LDS Freedom Forum

natasha wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the question we are asked is: Do you SUPPORT the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve as Prophets, Seers and Revelators?

Ah wrong . The question is do we sustain . We sustain by acknowledging their right to preside and conduct the affairs of the institution. You can sustain Obama as president even we disagree with his policies. You guys are so quick to condemn. You have no idea what conversations I have had with my bishop and SP about these matters. Really I would be more circumspect in my haste to judge others honesty or integrity if I were you.

boo wrote:

natasha wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the question we are asked is: Do you SUPPORT the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve as Prophets, Seers and Revelators?

Ah wrong . The question is do we sustain . We sustain by acknowledging their right to preside and conduct the affairs of the institution. You can sustain Obama as president even we disagree with his policies. You guys are so quick to condemn. You have no idea what conversations I have had with my bishop and SP about these matters. Really I would be more circumspect in my haste to judge others honesty or integrity if I were you.

" We have an opportunity to sustain—support, help, pray for—each of these people in their callings. We indicate our willingness to do so by raising our right hands when their names are read to us in general conference, stake conference, ward or branch conference, or sacrament meeting. Raising our hands is a sign to us, to them, and to the Lord that we will sustain them." lds.org

The Snufferites are here to huh?

Having someone come along claiming The Church is fallen, The Priesthood is lost...blah..blah...blah is nothing new to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. There have been many impostors throughout our history and these impostors will fade with time.

Kudos to those on here who defend The Church and our Leaders. For those who have to be deceitful so they can have their cake and eat it too...I say repent!

boo wrote:

natasha wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the question we are asked is: Do you SUPPORT the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve as Prophets, Seers and Revelators?

Ah wrong . The question is do we sustain . We sustain by acknowledging their right to preside and conduct the affairs of the institution. You can sustain Obama as president even we disagree with his policies. You guys are so quick to condemn. You have no idea what conversations I have had with my bishop and SP about these matters. Really I would be more circumspect in my haste to judge others honesty or integrity if I were you.

So I will ask you again Boo. If a Snuffer had come to you while you were serving as a Bishop in the church and proclaimed that the church had now fallen into an apostate state and its presiding authorities had lost all valid priesthood authority and keys would you have issued them a recommend to attend the temple? Is it appropriate for that individual to be found making covenants in the temple that they are intending to rebel against and break? Is that merciful?

Kudos to those who defend Jesus Christ, since it's his Church and it's him that we worship

I do find it interesting that LDS members must sustain the leaders in order to enter the temple for saving ordinances.

But in return, the same leaders do not need to show the fruits of prophecy, seership or revelation to the members.

shadow wrote:It is appropriate to be like Jesus. Boo did nothing like Jesus would do. Jesus is upfront and honest, not deceitful. When he thought the temple was being run by thugs, he kicked them out. Boo thinks those running the temples have no authority to do it, which makes everything done in the temple invalid, yet he's a temple worker. That's not honest. If boo thinks those running the temples have the authority and keys to do it, then he's being dishonest by going outside proper keys and authority to be baptized again. Either way boo is deceitful.

Zachariah served in that same "den of robbers" and an angel appeared. I guess he was dishonest in addition to being unbelieving. God's a funny guy.

[removed first part, sorry.] Just be honest and don't deceive, doesn't matter if it's a priesthood leader or your neighbor. Don't be a hypocrite/actor - be who you really are - not a disguise or a facade or an appearance. I think this is one of the real meanings of a wolf in sheep's clothing. Besides, believers-of-Denver, why would you want to maintain the facade of being an LDS in good standing? If your new way is right and authoritative, why aren't you all-in? Why participate in anything LDS under false pretenses? If I learned Denver's claims and message were true, I would be all-in (hot or cold, as it were), turn my recommend in, openly declare what I now believed about the brethren - which is clearly not "sustaining" but rather "opposing" them - that my tithing was going to go somewhere else, not the LDS Church, as well as my intention to be rebaptized by someone not authorized by the LDS Church, and I would fully expect with all these announcements to be excommunicated very quickly. Should I expect to retain membership and a temple recommend after these things come out in the open? Should I expect to be able to still enter the temple (beyond the court of the Gentiles, or foyer, as it were, provided I haven't become a nuisance and earned a restraining order)? Absolutely not. Denver and his people don't have a temple yet, but he says you'll get one. In the meantime I would use the mountains or such, as prophets of old did. If I still wanted to participate in the LDS Church's programs, or have my children participate, after making this major move/change (and I don't think I would), I would do so transparently as a non-member. Period. That's what I would do IF I learned for myself, from the Lord directly, that Denver and his message were true and as claimed. This straddling the fence approach seems lukewarm and deceptive to me, i.e. I wouldn't do it if I knew what you claim you know to be true.

Stahura wrote:Kudos to those who defend Jesus Christ, since it's his Church and it's him that we worship

I read your post and it reminded me of this random post I saw




:-??

Joel wrote:

Stahura wrote:Kudos to those who defend Jesus Christ, since it's his Church and it's him that we worship

I read your post and it reminded me of this random post I saw




:-??

haha what on earth..?? That's way random.

My post wasn't that random haha, someone before me said "kudos to those that defend the Church and leaders"

Hey Boo,

So you claim to have a recommend and what not...so how do you get around this interview question...

Do you affiliate with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or do you sympathize with the precepts of any such group or individual?

That's an old wording of that question.

Stahura wrote: haha what on earth..?? That's way random.
.......

I did not read that one. :)) After a while my forum experience can be like this and I miss something:

It's very unfortunate that many small folks can't even emulate our Lord without being mocked and condemned. One of my more spiritual experiences was being baptized (born) again. It was a rebirth! The Lord’s blessings and spirit were poured upon me and am humbled and forever grateful for the experience. I feel I am still being blessed for the decision while the windows of heaven have been open. I have also taken the sacrament with wine and warm homemade bread many times. When blessing the sacrament I will even raise my arms to the square. I do it in the exact same manner as the Savior and his apostles, the same way as Joseph Smith and the early church did it, the same way as Mormon and Moroni did it, and the same way it has been done throughout all eternities. Joseph Smith said "that was the way that Jesus and his disciples partook of the bread and wine. And this was the order of the church anciently and until the church went into darkness."

Given the fact that the sacrament is NOT done in the same manner as the Lord and his apostles is one of many indicators the we are walking in darkness. I am just using Joseph Smith's logic. Most good folks will never believe or do what the Lord has commanded until the people they admire and worship without question tell them to change their mind regardless of what the Lord has said and taught. Actual thinking is harder than just following someone whom everyone believes is right. It's a sad fact that no one really wants to admit about those whom we trust and follow.

Why do we observe the sabbath? We observe it because that is what God did in the beginning. . . God ” . . . rested . . . from all his work which he had made.” By observing the sabbath we are merely imitating what God did in the beginning. “We must do what the gods did in the beginning.”(Satapatha Brahmana) “Thus the gods did; thus men do.” (Taittrilya Brahmana) What did Jesus teach after washing his disciples feet? “For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done unto you.” . . . “As I have loved you, that ye also love one another.” This love is consecrated by the example of Jesus Christ. “He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also.” . . . "I am the way" . . . "My sheep … follow me" . . . "Christ … an example, that ye should follow his steps." . . . "be perfect even as I." . . . "what manner of men ought ye to be? … even as I am." . . . "true followers of his Son … we shall be like him." . . . "And he that doeth not these things is not my disciple; by this you may know my disciples." And on and on...

Christ gave us the perfect example, so why do we continue to distance ourselves from his perfect example? Why do others condemn those who are truly just trying to draw closer to God and trying to become like him by following his example?

"the ordinances of the Gospel…were laid out before the foundations of the world" and "are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles" (TPJS, pp. 367, 308).

Is there ONE single ordinance or ritual that has NOT been changed or altered? Is there anything left of the original that Joseph restored?

SempiternalHarbinger wrote: When blessing the sacrament I will even raise my arms to the square. I do it in the exact same manner as the Savior and his apostles, the same way as Joseph Smith and the early church did it, the same way as Mormon and Moroni did it, and the same way it has been done throughout all eternities. Joseph Smith said "that was the way that Jesus and his disciples partook of the bread and wine. And this was the order of the church anciently and until the church went into darkness."

Given the fact that the sacrament is NOT done in the same manner as the Lord and his apostles is one of many indicators the we are walking in darkness. I am just using Joseph's Smith's logic.

Hi Semp. Do you have sources for this?

Separatist wrote:

SempiternalHarbinger wrote: When blessing the sacrament I will even raise my arms to the square. I do it in the exact same manner as the Savior and his apostles, the same way as Joseph Smith and the early church did it, the same way as Mormon and Moroni did it, and the same way it has been done throughout all eternities. Joseph Smith said "that was the way that Jesus and his disciples partook of the bread and wine. And this was the order of the church anciently and until the church went into darkness."

Given the fact that the sacrament is NOT done in the same manner as the Lord and his apostles is one of many indicators the we are walking in darkness. I am just using Joseph's Smith's logic.

Hi Semp. Do you have sources for this?

School of the prophets. I will see if I can find get an exact quote.

Found this:
http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/ZebC.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But wondering about the arms raised to the square bit.

Sadly the go to answer for many of your questions Semp is something of this effect: "Wherefore I, the Lord, command and revoke, as it seemeth me good..."

Jeremy wrote:Sadly the go to answer for many of your questions Semp is something of this effect: "Wherefore I, the Lord, command and revoke, as it seemeth me good..."

.......................via policies added in an obscure manual never to be shown to members

The wording for baptism is different (changed, altered) in the Book of Mormon vs what the Lord revealed to Joseph in the D&C. So for you guys, is the BoM false or is Joseph a false prophet?

Where's that John Wayne quote I like so much?? "Life is hard...."

shadow wrote:The wording for baptism is different in the Book of Mormon vs what the Lord revealed to Joseph in the D&C. So for you guys, is the BoM false or is Joseph a false prophet?

To avoid this I am going to use:
Wherefore I, the Lord, command and revoke, as it seemeth me good... :p

Or maybe this one:
"Beware of those who would pit the dead prophets against the living prophets, for the living prophets always take precedence."

shadow wrote:The wording for baptism is different (changed, altered) in the Book of Mormon vs what the Lord revealed to Joseph in the D&C. So for you guys, is the BoM false or is Joseph a false prophet?

Where's that John Wayne quote I like so much?? "Life is hard...."

It's not an equal comparison.

We've already discussed this many times. Joseph Smith talked to God face to face or heard his voice hundreds of times. He then presented it before the people to accept it before it was binding upon us.

The changes after him were not done in this manner, but were decided upon collectively by 15 men and placed in a manual(the ordinance changes were placed nowhere, they were just changed) and we all immediately were expected to accept it, and it now dictates everything.

It just seems like we keep going round and round on this and never get anywhere.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints believes in a living prophet that leads and guides the church. We also believe in 12 apostles who help lead and guide the church, some of whom one day become the head of the church, if they live long enough. The Prophet, through continuing revelation, makes changes to the way the church is run. We ARE NOT a stagnant organization and things will change over time. If you all don't figure that out, you're going to have problems--I'm talking to those of you who continually complain about the changes within the church.

Why are some of you still grilling LDS members about beliefs you used to adhere to yourselves? Jeremy? Boo? Thomas? Separatist? and the rest of you who follow Snuffer but won't admit it? I'm not sure who you all are because you hide your affiliation with him these days. Those of you who've accepted Denver Snuffer as a Prophet (thereby rejecting Pres. Monson); You've decided you don't believe anymore and that's fine. You have that right. But what bothers me is that I have a right to continue to believe the church and sustain the present day leaders and how they run this church and I shouldn't have to constantly defend the basics. You all were once members and you know how things work in the church. You know that the Prophet receives revelation for the whole church and that means change. Over the almost 200 years of the existence of the church, we've been losing members every time the Prophet makes changes--because there are members who don't like change and see it as apostasy. Denver Snuffer's followers are just the latest to break off, believing they are the 'Lord's true church'. But yet, they won't openly admit what they are doing because they need to proselyte and ONLY people who are members of the LDS church are going to have any interest in their 'community'--and I assume that's why you all are here. To try to find converts.

Which brings me to Stahura. I'm sure Snuffer's adherents on this forum are working on converting Stahura to his movement, and he sounds like he's just the kind of LDS member they look for.

Stahura, We believe the living prophet makes changes, as he is inspired to do. That means if he wants to require members to sustain him and the Quorum of 12, whether it was required in the past or not, HE CAN REQUIRE IT!!! I believe you are sincere in your questions, but for you to learn anything from those questions, you're going to have to actually be open to considering the answers!! I seem to recall you are a long time member, you might have even said you served a mission, but sometimes you sound like you have virtually no knowledge of the Gospel. Have you been inactive a while? I'm not criticizing, I'm just trying to understand why you say things that are odd for an active, believing member. They're not odd for someone who's been out of the church for a while. And by the way, we don't teach that people have to go to the temple to be part of the kingdom of God--Baptism is the gateway to the Kingdom of God; Baptism is the entrance into the Celestial kingdom. It has to be done by someone having proper authority, one of those very basic things what you struggle with as well.

Denver Snuffer is not a prophet, he's simply a member who, somewhere in the last few years, lost his testimony and is now using his gifts and talents to take as many people out of the church, with him. And those who have put faith in his teachings often try to stay members in the LDS church because that's where they will find 'converts'. No one else would be interested or even have a clue what Snuffer is talking about.

AI2.0 wrote:
Why are some of you still grilling LDS members about beliefs you used to adhere to yourselves? Jeremy? Boo? Thomas? Separatist?

Which brings me to Stahura. I'm sure Snuffer's adherents on this forum are working on converting Stahura to his movement, and he sounds like he's just the kind of LDS member they look for.

First, they weren't grilling anybody. They got called out by others. If anybody is grilling others, it'd be me
Second, I've never had a single person approach me about Denver Snuffer and ask me to read or consider what he had to say. I've made my beliefs about him and church leaders clear many times.


I enjoyed your little judge session though!

This post must be why everybody LOVES the Mormons!

Stahura wrote:

shadow wrote:The wording for baptism is different (changed, altered) in the Book of Mormon vs what the Lord revealed to Joseph in the D&C. So for you guys, is the BoM false or is Joseph a false prophet?

Where's that John Wayne quote I like so much?? "Life is hard...."

It's not an equal comparison.

We've already discussed this many times. Joseph Smith talked to God face to face or heard his voice hundreds of times. He then presented it before the people to accept it before it was binding upon us.

The changes after him were not done in this manner, but were decided upon collectively by 15 men and placed in a manual(the ordinance changes were placed nowhere, they were just changed) and we all immediately were expected to accept it, and it now dictates everything.

Joseph did not claim to have talked to God every time he made a change. He was the prophet, seer and revelator. The members trusted that he was God's annointed servant on earth and he was free to make changes and decisions and the people accepted them. Your problem is that you don't believe we have a Prophet who leads us today. You've been listening to dissaffected members and they are influencing you to think like them. Either we are the Lord's true church on earth or we aren't. You'll have to find the answer to that for yourself. But I can tell you one thing. If the LDS church isn't the true church, then there is no true church on earth. Snuffer evolved his 'community' out of the LDS church; his teachings are heretical and based on his skewed 'interpretation' of LDS scripture and history. Even his own evolution from believing member to excommunicant is something he can't escape. He has no authority, because he could only claim to have gotten his 'authority' to start a new church, from his affiliation and ordination by the LDS church, which he said was rejected by God within only a few years of it's organization.