3 New Apostles Called

[samizdat]

Those of you that complain about how every Apostle is white, rich, or mostly American really need to analyze how the world was in 33 AD vs. 2013.

There were no such things as visas or passports. To cross into countries you need both. And depending on where you travel from that isn't cheap.

Some passports are better than others. If you are American a visa is NOT required to enter Mexico but for a Mexican a VISA is required to enter America. Even so a Mexican passport is better than other passports in Latin America, Africa, or even Eastern Europe.

And to enter the USSR Elder Nelson did not say he was an Apostle. He said he was a heart surgeon.

[Onsdag]

I missed some of the session with internet troubles, but did Jesus actually show up? I missed it?

Another member of the Godhead, the Holy Ghost, was present in great abundance. It was an amazing experience having this member of the Godhead be with me as a companion during conference as the Lord Jesus Christ's anointed and chosen servants spoke to us. You didn't miss him, did you? If so then I invite you to find out why and rectify it.

[passionflower]

In order to be a Mission President you need $$$$$

I had five mission presidents.

The first was a farmer.
The second was a school teacher.
The third was a dentist.
The fourth was a hardware store owner.
The fifth was a BYU professor who was from Mexico.

Statement debunked.

How is it that you had five mission presidents?
The new MP coming into the Netherlands was a PA with some family business on the side. Not poor, but definately not rich.

[shadow]

just taking notes-

In memory of BobH

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[shadow]

All three of the new Apostles are from Utah, a fact which is already being emphasized by the secular media. Are you surprised that there were no non-white, non-American men called?

I wonder why the secular media and some on this site don't emphasize that Christ also chose all His apostles during His time from the Jewish race? Yet nobody on this site suggests bigotry then.

[ebenezerarise]

How is it that you had five mission presidents?

I had a temporary assignment while waiting for a visa that never arrived and had two mission presidents there (one got sick and left, another was assigned).

When my visa didn't come my mission was changed and I was sent somewhere else. While there, the mission split. A regular change in MP in the middle of all that resulted in 5 mission presidents overall for me. Fluke thing.

[rewcox]

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[Desert Roses]

All three of the new Apostles are from Utah, a fact which is already being emphasized by the secular media. Are you surprised that there were no non-white, non-American men called?

I wonder why the secular media and some on this site don't emphasize that Christ also chose all His apostles during His time from the Jewish race? Yet nobody on this site suggests bigotry then.

In the Americas, the prophets were mostly powerful men--Alma the Elder, one of those on the king's "priest" council; Alma the Younger--best friends with the sons of the king and a chief judge (top leader of the government); Helaman--a general of the armies; 3 Nephi--another chief judge who gave it up to preach the gospel like his ancestor, Alma the Younger...even to the end, Mormon was a great general in the military, and no one says the Lord chose the wrong men to be His prophets because they were not of the lower classes or poor.

[Magus]

Some good posts in this thread.

Surely out of 15 million members of the Church, there are numerous combinations of 3 other men who would be just as spiritually worthy and qualified to be called as apostles. Financially even, as well. It's worth considering, however, exactly how they are chosen. Are these 3 guys the only 3 guys in the whole entire Church that God wanted to be apostles at this time? Maybe.....or maybe the 12 just had a list of criteria, applied them to people they knew of, and then prayed about them for approval. It's hard for me to say what the case really is...but I too am disappointed that in a Church that claims to be such an "international" Church, and not merely an American one, the vast majority of the world leadership in the Church is well-off, white Americans.

This has nothing to do with me being concerned about being politically correct, or filling any sort of affirmative action quota, as I couldn't give a whit about that - it just has to do with being what you say you are. I feel a truly international Church ought to actually reflect that in its leadership. I'd like to see this addressed.

That being said - I accept that the Lord has approved of them and will lead and direct them as they seek his Spirit, and I sustain them as apostles of Jesus Christ, and I look forward to hearing whatever unique messages or perspectives they may have to share.

But...

How many of us believe they were specifically called by Jesus Christ out of 15 million vs. being called by the 12 and the First Presidency and merely approved by Jesus Christ? I honestly don't know the answer.

[iWriteStuff]

Some good posts in this thread.

Surely out of 15 million members of the Church, there are numerous combinations of 3 other men who would be just as spiritually worthy and qualified to be called as apostles. Financially even, as well. It's worth considering, however, exactly how they are chosen. Are these 3 guys the only 3 guys in the whole entire Church that God wanted to be apostles at this time? Maybe.....or maybe the 12 just had a list of criteria, applied them to people they knew of, and then prayed about them for approval. It's hard for me to say what the case really is...but I too am disappointed that in a Church that claims to be such an "international" Church, and not merely an American one, the vast majority of the world leadership in the Church is well-off, white Americans.

This has nothing to do with me being concerned about being politically correct, or filling any sort of affirmative action quota, as I couldn't give a whit about that - it just has to do with being what you say you are. I feel a truly international Church ought to actually reflect that in its leadership. I'd like to see this addressed.

That being said - I accept that the Lord has approved of them and will lead and direct them as they seek his Spirit, and I sustain them as apostles of Jesus Christ, and I look forward to hearing whatever unique messages or perspectives they may have to share.

But...

How many of us believe they were specifically called by Jesus Christ out of 15 million vs. being called by the 12 and the First Presidency and merely approved by Jesus Christ? I honestly don't know the answer.

Great questions, Magus! And welcome.

I was watching very closely this weekend to see if I could gain a witness of any sort of the three new apostles. Their talks were good, but I wanted to know their specific experience to know that they themselves were called to serve as apostles. I found the transcript of the press conference very useful in gaining that understanding and receiving a witness. Here's the link:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8656 ... tml?pg=all" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Some highlights that helped me understand their calling:

Elder Renlund:

After we were seated, President Monson looked at me and he said, “Brother Renlund, we extend to you the call to serve as a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.”

I was stunned and speechless. I think I murmured an acceptance of the calling. I was somewhere between apoplectic and catatonic. And I think President Monson sensed that my bones had dissolved and so he looked at me and he said, “God called you, the Lord made it known to me.”

A few minutes later, I found myself back in my office where I closed the door and fell to my knees. After I could collect myself I called my wife, Ruth, and told her. Her reaction was one of astonishment, but of absolute commitment to the Lord, his church and to me.

Even though I implicitly trusted President Monson, we recognized that we had both the right and an obligation to personally know down to our very bones that this call was of God. Over the ensuing hours, as we have prayed, we have come to receive that assurance by revelation that this call has come from God by prophecy. That assurance helps.

I don’t feel qualified, with the exception that I do know that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world. I can witness of his living reality. That he is my Savior, and your Savior, I know that that’s true. And I trust completely in President Monson’s statement that who he calls, he qualifies.

And as pertains to calling someone from outside Utah, that was one question addressed to them specifically. I like their answers:

Daniel Woodruff, KUTV2 News:

I think it’s fair to say that before conference today, there was quite a bit of anticipation and speculation that one of the new apostles would have been called from outside the United States. Each of you comes from this state of Utah. My question would be: What can you or what will you do as an apostle to help the members outside of the Mormon Corridor and United States feel understood and valued as members of the faith?

Elder Rasband:

It’s a good question. None of us knew until we were sustained in conference today who the three apostles were going to be. We’re still taking that in as well. But one thing I certainly do know that our call has come through a prophet from the Lord, Jesus Christ. And I can’t answer your questions specifically other than to say that Jesus Christ loves everyone, and we’re going to be apostles to everyone. We’ve had opportunity to travel through the church. We love the Latter-day Saints everywhere. Brother Renlund just gave a great example of that. We’re not going to be apostles to our local community or to the state we’re from. We’re called to bear the name of Christ throughout the world. And Lord willing, we’ll go do that as he would have us do it, in a manner that would be pleasing to him.

Elder Renlund:

Elder (Dallin H.) Oaks in this last session just spoke about Jesus Christ having paid the price to understand anybody and everybody that’s ever been a human being on this planet and the challenges that they go through. He paid the price. So even though his mortal life was confined to a very narrow geographic area, he paid the price so he could understand how everybody feels.

I think that we believe completely that by the power of the Holy Ghost, one may know the truth of all things. If we pay that price as you’re suggesting, of studying and learning and being with, somehow the Holy Ghost can bless us with the Savior’s compassion, with the Savior’s empathy to try to help. And I think that that is the way, it’s a gift of the Spirit to be able to be with people. And even though we might look differently, to feel and want to be like them.

Paul said to those who were under the law, he was as if under the law. To those that were without law, he wanted to be as if he were without law. To the weak, he wanted to be weak. He wanted to be all things to all men, so that he could by all means he could bring some to Christ. And I think that’s the spiritual gift that we speak.

I think it's useful to read the whole transcript as it really helps one come to know the personalities and insights of the men God has called to lead His church.

[natasha]

just taking notes-

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Hey Shadow....you know I love you....but check this out: https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/ronald-a-rasband_lord/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Especially paragrah #4 and #8. ;)

[natasha]

Shadow see above....and also, I think BYU is pretty well represented with Pres. Monson getting his MBA there; Elder Oaks, BYU; Elder Bednar his bachelors and Masters from BYU; Elder Christopherson, BYU; Elder Anderson, BYU.....in fact, I noticed that all three Utah schools were represented as well as schools in different states.

[boo]

The larger question is that out of 16 million members how is it that not only are all the 15 white affluent males but that 11 of them were born in UT , 14 educated as undergraduates in the same 3 schools ,and 14 of them hold advanced degrees or were successful business men. All had years of experience in the great bureaucracy of the COB before they were called . Effectively the instition is only advancing its executives from within . A common sign of morbidity.And in most cases those advanced are related to or close friends of GAs ? Elder Rasband wife is the daughter of a GA. Elder Rutlund is a close friend of Elder Nelson ( both cardiologists in SLC). In my time the church was different. Apostles were often called from outside Ut and often from outside the US ( Pres Tanner and Brown from Canada and Romney from Mexico ) .Consider Pres Hunter and Kimball and Stapley ( one from Calif and 2 from Az). They typically had no church wide experience . Pres Kimball was a SP. Clark virtually no church experience ( he never served as a bishop or SP, he was on a general board but barely functioned) And they were of a more diverse economic background. Pres Kimball was a life insurance salesman. Benson was a farmer. Stapley a farm implements seller. Clark a diplomat. Most did not hold advance degrees. This was when the church had 2 million members and was even more concentrated in the Mor /Cor than it is now. We may claim to be a world wide church but the leadership is more narrowly constituted ,more demographically constricted and more elitist by birth ,education , training and marital or social connection than ever before. We really are a Ut church with regional franchises. It must be understood if you are part of the franchisee the Lord will never consider you worthy to be a special witness of his "name". All of this happens at a time where the church is facing the greatest number of people leaving since Kirtland ( says the church historian ) , baptismal rates per missionary are the lowest in this dispensation, growth is the lowest percentage wise ever, new temple construction or announcements have ground to a stop and the church faces more challenges to the family and from social issues ( gays) than ever before. I sincerely hope the brethren are up to the task but I fear more of the same ( or actually doubling down on the same ) will continue to bring the same results.

[shadow]

Hey Boo, you might want to check out the apostles of Christ during his ministry. Where were they from? Were any of them related to each other? I'll wait for your answers.

[boo]

Hey Boo, you might want to check out the apostles of Christ during his ministry. Where were they from? Were any of them related to each other? I'll wait for your answers.

Ah Shadow I should have expected as much. My comments go to the continuing narrowing scope of church leadership during my life time . But as I expected your response has nothing to do with the substance of the comment. Only a non sequitur about the way the church was organized 2000 years ago. I may point out that true growth and success for the primitive church did not occur until outsiders ( think Paul) began to be part of the hierarchy. You are welcome to simply say I disagree that this development is a bad thing but I doubt you can disagree with its reality.

[iWriteStuff]

Hey Boo, you might want to check out the apostles of Christ during his ministry. Where were they from? Were any of them related to each other? I'll wait for your answers.

Ah Shadow I should have expected as much. My comments go to the continuing narrowing scope of church leadership during my life time . But as I expected your response has nothing to do with the substance of the comment. Only a non sequitur about the way the church was organized 2000 years ago. I may point out that true growth and success for the primitive church did not occur until outsiders ( think Paul) began to be part of the hierarchy. You are welcome to simply say I disagree that this development is a bad thing but I doubt you can disagree with its reality.

Can't speak for Shadow, but I'd say I agree whole heartedly! We need some new blood in the leadership! It was such a moving conference talk when Pres. Uchtdorf talked about how his ancestors pushed their handcarts across the frozen tundra of Winter Quarters in 18--... oh, wait.

New blood is being added every day. And more apostles will be needed in the future. Just because the most recent ones came from one part of the Vineyard doesn't mean others won't be chosen from different locations in the future. Don't be too hasty. The Lord knows His sheep and will choose righteous shepherds to gather them into safety.

Honestly, even the REAL early Mormon pioneers to Utah were from every nation of the earth. The important thing is that the Lord calls them and they are willing to sacrifice all things in His service. I'm grateful to be part of the Lord's church and see His work progress.

[shadow]

Hey Boo, you might want to check out the apostles of Christ during his ministry. Where were they from? Were any of them related to each other? I'll wait for your answers.

Ah Shadow I should have expected as much. My comments go to the continuing narrowing scope of church leadership during my life time . But as I expected your response has nothing to do with the substance of the comment. Only a non sequitur about the way the church was organized 2000 years ago. I may point out that true growth and success for the primitive church did not occur until outsiders ( think Paul) began to be part of the hierarchy. You are welcome to simply say I disagree that this development is a bad thing but I doubt you can disagree with its reality.

I guess the Lord is getting it wrong. See, I believe, as do most Mormons, that people are called via revelation. Maybe you should let God know that revelation should come from Boo, then to the Lord, then to the Prophet. Obviously the church is wrong since the great Boo says so.

[Zathura]

Hey Boo, you might want to check out the apostles of Christ during his ministry. Where were they from? Were any of them related to each other? I'll wait for your answers.

Ah Shadow I should have expected as much. My comments go to the continuing narrowing scope of church leadership during my life time . But as I expected your response has nothing to do with the substance of the comment. Only a non sequitur about the way the church was organized 2000 years ago. I may point out that true growth and success for the primitive church did not occur until outsiders ( think Paul) began to be part of the hierarchy. You are welcome to simply say I disagree that this development is a bad thing but I doubt you can disagree with its reality.

I guess the Lord is getting it wrong. See, I believe, as do most Mormons, that people are called via revelation. Maybe you should let God know that revelation should come from Boo, then to the Lord, then to the Prophet. Obviously the church is wrong since the great Boo says so.

Did Peter call Paul to his office and extend him the Call of Apostlr which he received through revelation?

[shadow]

Did Peter call Paul to his office and extend him the Call of Apostlr which he received through revelation?

It doesn't matter, with Mary everything was in harmony and they sold albums worldwide. Nobody complained about their nationality. Nobody said "Well if Paul was black and from my country then I'd probably buy their album." It just didn't matter. The taste of the gospel is the same. It doesn't matter the nationality. It tastes good.

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[Zathura]

Did Peter call Paul to his office and extend him the Call of Apostlr which he received through revelation?

It doesn't matter, with Mary everything was in harmony and they sold albums worldwide. Nobody complained about their nationality. Nobody said "Well if Paul was black and from my country then I'd probably buy their album." It just didn't matter. The taste of the gospel is the same. It doesn't matter the nationality. It tastes good.

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I asked a serious question, and i expected a serious answer.

You say that the Apostles are called by revelation. Today, the Prophet prays and then extends the call to the new Apostle, ensuring him that the call is of God.

Is this what happened to Paul? Did Peter call Paul in and extend him the calling and ensure him that he is an Apostle of Jesus? How did Paul know he was an Apostle?

[Serragon]

Some here have argued that the Lord requires a wealthy self-motivated professional to be an apostle. They use the current make-up of the quorum as proof positive. They seem to believe the Lord is almost literally issuing the call to the individual.

Some here have argued that the quorum is stagnating and needs to be more diverse, both economically and culturally. By extension this implies they believe the Lord is not behind the calls of the new members.

I think both are incorrect views.

I have had the experience to serve in multiple Stake Presidencies and Bishoprics as a secretary and/or clerk. I have also had the blessing of being and EQ president. I have witnessed hundreds of callings deliberated and issued.

There are a few rare times where the Spirit speaks so strongly that it is apparent to everyone who should be called. These are powerful experiences. The vast majority of the time however it is simply a confirmation that the person is not unacceptable to the Lord.

My experiences tell me that the Lord is generally content with whomever is called. Occasionally he intervenes for a specific purpose, but not often. This in no way diminishes the mantle or the appointment of that individual.

In the case of the apostles, I would say that there were probably hundreds of thousands of people who the Lord would have accepted if presented to Him. The 3 that were presented were accepted of Him. The fact that they are not economically, culturally, or racially diverse is of no moment. As long as these men humble themselves before Him, they will be able to fulfill their mission with his assistance. What they lack, he will provide.

[Obrien]

Did Peter call Paul to his office and extend him the Call of Apostlr which he received through revelation?

It doesn't matter, with Mary everything was in harmony and they sold albums worldwide. Nobody complained about their nationality. Nobody said "Well if Paul was black and from my country then I'd probably buy their album." It just didn't matter. The taste of the gospel is the same. It doesn't matter the nationality. It tastes good.

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As usual, more lighthearted deflection from shadow.

Boo's original analysis was cogent and on point. I hope the GAs are "up for the challenge" as well. I am less optimistic than Shadow or iwrite that all these callings are made by revelation. I have seen repeatedly both in the church and in real life that it is often who you know, rather than what you know, that "qualifies" a person for a position.

[Zathura]

Some here have argued that the Lord requires a wealthy self-motivated professional to be an apostle. They use the current make-up of the quorum as proof positive. They seem to believe the Lord is almost literally issuing the call to the individual.

Some here have argued that the quorum is stagnating and needs to be more diverse, both economically and culturally. By extension this implies they believe the Lord is not behind the calls of the new members.

I think both are incorrect views.

I have had the experience to serve in multiple Stake Presidencies and Bishoprics as a secretary and/or clerk. I have also had the blessing of being and EQ president. I have witnessed hundreds of callings deliberated and issued.

There are a few rare times where the Spirit speaks so strongly that it is apparent to everyone who should be called. These are powerful experiences. The vast majority of the time however it is simply a confirmation that the person is not unacceptable to the Lord.

My experiences tell me that the Lord is generally content with whomever is called. Occasionally he intervenes for a specific purpose, but not often. This in no way diminishes the mantle or the appointment of that individual.

In the case of the apostles, I would say that there were probably hundreds of thousands of people who the Lord would have accepted if presented to Him. The 3 that were presented were accepted of Him. The fact that they are not economically, culturally, or racially diverse is of no moment. As long as these men humble themselves before Him, they will be able to fulfill their mission with his assistance. What they lack, he will provide.

Do you think that there are some truly humble men that are true witnesses of Christ, that aren't even considered for positions like this because of their financial situation? And since they are never considered, the General Authorities never end up presenting those names before the Lord to seek revelation concerning them?

[iWriteStuff]

Did Peter call Paul to his office and extend him the Call of Apostlr which he received through revelation?

It doesn't matter, with Mary everything was in harmony and they sold albums worldwide. Nobody complained about their nationality. Nobody said "Well if Paul was black and from my country then I'd probably buy their album." It just didn't matter. The taste of the gospel is the same. It doesn't matter the nationality. It tastes good.

image.jpg

I asked a serious question, and i expected a serious answer.

You say that the Apostles are called by revelation. Today, the Prophet prays and then extends the call to the new Apostle, ensuring him that the call is of God.

Is this what happened to Paul? Did Peter call Paul in and extend him the calling and ensure him that he is an Apostle of Jesus? How did Paul know he was an Apostle?

Ya know, I just poured through the New Testament accounts and all the related Institute and Seminary manuals referencing Paul and his apostleship. Jesus called him a Chosen Vessel, and several modern day prophets have said that he was called in the pre-mortal existence, but I haven't found one single reference to when the calling was extended.

Acts chapter 1 states how apostles were selected in Christ's church (Matthias: chosen through revelation by God and the casting of lots by the remaining 11), but I dare you to find any reference to calls extended by the early church whenever a vacancy came up after that. Not even Paul's gets a mention. That he was referred to as a "chosen vessel" is true, and later he refers to himself as an apostle, but when did that start officially?

[iWriteStuff]

Some here have argued that the Lord requires a wealthy self-motivated professional to be an apostle. They use the current make-up of the quorum as proof positive. They seem to believe the Lord is almost literally issuing the call to the individual.

Some here have argued that the quorum is stagnating and needs to be more diverse, both economically and culturally. By extension this implies they believe the Lord is not behind the calls of the new members.

I think both are incorrect views.

I have had the experience to serve in multiple Stake Presidencies and Bishoprics as a secretary and/or clerk. I have also had the blessing of being and EQ president. I have witnessed hundreds of callings deliberated and issued.

There are a few rare times where the Spirit speaks so strongly that it is apparent to everyone who should be called. These are powerful experiences. The vast majority of the time however it is simply a confirmation that the person is not unacceptable to the Lord.

My experiences tell me that the Lord is generally content with whomever is called. Occasionally he intervenes for a specific purpose, but not often. This in no way diminishes the mantle or the appointment of that individual.

In the case of the apostles, I would say that there were probably hundreds of thousands of people who the Lord would have accepted if presented to Him. The 3 that were presented were accepted of Him. The fact that they are not economically, culturally, or racially diverse is of no moment. As long as these men humble themselves before Him, they will be able to fulfill their mission with his assistance. What they lack, he will provide.

Do you think that there are some truly humble men that are true witnesses of Christ, that aren't even considered for positions like this because of their financial situation? And since they are never considered, the General Authorities never end up presenting those names before the Lord to seek revelation concerning them?

Gordon B. Hinckley never had a great wealth of cash stashed away. He wasn't "rich" by any standard. Neither was Thomas S. Monson. And really, where have you gone to gain access to these brothers' financial statements? Are you their tax accountant?