3 New Apostles Called

[Zathura]

I know what revelation from heaven is like. It is far more powerful than a warm feeling, a comfortable sweet spirit, or an emotion. I have no idea if you have experienced a real revelation. Maybe you had a warm fuzzy when you thought about T Monson, so you assume that's a heaven sent confirmation he's a PRS. If so, God help you.

I add my voice to this. Real Revelation is more than a warm fuzzy. If it was, then according to my "warm fuzzys" Denver Snuffer, Rock Waterman, "Spencer", and a Born Again Christian Pastor I once heard are all true prophets.

I know that some of the things all of those people have said are true. They have taught some sound doctrine. Do i truly know if any of those men are true messengers? No I don't. I haven't received a revelation concerning them.
Do I know if Thomas Monson is a true Prophet? Not yet, I'm still seeking.

Real Revelation is incredibly powerful, undeniable.

[EmmaLee]

It is just a matter of time before we see an apostle ... from outside the USA.

We already have an apostle from outside the USA. Pres. Uchtdorf was born in (what is now) the Czech Republic and was raised in Germany.

[shadow]

I know what revelation from heaven is like. It is far more powerful than a warm feeling, a comfortable sweet spirit, or an emotion. I have no idea if you have experienced a real revelation. Maybe you had a warm fuzzy when you thought about T Monson, so you assume that's a heaven sent confirmation he's a PRS. If so, God help you.

I add my voice to this. Real Revelation is more than a warm fuzzy. If it was, then according to my "warm fuzzys" Denver Snuffer, Rock Waterman, "Spencer", and a Born Again Christian Pastor I once heard are all true prophets.

I know that some of the things all of those people have said are true. They have taught some sound doctrine. Do i truly know if any of those men are true messengers? No I don't. I haven't received a revelation concerning them.
Do I know if Thomas Monson is a true Prophet? Not yet, I'm still seeking.

Real Revelation is incredibly powerful, undeniable.

I never claimed revelation was a warm fuzzy. My revelation was, from the get go, that snuffer, waterman, and others were Wolves. Discernment is also revelation.

And yes, real revelation is undeniable. Do I know that Thomas Monson is a true Prophet? Absolutely!

[Serragon]

Demanding that the Quorum of the 12 reflect some level of economic, racial, or cultural diversity is applying the standards of man to something Godly.

I personally believe that the selection process could be more inclusive. However, I know that to be MY standard and not that of the Lord. It in no way invalidates the validity of the current quorum.

Every member of the quorum could be from the same block of the same town. As long as they are humble servants of the Lord they will be acceptable apostles unto Him.

[Thinker]

I know what revelation from heaven is like. It is far more powerful than a warm feeling, a comfortable sweet spirit, or an emotion. I have no idea if you have experienced a real revelation. Maybe you had a warm fuzzy when you thought about T Monson, so you assume that's a heaven sent confirmation he's a PRS. If so, God help you.

I add my voice to this. Real Revelation is more than a warm fuzzy. If it was, then according to my "warm fuzzys" Denver Snuffer, Rock Waterman, "Spencer", and a Born Again Christian Pastor I once heard are all true prophets.

I know that some of the things all of those people have said are true. They have taught some sound doctrine. Do i truly know if any of those men are true messengers? No I don't. I haven't received a revelation concerning them.
Do I know if Thomas Monson is a true Prophet? Not yet, I'm still seeking.

Real Revelation is incredibly powerful, undeniable.

Good points.
Emotions are important in discerning spiritually, but they can't be trusted by themselves.
God's given us brains to us - to search, study it out, ponder and then pray.

For a long time I equated my emotion AND my interpretation of that emotion as if the spirit was giving me such detailed confirmation.
Then I realized that sometimes my own desires or fears can misguide me, so it is essential to use common sense and a sense of morality along with any feelings.

It's amazing and a little scarey how some blindly put trust in people they don't even know - never met! Some practically make them their own gods so that if anybody points out sin in them, they take it as a personal attack and attack back.
They have no idea if the speeches they give are even written by them, or someone else (as applied to one of the 70) my friend worked for. Still, they don't know them enough to know if their actions are godly, except financially it's obvious. "By their fruits ye shall know them."

[boo]

Gordon B. Hinckley never had a great wealth of cash stashed away. He wasn't "rich" by any standard. Neither was Thomas S. Monson.

Neither was Spencer Kimball. He was a very non-"wealthy" insurance salesman from a small Arizona town.

Thank Emma for making my point. Pres Kimball wore threadbare suits when he was President. How do I know ? I know because my family members helped get him a new one. On a personal note Pres Kimball and my grandmother use to sing duets together in the 6 th grade and I have visited him on multiple occasions. Pres Hinckley was far more affluent than you know. How do I know ? I was one of his sons roommates for a while. Pres Monson has 3 homes the total value of which now probably exceeds $ 1,000,000. ( just did a Zillow search on all three). How do I know ? It is a matter of public record on the SL County Assessors web site. Maybe that shouldn't concern you or me but at least we should know the truth. Pres Packard who had worked all of his life for the church owned a 5000 sq ft house on 2 acres that was valued by the County assessor at $ 2,000,000 . Lets us speak the truth when we say church leaders don't have great ( by my standards anyway its great) wealth. They do . Maybe this doesn't and shouldn't make any difference . I am only pointing out it is a change from a church president whose wife mended his suits to today's millionaire church leaders. Despite what you guys would like to believe everything I have said is true ,You can look a little bit and in a hour confirm it. But it is clear that you can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink

[shadow]

The horse isn't thirsty and doesn't think the liquid you led it to is anything special. It seems you care more about money than others but that's your choice I guess.

[shadow]

So Shadow do you at least concede that what I wrote was true ?

Riddle me this- if you knew Christ called those three as apostles, would you be posting the same posts?

[Jason]

Gordon B. Hinckley never had a great wealth of cash stashed away. He wasn't "rich" by any standard. Neither was Thomas S. Monson.

Neither was Spencer Kimball. He was a very non-"wealthy" insurance salesman from a small Arizona town.

Thank Emma for making my point. Pres Kimball wore threadbare suits when he was President. How do I know ? I know because my family members helped get him a new one. On a personal note Pres Kimball and my grandmother use to sing duets together in the 6 th grade and I have visited him on multiple occasions. Pres Hinckley was far more affluent than you know. How do I know ? I was one of his sons roommates for a while. Pres Monson has 3 homes the total value of which now probably exceeds $ 1,000,000. ( just did a Zillow search on all three). How do I know ? It is a matter of public record on the SL County Assessors web site. Maybe that shouldn't concern you or me but at least we should know the truth. Pres Packard who had worked all of his life for the church owned a 5000 sq ft house on 2 acres that was valued by the County assessor at $ 2,000,000 . Lets us speak the truth when we say church leaders don't have great ( by my standards anyway its great) wealth. They do . Maybe this doesn't and shouldn't make any difference . I am only pointing out it is a change from a church president whose wife mended his suits to today's millionaire church leaders. Despite what you guys would like to believe everything I have said is true ,You can look a little bit and in a hour confirm it. But it is clear that you can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink

If you looked them up...why would you say "probably"? Just curious...

I know of a multi millionaire in San Diego who bagged groceries for a living for most of his adult life before finally moving to department management. He made his wealth while bagging groceries. He happened to purchase a home at the right time and then when other homes on his street came up for sale he purchased them and rented them out. Mowed the lawns, did his own maintenance, watched his properties on the way to work and on the way home. Something went wrong...he spotted it quickly and rectified it himself. He was also righteous and didn't cheat on his wife or other such nonsense and thus never went through divorce or other such divestiture of assets. Also was conservative by nature and quick to save and slow to spend. And truth be known was favored of the Lord to a large degree for very good obedience reasons. Are we to hold it against him?

Is there anybody in this country today who's wives mend their suits? Particularly when it costs more to dry clean a suit a couple of times over purchasing another?

[Jason]

I know what revelation from heaven is like. It is far more powerful than a warm feeling, a comfortable sweet spirit, or an emotion. I have no idea if you have experienced a real revelation. Maybe you had a warm fuzzy when you thought about T Monson, so you assume that's a heaven sent confirmation he's a PRS. If so, God help you.

I add my voice to this. Real Revelation is more than a warm fuzzy. If it was, then according to my "warm fuzzys" Denver Snuffer, Rock Waterman, "Spencer", and a Born Again Christian Pastor I once heard are all true prophets.

I know that some of the things all of those people have said are true. They have taught some sound doctrine. Do i truly know if any of those men are true messengers? No I don't. I haven't received a revelation concerning them.
Do I know if Thomas Monson is a true Prophet? Not yet, I'm still seeking.

Real Revelation is incredibly powerful, undeniable.

I never claimed revelation was a warm fuzzy. My revelation was, from the get go, that snuffer, waterman, and others were Wolves. Discernment is also revelation.

And yes, real revelation is undeniable. Do I know that Thomas Monson is a true Prophet? Absolutely!

Amen and amen! Great thread about wolves...think it got locked down some time back. Pretty much spot on as the "history" has unfolded on these folks...

Beware of false prophets
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Wolves and Sheep
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21761&p=267017" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Magus]

Hey Boo, you might want to check out the apostles of Christ during his ministry. Where were they from? Were any of them related to each other? I'll wait for your answers.

Shadow, your point is taken and is certainly valid - but it doesn't invalidate the criticisms boo has made, imo.

[Magus]

So Shadow do you at least concede that what I wrote was true ?

Riddle me this- if you knew Christ called those three as apostles, would you be posting the same posts?

I think regardless of whether or not Christ called them, the question is - it's relevant to know how they were called. Were they the only 3 in the whole Church that God would have had in mind for the position? Or did Monson and the 12 make a list (they did) and then present it before the Lord and ask who he thought out of that list should be called? I feel like the latter is more likely, but of course I don't know.

I certainly sustain them as apostles of the Lord, I certainly believe the Lord approves of them and chose them. Maybe they were even raised up to it, in the foreknowledge of the Lord, sure.

But even so - is it not a valid idea that an international Church might be more effective if its leadership reflected its diversity a little more? Certainly who the Lord calls, he qualifies, but this is just standard management principles. I feel like boo made some good points about some of the downward trends in the Church the last number of years. Are we to shun all criticism as if it's apostasy or somehow unfaithful, or look at it as a constructive opportunity? The Lord isn't going to solve our problems for us, especially if we won't even look at them and just deny their existence in the name of faith.

[samizdat]

I would not have called anyone .That is not my prerogative. Please read what I wrote not what you expected me to write. I have merely articulated a historically demonstrable fact . Over the last 50 years the 15 have become a more narrowly constricted elite social group demographically ,culturally , educationally and economically. They all are with one exception born in the same small area ,go to the same 3 colleges ,have the same church experience ,and have very similar professional attainments. This is a dramatic change from when I was growing up. So dramatic as to be virtually beyond comprehension. No one who has commented on my entry has even tried to dispute its accuracy. Comparisons to 33 AD are not relevant . i have never raised the issue of diversity within the leadership of the primitive church .Whether this narrowing leadership phenomena is good or bad remains to be seen but I am not sanguine. If anyone cares to dispute the accuracy of my comment please do . Show me where i am wrong . I welcome correction Shadow. But please ,please read what was written and respond to it not what you may wish I had written. If you think this development is healthy in a increasingly multicultural church I would be delighted to hear your thoughts. But please respond to what i actually wrote and not like a bunch of Pavlovian attack dogs to a non-existant post.

What you are describing would be concerning if the FP and Q12 didn't get out much. They do.

No group of people know more of current world events, spiritual or natural, than they do.

The highest management is mostly from Utah. That is correct. But there is a German in there. Immediately below them are Seventies, and you find them from places like Brazil and Mexico, the Phillipines and Japan, Germany and Zimbabwe. Every April the 70s have meetings with the Q12 and FP.

Back to the affluent part. In this world, having a title IS important. Having a degree IS important. That opens doors more than straight up saying that you are an Apostle

Elder Nelson entered into Eastern Europe, by saying he was a heart surgeon. Elder Oaks was able to lecture the Mexican Senate last year due to having LEGAL EXPERTISE. He would never had had the light of day as an Apostle as there is a strict Church-Government separation in Mexico.

Things exist now that did not exist in 33 AD or even 1833 AD. It is 2015. The Church has a presence in 193 different nations. The Church leaders have to adjust to fluid changes on the ground though the doctrine remains constant.

[shadow]

Hey Boo, you might want to check out the apostles of Christ during his ministry. Where were they from? Were any of them related to each other? I'll wait for your answers.

Shadow, your point is taken and is certainly valid - but it doesn't invalidate the criticisms boo has made, imo.

I'm glad you see it as criticism. I do too.

[Magus]

Sure - in that it is critical. But I don't think it's coming from a bad place. I think that boo just sees some issues that are concerning. They're concerning to me too.

[Alighieri]

These are very real concerns boo.

Let us now think of what the scripture means when the Lord was on the midst of the intelligences and He saw many noble and great ones. These He would make His rulers. These men were preordained to be Apostles, like the men that passed on before them.

The scriptures contain a record of the dealings of God with man from the beginning of man. Search them out and ponder on them. The best answers come when the Spirit of the Lord can give them to you.

Be patient and study it out in your mind. Search the scriptures. I would hint at Jeremiah chapter 1:5, Abraham 3 and Doctrine and Covenants 138.

[Magus]

That's a good point about being fore-ordained, I had forgotten about that.

But were we all fore-ordained for specific things? I feel like the doctrine on that is probably yes, but I'm a little hazy.

But consider the fore-ordination rationale....that not everyone meets their potential here on earth, and that if one who is fore-ordained fails to meet the task, another (presumably who has been fore-ordained) would rise to the occasion.

But that would mean there are people who are fore-ordained as apostles who never become apostles because a first choice over them made it.

Treading into deeper waters now...

[Zathura]

That's a good point about being fore-ordained, I had forgotten about that.

But were we all fore-ordained for specific things? I feel like the doctrine on that is probably yes, but I'm a little hazy.

But consider the fore-ordination rationale....that not everyone meets their potential here on earth, and that if one who is fore-ordained fails to meet the task, another (presumably who has been fore-ordained) would rise to the occasion.

But that would mean there are people who are fore-ordained as apostles who never become apostles because a first choice over them made it.

Treading into deeper waters now...

I like your thinking. I think that yes, there are things that many of us were pre ordained to do, but I think many take it too far. For example, people talk about the first time you do an endowment session being something that was foreordained millions of years ago.. I don't think so. The Endowment session itself doesn't give you an endowment, It teaches us heavenly things with symbols that take many years to grasp. It teaches us about and Endowment that we can one day receive. In my opinion it speaks of 2 endowments(blessings of power). The washing and annointing is linked to being Born Again, and the endowment session is about eventually piercing the veil to receive the fullness of the priesthood. So I don't think that a simple tour through this endowment session was pre ordained. I don't know if all missionaries were pre ordained before this life. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't.

In my opinion, I think there are people who were foreordained to be Apostles who never became apostles because of many reasons. Maybe someone who is preordained to do great things falls in transgression and for this, doesn't achieve his potential.
In Brazil, poor men aren't considered for Stake President. They have to have an education and a Vehicle, these are actual requirements in the places I passed through. What if one of the poor men in that area was preordained to be a Stake President? Could it be that man erred, and created this wordly requirement for this leadership position, and thus the man who was preordained will never hold that position? Just like God doesn't preordain someone to be murdered and end their life early.. Maybe God created that requirement. I don't know.

I only say these things that have come to my mind to make us think and ponder, I only speak my opinion

[Desert Roses]

Hey guys....do any of you think that we have ALL the books that could have been in the Bible? I would imagine that there are books that just might explain some things but we don't have access to.

Totally agree! Which is why I say there's not enough scriptural evidence (currently, anyway) to prove or disprove how Paul was ordained and set apart as an apostle. My only conjecture is that it would probably be similar to the way in which the 11 ended up with Matthias as #12, as per Acts 1.

He was foreordained to the work, sure, but not yet set apart for it until the laying on of hands, as with all ordinations.

There are lots of stuff. Some people don't want it out because it doesn't support their paradigm. Nibley references all kinds of papers.

Source? Always open to another Nibley book to digest.

Suggestions: Mormonism and Early Christianity or Apostles and Bishops in Early Christianity and The World and The Prophets. I've read all three--all indicate sources in early Christianity that have been buried or ignored.

[Desert Roses]

Demanding that the Quorum of the 12 reflect some level of economic, racial, or cultural diversity is applying the standards of man to something Godly.

I personally believe that the selection process could be more inclusive. However, I know that to be MY standard and not that of the Lord. It in no way invalidates the validity of the current quorum.

Every member of the quorum could be from the same block of the same town. As long as they are humble servants of the Lord they will be acceptable apostles unto Him.

Elder Bednar pointed out that the Lord's way of choosing leaders is not the world's way. When he spoke about the age of the leaders and the world's view of a "gerentocracy", I was put in mind of the world's view of a 14-year-old boy receiving revelation, or of a 20-year-old young man being a prophet. Prophets were supposed to be old, and grey-haired, was the conventional thinking of the day. Now we have old, grey-haired prophets, and the world is still not happy! Why, they are just too old to "get it" we are told. Or they are from Utah, or they are white, or.. What I see is that the world looks on the outside--the Lord looks at the heart (as per Samuel's concern about David being anointed king of Israel!) The Lord knows these men--he also knows all the other 15 million members and which and who needs to be in a calling when. I KNOW that the Lord truly is in charge, and that He is inclusive far more than we could ever dream of trying to be. He has WAY more information than any human on earth, from President Monson to the humblest newest convert. I guess I'll trust His judgment, since He rarely does things the way the world thinks He should!

[shadow]

So Shadow do you at least concede that what I wrote was true ?

Riddle me this- if you knew Christ called those three as apostles, would you be posting the same posts?

I think regardless of whether or not Christ called them, the question is - it's relevant to know how they were called. Were they the only 3 in the whole Church that God would have had in mind for the position? Or did Monson and the 12 make a list (they did) and then present it before the Lord and ask who he thought out of that list should be called? I feel like the latter is more likely, but of course I don't know.

I certainly sustain them as apostles of the Lord, I certainly believe the Lord approves of them and chose them. Maybe they were even raised up to it, in the foreknowledge of the Lord, sure.

But even so - is it not a valid idea that an international Church might be more effective if its leadership reflected its diversity a little more? Certainly who the Lord calls, he qualifies, but this is just standard management principles. I feel like boo made some good points about some of the downward trends in the Church the last number of years. Are we to shun all criticism as if it's apostasy or somehow unfaithful, or look at it as a constructive opportunity? The Lord isn't going to solve our problems for us, especially if we won't even look at them and just deny their existence in the name of faith.

They were called by revelation. That should suffice. One can't effectively criticize true revelation without appearing as a fool. The process to get the revelation doesn't matter. For example, I once served as a counselor in a Sunday school presidency. The president liked to prayerfully discuss names in a meeting and decide then and there. It worked for us that way. It works for my wife in a different way. When she was YW's president she had to go to the Temple to get revelation of who to fill positions. Other ways didn't work for her. For me, revelation comes to my mind clearly and unmistakably. How it works for President Monson is his business. Maybe he prayerfully makes a list, maybe he prayerfully hashes it out with his counselors. Maybe he's in deep prayer and meditation when the name is revealed. Maybe he's like an old bishop of mine who received his revelations during his morning showers. Maybe he's just eating a bowl of cheerios and the name comes to him. It doesn't matter! He got the revelation. I suggest instead of criticizing the church for not choosing internationally, maybe ask the Lord why He chose those three. I think it would be fun to see an apostle who speaks the Xhosa language. His talks would be awesome. But I'm not in charge, thankfully.

[Magus]

For me it's not so much a criticism as it is a series of critical questions - is having the apostles create a list from acquaintances and/or friends to choose from and present to the Lord the most effective way to lead the Church? Even if the Lord approved and chose those 3 out of the choices presented? Is there a better way? Are there others just as qualified that could have been chosen and approved?

You seem to be avoiding/ignoring these questions, which are valid, and just saying that anyone who has them is a fool, simply because the Lord chose them by revelation.

At the crux of this question is - just how much is the Lord governing the Church with his hands-on, and how much is he allowing the apostles to take the wheel and learn on their own? It wouldn't be the first time the Lord has let apostles or Church leadership unwittingly "try the faith" of the membership.

I don't have an answer, I'm just inquiring - and I'm not a fool for doing so, nor are others.

[Zathura]

For me it's not so much a criticism as it is a series of critical questions - is having the apostles create a list from acquaintances and/or friends ito choose from and present to the Lord the most effective way to lead the Church? Even if the Lord approved and chose those 3 out of the choices presented? Is there a better way? Are there others just as qualified that could have been chosen and approved?

You seem to be avoiding/ignoring these questions, which are valid, and just saying that anyone who has them is a fool, simply because the Lord chose them by revelation.

At the crux of this question is - just how much is the Lord governing the Church with his hands-on, and how much is he allowing the apostles to take the wheel and learn on their own? It wouldn't be the first time the Lord has let apostles or Church leadership unwittingly "try the faith" of the membership.

I don't have an answer, I'm just inquiring - and I'm not a fool for doing so, nor are others.

I recommend asking these questions to someone else. You won't get an answer from Shadow on this subject. Post these questions tomorrow and see what responses you get

[Magus]

Maybe you're right.

I'll answer my own questions with other questions.

Why not just pray to have who the Lord would have revealed to them, instead of making a list of candidates? They're prophets after all, is that too tall an order?

[Zathura]

Maybe you're right.

I'll answer my own questions with other questions.

Why not just pray to have who the Lord would have revealed to them, instead of making a list of candidates? They're prophets after all, is that too tall an order?

You'd think that Prophets , Seers, and Revelators would do that. I do not know. I've seen it suggested that the Lord has hid his face from the church leaders as part of the condemnation the church received. Perhaps this is why the leaders have only the still small voice to help them with the affairs of the Church. I know that Gordon B Hinckley said something similar in one of his interviews.