Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?

[Jesef]

Daryl, I rescinded the "rules" of the OP here:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39941&p=677934#p676902

You and anyone else who feel Denver is a true messenger/servant/prophet are free to comment here.

And that post going through the original D&C 84 is worth reading (in my opinion). I understand your point, we are not one, many of us seem to be on different trains. Some people are arguing. Some are claiming special privilege and knowledge for their positions (which contradict others doing the same thing). Others are quoting the scriptures like they wrote them or know what they REALLY mean (and often out of context, like many Christians do with the Bible). Denver has a different train than the mainstream LDS Church. I am not contending. I feel no anger. My posts are in the spirit of reasoning and trying to address claims and teachings from Denver Snuffer which simply did/do not make sense based on his own stated premises/givens, i.e. continuing or "preserving" the Restoration started by Joseph Smith. Now I recognize that there are plenty of works and mysteries of God which surpass my mortal comprehension, His thoughts are higher than mine, etc. But Denver's claims and teachings actually don't fall in that category. They are fair game. He is a mortal man claiming to speak with approval and authority for Jesus. And many of his claims and teachings, as I read them plainly and in their original context, just flat seem to contradict what Joseph taught and restored and prophesied in their original context. Denver's interpretation/representation of history and revelation and doctrine, again, to me, just seems to ignore, whether inadvertently or deliberately, too many inconvenient facts, including many of the words Joseph claimed to receive directly from the Lord in the original handwritten revelations.

D&C 50
http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSumma ... -dc-50&p=1

10) & now come saith the Lord by the spirit by the Elders of his Church & let us reason together that ye may understand [p. 82]
11) let us reason even as a man reasoneth one with another face to face
12) now when a man reasoneth he under[stand]eth of man because he reasoneth as a man even so will I the Lord reason with you that you may understand
13) wherefore I the Lord asketh you this question unto what were ye ordained
14) to Preach my Gospel by the spirit even the comforter which was sent forth to teach the truth
15) & then received you spirits which ye could not understand & received them to be of God & in this are ye Justified?

Denver said this too. Btw, I give his own words plenty of airtime as I point out the things that don't make sense to me:

http://denversnuffer.com/wp/wp-content/ ... ration.pdf

I have never said this publicly, but because of what I think will ensue after this talk I am going to say it, not for my sake, and certainly not for the sake of anyone who believes the truth or who has the Spirit, but I say it only to benefit those who may view things completely otherwise.9 The Lord has said to me in His own voice, "I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you." Therefore, I want to caution those who disagree with me, to feel free, to feel absolutely free to make the case against what I say. Feel free to disagree, and make your contrary arguments. If you believe I err, then expose the error and denounce it. But take care; take care about what you say concerning me for your sake, not for mine. I live with constant criticism. I can take it. But I do not want you provoking Divine ire by unfortunately chosen words if I can persuade you against it.

[kennyhs]

Nice pic! It's very ethereal. The crossbars look bent and it must be quite a mountain of rocks supporting it. Though not as pretty, I would be more in favor of:

Wow, that is a cool picture, I didn't see that in my search, how dare you out do me! :))

[Jesef]

Daryl, I rescinded the "rules" of the OP here:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39941&p=677934#p676902

You and anyone else who feel Denver is a true messenger/servant/prophet are free to comment here.

And that post going through the original D&C 84 is worth reading (in my opinion). I understand your point, we are not one, many of us seem to be on different trains. Some people are arguing. Some are claiming special privilege and knowledge for their positions (which contradict others doing the same thing). Others are quoting the scriptures like they wrote them or know what they REALLY mean (and often out of context, like many Christians do with the Bible). Denver has a different train than the mainstream LDS Church. I am not contending. I feel no anger. My posts are in the spirit of reasoning and trying to address claims and teachings from Denver Snuffer which simply did/do not make sense based on his own stated premises/givens, i.e. continuing or "preserving" the Restoration started by Joseph Smith. Now I recognize that there are plenty of works and mysteries of God which surpass my mortal comprehension, His thoughts are higher than mine, etc. But Denver's claims and teachings actually don't fall in that category. They are fair game. He is a mortal man claiming to speak with approval and authority for Jesus. And many of his claims and teachings, as I read them plainly and in their original context, just flat seem to contradict what Joseph taught and restored and prophesied in their original context. Denver's interpretation/representation of history and revelation and doctrine, again, to me, just seems to ignore, whether inadvertently or deliberately, too many inconvenient facts, including many of the words Joseph claimed to receive directly from the Lord in the original handwritten revelations.

D&C 50
http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSumma ... -dc-50&p=1

10) & now come saith the Lord by the spirit by the Elders of his Church & let us reason together that ye may understand [p. 82]
11) let us reason even as a man reasoneth one with another face to face
12) now when a man reasoneth he under[stand]eth of man because he reasoneth as a man even so will I the Lord reason with you that you may understand
13) wherefore I the Lord asketh you this question unto what were ye ordained
14) to Preach my Gospel by the spirit even the comforter which was sent forth to teach the truth
15) & then received you spirits which ye could not understand & received them to be of God & in this are ye Justified?

Denver said this too. Btw, I give his own words plenty of airtime as I point out the things that don't make sense to me:

http://denversnuffer.com/wp/wp-content/ ... ration.pdf

I have never said this publicly, but because of what I think will ensue after this talk I am going to say it, not for my sake, and certainly not for the sake of anyone who believes the truth or who has the Spirit, but I say it only to benefit those who may view things completely otherwise.9 The Lord has said to me in His own voice, "I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you." Therefore, I want to caution those who disagree with me, to feel free, to feel absolutely free to make the case against what I say. Feel free to disagree, and make your contrary arguments. If you believe I err, then expose the error and denounce it. But take care; take care about what you say concerning me for your sake, not for mine. I live with constant criticism. I can take it. But I do not want you provoking Divine ire by unfortunately chosen words if I can persuade you against it.

For the record, no "Remnant"/"Preserve the Restoration" believer/follower/adherent has attempted to reason through and explain my D&C 84 post. I'm going to ask Denver to. Does it poke too many holes in the paradigm? Per Denver's own invitation (in that quote above), in this thread I (and others) have made a case against what he has said. I believe he is in error, per many of Joseph Smith's own first-person dictated revelations (the original handwritten ones, folks). I'm not attacking Denver's character. This is not ad hominem. I never even meant "false prophet" as ad hominem - it's simply a value judgment of a purported prophet's teachings/sayings and claims as true or false. I hope Denver responds, even if just to D&C 84.

[Zathura]

Where is your D&C 84 post? I want to read it and give feedback

[Jesef]

Please do. :ymhug:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39941&p=677934#p676902

[Jesef]

I've written to Denver and I hope he responds (I've edited out a few personal references and typos - I typed fast):

Dear Denver,

...I’m sorry I didn’t write to you personally and sooner on this topic. I started a thread a few months ago there [on LDSFF] called “Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?” - apparently it’s an interesting topic to many as it’s close to 12K views in 4 months’ time ... Originally it started as an invitation to discover if there were others, like myself ..., who were once open to your claims being true but decided or concluded eventually, for whatever reason, they were not or could not be. Your claims now are obviously diametrically opposed to those of the LDS Church, in terms of authority, offering of an acceptable baptism, etc. You may or may not find the entire thread interesting or have the time to even consider it - it’s pretty long now, 16 blog pages. But it does cover a lot of reasons or points that you have not addressed, from my perspective anyway. None of those who believe/follow you have provided any intelligent or reasonable responses, again in my opinion, to many of the contradictions/concerns highlighted throughout the thread. It’s neither here nor there - I just expected more from those claiming to possess the revealed truth and custodians of God’s new great and marvelous work and strange act. I also expected persuasion, since that is what you’ve taught, but really just got defensive badgering from most of them - quite disappointing. A movement can’t really be judged by any individual follower - you’ve got a lot of fanatics and spiritual extremists following you - but you seem like a pretty nice guy. I don’t know if you’re deceived, delusional, or what, but I believe you are absolutely sincere - I think you’ve proved that by all that you’ve done and in a principled way. I believe you believe (or think you KNOW) what you are doing is right and good and true - with that you have my respect and good wishes too. I harbor no ill-will toward you. I release and forgive you of all (not that you owe me or have offended me in any way, but I have read many of your words, for which you are responsible - if they are not true). On the contrary, I wish and pray you and your family all the best-of-everything, blessings in this world and the next, in time and eternity. I truly believe in the Christ’s teachings, and that they can be summarized by Love, trying to be/become harmless and helpful, basically the Golden Rule - this, to me, is the pure Gospel in its essence. It is universal, and those ideas of Love alone could unite all the good in humanity. Much of what the LDS Church and you seem to be teaching, now in opposing positions, and with some variation, truly, is that God requires us to do a certain dance, like the hokey-pokey, just right, or we will be burned, cast aside, and judged unworthy of the highest blessings, etc. You’ve painted a picture of a very austere and strict and judgmental God (both Father and Mother) - in my opinion - perhaps this is based on your interpretation of and the credence you give to many scriptures, which you obviously believe to be pure/truthful/faithful transmissions.

I was present at your 10th lecture, in person, with my wife, and to me it felt like a spiritual vacuum (and a bit awkward at times with all those folks cheering, like for 7 women sustaining a man, etc.) - and I’ve been consumed by the Power of the Holy Ghost several times in my life. I expected spiritual confirmation of your message and claims. Nothing. And then eventually, I felt like I received confirmation of the opposite (pertaining to your essential claims, not all of your teachings). I do not claim to have a perfect knowledge of anything really. Now many of your teachings of Christ were confirmed, proof to me that the Holy Ghost witnesses of all truth, everywhere, and by anyone. But your claims are something else. You are claiming a firsthand witness and divine instructions for rebaptism, etc., while at the same time declaring the LDS Church’s authority and ordinances are no longer acceptable, overthrowing of that kingdom basically, the one that so obviously strove with sacrifice and soul to carry on Joseph Smith’s work. In my estimation you’ve done a marvelous reworking of the history to make this fit your new paradigm. All of these should be testable claims, that are so significant and salvific, that, if true, the God of Heaven - Whom you claim to be the Author, Authorizer, Commissioner of - should be willing to validate (I want to say with extreme prejudice or favor, but that doesn’t sound quite right). The LDS Church and its missionaries (as I was over 20 years ago) teaches and expects such a confirmation for far less, in my opinion, i.e. spiritual confirmation of the truth of the Book of Mormon to investigators from all backgrounds before they make any covenants.

Per one of your previous statements, this one, from your 10th talk:

I have never said this publicly, but because of what I think will ensue after this talk I am going to say it, not for my sake, and certainly not for the sake of anyone who believes the truth or who has the Spirit, but I say it only to benefit those who may view things completely otherwise.9 The Lord has said to me in His own voice, "I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you." Therefore, I want to caution those who disagree with me, to feel free, to feel absolutely free to make the case against what I say. Feel free to disagree, and make your contrary arguments. If you believe I err, then expose the error and denounce it. But take care; take care about what you say concerning me for your sake, not for mine. I live with constant criticism. I can take it. But I do not want you provoking Divine ire by unfortunately chosen words if I can persuade you against it.

I’m going to ask you to read and respond to one post, this one:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39941&p=677934#p676902

You can respond on your blog, and I will also post your response (and a link to your blog if you respond there as well) on the LDSFF thread because so many others can read it. I will share anything you respond with on that thread. And you can share this e-mail (minus my identity please) on your blog.

I have a few other questions that only you can answer and I hope you’ll address them. I’ve read several of your books, almost all of your blog, all of your talks, and I’ve kept current on your blog since the 10th lecture as well. I’ve read your testimony in the relevant chapters of Come Let Us Adore Him, too, to which you recently made reference. My questions concerning your testimony and experiences are these: do you claim to possess a perfect knowledge of the reality of Jesus Christ and God the Father; and do you have a physical/tangible witness of the Lord’s bodily resurrection? Or was it all a “whether in or out of the body (you) could not tell” type of spiritual experiences?

Did you ever approach the Brethren/Apostles directly (I mean talk in person) with your concerns and claims? It seems to me like you criticized them from afar and did not attempt to interact with them personally. If that is true, why didn’t you?

Why would God go through all the trouble of a Restoration through Joseph Smith if He/They knew it was all going to fail so miserably, as you’ve basically taught with your version of the history and interpretation of D&C 124? This makes it seem like God doesn’t know what He/They are doing, to have to reboot via you some 172 years later. Your interpretation of God’s judgment of those early LDS is brutal - they didn’t complete the Nauvoo temple (the roof or something) within 3.5 years so they are rejected as a church with their dead? Or is it that they have failed to build Zion, all things common, in that 172 years? I can’t make sense out of your paradigm honestly. Why would the Lord speak as He did in all those sections of the D&C as if this work, His established church, would roll forward - no talk of reboot - if it was just going to be rejected a mere 14 years later. So many of your interpretations seem absurd. Help me out here. Forgive any typos - typed in haste.

I look forward to hopefully hearing from you.

Yours,
Jesef

[Zathura]

I want to preface this fairly long post by rescinding any and all conditions I've said previously about Snuffer/"Remnant"/"Preserve the Restoration" followers not being able to comment here. Have a ball. I welcome your comments. I love you guys and I don't blame you for hanging out on LDSFF - RoJF doesn’t seem very lively. I also invite you not to be offended by my observations. Obviously many of you have sacrificed your memberships in the Church, been rebaptized, as Denver instructed, etc. You have a huge emotional and spiritual investment in your new paradigm. I would just suggest that you choose still to be a learner, instead of a pretend “knower”, in your new paradigm, that you continue to search, think deeply, pray, feel the power of the Spirit, and not become so bipolar to LDS vs Denver, or even accept every word of Snuffer as infallible or pure revelation of truth.

I’m actually convinced at this point that he has taken many liberties and made many mistakes in his teachings. Don’t criticize the LDS for “following the prophet” with Thomas Monson and then be hypocritically doing pretty much exactly the same thing with just a different, new guy, Denver Snuffer. Some of you have demonstrated that you took your thinking caps off maybe after the first time you had some kind of spiritual experience related to something Denver taught. That is not a perfect knowledge by any stretch. Most, if not all, of the spiritual experiences I’ve heard from Snuffer/“Remnant”/“Preserve the Restoration” adherents/followers claiming to validate his claims and teachings, do not constitute anything close to a sure witness. And I’ll also mention that this “reboot” claiming to be the Restoration-now-continuing with Denver as the new restorer (after 4 generations or some such) does not possess any of the gifts, characteristics, and witnesses of the original. There are no corroborating witnesses, sharing the same sure experiences, there are no bona fide “thus saith the Lord” or the Lord in first person revelations, there are no real prophecies or gifts, there are no translations or evidence of restored seership. There is nothing but innovative and imaginative scriptural interpretations/teachings which seem full of contradictions if you really take the time to dig into them. Yet so many are just feeling “enlightened” and feel like this fills so many holes. And, of course, Denver’s criticisms of the “corporate” Church and its “corporate” leaders feeding themselves like “wolves” off the sheep is so “on the mark” (in his and your views), he can’t be wrong, right?

Moreover, if Denver’s message and claims were TRUE, would not the God of Heaven, whom Denver claims to be speaking for, validate this message with POWER? I would expect as strong a spiritual confirmation for such a message as God ever gave to a person. I can say, having sought it diligently and open-heartedly for many months, that this did not occur for me. I came home from his 10th talk, fasted and prayed, and nothing. The poor folks who followed Jim Harmston claimed all kinds of spiritual experiences validating their paradigm. So many voices, so many outrageous claims, so many pretenders! Dreams, visions, visitations - as if those things prove anything true. Every religion has them and validating their own paradigm!

D&C 84 is very interesting because it was received on September 22-23, 1832, on the Fall Equinox, very similar to the times when Joseph was reportedly visited by Moroni, year after year, and eventually received the plates, etc. It is also just 2.5 years after the organization of the Church of Christ (later to be changed to the Church of the Latter-day Saints and eventually The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints). I've seen this section quoted repeatedly by Denver Snuffer and his followers/movement, and they will even often quote President Benson citing it, that the LDS Church is still under this condemnation. What doesn't make sense to me is their interpretation of this.

First of all, if everything went astray after Joseph's death with Brigham Young and successors, why quote Ezra Taft Benson - what value does his interpretation add? He certainly wasn't equating this condemnation with complete rejection. And why quote something from 1832 as if it is referencing the currently living LDS people, as if it applies to us today? Again, is this because of Ezra Taft Benson mentioning it or Dallin H. Oaks repeated him? Why quote PSR's, appealing to their authority, when you are also trying to undermine them? Why not mention that President Benson also eventually said that the condemnation was being lifted because the members had so obediently responded to the call to remember the Book of Mormon and study and use it and live by it, etc.? Do all the 170-year-old Sections of the D&C apply to us today? I don't think so.

Second, why interpret condemnation to mean complete rejection so far in advance of D&C 124 (January 19, 1841)? And furthermore, if the Lord threatened complete rejection of the Church if they did not finish the Nauvoo Temple within a sufficient period of time, why would not sufficient warnings and an actual forthright full condemnation/rejection revelation confirming the impending doom not have followed prior to Joseph's death in June 1844? This doesn't sound like the merciful Lord who repeatedly tries to gather us like a hen gathers her chicks, warns and cries repentance with long-suffering for decades, etc. And then doesn't tell them their deadline is approaching fast, almost out of time? And then rejects them because what, they didn't finish the roof or something? Sorry, 3.5 years is up and I gave you those other buildings you had to finish, by revelation, too. This honestly doesn't make a lick of sense. And how can condemnation be interpreted thus when, later in the same section 84, the Lord calls them his friends?

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSumma ... -dc-84&p=1

A revelation given in Kirtland the 22d & 23d. day of Sept AD 1832 [I added verse numbers, line breaks, and took out unnecessary spaces for readability, left everything else including misspellings]
1) A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his saints servant Joseph and six Elders as they united there hearts in lifting there voice on high,
2) yea the word of the Lord, concerning his church established in the last days. for the restoration of his people as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets and for the gathering, of his saints to stand upon mount Zion which shall be called the city New Jerusalem, [isn't the Lord addressing the Church then, not some Church or Remnant of a church established by Snuffer in 2014?]
3) which city shall be built begining at the temple lot which is appointed by the finger of God the Lord in the western boundaries of the State of Missou[ri] and dedicated by the hand of Joseph and others with whom the Lord was will pleased, [how does this jive with Snuffer's statements about the City being built in the Rocky Mountains?]
4) verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathring of the saints begining at this place, even the place of the Temple, which Temple shall be built <reared> in this generation [was this not supposed to be the Independence Missouri Temple and was not fulfilled? was "this generation" not the generation being addressed by this revelation, i.e. 1832 saints? it honestly wouldn’t make sense to address this to a future generation]
5) for verely this generation shall not all pass away untill an house shalt be built unto the Lord and a cloud shall rest upon it which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord which shall fill the house, [is this a failed prophecy? no conditions seem to be stated or implied…]

6) and the sons of Moses according to the holy Priesthood which he received under the father in Law Jethro, [what holy priesthood? it sounds like high priesthood. by what method? sounds like laying on of hands. Didn't Snuffer say high priesthood could only be transmitted by the voice of God? how does this reconcile? if Joseph knew and believed this, would it not be reflected in this revelation on priesthood?]
7) and Jethro received it u[n]der the ha[n]d of Caleb.
8) and Caleb received it under the hand of Elihu
9) and Elihu under the hand of Jeremy
10) and Jeremy under the hand of Gad
11) and Gad under the hand of Esaias
12) and Esaius received it under the hand of God, [interesting statement, "it" definitely doesn't sound like Aaronic Priesthood since the first guy mentioned in verse 6 is Moses...]
13) Esaius lived also lived in the days of Abraham and was blessed of him
14) which Abraham received the Priesthood from Melchesedec who received it through the linage of his fathers even till Noah, [what priesthood? Melchizedek priesthood]
15) and from Noah till Enoch, through the linage of there fathers
16) and from Enoch to abel who was slain by the conspiracy of his brother who received the Priesthood by the commandment of God by the hand of his father Adam who was the first man,
17) which Priesthood continueth in the church of God in all generations and is without begining of days or end of years [confirmed by description here, Melchizedek Priesthood, doesn’t sound like priesthood is separated from “the church of God” but continues IN it in all generations]

[This is the same language used in the quotes that Denver repeatedly referred to in his Priesthood lecture but he emphasized that it can only be received by the voice of God, etc. "All the prophets had the Melchizedek priesthood and were ordained by God himself." And JST Genesis 14:26-36:
“ 26 Now Melchizedek was a man of faith, who wrought righteousness; and when a child he feared God, and stopped the mouths of lions, and quenched the violence of fire.
27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained an high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch,
28 It being after the order of the Son of God; which order came, not by man, nor the will of man; neither by father nor mother; neither by beginning of days nor end of years; but of God;
29 And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name.
30 For God having sworn unto Enoch and unto his seed with an oath by himself; that every one being ordained after this order and calling should have power, by faith, to break mountains, to divide the seas, to dry up waters, to turn them out of their course;
31 To put at defiance the armies of nations, to divide the earth, to break every band, to stand in the presence of God; to do all things according to his will, according to his command, subdue principalities and powers; and this by the will of the Son of God which was from before the foundation of the world.
32 And men having this faith, coming up unto this order of God, were translated and taken up into heaven.
33 And now, Melchizedek was a priest of this order; therefore he obtained peace in Salem, and was called the Prince of peace.
34 And his people wrought righteousness, and obtained heaven, and sought for the city of Enoch which God had before taken, separating it from the earth, having reserved it unto the latter days, or the end of the world;
35 And hath said, and sworn with an oath, that the heavens and the earth should come together; and the sons of God should be tried so as by fire.
36 And this Melchizedek, having thus established righteousness, was called the king of heaven by his people, or, in other words, the King of peace.”

Can’t argue that I don’t see this type of power being manifested by MP leaders in the Church today, but I can’t think of any examples of Joseph Smith demonstrating this either, and certainly not Denver Snuffer, so if we’re going to use this as a standard by which to judge, all fail in my opinion. I also believe that Denver has taken too hard a stance on “delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice” as this is sort of ambiguous and does not preclude transmission by laying on of hands as Section 84 here clearly states (i.e. Genesis 14 doesn’t stand alone from D&C 84 which are both talking about the same Priesthood - “without beginning of days or end of years” proves that). Denver seems to be cherry-picking again. But he claims firsthand experience and implies that he has received not only this priesthood and the presence of the Son, but that he possesses the Third “Patriarchal Priesthood” and sealing power directly from the Father, so, in other words, he claims he KNOWS and that his is not merely opinion or scriptural interpretation. The only way to settle it, is to receive confirmation one way or the other from God by the power of the Holy Ghost, etc.]

[…back to D&C 84…]
18) and the Lord confirmed a priesthood also upon Aaron and his seed throughout all the generations of the Jews. which priesthood also continueth and abideth for ever with the Priesthood which is after the holiest order of God, [very clear distinction between the TWO priesthoods]
19) and this greater Priesthood adminestereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the misteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God
20) therefore in the ordinences thereof the power of Godliness is manifest [still talking about the greater or Melchizedek priesthood]
21) and without the ordinences thereof, and the authority of the Priesthood, the power of Godliness is not manifest unto man in the flesh,
22) for without this no man can see the face of God even the father and live,
23) now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and saught diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God,
24) but they hardened ther hearts and could not endure his presence therefore the Lord in his wrath (for his anger was kindled against them) swore that they should not enter into his rest, which rest is the fulness of his glory
25) while in the wilderness, therefore he took Moses out of there midst and the holy Priesthood also,
26) and the lesser Priesthood continued, which Priesthood holdeth the keys of the ministring of Angels and the preparitory gospel, [very distinctive between TWO priesthoods again, Melchizedek Priesthood has been called “the greater priesthood” and “the holy priesthood”, Aaronic Priesthood is called the “lesser priesthood”]
27) which gospel is the gospel of repentence and of Baptism, and the remission of sins, and the Law of carnal commandments — which the lord in his wrath caused to continue with the house of Aaron among the children of Israel until John whom God raised up being fillid with the holy ghost from his Mothers womb, for he was baptised while he was yet in his the mothers womb
28) and was ordained by the Angel of God at the time he was eight days old unto this power to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews and to make straight the way of the Lord [p. [1]] before the face of his people to prepare them for the coming of the Lord in whose hand is given all power, [Denver implies he is like John the Baptist, overthrowing the kingdom of the Mormons and “wresting the keys” like John did from the Jews. Why wasn’t Denver then ordained by an Angel when he was young? And this is an absurd comparison because the Lord identifies the Church as His in verse 2 of this section. The Remnant loves to draw parallels, and it seems any parallel will do, even if it contradicts itself absurdly.]
29) and again, the offices of Elder & Bishop are necessary appendages belon[g]ing unto the high Priesthood, [uh, this sounds like offices are necessary appendages to the priesthood, and this ties the priesthood even more TO the Church, not independent of it, contrary to Denver’s teachings. It does not sound like he is “preserving” or continuing Joseph’s teachings, but transforming them and innovating them into a more freelance/evangelical form, de-institutionalizing, you don’t need an organization or order or leaders or offices or anything. This simply doesn’t agree with most of the D&C, including this section, and the Remnant tries to explain this by accusing the D&C of alteration and manipulation by post-JS leaders like BY - and yet it is all right here in the original handwriting if you follow the links to the Joseph Smith Papers Project… Or they say “the Lord was just giving the (wicked) Saints what they really wanted” (now they are calling it an Old Testament church, was a New Testament church) - this doesn’t hold water in my opinion, given the obvious sacrifice and dedication of the body of the Saints from this time period, many who gave up everything to gather to Joseph’s revealed locations and go on missions, etc. It’s even more absurd to question the dedication and sacrifice of BY and the 1844 Twelve, Joseph’s closest disciples. Absurdity after absurdity - I can hardly stand it! But I’ll keep going. Endure to the end, of the insanity.]
30) and again the offices of Teacher and Deacon are necessary appendages belonging to the lesser Priesthood, which priesthood was confirmed upon Aaron and his sons [more offices, now AP]
31) therefore as I said, concerning the Sons of Moses, for the sons of Moses, and also the sons of Aaron shall offer an aaceptable offering and sacrifice in the house of the Lord which house shall shalt be built unto the Lord in this generation upon the consecrated spot as I have appointed [Independence or Nauvoo?]
32) and the sons of Moses, and of Aaron shall be filled with the glory of the Lord upon mount Zion in the Lords house whose sons are ye, and also many whom I have called and sent forth to build up my church [whose Church? sounds pretty organized and governed by priesthood authority to me. If you don’t like it, you don’t like Joseph Smith. If you believe the Lord God was really speaking to Joseph Smith, it’s kinda hard to dismiss all these things…]
33) for whoso is faithful unto the attaining of these two Priesthoods of which I have spoken and the magnifying there calling are sanctified by the spirt unto the renewing of there bodies [I don’t think ordination magically imbues one with power, but Pres. Packer and LDS leaders have also taught this clearly over the years. Faith precedes magnifying and sanctification. The Spirit only honors goodness and faith, or righteousness in God. Ratifying power of the Holy Spirit of Promise is attached to everything performed in the name of God.]
34) that they become the sons of Moses and of Aaron and the seed of Abraham and the church and kingdom and the elect of God [Church and Kingdom?]
35) and also all they who receive this Priesthood receiveth me saith the Lord [receive it by the laying on of hands, by ordination? this sounds somewhat symbolic, this chain of receiving in these few verses - could become literal - doesn’t say when - but sounds very representative like “whether by mine own voice or the voice of my servants it is the same” and promised blessings kind of language. Btw, the Remnant movement has made a very big deal about receiving Christ “in the flesh” - while you are in your mortal body - that if you do not qualify for the Second Comforter, as interpreted, you are not going to be Celestial. I don’t believe this is what the word receive means there or here…]
36) for he that receiveth my servants receveth me, [who are His servants? Denver teaches almost always these are heavenly “angels” but D&C clearly contradicts this if you do a simple word search in D&C for all the instances of “servants” you will almost invariably find human names associated, like Joseph Smith and his brethren bringing forth the work.]
37) and he that receiveth me receiveth my father,
38) and he that receiveth my father, receiveth my fathers kingdom, therefore all that my father hath shall be given unto him
39) and this is according to the oath and the covenant which belongeth to the Priesthood,
40) therefore all those. who receive the Priesthood, receiveth this oath and covenant of my father which he cannot break neither can it be mooved, [Denver interprets this literally, so you are in the actual presence of God the Father receiving this covenant face to face. I believe it could happen. Denver Snuffer and Dan Rogers are the only people I know in the Remnant movement who are claiming this. The language being used is “whether in or out of the body I (they) could not tell” which sounds like a vivid/lucid dream or even an awake third-eye type vision to me. Why so few when the teaching is that everyone can and should? You all must be unworthy dross]
41) but whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom shall not have forgivness in this world nor in the world to come [what constitutes receiving the covenant? is it simply ordination or ratification/sealing of it by the voice of God?]
42) and all those that come not unto this Priesthood, which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day viz the 23d. day of September AD 1832 Eleven high Priests save one by by mine own voice out of the heavens and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine Angels charge concerning you, [Aha! Sounds like it is by ordination by the laying on of hands and then confirmed by the voice of God - did those present hear anyone’s voice besides Joseph’s dictating the revelation? If you had any doubts about who “this generation” was and whether the Lord was speaking to those present and at that time, this settles it! “According to a 14 January 1833 letter from Orson Hyde and Hyrum Smith that mentions this revelation, the high priests in attendance were the same twelve that met in a conference on 13–14 January 1833. Those high priests were JS, Sidney Rigdon, Joseph Smith Sr., Hyrum Smith, Ezra Thayer, Zebedee Coltrin, Newel K. Whitney, John Murdock, Frederick G. Williams, Joseph Coe, Samuel Smith, and Orson Hyde. However, Samuel Smith and Hyde were preaching in the eastern states in September. Subtracting them from the number leaves “Eleven high Priests save one,” if JS is included as one of the high priests.”]
43) and I now give unto you a commandment to beware concerning yourselves to give heed dilligently to the words of eternal life
44) for you shall live by evry word that procedeth forth from the mouth of God
45) for the word of the Lord is truth and whatsoever is truth is light, and whatsoever is light is spirit even the spirit of Jesus Christ,
46) and the spirit giveth light to evry man that cometh into the world, and the spirit enlightneth evry man through the world that harkneth to the voice of the spirit,
47) and evry one that harkneth to the voice of the spirit cometh unto God even the father
48) and the father teacheth him of the covenant which he hath renewed and confirmed upon you which is confirmed upon you for your sakes and and not for yours only, but for the sake of the whole world, [the covenant! these Saints received it with the greater priesthood! listed above in my notes]
49) and the whole world lieth in sin and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin
50) and by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin because they come not unto me
51) for whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin,
52) and whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquanted with my word voice. and is not of me,
53) and, by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sins and darkness even now,
54) and your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief and because you have treated lightly the things you have received
55) which vanity and and unbelief hath brought the whole church under condemnation
56) and this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion even all,
57) and thay shall remain [p. [2]] under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant even the book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say but to do according to that which I have writen [the new covenant isn’t just the Book of Mormon but also “the former commandments which I have given them”, condemnation wasn’t permanent or final or total, but until they repent and remember, etc. He calls them children, not strangers, etc. I don’t think this condemnation means what the Remnant represents it as.]
58) that they may bring forth fruit meet for there fathers kingdom otherwise there remaineth a scorge and a Judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion [now that is a warning, and it sure seems like it was poured out with their removal west.]
59) for shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land verily Verily I say unto you na[y].
60) verily, verily, I say unto you who now hear my words which is my voice blessed are you inasmuch as you receive these things
61) for I will forgive you of your sins with this commandment that you remain steadfast in your minds in solemnity and the spirit of p[r]ayer in bearing testamony to all the world of those things which are communicated unto you, [what?! He will forgive them if they bear testimony? has the Church done that?]
62) therefore go ye into all the world and whatsoever place ye cannot go into ye shall send, that the testamony may go from you into all the world unto every creature,
63) and as I said unto mine apostles even so <I> says unto you, for you are mine Apostles, even Gods High priests ye are they whom my father hath given me, ye are my friends [what?! Christ is calling them his Apostles and God’s High priests and his friends! doesn’t sound like rejection to me. Maybe His servants are these guys. Maybe his injunction in D&C 1, November 1831, “& the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord neither his servants neith[er] give heed to the words of the Prophets & Apostles shall be cut off from among the People” - maybe the definition is retroactive - who are His People? and further in D&C 1 “that every man might Speak in the name of God the Lord even the Saveiour of the world that faith also might increase in the Earth that mine everlasting Covenant might be established that the fullness of my Gospel might be proclaimed by the weak & the Simple unto the ends of the world & before kings & Rulers [this is talking to Joseph and his brethren, how are Denver and his band supposed to fulfill this?] Behold I am God & have spoken it these are commandments are of me & were given unto my Servents in their weakness [note: not heavenly angels as Denver teaches, but Joseph and his brethren, and presumably successors in the work for heaven’s sake!] after the manner of their Language that they might come to understanding & inasmuch as they erred it might be made known & inasmuch as they sought wisdom it might be made known instructed & inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened [all the condemnation and rejection which Denver and the Remnant ascribe to the Church and Saints could be better viewed as chastening in my opinion] that they might repent & inasmuch as they were humble they might be made strong & blessed from on high & receive knowledge from time to time After they having received the record of the Nephites yea even my Servant Joseph might have power to translate through the mercy of God by the power of [God] the Book of Mormon & also those to whom these commandments were given might have power to lay the foundation of this Church & to bring it forth out of obscurity & out of darkness the only true & living Church upon the face of the whole Earth with which I [p. 126] the Lord am well pleased speaking unto the Church collectively & not individually” and “& willeth that all men shall know that the day speedily cometh the hour is not yet but is nigh at hand when peace shall be taken from the Earth & the Devil shall have power over his own dominion & also the Lord shall have power over his saints & shall reign in their midst & shall come down in Judgement upon Idumea (or the World) search these commandments for they are true & faithfull & the Prophecies & promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled what I the Lord have spoken I have spoken & I excuse not myself & though the Heaven & <the> Earth pass away my word shall not pass away but shall all be fulfilled whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my Servants it is the same for Behold & Lo the Lord is God & the Spirit beareth record & the [record] is true & the truth abideth for ever & ever Amen [p. 127]” - “my Servants” is NOT angels!]
64) therefore as I said unto mine Apostles I say unto you again that evry soul who believeth on your words and are baptized by water for the remission of there sins shall receive the holy-ghost,
65) and these signs shall follow them,
66) in my name they shall do many wonderful works,
67) in my name they shall cast out devels.
68) in my name they shall heal the sick
69) in my name they shall open the eyes of the blind and unstop the ears of the deaf,
70) and the tongue of the dumb shall speak,
71) and if any man shall administer poison unto them it shall not hurt them,
72) and the poison of the <a> serpent shall not [have] power to harm them,
73) but a commandment I give unto them that they shall not boast themselves of these things, neither speak them before the world for these things are given unto you for your proffet and for salvation, [what?! They’re not supposed to boast or blare their miraculous and powerful spiritual experiences, blessings, and signs?! someone always talks though, right? that’s one thing we learned from the Lord’s miracles…]
74) verily, verily I say unto you he who believeth not on your words, and are not baptized by water in my name for the remission of there sins, that they may receive the holy ghost shall be damned and shall not come into my fathers kingdom where my father and I am [man, what the hell?! Now we’ve got to go get rebaptized the Denver Snuffer way because God moved the ball? And all those 100’s of millions of temple baptisms and ordinances for the dead - sorry, waste of time, all rejected! And you Remnant folks are going to have to start all over and you don’t even have one temple yet… ugh!]
75) and this revelation unto you and commandment is in force from this very hour upon all the world, and this gospel is unto all who have not received it, [I’ll just point out that this seems like a pretty lame commandment if God just knows it’s all going to tank really just 12 years from then. Why bother? Why keep leading these people on?]
76) but verily I say unto all those to whom the kingdom has been given from you it must be preached unto them that they shall repent of ther former evil works for they are to be upbraded for there evil hearts of unbelief and your brethren in Zion for there rebellion against you at the time I sent you,
77) and again I say unto you my friends, for from this time forth I shall call you friends, it is expedient that I give unto you this commandment that you become even as my friends in days when I was with them in travling to preach this gospel in my power [Wow! the Lord calls them His friends again.]
78) for I suffered them not to have purse or scrip, neither two coats
79) behold I send you out to proove the world, and the Laborer is worthy of his hire
80) and any man that shall go and preach this gospel of the kingdom and fail not to continue [p. [3]] faithful in all things shall not be weary in mind neither darkened neither body limb, limb, or Joint and an hair of your heads shall not fall to the ground unnoti[c]ed and they shall not go hungry, neither athirst, [promises, promises, and “this gospel of the kingdom” - why would God need to reboot such a thing - doesn’t He know enough to do His work and make it successful?]
81) therefore take no thought for the morrow for what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink or wherewith all ye shall ye shall be clothed
82) for consider the lillies of the field how they grow they toil not neither do they spin and the kingdoms of the world in all ther glory are not arayed like one of them
83) for your father who art in heaven knoweth that you have need of all these thing
84) therefore let the morrow take thought for the things of itself,
85) neither take ye thought before hand what ye shall say but treasure up in your minds continually the words of life and it shall be given you in the very hour that po[r]tion that shall be meeted unto evry man
86) therefore let no man among you (for this commandment is unto all the faithful who are called of God in the church unto the ministry) therefore let no man from this hour take purse or scrip that goeth forth to proclaim this gospel of the kingdom [doesn’t sound like we do this anymore, just observing - it’s never been practical, so I don’t think that’s a good excuse]
87) behold I send you out to reproove the world of all there unrighteous deeds and to t[ea]ch them of a Judgment which is to come [who’d he send out? none other than those 1844 Twelve that Denver loves to castigate]
88) and whoso receiveth you there I will be also for I will go before your face I will be on your right hand and on your lift [left] and my spirit shall be in your hearts and mine Angels round about you to bear you up, [there’s that word “receive” again, and it seems very clear here that it means to accept and believe and the other stuff seems fairly figurative or at least invisible]
89) whoso receiveth you receiveth me and the same will feed you and clothe you, and give you money [there it is again, whoso receiveth them, the servants of the Lord, receiveth the Lord - again, this seems figurative not literal]
90) and he who feedeth you or chothe you or giveth you money shall in no wise loose his reward [so these emissaries represent the Lord and His church and kingdom]
91) and he that doeth not these things is not my deciple, by this you may know my deciples
92) he that receiveth you not, go away from him, alone by your selves and cleanse your feet even with water, pur water, whether in heat or in cold and bare testamony of it unto your father which is in heaven and return not again unto that man, [we don’t do this anymore either, just observing]
93) and in whatsoevr village or city ye enter do likewise,
94) nevertheless search dilligently and spare not, wo unto that house, or that village or city that rejecteth you or your words or testamony concerning me, [pretty strong language and for rejecting whom? the Lord’s truly authorized servant/Apostles/high-priests, who represent Him. God doesn’t do things in a corner. If he was going to overthrow His own kingdom, I expect a little more proof and power.]
95) wo I say again unto that house or that village or city that rejecteth you or your words or your testamony of me
96) for I the Almighty have laid my hand upon the nations to scorge them for ther wickedness
97) and plagues shall go forth and it shall not be taken from the earth untill I have completed my work which shall be cut short in righteousness [seems like this is still in progress]
98) until all shall know me who remain even from the least to the greatest and shall be filled with the knowledge of the Lord and shall see eye to eye, and shall lift up the voice, and with the voice together sing this new song, saying [sounds like this work just continues until Zion and the Millennial reign of Christ, no reboot mentioned anywhere that I can see. Sounds like Daniel, like the kingdom shall not be left to other people. There won’t be a remnant.]
99) the lord hath brought again Zion the Lord hath redeemed his people Israel, according to the election of grace which was brought to pass by the faith and covenant of ther fathers,
100) the Lord hath redeemed his people and Satan is bound and time is no longer the Lord hath gathered all things in one the Lord hath brought down Zion from above the Lord hath brought up Zion from benieth
101) the earth hath travailed and brought forth her [p. [4]]

Section 84 seems fairly word for word. I could detect no substantive changes or additions. This one revelation contradicts and invalidates many of Denver Snuffer’s claims and teachings, as I read it. Sorry for the length. I hope this helps. I think I may write to Denver myself, as endless did, and point him to this thread and this post. Perhaps he will respond.

As a preface to this quick response , I will say that I too read everything he said, and this was during one of the highest spiritual moments of my life, and I wanted to know if it were true. There were a few times that I felt the Spirit of God come upon me, but I did not receive what I know I need to receive to KNOW that DS is God's Messenger. After awhile, I gave up the search in the same manner as you.

Now, as far as them quoting Elder Taft Benson, this doesn't really contradict anything they say , because Denver Snuffer still believes that any one of those men can say something inspired of the Holy Ghost, and it would be true, that includes the men who have succeeded Brigham Young.

Denver didn't claim that Elder Benson thought that the condemnation meant full rejection, and Denver didn't say the Church was rejected until Conference of 2014. He actually said that he didn't know this until after the fact, he claimed that the Lord explained to him that this was his plan from the beginning.

As far as what you said about "updates on their condemnation status", did the Lord do it that frequently with other people? Did he update Israel from day to day and tell them if they were fearing other Gods or fearing him? Is that not why they ended up enslaved in Egypt? How often did he warn them that they would be enslaved? When they were about to be enslaved, did he give them a final warning?

How about the Nephites? Did he give frequent updates to them on their state? Did he tell them something would happen?

To me, I see that the Lord did the same thing in all circumstances. In Nauvoo, he said *paraphrasing*," if you don't build this house, you will be visited with tribulations and judgements and your leaders will be removed from their place"

Soon after, those 2 leaders were killed, then many members died and suffered as they headed west. Sure seems to me like their leaders were removed out of their places and they were visited with judgements.

What happened to the Nephites? God gave similar warnings. The day before the tribulations started, did God say, "okay, you have like 2 more years of this before I punish you"?
It seemed that the Prophets prophesied of what would happen, and eventually, the prophesied consequences just came.

And, to what you said about people who accept Denver Snuffer and how you would expect God to witness of him with POWER, I agree. That would only make sense for God to witness unto his church of a new Messenger. I also see some who accept Denver as a Messenger doing what they accuse "TBM's" of doing, and saying they "KNOW", when they don't really "KNOW", but really really believe.

I also didn't see anything significant in D&C 84, probably because I don't know what I'm supposed to see there.

There's my feedback

[deep water]

So please, if you were on the Denver Snuffer train and eventually jumped off, feel free to share your stories and experiences and discuss. I'll share mine apart from the OP very shortly.

Jesef, In fear of violating the rules of your OP limiting replies to only those who "were on the Denver Snuffer train and eventually jumped off" I feel I must reply with an alternate answer. The question you should be asking is whether Denver Snuffer is still on the Daryl train? Seriously. Or your could extend that to is obrien still on the blarsen train? Or perhaps is brlenox still on the jules train? But the most important question is of course, Is the Lord Jesus Christ on the Jesef train? Because none of this stuff matters if we don't lay down our weapons (keyboards) and become one mind.

For now the trains are all divergent. Until we all hook up to the Lord's engine and are tugged by His strength and are are of one heart, one mind with all in common... That is what our focus should be.

As for Denver Snuffer I appreciate his works. I feel parity with him. I am at peace with who he is and who I am.

Its time to hook up to the train, it moves fast, Jesus Christ is the conductor of the train.

I'm not interested in a self-proclaimed conductor, who puts himself on my train, or myself on his, with grandiose claims which has caused some to lose their ticket, and then say it doesn't matter. Denver Snuffers claims do not guarantee that he is an authentic conductor, he merely seems to
desire a trainload of people, preferring to lead rather than be led, while taking them off the correct track.

Jesus Christ leads the Church , He directs the Prophet, I follow this route. I have never been led down the wrong track by
by holding on to this truth, for it is HIS church, He chooses His Prophet and Apostles, and I sustain them.

That's my train analogy.

Very very interesting that you would post a graven image of an object that was not proceeding in an straight course. Very interesting indeed. Do you enjoy crooked paths, or just so use to them, that you see no humor in posting one's opinion as one??

[Jesef]

deep water, is that the spirit of contention right there, filled with pride and self-righteousness? It sounds like it. Only you would know what inspired you to write that, and I hope I'm wrong. Kennyhs, how do you feel as you read it?

Besides, the track isn't crooked, it's curved. From a physics perspective, it reminds me of eternal rounds, orbits, the equatorial line. A "straight" line on a spherical surface has a curve to it, from a certain relativistic perspective. In any case, it didn't seem like you were joking. My beef with the picture was the curved railroad ties and the unrealistic mountain of rocks apparently supporting the track - but I was kidding.

[kennyhs]

deep water, is that the spirit of contention right there, filled with pride and self-righteousness? It sounds like it. Only you would know what inspired you to write that, and I hope I'm wrong. Kennyhs, how do you feel as you read it?

Besides, the track isn't crooked, it's curved. From a physics perspective, it reminds me of eternal rounds, orbits, the equatorial line. A "straight" line on a spherical surface has a curve to it, from a certain relativistic perspective. In any case, it didn't seem like you were joking. My beef with the picture was the curved railroad ties and the unrealistic mountain of rocks apparently supporting the track - but I was kidding.

My first thought was to look for scriptures on graven image. ( thanks for kidding with me Jesef, and for defending my picture! )

Exodus 20: 3-4

3. Thou shalt have no other god's before me.
4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image or any likeness of anything that is in my heaven above,
or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

The Church of Jesus Christ of LDSaints has a beautiful statue of Christ, ( the Christis) on display at Temple Square.
We have Cherubs, pictures, busts, etc.

So what does worshipping a graven entail?

[Matthew.B]

Jesef, I'm curious what source you're thinking of when you make the statement that "President Benson also eventually said that the condemnation was being lifted because the members had so obediently responded to the call to remember the Book of Mormon...". I'd be interested in reading your source.

Also, are you going to respond to Stahura's comments? Just curious.

Peace.

[Daryl]

Sorry for disrespect to whatever.
My full honor goes to Him.

[Jesef]

Did you disrespect whatever? I didn't read any disrespect.

I liked Stahura's response, will respond when I have time. Denver replied that he basically doesn't have the time right now - I will also post his full, but brief, reply to my e-mail posted above.

[Matthew.B]

Also, don't forget to link the source for President Benson's statement that the condemnation was being lifted. Thanks!

[AI2.0]

Did you disrespect whatever? I didn't read any disrespect.

I liked Stahura's response, will respond when I have time. Denver replied that he basically doesn't have the time right now - I will also post his full, but brief, reply to my e-mail posted above.

That's a polite way to give you the brush off, IMO, but he DID respond, so that's something.

I think he responded to endlessismyname because he saw a person who might be persuaded to believe him, and in you, he's sees someone who's going to see the contradictions and discrepancies in his arguments. It's not worth his time.

[Zathura]

Nah, you're looking too much into it. You happen to email him when he's busy.

He has responded to my questions and answered them , he has also not even responded to my emails period.
It's just timing .

[Jesef]

I was wrong, and going off memory, as far as President Benson saying the condemnation was lifting. I was 15 when I heard that talk by live broadcast. Here's what he actually said and if you reread the whole talk he said many interesting things about the Book of Mormon and the condemnation:
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... n?lang=eng

I'm going to quote just a few parts because they left that impression in my mind that we were heading in the right direction:

This has been a landmark year in the history of the Church in the use of the keystone of our religion—the Book of Mormon. This sacred volume of scripture has brought more souls to Christ, both within and without the Church, than ever before.

There are so many who could be commended for this progress, but time will permit mention of only a few.

We commend all those who had a part in producing and distributing the Church video on the Book of Mormon entitled How Rare a Possession. That video has had a powerful impact in the lives of its viewers, and tens of thousands of copies were distributed in the first weeks after its initial showing.

We commend you leaders and teachers of the various Church organizations for your inspired use of the Book of Mormon in helping to rear a generation that can redeem Zion. In many cases a little child has led a parent to the Lord through the Book of Mormon reading program in the Primary.

We commend the members of the Church who have participated in the family-to-family Book of Mormon program, placing their pictures and testimonies inside copies of the Book of Mormon. These testimonies have been translated into many languages, and the books have been given away by our missionaries around the world. This is helping to bring in tens of thousands of converts each year.

We commend those responsible for the excellent articles on the Book of Mormon which have appeared in our Church publications.

We commend the personnel of radio stations who broadcast excerpts from the Book of Mormon.

We commend those who have sponsored and supported faith-building Book of Mormon lectures and symposiums.

We commend many of you who in an edifying manner have taught classes, given talks, authored articles, and written books on the Book of Mormon.

And finally and most important, we commend that vast number of faithful Saints who individually and as families are changing their lives, cleansing the inner vessel, through the daily reading of the Book of Mormon.

...

The time is long overdue for a massive flooding of the earth with the Book of Mormon for the many reasons which the Lord has given. In this age of the electronic media and the mass distribution of the printed word, God will hold us accountable if we do not now move the Book of Mormon in a monumental way.

We have the Book of Mormon, we have the members, we have the missionaries, we have the resources, and the world has the need. The time is now!

My beloved brothers and sisters, we hardly fathom the power of the Book of Mormon, nor the divine role it must play, nor the extent to which it must be moved.

...

I challenge all of us to prayerfully consider steps that we can personally take to bring this new witness for Christ more fully into our own lives and into a world that so desperately needs it.

I have a vision of homes alerted, of classes alive, and of pulpits aflame with the spirit of Book of Mormon messages.

I have a vision of home teachers and visiting teachers, ward and branch officers, and stake and mission leaders counseling our people out of the most correct of any book on earth—the Book of Mormon.

I have a vision of artists putting into film, drama, literature, music, and paintings great themes and great characters from the Book of Mormon.

I have a vision of thousands of missionaries going into the mission field with hundreds of passages memorized from the Book of Mormon so that they might feed the needs of a spiritually famished world.

I have a vision of the whole Church getting nearer to God by abiding by the precepts of the Book of Mormon.

Indeed, I have a vision of flooding the earth with the Book of Mormon.

My beloved Saints, I am now entering my ninetieth year. I am getting older and less vigorous and am so grateful for your prayers and for the support of my younger Brethren. I thank the Lord for renewing my body from time to time so that I can still help build His kingdom.

I do not know fully why God has preserved my life to this age, but I do know this: That for the present hour He has revealed to me the absolute need for us to move the Book of Mormon forward now in a marvelous manner. You must help with this burden and with this blessing which He has placed on the whole Church, even all the children of Zion.

Moses never entered the promised land. Joseph Smith never saw Zion redeemed. Some of us may not live long enough to see the day when the Book of Mormon floods the earth and when the Lord lifts His condemnation. (See D&C 84:54–58.) But, God willing, I intend to spend all my remaining days in that glorious effort. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

So bottom line, I was wrong on that point, but there was quite a bit of commending going on in that talk. But it is also clear that condemnation does not mean rejection.

[Jesef]

Denver's reply that he doesn't have the time at present...

I do not have the time to type a response to your lengthy inquiry at present. I am preparing for a federal jury trial and do not have available time to even attempt it. However, I've already covered these issues with what I've written.

Try to read what I've written as harmonious and consistent. Do not impose conflict, but instead impose consistency and you will find your answers.

You can always read conflict into the scriptures. If, for example, you take the Lord's announcement that He was going up to Jerusalem as an absolute, you could create a conflict with His subsequent visit to the Nephites. You could conclude that the Book of Mormon is false because it portrays the Lord visiting Bountiful when He said in the New Testament that He was going to Jerusalem. His Jerusalem visit was temporary, transitory and subject to later change or movement.

But to respond briefly, everything is in motion. As events happen, what was true at one moment is no longer the case at another, later moment.

The Temple was not finished before Joseph and Hyrum were killed. At the time of their deaths it was only completed to the second floor walls. When the endowments were performed they were done in an unfinished attic space with the canvas which had been ordered for the outside tabernacle tent used as temporary partitions between areas. As they left in February 1846 the last prayer of the apostles was that they would be able to finish the Temple and dedicate it. The following day it caught fire in the attic space and burned through the roof.

They managed to get the fire out and later recovered the burned roof, but never finished the interior, and never finished the Temple. They finally determined to "regard it as sufficiently finished to dedicate" and dedicated it. But it was never a completed structure. I've written all this before and provided the historic source material to reconstruct the events.

Deseret Book published a volume that conceded the Nauvoo Temple was never finished. It was not a terribly controversial subject at one point.

In the last book I walk through the events which happened in the order they occurred which resulted in the changes now happening. It is the final chapter of that book.

-Denver Snuffer

That's fair. I understand he is busy. I don't think he will respond further, even if the time permits. I like the fact that he works and doesn't take people's money. I think the guy has shown great integrity to his beliefs and ideals - in other words, I really think and feel that he is absolutely sincere in his views.

I really don't buy this historical or revelatory interpretation that the tenderly merciful and kind Lord God of Heaven and earth, Christ/Messiah, gave those poor striving Saints only 3.5 years to finish the Nauvoo Temple and then rejected all of them and took up the sealing power, etc., with Joseph and Hyrum. It's really an austere and judgmental portrayal of God. I may follow up with a brief e-mail after reading the "final chapter of that [last] book" whether that means rereading the final chapter of Passing the Heavenly Gift or if he meant Preserving the Restoration - I guess I'll see which - but if it is unsatisfactory and does not answer the other questions I posed, I will point that out to him at least.

[Separatist]

It's not just 3.5 yrs. Its 14+ yrs (counting from 1830). The Lord encouraged the establishing of Zion from the beginning. We are now 180+ yrs on. His mercy has been extended this whole time in giving us a lesser "which ... holdeth the key of the ministering of angels and the preparatory gospel;
Which gospel is the gospel of repentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments"

He in his mercy is extending His arm again, through an unauthorized, wilderness type messenger. It rhymes with what has gone on before.

[Jesef]

But to respond briefly, everything is in motion. As events happen, what was true at one moment is no longer the case at another, later moment.

As I reread it, this is probably the most salient point he makes.

The entire rereading of D&C 1 (the original) bears on the subject, where the Lord calls the Church the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth.

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSumma ... b-dc-1&p=3

But this part in particular:

search these commandments for they are true & faithfull & the Prophecies & promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled what I the Lord have spoken I have spoken & I excuse not myself & though the Heaven & <the> Earth pass away my word shall not pass away but shall all be fulfilled whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my Servants it is the same for Behold & Lo the Lord is God & the Spirit beareth record & the [record] is true & the truth abideth for ever & ever Amen [p. 127]

Stahura, not sure you caught some of my points from D&C 84 post, but one of them was that "servants", as used in the D&C, does not "almost invariably" refer to heavenly angels. I mentioned this earlier in this thread as a contradiction or false teaching. Almost everytime the Lord makes reference to servants in the D&C, He is referring to Joseph Smith and his brethren bringing forth, establishing, and building up the church and kingdom of God. He does it even in D&C 1 too, here:

these are commandments are of me & were given unto my Servents in their weakness after the manner of their Language that they might come to understanding & in as much as they erred it might be made known & in as much as they sought wisdom it might be made known instructed & in as much as they sinned they might be chastened that they might repent & in as much as they were humble they might be made strong & blessed from on high & receive knowledge from time to time [obviously not heavenly Angels]

Another point was that Denver taught repeatedly in his Priesthood lecture that the higher priesthood could only be given by the voice of God. But Section 84 clearly teaches transmission/ordination by the laying on of hands by another High Priesthood holder and that it can then be confirmed by the voice of God (doesn't say physical voice, might be spiritual). This sounds more like the Holy Spirit of Promise to me. Anyway, the section clearly teaches this and that what we refer to as the Melchizedek Priesthood, also the high priesthood and greater priesthood, is indeed after the holiest order of God. Walking up to all its promises and blessings is a separate matter, what we would call power in the priesthood, etc. This revelation teaches TWO priesthoods, not three, and does not talk about Patriarchal Priesthood as Denver has. He's pulling that from Joseph's talk about Elias, Elijah, and Messiah, and some other sources, if I remember right. Another point is that the priesthood is connected to and IN the church in all generations, and the offices are necessary appendages. All the talk about a New or now Old Testament church is very strange, given the Lord's own references to church throughout the D&C. Again, the Remnant movement has to re-interpret all these references using a blanket "the Lord must be giving these [wicked] saints what they really wanted, and it wasn't Zion." It's true, they failed, but if you read the history, it sure looks like they tried really hard and got smashed by their neighbors, and possibly on account of polygamy. But I don't know.

[Jesef]

It's not just 3.5 yrs. Its 14+ yrs (counting from 1830). The Lord encouraged the establishing of Zion from the beginning. We are now 180+ yrs on. His mercy has been extended this whole time in giving us a lesser "which ... holdeth the key of the ministering of angels and the preparatory gospel;
Which gospel is the gospel of repentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments"

He in his mercy is extending His arm again, through an unauthorized, wilderness type messenger. It rhymes with what has gone on before.

Because He couldn't use any of those wicked LDS leaders, right? That doesn't make a lick of sense either.

The Saints started settling Nauvoo in 1839. They successfully completed the Kirtland Temple and it was accepted, they still got driven out of Kirtland. D&C 124 was dictated on 19 January 1841, Joseph/Hyrum were killed on 27 June 1844, that's 3 years, 5 months, and 8 days.

You could be right. But it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. And I would expect God to manifest the truth of such a great and salvific work - that He would OWN it. So far I have not seen that. What I do see is lots of spiritual extremism and fanaticism in the movement, as well as divorce and estrangement from family. I'm not naming names, but I know several firsthand. To me it's sad.

[Separatist]

It's not just 3.5 yrs. Its 14+ yrs (counting from 1830). The Lord encouraged the establishing of Zion from the beginning. We are now 180+ yrs on. His mercy has been extended this whole time in giving us a lesser "which ... holdeth the key of the ministering of angels and the preparatory gospel;
Which gospel is the gospel of repentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments"

He in his mercy is extending His arm again, through an unauthorized, wilderness type messenger. It rhymes with what has gone on before.

Because He couldn't use any of those wicked LDS leaders, right? That doesn't make a lick of sense either. I never called them wicked, but He does have a knack for using "unauthorized messengers" See J the Bap

The Saints started settling Nauvoo in 1839. They successfully completed the Kirtland Temple and it was accepted, they still got driven out of Kirtland. D&C 124 was dictated on 19 January 1841, Joseph/Hyrum were killed on 27 June 1844, that's 3 years, 5 months, and 8 days. We haven't had Zion, then or now. But his hand is stretched out still.

You could be right. But it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. And I would expect God to manifest the truth of such a great and salvific work - that He would OWN it. So far I have not seen that. What I do see is lots of spiritual extremism and fanaticism in the movement, as well as divorce and estrangement from family. I'm not naming names, but I know several firsthand. To me it's sad. This is not an argument against it. I've already addressed this in an earlier page. I've seen the same with newly baptized LDS members. It's just people being people.

[Jesef]

Please don't be offended. I'm occasionally sarcastic, but I don't mean anything to be insulting. Separatist, I wish you and yours all the best, truly. I've said this before, and I'll repeat it, I don't KNOW for sure (do you?) - what I'm pointing out is stuff that just seems contradictory and doesn't make sense to me. Denver's advice was "Try to read what I've written as harmonious and consistent. Do not impose conflict, but instead impose consistency and you will find your answers." Well, I'm certainly not going to reread his millions of words. I already put that time in. The realization of conflict and contradiction was there, in the background, the whole time, even though (at one point) I believed his words could very well be legit. But, the final analysis, is only God could verify these outlandish claims and teachings, if they were true. There's no way for us to determine the truth of 170+ years old history that some are claiming has been tampered with - no bloody way. You applications of "patterns" and "types" and "parallels" is not compelling, the same could be done, to disprove your case, for God has worked in sundry ways throughout all time. It's a bit confusing really. I will say this, though, the Denver/Remnant/Preserve movement's portrayal of God is very, very harsh, the way I see it. And Denver's latest says we're all running out of time, in this generation. Time to burn.

[Separatist]

No worries, I'm not offended. I don't begrudge anyone coming to a different conclusion. I think there are opposites and contradictions in most things, and we could argue until we are blue in the face to no avail. Religionists have been doing this for eons. All we can do is be true to ourselves "acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God". I'm trying to be this myself, and acted in sincerity of heart to a message that has resonated with me. In the end, all we can do is encourage each other to be good Christians.

[Jesef]

Yeah, I read ya, man. I don't think religions are ever going to agree on the same hokey-pokey to get to heaven. I'm counting on God and Christ though. I believe the only thing that could unite humanity would be Love, be harmless, be helpful, create peace. The Love of God basically. All this other stuff seems ancillary to me. Anyway, sorry if I've been or come across as a know-it-all jerk ever. I'm sure I have - got myself kicked off that other forum.