even though it is touted as a common way to get revelation. But some people get it in other ways. Not all men have the gift of prophecy even if they are entitled, because it is undeveloped. Some regular men have to occupy mantles of authority until some time in history arrives for other out of the ordinary men to take their place who have a "great work" to do. Then these types of men that you refer to do appear in the time they are needed. Joseph Smith was one of them. Moses was one of them. The two witnesses of the last days during Armageddon will be a couple of others. But these types of men are the exception, not the rule, to the men that occupy these seats of authority. Most of the time, they are very ordinary. When the time comes for the "Second Great Work," some will occupy these positions of authority who have great spiritual power. Here is the report from Deseret News on August 16 1878, quoting David Whitmer:

Q- When will the temple be built? (referring to Jackson County Temple)
A- Right after the great tribulation is over.

Q- What do you mean by that?
A- A civil war more bloody and cruel than the rebellion. (first civil
war) It will be a smashing up of this nation, about which time the SECOND GREAT WORK has to be done, a work like Joseph did, and the translation of the sealed plates, and peace all over.”

You see, here is what I perceive as a flaw in your logic: you think that someone to be a prophet, seer and revelator, that they have to have fantastic spiritual power. It is not uncommon for these people to have appeared in history, and they have their place, but normally the Lord has them appear on the scene when some GREAT WORK has to be done or accomplished, at some time in the history of the Church when great changes are at hand in rapid succession, not at a time when there is kind of a "regular" or "mundane" type of thing, like is happening now. And these types of men with great , extraordinary spiritual power are not given a separate title from those who are "regular" people. They are all prophets, seers and revelators, regardless of their power level, just by virtue of their office. So, if you want to see more of these types, you have to either hope you live to see Armageddon or the Second Great work, because it will be kind of boring for you in the meantime with the regular Joe's that simply fulfill their callings as they are commanded. Because those types of people are only put in place by the Lord for more extraordinary junctures in history than the one we live in. If you want, you can make up some name for these types, but prophet, seer and revelator are titles reserved for offices, not for people with out of the ordinary power. I do not dispute that there have been times that they have appeared on the scene, but you have to make up some other name for them, and you have to be patient until they are needed to appear to fulfill something special at some special time in the Lord's own timing. And you may not be lucky to see that in your lifetime. For now, I suggest that you be thankful that you have a system that was established so that people like this can indeed come on the scene with authority to fulfill their duties when they are needed.

I suggest that you could make up a title for these men such as "Great Power Prophets" or something to distinguish them from regular prophets seers and revelators, because you will seldom see these guys until the Lord needs them for something special and out of the ordinary. But when they do come, the will occupy the SAME MANTLE as the ordinary guys. But you are wrong if you think ordinary guys cannot hold the titles that come with their offices. And you need to remember that these Great Power Prophets only appear on the scene for special work, not for ordinary times. And even then, that is according to the Lord's timing, not for us to see these if we are seeking for signs to consume upon our lusts. So my suggestion is that you accept that prophet seer and revelator is a name that goes along with an office, and these things are not necessarily descriptive of the thing you want to describe, and you ought to have a different name for it. I don't deny that what you want to see has existed in history.

It is not uncommon in the history of our Church for these men of great power to have to step in and reform things that are not exactly in order. But that kind of thing also happens according to the Lord's timing, when the Lord decides its time for things to be set in order. Until then, we need to have patience with the regular guys occupying the seats of authority.

Stahura wrote: Note I am not criticizing the Church, or it's leaders. I only speak of incorrect things that are taught and embraced by some people within this church.

1.Being baptized and confirmed means you are born again? How often have I heard this is baptism meetings for 8 year olds and converts?"Thomas, 5 minutes from now, you will be born again, starting a new life with the Spirit as your companion"... Read the Book of Mormon and the Bible, the doctrine of Christ is contained within. How many people believe they are born again when they actually have never received the baptism of fire and a remission of sins? I wasn't born again until I was 20 years old, when I cried out unto the Lord and asked Jesus Christ to have mercy on me. I was confirmed when I was 8. I received the Spirit when I was 20.
Jesus told the Apostles to receive the Holy Ghost at the end of John, but they didn't receive the gift of Holy Ghost/Baptism of Fire until Acts 2.

Alma 7:14
Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again; for the Spirit saith if ye are not born again ye cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins, that ye may have faith on the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world, who is mighty to save and to cleanse from all unrighteousness.

Here it teaches the BASIC principle of being born again. Where is the heresy?


2.Being baptized and confirmed in this church will get you to the celestial kingdom as long as you "endure to the end"( This attitude of "If don't commit adultery and any other bad sin until I die, I will enter the Celestial Kingdom'), and nobody else will?
That gives you the right to mock and scorn others, pointing at them telling them they are ungodly?
Enduring to the end is MUCH more than just not committing grave sins and paying tithing until you die..

Not sure where this is taught, I didn't learn it the described.

3.God can't reveal any new mysteries to a normal person unless it's been revealed to a General Authority of the Church?
I don't even need to explain this one. This man made philosophy quenches the gifts of the Spirit and denies the gift of God.
God is no respecter of persons. To believe Number 3 is the believe God respects GA's more than normal members.

Again, Not sure where this is taught, I didn't learn it the way you described.

4.These men somehow transform into prophets, seers, and revelators when they are promoted to the position of Apostle?
Being the President of The Church doesn't make you a prophet. Being ordained by another man doesn't make you a prophet. Experiences between you and God, your broken heart and your repentance are what lead you to become a prophet.(In no way am I criticizing them, they all very well could be true Apostles and Prophets. It's just that there is an attitude in the Church that this ordination makes them become prophets seers and revelators. This is incorrect.If they are true Apostles and Prophets, they became prophets through their own diligence, either before their ordination, or some time after.)

Again there seems to be some generalization going on.
God qualifies whom he calls! The Keys that are given through Ordination do mean that the powers that are associated with those keys are given.

5.That missionaries magically gain a mantle of authority when they are ordained by another priesthood holder. Again, this is between that missionary and God. They will receive power to speak and preach by the Holy Ghost, and this will happen through their repentance, having a broken heart and contrite Spirit. The Spirit giveth utterance. The Prophets in the scriptures had to cry night and day, fast for days, pray for hours on end, speaking with Angels and God himself before they received power to do the things they did. Now in our day, we only need to be ordained by another man and sent into the MTC? How convenient that would be.

Magically ? I never thought it would be magic, It was taught that I would have to learn before I could teach...that was a long time ago!
I was also taught daily that it was the Spirit that was the true teacher. I was to do my best, the Lord would make up for my weakness, IF I was worthy.

6. That angels seem to never appear, nobody speaks in tongues nowadays, very rarely are the dead raised, nobody that is lame rises and walk, the eyes of the blind aren't opened, and this all has ceased because it "isn't God's will"
These things have ceased because of a lack of faith. No other reason. The Book of Mormon spoke of this. Yes God's will is important. I'm willing to bet that more often than not, God wants the dead person to rise, he wants the blind to see, but we don't have enough faith to make it happen.

This sounds very much like an opinion held, rather than doctrine taught.
I haven't heard or been taught this.

7.
Again go to my opening statement. Heresy, no.
Lack of understanding and so many of us "saints' at various levels of spiritual growth. We each still have much to learn.



Fill in the blank. There are other things I've heard members embrace that are simply not true.
What other "heresies" are there?

I don't say these things to persecute and judge anyone. These things have been confirmed to me through much prayer and searching. To believe the things on this list is to hold fast to unbelief. It's impossible to have faith and unbelief at the same time.
I'm not claiming that the Church leaders teach false doctrine, that this is their fault, that they aren't Apostles. None of this. I'm not attacking the church. I'm attacking half truths/philosophies that are embraced by people within the church.

My purpose here has always been to learn, and consider things that I haven't considered. I don't want any unbelief do keep me from my Savior. Cast away any false traditions and hold fast to that which is good.
My other purpose is to help others. This forum is a way for us to preach the Gospel, to warn our neighbor, to reason with each other and come to understand truths that we previously didn't understand.

I have no doubt that there are those that will be unhappy with this post. They will tell me I attack the brethren, that I'm ungodly, deceitful etc. Perhaps I'm incorrect on some points. Show me, I'll prayerfully consider.

I also know that the truth hurts, and the wicked become angry and upset when they are confronted with the truth. The Righteous love the truth, and embrace it, and adopt it into their lives.

I love my Savior, I'm grateful for this church which was Restored by Joseph Smith, a true prophet. I sustain our current leaders First Presidency and Quorum of 12 Apostles, and hope to learn from them when I can re-read their talks from Conference. I hope receive spiritual knowledge one day that they are true messengers. Until then, I will continue knocking and asking.

P.S if this makes any "TBM's" feel any better, my Mission President, a man with authority and priesthood keys confirmed my opinions when I approached him with my thoughts.

BTH&T wrote:I really think Heresy is much too strong of a word for this topic.
There most certainly are as many understandings of the Gospel as there are people with an opinion.
Timing, education, spiritual knowledge all come into play in the level of understanding we each have.
Most importantly, what the Spirit has taught us. It's not that truth is different, it' that our level of understanding has increased.
The scriptures "line upon line" and "milk before meat" are appropriate.

Stahura wrote: Note I am not criticizing the Church, or it's leaders. I only speak of incorrect things that are taught and embraced by some people within this church.

1.Being baptized and confirmed means you are born again? How often have I heard this is baptism meetings for 8 year olds and converts?"Thomas, 5 minutes from now, you will be born again, starting a new life with the Spirit as your companion"... Read the Book of Mormon and the Bible, the doctrine of Christ is contained within. How many people believe they are born again when they actually have never received the baptism of fire and a remission of sins? I wasn't born again until I was 20 years old, when I cried out unto the Lord and asked Jesus Christ to have mercy on me. I was confirmed when I was 8. I received the Spirit when I was 20.
Jesus told the Apostles to receive the Holy Ghost at the end of John, but they didn't receive the gift of Holy Ghost/Baptism of Fire until Acts 2.

Alma 7:14
Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again; for the Spirit saith if ye are not born again ye cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins, that ye may have faith on the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world, who is mighty to save and to cleanse from all unrighteousness.

Here it teaches the BASIC principle of being born again. Where is the heresy?


2.Being baptized and confirmed in this church will get you to the celestial kingdom as long as you "endure to the end"( This attitude of "If don't commit adultery and any other bad sin until I die, I will enter the Celestial Kingdom'), and nobody else will?
That gives you the right to mock and scorn others, pointing at them telling them they are ungodly?
Enduring to the end is MUCH more than just not committing grave sins and paying tithing until you die..

Not sure where this is taught, I didn't learn it the described.

3.God can't reveal any new mysteries to a normal person unless it's been revealed to a General Authority of the Church?
I don't even need to explain this one. This man made philosophy quenches the gifts of the Spirit and denies the gift of God.
God is no respecter of persons. To believe Number 3 is the believe God respects GA's more than normal members.

Again, Not sure where this is taught, I didn't learn it the way you described.

4.These men somehow transform into prophets, seers, and revelators when they are promoted to the position of Apostle?
Being the President of The Church doesn't make you a prophet. Being ordained by another man doesn't make you a prophet. Experiences between you and God, your broken heart and your repentance are what lead you to become a prophet.(In no way am I criticizing them, they all very well could be true Apostles and Prophets. It's just that there is an attitude in the Church that this ordination makes them become prophets seers and revelators. This is incorrect.If they are true Apostles and Prophets, they became prophets through their own diligence, either before their ordination, or some time after.)

Again there seems to be some generalization going on.
God qualifies whom he calls! The Keys that are given through Ordination do mean that the powers that are associated with those keys are given.

5.That missionaries magically gain a mantle of authority when they are ordained by another priesthood holder. Again, this is between that missionary and God. They will receive power to speak and preach by the Holy Ghost, and this will happen through their repentance, having a broken heart and contrite Spirit. The Spirit giveth utterance. The Prophets in the scriptures had to cry night and day, fast for days, pray for hours on end, speaking with Angels and God himself before they received power to do the things they did. Now in our day, we only need to be ordained by another man and sent into the MTC? How convenient that would be.

Magically ? I never thought it would be magic, It was taught that I would have to learn before I could teach...that was a long time ago!
I was also taught daily that it was the Spirit that was the true teacher. I was to do my best, the Lord would make up for my weakness, IF I was worthy.

6. That angels seem to never appear, nobody speaks in tongues nowadays, very rarely are the dead raised, nobody that is lame rises and walk, the eyes of the blind aren't opened, and this all has ceased because it "isn't God's will"
These things have ceased because of a lack of faith. No other reason. The Book of Mormon spoke of this. Yes God's will is important. I'm willing to bet that more often than not, God wants the dead person to rise, he wants the blind to see, but we don't have enough faith to make it happen.

This sounds very much like an opinion held, rather than doctrine taught.
I haven't heard or been taught this.

7.
Again go to my opening statement. Heresy, no.
Lack of understanding and so many of us "saints' at various levels of spiritual growth. We each still have much to learn.



Fill in the blank. There are other things I've heard members embrace that are simply not true.
What other "heresies" are there?

I don't say these things to persecute and judge anyone. These things have been confirmed to me through much prayer and searching. To believe the things on this list is to hold fast to unbelief. It's impossible to have faith and unbelief at the same time.
I'm not claiming that the Church leaders teach false doctrine, that this is their fault, that they aren't Apostles. None of this. I'm not attacking the church. I'm attacking half truths/philosophies that are embraced by people within the church.

My purpose here has always been to learn, and consider things that I haven't considered. I don't want any unbelief do keep me from my Savior. Cast away any false traditions and hold fast to that which is good.
My other purpose is to help others. This forum is a way for us to preach the Gospel, to warn our neighbor, to reason with each other and come to understand truths that we previously didn't understand.

I have no doubt that there are those that will be unhappy with this post. They will tell me I attack the brethren, that I'm ungodly, deceitful etc. Perhaps I'm incorrect on some points. Show me, I'll prayerfully consider.

I also know that the truth hurts, and the wicked become angry and upset when they are confronted with the truth. The Righteous love the truth, and embrace it, and adopt it into their lives.

I love my Savior, I'm grateful for this church which was Restored by Joseph Smith, a true prophet. I sustain our current leaders First Presidency and Quorum of 12 Apostles, and hope to learn from them when I can re-read their talks from Conference. I hope receive spiritual knowledge one day that they are true messengers. Until then, I will continue knocking and asking.

P.S if this makes any "TBM's" feel any better, my Mission President, a man with authority and priesthood keys confirmed my opinions when I approached him with my thoughts.

Not unhappy nor disappointed with this topic. Gave me a chance to give my thoughts on the subject.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is OUR SAVIOR'S Church. I am so grateful it has been restored and that we have Prophets/Apostles that have the Priesthood Keys. God Loves us, he has to, we mess things up so much and He is sill there.

Stahura wrote: My friend, when I have time I'll read this and reply what word would you replace heresy with? Is there a way to edit thread titles?

BTH&T wrote:

Stahura wrote: My friend, when I have time I'll read this and reply what word would you replace heresy with? Is there a way to edit thread titles?

misconstrued, naive, unlearned

Go to OP and retype to adjust header

Stahura wrote:

BTH&T wrote:

Stahura wrote: My friend, when I have time I'll read this and reply what word would you replace heresy with? Is there a way to edit thread titles?

misconstrued, naive, unlearned

Go to OP and retype to adjust header

How's that

Stahura wrote:I have never rejected them, I sustain them. I have stated that many times. In this specific thread I clarified that I'm not saying they aren't prophets seers and revelators. I'm not speaking about them at all. I'm talking about the Words Prophet, Seer, Revelator, and how one becomes a prophet, seer,or revelator.

I have faith and hope that each one of the first presidency and quorum of the 12 have all become true prophets, seers, and revelators by the power of God's Spirit.

I'm not foolish enough to reject them and call them false prophets if I haven't received knowledge concerning them. I'd never do that, I never have.

You don't become a prophet when you receive a calling. You don't become a seer just because you receive a calling. You don't become a revelator just because you receive a calling. Joseph Smith was a prophet and seer before the church was ever organized. Moses didn't have to be ordained and set apart to prophesy.

Just like you can speak in tongues, interpret tongues, prophesy, receive he gift of charity, faith, and knowledge concerning anything by the power of Gods Spirit,you also become a prophet seer or revelator by this same power, there is no other way.

If my leader is called a seer(lower case) only because it's a title , but he's not an actual Seer, why would I follow him? I would rather follow a Seer than a seer. I think a Seer would actually know Gods will, and a seer just holds that title.

I'll add here that, if the men who are our current Apostles are "mundane" and have "mundane" powers, and don't exhibit the same gifts that Joseph Moses Enoch, Alma, Nephi, and many others did, then how can we still claim that they are true Prophets and that they are God's mouthpiece?

Would God, the most powerful being in existence, chose a man with "mundane" power who has little spiritual power and no spiritual gifts to be his mouthpiece?

Would he say "this is my mouthpiece, he is a true prophet, but he isn't actually a Prophet, can't prophesy ,see , or reveal and has little spiritual power, yet somehow he has enough spiritual power to be my mouthpiece" It doesn't seem possible, or logical.

If you have reached a point in life where you can be God's mouthpiece, I'm pretty sure you'd have enough spiritual power to perform many other things, like prophesying, seeing, revealing.. makes no sense to me .

minorityofone wrote:You mention seers a lot. Wasn't Moroni and the Book of Mormon very clear on what a seer was? Someone in the possession of, and actually using seer stones or the urim and thummim? So I guess we could reasonably be looking for that at least as far as seers go, according to those scriptures if they were true. Do you believe any president since Joseph smith has had and used seer stones?

minorityofone wrote: So you seem to be saying doctrine and covenants 121 is wrong, because it clearly states that many are called and the lord does not magically qualify them. In fact it seems to state that most of those called would only suppose they had authority and then amen to their priesthood... So if you read your comment you will see that your comment is way out of harmony with section 121. Not saying I care if you believe section 121 but I am guessing you might...

Stahura wrote:It's almost too hard to bear the amount of judgement and ridicule that comes from TBM's. It honestly hurts sometimes.

EdGoble wrote:

Stahura wrote:It's almost too hard to bear the amount of judgement and ridicule that comes from TBM's. It honestly hurts sometimes.

I'm sorry what I said was hurtful in some way. Let's start over again then. You are calling me a TBM. To me, TBM means that I am a Chapel Mormon, unconversant with issues, and blindly and unquestioningly following, where I have an unsophisticated faith. I suggest that you stop using that, for one, when referring to people with sophisticated worldviews and complex faith, but who have deep relationships with the deep manifestations of the Holy Ghost, but who make no particular claims of themselves, but who just happen to be exceedingly zealous in their loyalty to the Brethren. TBM doesn't describe it.

What would you have me make of your words? You say that you sustain them. You say that you are not trying to undermine them. Then what are you saying what you are saying for? Let's start over again then. What are you trying to say? You send me these private messages, and you would have me believe that you sustain and follow guys that you are saying that they have to have something special to be truly qualified. I don't get it then. What are you trying to say if I have not understood?

I perceive lack of loyalty and lack of submission and lack of willingness to sacrifice your own interests in order to follow them in your words. I perceive a lack of willingness to set aside whatever you are trying to prove to have a less than 100% loyalty to the Brethren in your words. If your words are trying to portray something else, then I'm not getting it. You can't have it one way and then tell me it is another. What is your purpose in this thread if you don't mean what you say? If I'm judging, then I don't get it, because if you don't mean what you say, then you need to restructure what you say.

Stahura wrote:It's almost too hard to bear the amount of judgement and ridicule that comes from TBM's. It honestly hurts sometimes.

Stahura wrote: I sustain the brethren. As far as I know and unless God shows me otherwise, I will believe.

One thing you say is correct, I don't have a sense of loyalty to our leaders. I'm loyal only to Jesus Christ, and I'll follow his true messengers.

You seemed to have been saying that our current leaders DO NOT have great spiritual power , and aren't capable of doing what Joseph,Moses, and any other prophet did. You seem to be saying that even though we call them Seer's , it's only a title,and only every once in awhile a prophet comes that can do what Joseph Moses Mosiah Alma and Nephi did.

What I'm saying is, if our leaders are true messengers(I believe and hope they are) and are Prophets and Seer's, then they SHOULD have great spiritual power and can perform the same tasks that other prophets have done.having the ability to do so is different from actually doing it. I only say they need the ability to do these things. Do I have to see these miracles and prophecies and revealed truths? No,I don't need to see anything.im not a sign seeker.But If they don't have this power, they couldn't be actual Seer's and Prophets. If they aren't actual Seer's and prophets , why would God ask me to follow them? They can't be his mouthpiece if they aren't even capable of doing anything that prophets and Seer's do.

Because I have been taught, I follow, under one condition. That they are true messengers. If God reveals to me that they aren't, I will not follow.
The day that God reveals to me by the power of the Holy Ghost, I will declare it and stand up and tell everybody what I know.

Until then, I sustain them, and seek an answer.